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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:44 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Here is the link from HAL where they talk about their products including forthcoming ones

    http://www.hal-india.com/futureproducts/products.asp

    You will notice that there is no mention of any AMCA / MCA what ever.
    That HAL website is missing some other things as well. Where is MMRCA project? Sure they mention Mirage upgrade but no MMRCA?

    DRDO has been continuously criticized by CAG and media for not being able to meet the requirements of the Armed Forces. Nowhere is this more evident than in the design and development of Ballistic missiles .
    Which department in India hasn't been criticized by CAG, which is fine BTW. Regarding media, they are joke mostly but do have a few good days. Twisted Evil
    I am somewhat satisfied as far as development of Ballistic missiles go. There have been issues with production quality control. You have to agree Indian R & D budgets are quite low, which don't help either.

    Did they put a timeline as to when this will be included in the IAF . No, coz even they do not know that .
    Even if they put a time line on that who is going to take them seriously anyway? Very Happy

    Obviously , if they say 25-30 yrs from now we will need a 6th gen aircraft and this is one of those maybe we will still accept it albeit with a spoon of salt .
    Frankly speaking this generation classification is pretty useless. And we will be operating Mig-21 versions upto 2017. Nothing wrong even if AMCA comes in after 20 years IMO. And look at this news BTW

    Plans for Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft Source: http://www.hindu.com/2010/11/21/stories/2010112165812200.htm
    The government released Rs. 100 crore last month to the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which will spearhead the project, to prepare feasibility studies in 18 months. The ADA is an autonomous organisation under the Ministry of Defence.
    The entire project would cost $ 2 billion.
    $ 2 bil for AMCA project? For some reason I can already feel it is going to be over budget, unless heavy inputs are used from FGFA project. I am pretty confident a prototype of AMCA will fly sometime in next decade, if things keep on moving smoothly. How successful it will be is different question.



    Last edited by Corrosion on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:28 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:54 pm

    gloriousfatherland, I agree somewhat with your post. What works in theory doesn't mean will work in real world.

    Over-Engineering can have bad side effects. Look at F-22 Twisted Evil
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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:04 pm

    The video mentions that first F-117 was produced in 1982. That time Reagan was in power and a dozen of F-117 could have penetrated any airspace and launched initial strike. But that time US had no BMDs and were working on them in the form of Star Wars. By end of 80s, it was all over but one mistake was made. Instead of following Chinese model, Russia tried to change the course by 180 degrees and rest is history.

    I have heard that Torsion Field Theory and Research was also given away cheaply by Russia to the west.

    Btw, the above video proved that in 1980s-90s while aerodynamics was important but stealth proved to be more valuable. However, with now Russia soon fielding Pakfa, the aerodynamic features will hold equal value.

    Btw, US soon coming up with stealth ship for the Navy, cost $7B a piece. Touch this darling with your missiles and you have destroyed nearly two aircraft carriers.

    http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/5476
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:21 am

    The backside cameras fed the picture to the front side screen and thus making the object invisible to common human eye. Do not know if such techs are in advanced stages now, the TV show was like 2-3 years ago.

    You have to keep in mind that it doesn't need to be perfect like a Klingon cloaking device, or a predators cloaking device... just generating a rough colour pattern matching roughly the colours behind the target would be enough to make it hard to see and hard to identify.

    I will NEVER rely on Western sources to get my information about Russia , India , China , rest of Asia. There reporting about Russia and Asia is inevitably sub standard

    It is a sad reflection of the western news media but I agree... and I don't blame all the reporters... most of the ones that live in the east and actually understand the Russians/Indians/Chinese etc don't file crap reports, but the editors don't want to hear anything positive from these regions, and the management have an agenda that must be met.

    Sujoy, why would they display its models and brochures at Aero India 2011...if it was a dead project.

    Perhaps a bit like the Mig Skat... if a foreign country had approached Mig and said they will fund development... say China or Iran or even India then despite the lack of interest from the Russian military, the chance that the program would be fully funded means it would go ahead.

    Without funding Mig has to decide whether to invest its tight funds into a program that no one might be interested in, or shelve it... in other words they are going to shelve it.

    The cloak would create a gap in space-time which would hide whatever needs to be hidden."

