Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+61
Backman
owais.usmani
JohninMK
Enera
PeeD
bojcistv
obliqueweapons
Isos
Arrow
miketheterrible
GarryB
MarshallJukov
marcellogo
Zastel
George1
Erlindur
hoom
Rmf
Azi
eehnie
SeigSoloyvov
Singular_Transform
kvs
Batajnica
moskit
victor1985
sepheronx
max steel
Mike E
Swede55
Werewolf
magnumcromagnon
Hannibal Barca
nemrod
AlfaT8
macedonian
Rpg type 7v
Hachimoto
Vann7
KomissarBojanchev
Sujoy
SACvet
Firebird
gloriousfatherland
Mr.Kalishnikov47
Russian Patriot
ali.a.r
Corrosion
coolieno99
Notio
Viktor
TheArmenian
ahmedfire
medo
Mindstorm
SOC
TR1
victor7
IronsightSniper
Stealthflanker
Austin
65 posters

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:18 pm

    There are roles of point defense and escort fighters which should be multi-role as well. This is where LCA comes in. Not to mention it is an ingenious platform.

    Wikipedia says LCA now costs $31M, this is more than Mig-29 for $29M and Mirage-2000 for $23M. Multirole features can be made by adding range and changing engines etc. Indians are throwing money away. More so because against their immediate adversaries Pak and China, they are sufficient currently so no need to buy $120M Rafaels or Eurofighters. They need to add some solid backbone planes like Fulcrum, Mirage-2000s or F-16D etc. I think they also threw several billions on Britics Hawk trainer when buying one from Russia like Yak would have been much cheaper and still offer war time light attack utility.

    People do not understand that it is the training i.e. men behind the machines that STILL matters especially when opposing sides are nearly evenly matched. Israeli Defense units are a good example of good training and improvisation to come out on top, nearly all the time, even when fielding inferior equipment on paper.
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:24 am

    Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:The F-22 is a money sink with no future. End of story. I'm an American tax payer, so excuse me if I'm not fond of a dead end project that has costed billions upon billions of dollars and accomplished nothing.

    Not to mention the cost of upkeep and maintenance. How did the airforce ever think they could afford to maintain over 700 of these things anyways? Rolling Eyes


    I would say money sunk is more a case of F-35 rather than F-22s. Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane. Pakfa might hover around $120M which is still 20% cost effective.

    F22s reduction from 700 to 187 was more of an economy based decision rather than military. For now US sees no threat to its supremacy in the air force.

    F22 is not yet an 'end of story'. It is not neutralized yet and in the event of hostilities it can do some serious damage to the opposing legacy air forces. Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".
    Mr.Kalishnikov47
    Mr.Kalishnikov47

    Posts : 293
    Points : 336
    Join date : 2012-02-26
    Age : 33
    Location : U.S.A

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:09 am

    victor7 wrote:

    I would say money sunk is more a case of F-35 rather than F-22s. Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane. Pakfa might hover around $120M which is still 20% cost effective.

    F22s reduction from 700 to 187 was more of an economy based decision rather than military. For now US sees no threat to its supremacy in the air force.

    F22 is not yet an 'end of story'. It is not neutralized yet and in the event of hostilities it can do some serious damage to the opposing legacy air forces. Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".

    How is it supposed to do "serious damage" to anybody if it has to spend more than 34 hours on the ground for every two hours it flies?

    And by the way, about the cost, the F-22 program is supposed to end up costing a whopping 70 Billion dollars total, do you even realize how much money's gonna have to be taken from people like me to fund something that huge?

    If the U.S really wants to hit an S-400 from 200 km away or whatever you keep rambling on about, then they should just invest in more B-2 bombers, you know, something that might actually be useful.
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:10 am

    30 hours for each hour of flight can also mean 30 men/machines working on different parts of the plane and in 1 hour the plane is ready for flight again.

