AvtoVAZ introduced a new model Lada X-Cross 5, 06.15.2023.
AvtoVAZ presented a new model Lada X-Cross 5 at the SPIEF-2023 site, its production will be launched this week at the former Nissan plant.
Lada X-Cross 5 is a copy of the Chinese crossover FAW Bestune T77. This is a five-door front-wheel drive car with a 1.5-liter petrol turbo engine and a seven-speed robotic gearbox..
According to the company's management, the novelty got its name because of the increased cross-country ability.
The delegation from the UAE said that the car turned out to be very good. One of the forum participants noted that "this car makes him happy".
https://vz.ru/photoreport/1216597/
Russian Auto Industry
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The first Russian production of anti-lock braking systems for AvtoVAZ was launched in Kostroma.
The assembly of the first Russian anti-lock braking (ABS) and anti-skid (ESP) systems for passenger cars was launched at the site of the research and production enterprise (NPP) Itelma in Kostroma, RBC correspondent reports. The start of production was attended by Itelma CEO Alexei Vorobyov, Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade Vasily Shpak and Governor of the Kostroma Region Sergei Sitnikov.
This year it is planned to produce 200-250 thousand of these products, all of them will be supplied to AvtoVAZ, Artur Latypov, deputy technical director of Itelma, told reporters. AvtoVAZ confirmed that Itelma won a "tough tender", the conveyor in Togliatti becomes the anchor customer for ABS blocks produced in Kostroma.
According to Latypov, investments in the project will amount to 1 billion rubles, about half of these funds have now been disbursed. This is Itelma's own money.
“The need to establish domestic production of auto components with deep localization arose even in the context of the component crisis that arose in 2021, and intensified in the context of the stopped supply of ABS / ESP systems from global foreign manufacturers,” the company said.
They also reported that Itelma received a license to conduct a "deep localization" of the production of ABS and ESP systems. This allows you to localize all the components that make up the system, such as an electric motor, electronic components, a case and other necessary components, the report says. At the moment, the degree of localization is 25%, RBC correspondent reports. According to Deputy Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade Vasily Shpak, by 2025-2026 it will be 75%.
https://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/64a7d8699a7947188d4daddc
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Kiko wrote:In Kostroma began to make anti-lock braking systems for AvtoVAZ cars, 07.07.2023.
The first Russian production of anti-lock braking systems for AvtoVAZ was launched in Kostroma.
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The Russian auto industry set off in pursuit of Elon Musk, by Dmitry Skvortsov for VZGLYAD. 08.09.2023.
Acceptance of pre-orders for the first fully domestic passenger electric car has begun.
For the first time in many years, a pre-order for a passenger car completely created in our country, and even an electric one, has been opened in Russia. The electric car "Atom" is already called the Russian "Tesla", but analogies with the failed project "Yo-mobile" of billionaire Prokhorov also suggest themselves. What fate awaits the first primordially Russian modern car in the end?
The restructuring of the Russian automotive industry is taking place in several directions. Some manufacturers have established import substitution of Western-made components. Well, or at least they organized a parallel import of these components or their replacement with analogues made in China or Iran. In addition, Soviet car brands that have not yet been forgotten in Russia are being revived. True, in this case, as a rule, we are talking about putting copies of Chinese cars on the conveyor.
But most importantly, new cars of their own Russian design are beginning to be created. Among passenger cars, this is primarily the Atom electric car, the production of which is promised to begin in 2025. And although the first cars are still far from the assembly line, pre-orders have begun to be accepted on the company's website.
Pre-order examples
Acceptance of pre-orders is at least a controversial move, given the significant number of Russians who remember the widely publicized Yo-Mobile project, which also received pre-orders, and how that project ended.
Pre-orders for Yo-mobile were free. But the pre-order only guaranteed that customers would be notified of the possibility to issue a contract for the purchase of the Yo-mobile when it came to its mass production. In 2011, on the first day of operation of the Yo-Auto website, the number of applications submitted exceeded 50 thousand, and by the end of the first week it had crossed the mark of 100 thousand.