    If we could bend space time then it wouldn't take months or years to reach other planets... we really don't understand what spacetime is made of let alone being in a position to distort spacetime... apart from the obvious putting lead into a very big pile. (Matter distorts spacetime).

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    Post  victor7 Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:28 pm

    Btw, with quantum computing just around the corner, be ready for many more inventions that are mind boggling. Quantum computing can right away give rise to robots that function with advanced features. Lots of DNA based medical research will also become available.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:12 am

    In the 1950s nuclear power was new and most people thought that in the 1980s we'd have bases on the moon and commercial aircraft that can fly at mach 8 and lasers and everything would be nuclear powered.

    The future is actually very hard to predict... for all we know some idiot might invent a nanobot robot that can replicate it self and destroys brain cells that wipes out all life on planet earth.

    Those same people today write computer viruses for fun...
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    Post  victor7 Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:46 am

    Btw, how is the radar capabilities of S-300 different from those of S-400.

    S-300: Detects stealth at 150 NM and 15-20 NM in jamming environment
    S-400: Detects stealth at 400 NM and 60 NM in jamming environment

    Similarly, S-500 would have ranges like 3000 NM.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:22 pm

    You do realise the Russians have the R-27P and R-27EP in operational service and have had for decades?

    That is distinct from the R-27R and R-27ER SARH models which are even older.

    The P models use passive radar homing and guide towards two main types of targets... aircraft guiding SARH missiles which requires a continuous beam, or aircraft using a jammer.

    The R-27EP has a range of over 100kms and is totally passive.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:34 pm

    Wait i thought the F-22 cant use AG weapons effectively and is purely an air to air fighter so this discussion about F-22 bombing russia is invalid I suppose?
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:05 pm

    It has SDB capability doesn't it?
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    Post  medo Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:40 am

    F-22 could carry SDBs. But to be stealth it have to carry them in weapon bays. So when it have SDBs, it could not have AAMs, or have half bays for AAMs and half for SDBs and this is reduction in numbers. Smaller number of SDBs means that protecting SHORADs could easier deal with treat and S-400 or BUK could easier engage F-22 in longer distance. Smaller number of AAMs means it could not be too long in enemy air space. If it have only two AMRAAMs, other are SDBs, it is very important that both missiles hit the target. If they miss, F-22 is than easy target for Flankers.
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    Post  Viktor Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:34 pm

    medo wrote: F-22 is than easy target for Flankers.

    SDB are gliding bombs and as such are easy targets for Russian airdefense.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:26 am

    It is like discussions about US carrier groups... on the one hand they never emit any signal and are impossible to locate, and on the other they can detect any and all threats and engage them at maximum range.

    By the same magic the F-22 and F-35 can see all and kill all at maximum range.

    Of course Pantsir-S1 and TOR systems have been designed specifically to engage air launched weapons aimed at SAM sites and it is assumed that with NEBO-M that F-22s will no longer be invisible elusive super planes they once were.

    Against Iran or Libya the F-22 is a serious threat... but then so is the F-15E... the F-15E is much better armed and much much cheaper to buy and operate.
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    Post  Vann7 Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:27 pm

    victor7 wrote:Hello All and Greetings,

    I am new to this site and forum. It seems it is a fairly intense site for military matters and weapons discussions (my new hobby btw).

    The question that I have and more so given my limited knowledge is:

    Is Russia safe from F22 Raptor? I have heard that S-400 can detect and track F22 but only from 50Kms or so. This means F22 can sneak into the territory and launch its missiles with ranges of 120km or drop its JDAM type bombs on various sites and get away. Currently S-400s are only deployed around Moscow, does that mean F22 can have a free ride in the rest of RF or S-300 can also detect and track it.

    Also, it was quite a scare to know that a squadron of F22s can destroy a major chunk of other airforces. I mean 145 to 0 kill ratios vrs F15s and F16s types in USAF simulation.

    What is happening around? Some sort of Technology leap? Is that why US has become so belligerent recently in middle east and area.

    Cheers!

