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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:25 pm

    The US seems to overlook two points while making its 'expensive' foreign policies vis-a-vis Russia.

    a) Russia is not going back to communism of any sort. Russia aims for social democracy on the lines of France or Scandinavian countries where there is free health care and some social support nest for really vulnerable sections of the society like handicapped or ill and out of job or temporarily out of work etc. US has the same types of programs in place now.

    b) Russia does not look to destroy or the destruction of the US in any shape.......unless ofcouse US attacks Russia and jumps into the suicidal campaign of stupidity. Russians have general appreciation and even admiration for the US and are basically friendly and warm hearted folks.

    US is wasting its resources for nothing and in turn hurting its own best interests i.e. its economy and hence the daily of lives of its people.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:05 am

    Very good post with very good points Victor... the Russians can be a friend or an enemy... and if the US keeps going down the path it is going it will become tired of putting up with American BS and will become an enemy.

    The US is blowing a real opportunity because as bad an enemy as they could be they could be a very powerful and useful ally following a different path and it is not like they have to sell their morals and deal with a communist country to do it either. In fact they already did that with the Chinese so they clearly have no problem.

    I guess it is like Sunni muslims and Shia muslims treating each other worse than they would treat a non believer.
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    Post  TheArmenian Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:16 am

    GarryB wrote:I guess it is like Sunni muslims and Shia muslims treating each other worse than they would treat a non believer.

    Garry, that is the truth.
    Foreign powers are currently maximizing their exploitation of that fact
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    Post  gloriousfatherland Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:27 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I guess it is like Sunni muslims and Shia muslims treating each other worse than they would treat a non believer.

    Garry, that is the truth.
    Foreign powers are currently maximizing their exploitation of that fact

    They call it managed chaos Smile....The US did the same to Iran and Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war....What a shame...Thats the reason why the middle east will be always "colonised" by foreigners thousands of miles away.The people like it that way...
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:16 pm

    The F22 was designed from the onset to defeat enemy fighters in a BVR contest . However, here is the thing .BVR and WVR combat are much alike, insofar as during the engagement endgame the fighter under attack is within tracking range of the weapon fire control system and where possible the weapon or fire control element should be defeated kinematically. This is exactly where the PAK FA has a huge advantage over the F22 .

    A number of countries that Do Not and Will Not have access to the PAK FA have begun to realize that they have no fighter aircrafts in their inventory that can match the PAK FA. At this point, the PAK FA outdoes its western counterpart/s in terms of speed, maneuverability, sight range, lifting capacity, and even radar evasion.

    The limited optical visibility, of the PAK FA is largely attributed to the use of metamaterials and so-called “e-camouflage” in the more recent versions of the PAK FA. The negative refraction index of metamaterials makes them an ideal means for camouflaging military targets, as they cannot be discovered by radio reconnaissance equipment within a certain range of frequencies. Using this technology, on-board cameras record everything surrounding the aircraft, in real time mode. Supercomputers and metamaterials allow the cameras to project the image on to the aircraft’s surface, making it invisible.

    Meanwhile the development of Kh-35UE (AS-20 Kayak), Kh-38ME, Kh-58UShKE (AS-11 Kilter), and RVV-MD (AA-11 Archer) class missiles for the PAK FA will be completed by the end of this year or early next year .

    Russia may therefore choose to equip a BVR missile with one of several different semi-active radar homing, active radar homing, infrared-homing or passive X-band anti-radiation homing seekers. The missile might be using one of several possible airframes or derivatives, with diverse kinematic performance
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    Post  victor7 Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:37 pm

    At this point, the PAK FA outdoes its western counterpart/s in terms of speed, maneuverability, sight range, lifting capacity, and even radar evasion.

    Yes on maneurverability, lifting capacity, better missiles, distance range
    No on radar evasion, radar sophistication, supercruise

    The invisibility logic that you mentioned is in progress but not heard of that on PakFa or even F22 yet.