The obvious result of the pre-order campaign is an understanding of the structure of demand for different Yo-Mobile models: 84% of applications were for a crossover, 14% for a minivan, and 2% for a van. But since the closure of the project was announced in 2014, the benefit of this understanding turned out to be zero.
Perhaps the introduction of these pre-orders was Prokhorov's monkeying with Elon Musk with his Tesla. When Musk hosted the 2006 presentation of the prototype of The Roadster, he invited 350 VIPs and hyped media personalities to this presentation (even then-California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger was among the invitees). Guests were asked to take a checkbook with them so that after the test drive, if they liked the car, they could buy it.
Of course, not the prototype that was at the presentation, but the first cars from the assembly line (when it is launched) in an exclusive version with a special plate signed by the leaders of Tesla Motors: Martin Eberhard, Mark Tarpenning and Elon Musk. The price for exclusive cars was set at $100,000.
Respond to a public inquiry
Tesla Motors Elon Musk has become the personification of an alternative to Detroit as a symbol of the American traditional auto industry. By the time The Roadster was introduced, the days of the slogan "what's good for General Motors, it's good for America" were in the 1960s, when the products of the American auto industry, if not already, then at least seemed to be the height of perfection. By the middle of the 2000s, the American auto industry had already largely overcome the problems that it faced in the second half of the 20th century. But he got out, adopting the innovations of European and Japanese auto brands.
New items from BMW and Mercedes, Porsche and Lexus were still prestigious. The domestic auto industry did not cause Americans a sense of pride. At the same time, American IT companies demonstrated success - and it seemed that impressive prospects opened before them.
Elon Musk managed to turn Tesla Motors into a model of the same technological company and make it a promising alternative to the inert Detroit. Plus, the electric car has fallen into the trend of the fight against global warming that has already begun. Moreover, The Roadster allowed the Americans to maintain their commitment to a real car - with high comfort, high dynamic performance and sufficient range for American distances.
Now the mass attitude in Russia to environmental problems has changed somewhat. But not so much that an electric car manufacturer can build a successful marketing strategy on this. Atom, rather, can appeal to global trends. The share of sales of electric vehicles is growing worldwide. Therefore, for someone, the opportunity to transfer to the "transport of the future" can be an argument. But such sentiments will become massive if it becomes really convenient to use electric vehicles.
Who will create the infrastructure?
You can't pour electricity into a canister, you can't pour it out of the tank of another car. Therefore, a network of electrical charging stations is needed.
Elon Musk had to deal with this on his own. And in February 2023, Tesla Motors owned 17,711 charging stations (that is, about 60% of all car chargers in the US). The company also installed about 10,000 slower chargers near houses (so that the car can be charged overnight). The company plans for 2023 to install another 4,000 slow chargers near hotels and restaurants.
In Russia, at the time of the birth of the Yo-mobile, there were no chargers, and Mikhail Prokhorov, apparently, considered that it was too expensive to create them at his own expense. Therefore, the propulsion system of the Yo-mobile had to be made hybrid, which practically nullified the environmental motivation for purchasing this car.
Atom will enter the market in a completely different situation. There are already more than 220 charging stations in Moscow (which are used by about 7,000 car owners). There are 83 charging stations in St. Petersburg and 44 in Nizhny Novgorod.
In the Far East, the first charging stations appeared in 2019. Today, RusHydro, within the framework of the Silk Road project, provided 70% of the route between Moscow and Vladivostok with charging, installing 150 fast EZS in 32 regions. The distance between them is 100-150 km, which allows you to travel safely even on electric vehicles with not very high mileage. In the future, the company plans to increase the number of charging stations to 1,500 by 2035. Most million-plus cities have their own programs for the development of electric charging infrastructure.