    Victor

    Old discussion ..but anyway.
    I don't think F22 or B1 will have any chance to get anywhere close Russia territories without being detected. will not be able to hide from modern S-300PMU2 or S-400s using ultra sensitive three dimensional radars. Even in the case that the F-22 was as 'stealth' for radars as fans on fotums claim..ie ~60km detection in S-400. You forget about the networking capabilities of the system. So using the best hoped claims.. if you have 10 S-400s radars in network ,you will be able to cover an area of 10x 60km = 600km range. Monitoring planes and warships also share information..so pretty much it will be no problem to detect an F-22 as far as you want it.. 3,000km ,5,000km away of Russian borders if you have the planes or warships positioned in the right place. F-22 will have a better chance to at least try an S-400/s-300 system defense in a third world country without modern airforce or navy. still you will have the issue of triangulation of radars which increase significantly the detection of low observable planes. Another issue F-22 will need to face is close range artillery like pantsyrs. this are even more deadly since you cannot evade artillery attack. Any F22 trying to enter heavily defended territory will need help from AWACS to know where to fly avoiding radars or close range artillery.to face first layers of close range defense first..with optical heat sensors that will spot the F-22 without problems at 30km. so in order to defeat an S-300/400 you need to first counter very deadly close range defenses..that could operate even if the radar see nothing. The most ideal place for an F-22 to fight is away of any territory with heavy system defenses , because its stealth advantages are more effective against planes in open airspace. i think against S-300s/400 is much more lethal to use cruise missiles with 1,000km range in the many hundreds to overwhelm a system defens.specially if they all fired nearly at the same time through many warships and submarines. In practice in areal war..lets say against IRAN with S-300/S-400s. Any use of F-22 will only come ,after NATO have defeated their S-300s with cruise missiles. The believe that you can sneak undetected very deep inside of any enemy territory with decent air defenses with a first strike in an F-22 is fantasy at best.It will be shot down easily by any Pantsysr system ,that do not need radio signals to shot down an F22 since its Optic IR sensors that for sure have ,will lock the F-22.

    promo movie done by the same company that makes s-300s/S-400s claim they defeat next gen Unmanned bombers not yet in service by USAF.

    https://youtu.be/1GcAUaLrPNU
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    Post  Russian Patriot Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:06 am

    Now on topic : F-22 problems :http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/10/f-22-raptor-pilots-make-problems-public/
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:44 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Now on topic : F-22 problems :http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/10/f-22-raptor-pilots-make-problems-public/

    And that's not where it ends .

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/115543547/F22-analysis

    This analysis clearly shows that the F 22 will fail to deliver at crucial junctures.
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    Post  Vann7 Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:07 pm

    F-22 or any other stealth plane have no chance vs advanced modern radars that see through stealth.
    Even the Su-35 will have no problem to detect it at over 100km range according to Sukhoi engineers data. Using its advanced thermal sensors or its Ibis-E radars. S-400 will detect it even easier at ranges far beyond the F-22 weapons and radar range.Just like F-117 was ,Stealth technology is greatly overrated.. It is good to always have it ,but will become from zero to very little advantage over heavily defended territories with modern S-300s and 4th ++ Generations combat planes using AESA radars and next generation thermal optics.F-22 used stealth technology is a technology developed in the mid 80's near 2 decades old since its design was finalized and much more modern and sensitive radars have been developed since then , today. F-22 Looks like a repetition of the F-117 undetectable myth all over again. Until was shot down with old soviet defense system.

    The question of how far F-22 can be tracked with RUssia defense systems is about the same to ask about how far Russian bombers can fly in the air. As much as they want it. Russia Biggest early radar systems ,Voronezh radars ,are huge buildings that are designed to track all europe airspace and any ballistic missile ,civilian or military plane from russia territory with an accuracy of couple of meters. The radar range is 6,000km. Lets see what Sources from Russia Defense ministry have said about their Voronezh Radar station.