    It seems with such techs around the corner, the jets will start employing missiles which are stealth, irst invisible, optical invisible. Making IRST and Optical invisible is already available for ground machines. Even if missiles turn out to be not round but square with flat panels that make it heavy and reduce the speed from Mach 4 and around to only Mach 2, if the opposing pilot does not see it coming on any of his onboard gadgets then this missile can only be defended by jammers or periodic or random bursts of direct energy and lasers.

    Russia and allies better bets are to be able to defeat stealth by radar or other sensors. Right now they are only able to play catch up of sorts.
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:23 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    At this point, the PAK FA outdoes its western counterpart/s in terms of speed, maneuverability, sight range, lifting capacity, and even radar evasion.

    Yes on maneurverability, lifting capacity, better missiles, distance range
    No on radar evasion, radar sophistication, supercruise

    The invisibility logic that you mentioned is in progress but not heard of that on PakFa or even F22 yet.


    It seems with such techs around the corner, the jets will start employing missiles which are stealth, irst invisible, optical invisible. Making IRST and Optical invisible is already available for ground machines. Even if missiles turn out to be not round but square with flat panels that make it heavy and reduce the speed from Mach 4 and around to only Mach 2, if the opposing pilot does not see it coming on any of his onboard gadgets then this missile can only be defended by jammers or periodic or random bursts of direct energy and lasers.



    Russia and allies better bets are to be able to defeat stealth by radar or other sensors. Right now they are only able to play catch up of sorts.

    My friend , this logic has already been successfully implemented on India's Su 30 MKI , now re-christened as Super Sukhoi . Now bear in mind that unlike the PAK FA the SU 30 MKI was not conceived as a Stealth fighter . In spite of this the "invisibility logic" is working wonders .


    Sukhois carry between 10-12 Beyond Visual Range ( BVR) missiles so they can fire more than three or four round Beyond Visual Range missile salvo during the opening stages of an engagement. In this manner the aircraft being targeted will face a difficult problem as it must jam, decoy and/or outmanoeuvre three or four tightly spaced inbound missiles. The basic aerodynamic act of the SU 30 MKI and the PAK FA is without precedent. In military thrust setting the PAK FA could cover the whole afterburning performance envelope of the F-15 , Typhoon or Rafael .


    Ever heard of Pentagon's " Operation Chimichanga " . Long story short , the end result of this exercise was that F 22s were shot down over enemy territory every time they tried to carry out the dual role of emptying 250 lbs SDBs and thereafter trying to shoot enemy aircrafts with AMRAAM and Sidewinders . Therefore they had to call in F 16s to fire their own air to air missiles.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:16 pm

    Here is an article on Op ChimiChanga

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/air-force-stealth-strike/

    Where does it say that F22s got shot down and F16s had to come to their rescue? Where?
    Bombing was mainly done by B1s. Why do you try to twist the facts? Just to deceive yourself and others and put lots of lives in danger.

    I do not really care about the aerodynamics of any plane as it will not be able to detect F22s unless very near. For now missiles do not tend to beat the IRST detection so that is some hope to kill off whatever is launched. Down the road be ready for stealth missiles which are invisible to both optics and infrared detection.

    Regarding 'invisible' Super Sukhoi, there is no such thing. All upgrades on Su-MKIs are regarding AESA radar and OLS system. Google mentions that Indians are working on 5th Generation stealth type plane in addition to Pakfa project with Russia.

    Why are you throwing lies and wrong facts? That does not help at all!!
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:51 pm

    victor7 wrote:Here is an article on Op ChimiChanga

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/air-force-stealth-strike/

    Where does it say that F22s got shot down and F16s had to come to their rescue? Where?
    Bombing was mainly done by B1s. Why do you try to twist the facts? Just to deceive yourself and others and put lots of lives in danger.

    I do not really care about the aerodynamics of any plane as it will not be able to detect F22s unless very near. For now missiles do not tend to beat the IRST detection so that is some hope to kill off whatever is launched. Down the road be ready for stealth missiles which are invisible to both optics and infrared detection.