Now EZS users are mainly owners of imported electric vehicles (12.4 thousand Nissan Leaf, 3.5 thousand Tesla, 940 Porsche Taycan, 865 Audi and 559 BMW). The number of owners of the Evolute electric car produced in Russia (the Russian version of the Chinese Dongfeng Aeolus E70 electric car assembled in Lipetsk) and the Moskvich 3e electric crossover coming off the assembly line of the Moskvich plant (Chinese JAC Sehol E40X adapted to Russian conditions) is growing.
Business model
Tesla Motors' business model was built more in the style of tech start-ups like Apple than the traditional American auto industry. Tesla Motors has seen impressive growth over the years, but never broke even until 2020. Nevertheless, all the years before Tesla Motors reached the break-even point, the faith of investors in the company's products allowed it to raise more and more money by expanding production, bringing new models to the market, and most importantly, creating a charging infrastructure.
Tesla Motors has gone through the classic path of American technology startups from crowdfunding, through the participation of venture capital funds, IPO and further growth of the shares of a public company. This was the most realistic way for the project, which is an ideological alternative to Detroit (which was also played by Elon Musk at one time).
It is pointless to talk about the Yo-mobile business model. In any case, if Mikhail Prokhorov understood the strategy used by Elon Musk, it was unrealizable in the then Russian conditions: in Russia, venture capital investment was several orders of magnitude less powerful. Therefore, the Yo-Mobile project was a primitive attempt to create a relatively fresh product from available imported cubes - in the hope that it would “come in” to buyers and be able to sell it in quantities sufficient to pay off the investment.
As for Atom, so far we can only make assumptions about its business model. In terms of hardware, the project is based on investments from state corporations (Rostec, Rosatom, Rosseti and their companies). The car will not form the market itself, but will enter it after the already mentioned Evolute, Moskvich 3e and imported models. And here it is important what impression it will make on buyers. Musk has amazed users with a novelty that has never been seen before. Atom will have to compete with models that have already won their fans.
Not only design and technical characteristics are important (but also reliability and price). The developers of Atom tried to form an innovative image of their product at the expense of its IT component. Digitalization can create a fundamentally new level of functionality and comfort, the creators of the electric car say.
The operating system and various applications running under it should become not only fashionable and attractive for buyers "chip" of "Atom". According to the developers of the marketing strategy, due to this, it is planned to receive an additional source of income. “The growth may not come in sales, but in the system of subscriptions to electric vehicles and digital products, as well as in the development of sharing services. JSC "Kama" (manufacturer of "Atom") is actively working with the largest operators in this area. With such a development of the Russian digital product, market growth will be driven by a fundamentally new level of customer experience,” Sergey Nazarenko, Director for Innovative Products of the Research and Development Center of KamAZ PJSC, comments on this aspect.
However, as the example of Tesla Motors and the experience of China show, much will depend on state support for the development of electric transport in Russia.
https://vz.ru/economy/2023/8/9/1224986.html
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It would mean when the batteries die you can just replace the battery modules and keep all your vehicle types.
As technology improves you can get a base with more powerful more efficient electric motors and more efficient cheaper and lighter batteries etc etc.
You could have all sort so chassis... including beach buggy or race car or SUV.
For safety you might want a long range version with a small gas turbine that generates emergency heat and also electricity for a distress beacon or something.
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Well actually you can.
Common sense would say the best way to have car batteries is to have them swapped over at petrol stations, rather than waiting 24 hrs to charge it away from home or wherever. Such a mechanism could be developed to swap batteries in 30 seconds or so. Obviously not on the currently set up cars, but it would be very simply anyway.
Anyway, electic cars are bullshit.
The plan of the WEF is to stop people using power, work and live from home. And "e-socialise" as per the moronic plan of Aspergers "socialiser" Forest Gu... oops Mark Suckaturd.
In Britain, and I'm sure many other places, the electric supply grid simply cant support the massive amount of electricity being transmitted to replace petrol and gas. Its a giant con trick. Electric companies even admit they struggle to serve the up-demand in electric for kettles to make tea after a popular tv programme. (I shit you not, it was on an advert by our own National Grid electric supplier).