    “Every civilian or military object, be it airborne or on the ground, uses various systems emitting radio waves. It could be radar stations, communication systems, navigation GPS and GLONASS complexes, radio altimeters etc. Aircrafts have thermal and other sorts of wave emissions. The principles of physics cannot be escaped, even by American stealth B2 and F22 military aircraft. The task of MIIS is to spot such emissions, get exact coordinates and track the movement,”

    “Because the MIIS only monitors the space, it does not emit waves itself, therefore the enemy won’t know it has been spotted,”


    http://rt.com/news/russia-new-surveillance-system-974/

    You can see a map here in wiki of Russia massive defense systems Voronezh
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronezh_radar

    Nearly all Russia save from any 5th /6th generation 'Stealth' planes unless they fly over the north pole where Russia don't have modern radars or the uninhabited russian islands that are close to alaska. Something to notice is that If the F-22 (or also B-2) was so good it will have never been canceled for being 'too expensive', since having air superiority to fly undetected on any enemy territory have no price. They could have done a lot of things to keep price lower like selling it to super allies , like buying less submarines or warships that already they have too many.Virginia class submarines for example cost a billion each and they still continue developing them ,even though they only useful as a deterrence force. Aircraft carriers which are infinitively more expensive US developing 3 more, US give away for free more than 10 billion each year in foreign aid. So the cancellation of the F-22 for money issues makes no sense.F-22 have some issues that could have been fixed but still was canceled its production. Reality was Pentagon found it makes no sense to make more stealth planes if they don't offer a significant advantage over mas produced modern combat planes of the competition in the market.

    https://youtu.be/ITbGBmaqQkk
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    Post  Austin Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:23 pm

    What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/
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    Post  medo Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:29 pm

    Austin wrote:What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/

    It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.
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    Post  medo Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:32 pm

    Podsolnuh is smaller OTH radar and as I know, some of them are already operational in Far East and in Black Sea.
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    Post  Austin Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:39 pm

    medo wrote:It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.

    RAM plays a very small role in LO of an aircraft since RAM tends to be band specific and there is a limit to how much thick coating of RAM can be applies to Stealth Aircraft.

    The Key is Shaping , Dr Carlo Kopp once told me that B-2 can defeat any known radar due to its shape even a 30 m wavelength radar cant detect a B-2 and that purely because of its shaping.
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:14 pm

    medo wrote:
    Austin wrote:What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/

    It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.
    actually the wave bounces back ,it goes the same path twice ,so the thickness can be half the wavelength , eg. 0,5m.
    No they werent and their detection was much reduced- for old Neva was at 25ish kilometers ,it took some time to get a lock and fire 2 missiles ,one missed but second broke the wing and destroyed f-117 just withing missile engagement envelope at 15km distance and 8km height.
    The sam crew wouldnt dare to engage for so long, if the nighthawk had wildweasel supports nearby.


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    Post  Russian Patriot Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:16 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Austin wrote:What Kind of Radar are they talking about operating in 10 m wavelength ? Can such radar detect Stealth Aircraft of B-2 types ?

    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar
    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/06/10/rls/

    It's over the horizont radar, which is usually in metric wave (low frequency), that it waves could use ionosphere to follow the Earth curve. And yes, they could easily detect stealth planes, because non have 1 meter thick RAM cover, that is why stealth F-117 and B-2 were easily seen on old Soviet VHF radars.
    actually the wave bounces back ,it goes the same path twice ,so the thickness can be half the wavelength , eg. 0,5m.
    No they werent and their detection was much reduced- for old Neva was at 25ish kilometers ,it took some time to get a lock and fire 2 missiles ,one missed but second broke the wing and destroyed f-117 just withing missile engagement envelope at 15km distance and 8km height.

    Link proving this?
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    Post  medo Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:08 pm

    http://congressionalresearch.com/RL30639/document.php

    This report show, that F-117 in Serbia was lost, because its EA-6B escort was not properly near. Both F-117 and B-2 in 1999 war use EW SEAD escort and Serbia have only ancient SAM-2, SAM-3 and SAM-6. Newer radars created with stealth in mind could even easier see stealth planes and with much better ECCM capabilities track and shoot on stealth planes.
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    Post  Vann7 Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:18 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:

    Your link explain how RADAR work for detecting NEARBY asteroid !!

    Its the same process for everything. Planets ,stars ,comets,planes.What changes is the configuration of radars and way of doing it. You need First to know the position of your target by sending a signal and measuring the time it takes to bounce back. Radio telescope designed to concentrate its focus in a particular place in galaxy while Military Radars designed to cover wider areas at the same time in country airspace. When radars pointing upwards they can observe Stars ,when pointing downwards they can be used to observe weather.When Pointing horizontally they can observe air traffic inside and outside their airspace.

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