    Regarding 'invisible' Super Sukhoi, there is no such thing. All upgrades on Su-MKIs are regarding AESA radar and OLS system. Google mentions that Indians are working on 5th Generation stealth type plane in addition to Pakfa project with Russia.

    Why are you throwing lies and wrong facts? That does not help at all!!

    It seems you have a penchant for the theatrics . No wonder your arguments are based on loose self talk. If wired.com was manna from heaven , Julian Assange would have been selling oranges on the freeway .

    You do not care about the aerodynamics of any plane . Good for you , maybe you will be better of flying kites . You think the Americans spend billions of dollars for nothing,in making the F 22 super manoeuvrable if stealth was enough for survivable ?

    Google also mentions that today's tsunami was caused by China's oil exploration in the South China sea , so you believe that as well , since Google is your holy grail for information .

    "Indians are working on 5th Generation stealth type plane in addition to Pakfa project with Russia"

    Really , that's news for a country that couldn't design an engine for a 4th generation aircraft .

    BTW - Who allowed you near a keyboard ..... ?
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    Post  TR1 Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:23 pm

    victor7 wrote:

    I do not really care about the aerodynamics of any plane as it will not be able to detect F22s unless very near. !

    Oh dear lord.

    This conversation just got really stupid.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:39 pm

    If wired.com was manna from heaven , Julian Assange would have been selling oranges on the freeway .

    Wired.com is no-nonsense site for fairly upto date defense news. Who are you to post some 'event' and not back it with a link or actual established source. In one stupid sentence you have thrown out F22s capabilities out the window it seems. Glad you are not in the defense planning circles or such conclusion can result in immense damage to all men, machines and material.

    Make the plane as much aerodynamic as you want, it will not help if missile from F22 has finished it off from 120 Kms. First priority is stealth. Aerodynamic focus should be more on legacy jets.

    Here is a link on the side project of Indian government which is in addition to Pakfa with Russia.
    http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.asp?get=old&id=378

    I just did the Google on it, so it seems Google has some creditability..... Very Happy Very Happy

    Btw, TR1........better post some logical and factual arguments backed by formal links or so. Chuckling and giggling small sentences like girls will not impress much........at least on this forum.

    ps: O Dear Lord!!!!!
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:09 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    If wired.com was manna from heaven , Julian Assange would have been selling oranges on the freeway .

    Wired.com is no-nonsense site for fairly upto date defense news. Who are you to post some 'event' and not back it with a link or actual established source. In one stupid sentence you have thrown out F22s capabilities out the window it seems. Glad you are not in the defense planning circles or such conclusion can result in immense damage to all men, machines and material.

    Make the plane as much aerodynamic as you want, it will not help if missile from F22 has finished it off from 120 Kms. First priority is stealth. Aerodynamic focus should be more on legacy jets.

    Here is a link on the side project of Indian government which is in addition to Pakfa with Russia.
    http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.asp?get=old&id=378

    I just did the Google on it, so it seems Google has some creditability..... Very Happy Very Happy

    Btw, TR1........better post some logical and factual arguments backed by formal links or so. Chuckling and giggling small sentences like girls will not impress much........at least on this forum.

    ps: O Dear Lord!!!!!


    You must have recently suffered a blow to your head and so sites like Wired.com and defencenews will be in business for the foreseeable future .

    The editor-in-chief of Wired.com had fallen into a controversy in the recent past over alleged plagiarism after it was discovered that passages of his forthcoming book bear an uncanny resemblance to entries to the online encyclopaedia Wikipedia.

    Here is the link from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited . Indian Govt's flagship company for producing fighter aircrafts.


    http://www.hal-india.com/futureproducts/products.asp

    Scroll down . You will see for yourself that it is clearly stated that FGFA ( aka PAK FA / T 50 ) is being co developed with Russia's Sukhoi Design Bureau . As I said , India is NOT developing any 5th gen / stealth aircraft itself . The names PAK FA or FGFA or T 50 are used interchangeably .