Its **** all to do with the environment (or people's health). Its about keeping you locked up at home. While the cocksuckers who run the scam fly round the World on private jets telling us to save energy!
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It is like LPG gas bottles, they don't last forever and after 10 years use they need to be checked and tested by a professional which cost money. Some idiot who swaps LPG bottles instead of getting them refilled will swap old scungy ones for brand new ones and then just refill them till they need a test and then swap them again...
Maybe the solution is electrified roads with metal foil on your tires, sort of the equivalent of an electric tram with electrified rails.
With onboard batteries you could use the road electricity to run and charge your car... perhaps car parks are electrified so your car charges while it is parked.
BTW I was watching this video where a guy was sitting at home working on his computer and out his window you could see this guy (a total stranger) pull up into this guys driveway... unplug the guys power cable to his car and plug his own car in. The guy leans out the window and asks him what the hell he is doing... he says his car is down to 12 percent and he needs to charge it. The guy explains it is his driveway he is parked in, which is not OK, and it is his car he was charging that this guy has now interrupted and that the cable he just plugged into his own car uses this guys electricity. Some people have the biggest balls... the police were called and the guy was arrested for illegal trespass and theft for the electricity.
BTW2 I have heard about problems with car parking buildings because electric cars are heavier than normal cars and some buildings are getting damaged because of the weight.
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So in other words the car owner takes a lease out on a battery rather than purchases it outright, and in return gains the right to swap one for another anywhere he wants. He may end up with a newer or an older one at any one time and that's just the luck of the draw, but they aren't his property so it doesn't matter.
Charging at parking lots or parking spaces is definitely a good idea too.
I don't think electrified roads or anything are necessary. In fact here in Russia they have slowly started to phase out the trolleybuses purely powered by overhead lines, to ones with battery systems in reserve; so that the trolleybus can attach to overhead lines where they're available, but where they're not or there's a problem with them, it can simply detach and lower its prongs and then continue on as an electric bus off its battery until it reaches a section where overhead lines are available again. I'm not sure how well this works in practice as attaching/detaching to overhead lines is typically a manual operation and not a quick one either, but maybe with new robotic mechanisms or prong designs it can be done much quicker and automatically.
Point is though, is that the trend is towards vehicles with autonomous drive. Trolleybuses can be connected to the electric network at certain areas and that's how they charge back up, while electric cars will need to replace their batteries at charging stations but this can be optimized into a quick operation so it's not a big deal. As the capacity of batteries increases with new technologies, electric cars will need to use charging stations less frequently and any sort of electrified road network will turn out to be less necessary too. The cost and size of batteries will go down too, and so the car owner can always fit into the car a spare battery bank as his own property that he can switch to to substitute a depleted company-owned battery on the fly. Trolleybuses and their overhead lines meanwhile will eventually go extinct, replaced entirely by electric buses who have enough autonomy for several routes at a time and whose driver could swap their batteries at terminal stations quickly and easily.
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So in other words the car owner takes a lease out on a battery rather than purchases it outright, and in return gains the right to swap one for another anywhere he wants. He may end up with a newer or an older one at any one time and that's just the luck of the draw, but they aren't his property so it doesn't matter.
The problem there is that you would make money on recharging... what is to stop someone just buying a car with that battery and then in 5 or 10 years when it stops holding a proper charge he takes it in to a charge station and swaps for a newer battery and then just keep using that battery and charging at home and at work... the company that did this with these batteries would need to make sure they can't be removed by the customer or recharged by the customer, otherwise they will just abuse your service to get a newer battery and then stop swapping them and charging them for themselves till they need a new battery and then go in and swap it for a newer battery.
Trolleybuses and their overhead lines meanwhile will eventually go extinct, replaced entirely by electric buses who have enough autonomy for several routes at a time and whose driver could swap their batteries at terminal stations quickly and easily.