    Now coming to your F 22 . It is an expensive model of blandness.Western, in particular American, weapons are treated as corporate crown jewels. Since they bring in profits to the companies, who often have politicians in their pocket, they are too big to fail even if they are ineffectual in war or outdated. This as we all know , except for you of course , is known as pork.

    Winslow T. Wheeler and Pierre M. Sprey are two of America's finest defense analyst . This is what they said to the Senate ( link below ) , since you are so fond of links .

    http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=4527

    Stealth technology is not an American invention. The entire idea, concept and theory of stealth aircraft was fully developed in Russia years before the Americans came to know about it.

    The reason why Moscow did not go ahead with development of a stealth bomber was simply because IT WASN'T NEEDED. Russian plans to attack the continental United States involved strategic Tupolev-160 Blackjack bombers coming in over the North Pole and firing nuclear-tipped cruise missiles at American cities from international airspace.

    On the other hand, Russia’s cities are deep inside the territory of its vast Eurasian landmass. But more crucially the Soviet Union, which was obsessed with security because of the Nazi invasion, had deployed no less than 30,000 surface-to-air missiles to defend against invading aircraft and cruise missiles. Apparently ,nothing less than a stealth aircraft could penetrate these defences according to Western analysts ( and prospective Hollywood script writers like you ) .




    FGFA[img][/img]


    Last edited by Sujoy on Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:18 pm

    Below is the paragraph from the linked article of defensenews.com

    Now if this information is wrong then it is wrong..........I have no means to confirm or deny it.


    The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), formerly known as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA), is a twin-engined 5th generation stealth multirole fighter being developed by India. It will complement the HAL Tejas, the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA, the Sukhoi Su-30MKI and the as yet undecided MRCA in the Indian Air Force. The main purpose of this aircraft is to replace the aging SEPECAT Jaguar & Dassault Mirage 2000.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:50 pm

    Stealth technology is not an American invention. The entire idea, concept and theory of stealth aircraft was fully developed in Russia years before the Americans came to know about it.

    The basic concept of stealth i.e. reflection of radar waves away from the source was developed by Russian Peter Ufimtsev. However, his research was not welcomed for either defense or civilian uses. He felt disgraced and defected to the US.

    Folks from Lockheed and other companies read his papers and then joined together to develop Stealth B2 bomber and F-117.

    Russia still does not have a stealth plane to its name. Sad but true. Former USSR was the fountain of advanced research and knowledge and little Gorby and drunk Yeltsin destroyed that all easily.
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    Post  TR1 Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:24 pm

    What isn't impressive Victor, is your child like obsession with F-22 detection range. Aviation is NUMBER ONE hinging on aerodynamics. Your comment regarding that, was.....much like this thread. Devoid of any sense.
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    Post  TR1 Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:28 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    Stealth technology is not an American invention. The entire idea, concept and theory of stealth aircraft was fully developed in Russia years before the Americans came to know about it.

    The basic concept of stealth i.e. reflection of radar waves away from the source was developed by Russian Peter Ufimtsev. However, his research was not welcomed for either defense or civilian uses. He felt disgraced and defected to the US.

    Folks from Lockheed and other companies read his papers and then joined together to develop Stealth B2 bomber and F-117.

    Russia still does not have a stealth plane to its name. Sad but true. Former USSR was the fountain of advanced research and knowledge and little Gorby and drunk Yeltsin destroyed that all easily.

    Yfimtsev was invited to work in the US post 1990. Hardly a defection.

    The US still doesn't have a supersonic ASM missile to its name. Does that make it impossible for it to create one?

    RCS studies are well documented in post Soviet Russia, ignoring that is silly.
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    Post  Corrosion Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:53 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    The limited optical visibility, of the PAK FA is largely attributed to the use of metamaterials and so-called “e-camouflage” in the more recent versions of the PAK FA. The negative refraction index of metamaterials makes them an ideal means for camouflaging military targets, as they cannot be discovered by radio reconnaissance equipment within a certain range of frequencies. Using this technology, on-board cameras record everything surrounding the aircraft, in real time mode. Supercomputers and metamaterials allow the cameras to project the image on to the aircraft’s surface, making it invisible.
    Do you any more info on this? This is the first time I am hearing that any such tech is being developed for PAK-FA.

    BTW, AMCA project exists. Which will be a medium sized "Stealth" fighter. You can argue, as its progress is unknown but there is certainly a plan to make one.
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    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:23 am

    Do you any more info on this? This is the first time I am hearing that any such tech is being developed for PAK-FA.

    Do your own research before taking any facts posted by the gentleman......he tends to twist the facts a little. Once I saw on TV that Japanese scientist had developed an invisibility cloak where on a square panel one side had cameras and other side had screens. The backside cameras fed the picture to the front side screen and thus making the object invisible to common human eye. Do not know if such techs are in advanced stages now, the TV show was like 2-3 years ago.


    BTW, AMCA project exists. Which will be a medium sized "Stealth" fighter. You can argue, as its progress is unknown but there is certainly a plan to make one.

    Thanks for the confirmation. It does make sense. Indians spent $10-12B on Rafael with full technology transfer agreement. Plus they are working with Russia for PakFa. So with two huge tech inputs, why not work on a project of own and come up with something even in the decent category.
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:37 am

    victor7 wrote:Once I saw on TV that Japanese scientist had developed an invisibility cloak where on a square panel one side had cameras and other side had screens. The backside cameras fed the picture to the front side screen and thus making the object invisible to common human eye. Do not know if such techs are in advanced stages now, the TV show was like 2-3 years ago.
    It is definitely possible from a technical point of view. It can be easily done in a lab setting. In fact you can do it in your home with some success if you have a good 42" border-less screen, a good video camera and a innovative TV stand/mount.
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:44 am

    Corrosion wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:
    The limited optical visibility, of the PAK FA is largely attributed to the use of metamaterials and so-called “e-camouflage” in the more recent versions of the PAK FA. The negative refraction index of metamaterials makes them an ideal means for camouflaging military targets, as they cannot be discovered by radio reconnaissance equipment within a certain range of frequencies. Using this technology, on-board cameras record everything surrounding the aircraft, in real time mode. Supercomputers and metamaterials allow the cameras to project the image on to the aircraft’s surface, making it invisible.
    Do you any more info on this? This is the first time I am hearing that any such tech is being developed for PAK-FA.



    BTW, AMCA project exists. Which will be a medium sized "Stealth" fighter. You can argue, as its progress is unknown but there is certainly a plan to make one.


    Yes, I do . I am not playing it by the ear. Do you read Russian .In case you do try this link

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/

    Search using the key words ПАК ФА or T 50 .You will find an article written by distinguished Russian defense analyst Olga Vasilieva . In case you do not read Russian an English translation is available here

    http://ezli007.blogspot.in/2011_09_07_archive.html

    Russia prepares a separate report for most countries . I had found this article on Russia's India report as well . I will NEVER rely on Western sources to get my information about Russia , India , China , rest of Asia. There reporting about Russia and Asia is inevitably sub standard . Designed Primarily for the consumption of lunatics like Victor7.

    The AMCA idea was conceived by a former Indian President . At that time India had not even entered into a discussion with Russia to co produce the PAK FA . In an interview to a leading Indian defense magazine (link below) the Air Chief clearly states that Su-30MKI, Light Combat Aircraft, Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft and Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft will be the mainstay of the IAF .

    http://www.dsalert.org/aerospace-power-in-india/289-exclusive-interview-of-chief-of-air-staff

    I can discuss this at length . However , that would be the start of another troll question like - "Is Russia safe from F 22" .
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:58 am

    Thanks for links
    Sujoy wrote:I will NEVER rely on Western sources to get my information about Russia , India , China , rest of Asia. There reporting about Russia and Asia is inevitably sub standard .
    I do agree about this.