Electrified lines or rails still make sense and can be used to charge vehicles and power them at the same time so maybe electrify motorway roads, which would also stop cars from running out of battery power on the motorway... which would be a serious pain in the arse.
Driving from the suburbs to the city on the motorway could boost your charge and when you get to the city you could electrify the roads not just for cars but also mobility scooters and bikes and other electric vehicles.
Last edited by GarryB on Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, electric vehicles are bullshit except for inner city transport. Air quality and what not.
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Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Anyway, electric vehicles are bullshit except for inner city transport. Air quality and what not.
Not really. Technology is shifting rapidly and at some point, electric vehicles will be operable in the remote Tiga regions as well. The Russian electric vehicle industry is very promising. Russia is making monumental progress in making electric vehicles. Look at the new Russian electric cars, they're slick. I am convinced that electric vehicles are the future in Russia, even though regular cars will still be used in vast quantities.
China is currently dominating the market because Jap made a big mistake by betting on hydrogen vehicles instead of electric vehicles. Basically, Jap wanted a monopoly over hydrogen-fueled cars or something but ended up falling behind in electric-powered vehicles.
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It is expensive, it requires a positive s**tload of new construction everywhere, and it will generate a s**tton of waste. That will be a continuous stream of waste, too.
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But money was invested in internal combustion engines and the expensive infrastructure for fuel extraction, processing and distribution was put in place over a long period of time and now it is easier and cheaper, but it isn't really better.
Now money is being invested in electric motors and in batteries... money invested in electric motors is two fold beneficial because you put an electric motor inside a wheel and it acts like a motor to turn the wheel but attach that same electric motor to the drive shaft of a gas turbine or diesel engine and you have a generator that creates electricity... improvements in performance of the motor improves the generator performance too.
Electric motors could be as widespread and even more powerful than internal combustion engines... they just need the investment and development and research that has gone into fossil fuel engines to be spent on them.
Just look at Ion engines for use in space travel...
Infrastructure wont get built until more people are using them and it becomes profitable...
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AVTOTOR announces the start of production of JMC brand cars in the Kaliningrad region
The Kaliningrad automaker AVTOTOR is starting to cooperate with the Chinese company JMC in the field of creating a high-tech production of commercial vehicles.
On August 16, 2023, at the production site of the AVTOTOR plant in the village of Pereslavskoye, Zelenogradsky municipal district of the Kaliningrad region, an official ceremony was held to launch the industrial production of JMC cars.
Preparations for the launch of industrial production were carried out as part of the joint work of AVTOTOR and JMC specialists in accordance with the brand standards and international quality management system standards implemented and in force at all AVTOTOR enterprises. Based on the results of the control audit of finished products following the results of the release of the "pilot batch", the necessary quality indicators were achieved.
The parties signed an Agreement on the launch of industrial production of JMC vehicles at AVTOTOR facilities.
On the conveyor of the plant, the production of 3 models of the brand started at the same time:
- compact urban commercial vehicle Carrying (gross weight 3.5 and 5 tons; wheelbase 3360 mm; chassis length 5900 mm; 2.8-liter turbocharged diesel engine with 109 hp at 3,600 rpm. )
- a universal commercial vehicle Conquer (gross weight 9.4 tons; wheelbase 3815 mm; chassis length 6990 mm; turbocharged diesel engine of the 4th environmental class with a displacement of 2.9 liters with a power of 156 hp at 2800 rpm. / min.)
- Vigus pickup truck (gross weight 2.8 tons; wheelbase 3085 mm; chassis length 5345 mm; turbocharged diesel engine with a displacement of 2.5 liters with a power of 128 hp at 4000 rpm.)
Cooperation between AVTOTOR and JMC provides for the organization of high-tech car production and the creation of conditions necessary to ensure sustainable demand for high-quality automotive products.
Subject to the achievement of project cost-effectiveness indicators, the parties plan to expand cooperation, including the development of a plan to increase production capacity for the production of JMC vehicles and ensure appropriate investments.