    The AMCA idea was conceived by a former Indian President . At that time India had not even entered into a discussion with Russia to co produce the PAK FA . In an interview to a leading Indian defense magazine (link below) the Air Chief clearly states that Su-30MKI, Light Combat Aircraft, Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft and Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft will be the mainstay of the IAF .

    http://www.dsalert.org/aerospace-power-in-india/289-exclusive-interview-of-chief-of-air-staff
    Sujoy, why would they display its models and brochures at Aero India 2011...if it was a dead project.
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:55 am

    @ Corrosion

    Here is the link from HAL where they talk about their products including forthcoming ones

    http://www.hal-india.com/futureproducts/products.asp

    You will notice that there is no mention of any AMCA / MCA what ever.

    DRDO has been continuously criticized by CAG and media for not being able to meet the requirements of the Armed Forces. Nowhere is this more evident than in the design and development of Ballistic missiles .

    Therefore to silence criticism and to justify the billions of dollars that Govt of India showers on them thay came up with a mock model of the AMCA in the Aero India show. Did they put a timeline as to when this will be included in the IAF . No, coz even they do not know that . Obviously , if they say 25-30 yrs from now we will need a 6th gen aircraft and this is one of those maybe we will still accept it albeit with a spoon of salt .
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    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:49 pm

    It is definitely possible from a technical point of view. It can be easily done in a lab setting. In fact you can do it in your home with some success if you have a good 42" border-less screen, a good video camera and a innovative TV stand/mount.

    That was then and this is now..........some where I read that 'bending photons so that light gets hidden'.......I just did a google on it and found this link

    http://gajitz.com/space-time-invisibility-cloak-bends-light-to-hide-objects/

    "A space-time cloak would be made of “metamaterials” (man-made materials with extraordinary properties) that would effectively hide photons from the human eye to conceal objects without cluing in watchers. The cloak would do this by basically accelerating the photons closer to the viewer while slowing photons behind the object or event that is to be concealed. The cloak would create a gap in space-time which would hide whatever needs to be hidden."
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    gloriousfatherland

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    Post  gloriousfatherland Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:53 pm

    TR1 wrote:What isn't impressive Victor, is your child like obsession with F-22 detection range. Aviation is NUMBER ONE hinging on aerodynamics. Your comment regarding that, was.....much like this thread. Devoid of any sense.

    Something for Victor
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    gloriousfatherland

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    Post  gloriousfatherland Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:05 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    It is definitely possible from a technical point of view. It can be easily done in a lab setting. In fact you can do it in your home with some success if you have a good 42" border-less screen, a good video camera and a innovative TV stand/mount.

    That was then and this is now..........some where I read that 'bending photons so that light gets hidden'.......I just did a google on it and found this link

    http://gajitz.com/space-time-invisibility-cloak-bends-light-to-hide-objects/

    "A space-time cloak would be made of “metamaterials” (man-made materials with extraordinary properties) that would effectively hide photons from the human eye to conceal objects without cluing in watchers. The cloak would do this by basically accelerating the photons closer to the viewer while slowing photons behind the object or event that is to be concealed. The cloak would create a gap in space-time which would hide whatever needs to be hidden."

    These scientists need to go on some prozac...Photon is still a theory.... Light like electromagnetic radiation have to type of behaviours, particulate nature and wave nature...This photon stuff they are concieveing will not work for all frequencies of light and would also be dependent the threshold frequencies of the "metamaterials". For my understanding of electromagnetic radition and photons, photoelectrics etc, this is theoritical and cannot be applied in the real world since the totally ideal conditions required for this to work doesn't exist. Infact do we even see photons? No....so whats their point? I think these boys watched too much starwars....Creat a gap in space time means you will be in so other dimension...I didn't know we could stop time ?

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