The agreement also provides for plans to increase production volumes, increase the level of localization and further deepen production technology in the interests of developing the Russian automotive industry and expanding Russian-Chinese economic cooperation.
Upon reaching the required volume of production, a phased transition to the production of JMC vehicles in a full cycle is envisaged - welding, painting, assembly. Within the framework of the current Cooperation Agreement, the parties are developing a plan for further increasing the added value created in the territory of the Russian Federation, based on the development priorities of the Russian automotive industry.
Commercial vehicles are prepared to be equipped with a wide range of universal and special superstructures, including onboard platforms, vans for various purposes, refrigerators, hydraulic lifts, garbage trucks, tow trucks, etc.
A long-term development plan for the joint project of AVTOTOR and JMC provides for the development of an effective localization program. The parties expect that the involvement of manufacturers of localized auto components in the technological process will help increase the competitiveness of JMC vehicles in the Russian market.
Today, a wide JMC dealer network operates in Russia, which includes about 25 dealer centers in such regions of the Russian Federation as Moscow, St. Petersburg, Sevastopol, Chelyabinsk, Samara, Kaliningrad, Rostov, Novosibirsk, Irkutsk, Sverdlovsk, Volgograd, South - Sakhalin Region, Republic of Tatarstan, Krasnoyarsk, Krasnodar, Stavropol, Primorsky Territories and Minsk Region of the Republic of Belarus.
For reference:
AUTOTOR- one of the leading Russian automakers, the largest manufacturing enterprise in the Kaliningrad region. The company was founded in 1994 in Kaliningrad. The enterprise was the first in Russia to launch the production of cars of foreign brands. Production has been going on since May 1997. It makes a significant contribution to the development of the industrial potential of the region, providing employment for more than 30 thousand people working at the car plant and in related industries. Being the largest commodity producer and taxpayer in the Kaliningrad region, it has a significant impact on the socio-economic development of the region. AVTOTOR works in accordance with international quality management system standards at all stages of production. It occupies a leading position in the industry as an enterprise that provides the production of high-quality products.
Jiangling Motors Corporation (JMC)is part of China's largest state-owned holding Jiangling Motors Corporation Group (JMCG), founded in April 1947 and headquartered in Nanchang, Jiangxi Province. Jiangling Group has 3 production bases, 5 automobile factories, 37 subsidiaries. JMC manufactures high-quality modern vehicles with the support of scientific resources from around the world, including its own research centers. The commercial vehicle and pickup truck factories opened in 2013 and 2021 and are among the most modern and high-tech automotive enterprises in the PRC today. 98% of production processes are automated. Over the past 2 years, 286 technological upgrades have been made after 3 million kilometers of testing.
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Re: Russian Auto Industry
GarryB wrote:The problem there is that you would make money on recharging... what is to stop someone just buying a car with that battery and then in 5 or 10 years when it stops holding a proper charge he takes it in to a charge station and swaps for a newer battery and then just keep using that battery and charging at home and at work...
the company that did this with these batteries would need to make sure they can't be removed by the customer or recharged by the customer, otherwise they will just abuse your service to get a newer battery and then stop swapping them and charging them for themselves till they need a new battery and then go in and swap it for a newer battery.
But why would they do that and lose the convenience of being able to swap batteries, while at the same time losing money over having a lease on a battery so long as compared to simply purchasing their own one outright? The lease price won't be very high, but it's still a subscription and will add up over time.
It will take years of use to wear down a new battery.
Electrified lines or rails still make sense and can be used to charge vehicles and power them at the same time so maybe electrify motorway roads, which would also stop cars from running out of battery power on the motorway... which would be a serious pain in the arse.
Like I said it shouldn't be necessary.
Battery capacity will expand faster than electricity usage by vehicles. Electricity usage in electric cars will probably decrease if anything with more efficient electric circuits and engines. So within a decade or so you might only need to recharge twice a week instead of twice a day.
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caveat emptor wrote:Biggest problem for electric vehicles is a huge gap between energy density of gasoline vs electric battery per unit of mass. Problem of infrastructure is secondary and can be solved if energy density gap is narrowed.
Diesel has a higher energy density than gasoline yet gasoline-powered vehicles are a lot more ubiquitous. Except in heavy trucks and locomotives which need the higher energy density of diesel
Kerosene is more energy dense than either but it's only used for jet-engines
Energy density of fuels are selected for the use-case. No more and no less than what's optimal.
Electric batteries are becoming more efficient, and as they do so they are steadily becoming optimal for most of what people use their cars for - city commutes and inter-city driving along highways. Gasoline has a competitor now in these use-cases, albeit for more marginal ones such as off-road or high-speed leisure cruises it will continue to dominate for some time.
But the trend is towards electric drive anyway. As not only are batteries becoming better, but electric engines weigh a lot less than internal combustion engines, and can probably be made lighter than they are with newer conductive materials and so on. Not only that, but you could have a small electric motor at every wheel, instead of a large combustion engine driving 2 wheels or 4 wheels via a whole bunch of driveshafts, axles, gearboxes, clutches and so on. All of which also pile on the weight.
Who cares if the fuel itself (batteries vs. gasoline) weighs more, in comparison to all that.
We know from Newton's laws that it will take a lot less power to accelerate an object from rest that's half the mass of another object. The same electric engines capable of only giving you 60mph for today's car weight will give you 120mph if you shed all that mechanical weight
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Biggest problem for electric vehicles is a huge gap between energy density of gasoline vs electric battery per unit of mass. Problem of infrastructure is secondary and can be solved if energy density gap is narrowed.
Well another direction to attack the problem from is to use a different type of motor... a hydrogen fuel cell is technically a motor because it uses fuel that is consumed with the operator of the device. Of course it is fully reversable so if you keep the components you can apply an electric charge and put your water back through and end up with hydrogen fuel, but actually using fossil fuels for hydrogen storage is vastly more efficient, but the problem of the carbon deposits seems to be the issue.
Fuel cell technology that can use fossil fuels would allow the existing fossil fuel industry to continue extraction and processing and distribution right down to still buying fuel at fuel stations, but at the end of your journey there might be a cube of carbon you could sell... solid carbon is useful for making carbon fibre or carbon nanotubes... even solid carbon structures are used to make replacement body parts like bone etc or heart valves... or coating metal parts so the body treats them as part of the body and does not try to attack them.
But why would they do that and lose the convenience of being able to swap batteries,
If it is so convenient then why don't cars come with two sets of batteries... one set you keep at home and charge while using the other in the vehicle... when you get home swap them over... never have to wait for your car to charge again.
Battery capacity will expand faster than electricity usage by vehicles. Electricity usage in electric cars will probably decrease if anything with more efficient electric circuits and engines. So within a decade or so you might only need to recharge twice a week instead of twice a day.
Well that sounds nice but in countries where it is dark in the morning when you leave for work and dark when you come home so you have your head lights on all the time you are driving and the heater and possibly the window wipers too... it reduces the promised range very very quickly.
Those graphene batteries that are heat insensitive would allow very high amp charging in a few minutes instead of a few hours, and they are supposed to be much lighter, but there is a long way to go yet.
flamming_python- Posts : 9738
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- Post n°745
Re: Russian Auto Industry
GarryB wrote:If it is so convenient then why don't cars come with two sets of batteries... one set you keep at home and charge while using the other in the vehicle... when you get home swap them over... never have to wait for your car to charge again.
Because that's not convenient at all.
The point is to be able to swap batteries at any charging station, rather than only at home
Besides which car electric batteries don't look much like lead-acid car batteries or the ones in your phone. They're rather a whole bank of bulky batteries situated on the underside of the vehicle typically. They take up a lot of space and weigh a lot altogether, and it will take a while to change them all out. I'm not sure if it's even possible to remove them without lifting the car up first. Maybe instead you can remove them from inside the car after removing some floorboards first, not sure.
Electric car manufacturers can however standardize things just as they did with the fuel inlet, placing their battery banks in the same location, with some slots for machines to latch onto and send commands through to detach whatever single battery and so on. The end result is that charging stations can be fitted with some sort of machinery for swapping a battery bank fitted to the underside of a car, to a new one. And be able to do so pretty quickly. They don't have to swap out every single battery after all, just the ones that are depleted.
Well that sounds nice but in countries where it is dark in the morning when you leave for work and dark when you come home so you have your head lights on all the time you are driving and the heater and possibly the window wipers too... it reduces the promised range very very quickly.
Sounds like Russia for 1/3rd of the year.
But if electric cars can become a success story here than they can become a success anywhere.
Point is that we already have all those systems in normal cars and electric cars anyway, even if sometimes they have to be used more or less. I can't imagine what else they will fit in foreseeable future though to drive up energy requirements. A microwave? One of those food replicators from Star Trek?
Yet car batteries will keep expanding in capacity, electric engines may become more efficient, and electric cars will lower in weight. End result is that the same energy usage will take you a lot further.
caveat emptor- Posts : 2105
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- Post n°746
Re: Russian Auto Industry
I don't have anything to say to your message, except that you're comparing fuels where energy density difference is 10% ( in case of gasoline vs diesel) and roughly 100 times or 10000% ( gasoline vs battery). Not to mention low temperature effects on said density. Perfect solution for Russia and its climate.flamming_python wrote:Diesel has a higher energy density than gasoline yet gasoline-powered vehicles are a lot more ubiquitous. Except in heavy trucks and locomotives which need the higher energy density of diesel
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Dr.Snufflebug- Posts : 1132
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- Post n°747
Re: Russian Auto Industry
Only mildly related, but the riverine transport in Moscow is also going electric. They started on June 20th, with modern electric ferries carrying 80 pax each, and it's already expanded into two routes/lines with 16 "stations" (and 4-5 more on their way). It's more of a touristy/sightseeing thing than practical transport thus far, but the goal is to integrate it with the regular metropolitan system and make it a feasible option when two locations aren't conveniently (involving several changes or whatever) connected by the legacy network.
Back in the day, I remember the Moscow Monorail, that was a failure (cue the Simpsons episode)... This makes way more sense.
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caveat emptor- Posts : 2105
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- Post n°748
Re: Russian Auto Industry
For individual transport from economics point, best solution would still be hybrid vehicles opposed to fully electric.
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Backman- Posts : 2726
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- Post n°749
Re: Russian Auto Industry
Tesla has never sold a car at a profit. And even when it turned a nominal profit, it was due to tax credits https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/31/investing/tesla-profitability/index.html#:~:text=Its%20automotive%20gross%20profit%2C%20which,the%20regulatory%20credits%20sales%20revenue.
FORD IS LOSING $32,000 ON EVERY SALE OF AN EV
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/ford-losses-by-VE-32000/70571/#:~:text=The%20most%20striking%20figure%20is,and%20plug%2Din%20hybrid%20models.
Electric Vehicles Are Draining Billions From Profitable ICE Legacy Automakers
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-vehicles-draining-billions-profitable-162715164.html?guccounter=1
The electric car boom was built on ponzi finance. Companies could sell EVs at a loss and book the sale, grow their revenue which would attract more buyers to their stock. Their stock would rise , they'd use the equity to build and sell more cars, which grows revenue ect ect.
Internal combustion engine sales is also covering the cost of loss making electrics
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kvs- Posts : 15949
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- Post n°750
Re: Russian Auto Industry
stagnant. Any replacement to the Lithium-ion tech will have an amp-hour to mass ratio that will be almost the same. In fact,
the fuss is about batteries becoming cheaper and this includes the hyped sodium ion tech. We just have the cost drop of batteries
that is predictable from economies of scale in production.