    Hitting S-400 right now means taking on Russia. For a moment if we presume that is happening, then risking a $2B B2 vrs $350M F22 does not make sense. F22 is everything, interceptor, dogfighter, bomber, mini-AWACS and many other features. It's new radar is going to be finding out birds from 400 kms and that is some big issue to find a counter point on. More fearsome when this radar stands a chance to burn off your own from that distance leaving you only chance to quickly duck and run away or almost surly lose the plane.

    I am nearly confident that F22 already has some secret technologies that its adversaries do not know about and thus not spend efforts in finding counter measures. Direct Energy, Blinding or Killing lasers, even mini EMPs can all be possible on F22 and F35s already.

    Last year US was the net exporter of the energy. This means $700B savings to its treasury. This all has come from the oil extraction from the North Dakota Bekken shell oil find. The value of new oil findings in US is estimated at $200 Trillion. So do not be surprised if Mitt Romney gets elected and F22s get a clearance to build another 500 to completely replace the aging F15s. Even Obama might do that as he is very cunning and deceiving like Clinton was. Putin should not trust him on missile defense sweet talk. Russia has some serious work cut out in front regarding F22s and BMD bases propping up everywhere in Europe and very soon in Asia.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31011
    Points : 31537
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:36 am

    Hahahahahaha... so they are actually going to build more of them!!!!

    Hilarious.

    Reopening production is never cheap... these planes will cost a fortune... without really changing the level of security for the US.

    In fact it will likely just increase international demand for the PAK FA and the eventual Chinese equivalent.
    avatar
    Corrosion

    Posts : 185
    Points : 198
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:44 am

    victor7 wrote:
    this is more than Mig-29 for $29M
    IN mig29k costed around 42 million each.

    Mirage-2000 for $23M.
    It is not available anymore. Line closed.

    Multirole features can be made by adding range and changing engines etc.
    No idea what you meant here.

    More so because against their immediate adversaries Pak and China, they are sufficient currently so no need to buy $120M Rafaels or Eurofighters.
    No its not. A lot of Mig21 and Mig 27 are going to be retired, then there are Jaguars going to go as well. China is going to inducting J-10b, J-11b , nobody knows in what numbers. Also ramping up infrastructure in Tibet. Rafale is suited well here. It has a good ground strike potential as well.


    They need to add some solid backbone planes like Fulcrum, Mirage-2000s or F-16D etc.
    So Rafale doesnt have a solid backbone? scratch
    avatar
    Corrosion

    Posts : 185
    Points : 198
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:49 am

    victor7 wrote:Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane.
    You have any source that F-22 is going to be exported?

    Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".
    I thought F-22 cannot drop bombs.
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:28 am

    Just did a goog on F22 export here is the link, not verified btw
    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409/

    Once Pakfa comes out and USAF sees it then they might go ahead with export version in order to reduce the unit cost and get some more for themselves.

    Regarding Fulcrums, F16s, Mirage etc vrs LCA, The general idea was to buy already proven and practiced machines rather than spend billions in coming up with something which is barely like J-10 or early block F16s. Choice was not limited to the three only.

    For a price of 1 Rafael, Indians could have gotten 3 very advanced quality jets from all around or even 2 Mig-35s with Aesa radars. Rafeal gives stealth, so what? How many stealths are needed to take out Chinese S-300s. I would have gone with two dozens at most.

    Does a squadron of Rafeal have a potential to eat up 1/3rd of Pakistan's Airforce? If so, then probably a good choice. But $120M for a plane for country like India, is little expensive, I think...........given the cheap guy that I am! geek

    F22 export model
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMSgwa46S8 pirat
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:54 am

    Refusing Mig-35, you guys rejected an advanced block F16 with AESA for the cost of $50M tops of the tops.


    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/08/mig-35-brief-review.html

    Life cycle cost

    The service of MiG-35 is executed by condition, with condition assessment each 1000 flight hours up to max. 6000 hours of life (or 40 years of service).

    For comparison classic MiG-29 has only 2500 hours of life resource (or 20 years). Periodic routine service each 100 fly hours (1 year) is needed. Order works are each 200 f.h. (24 months). Plant MLU is needed on 800 and 1500 f.h. (9 and 17 years of service).
    With all the amortization in consideration the flight hour cost of MiG-35 is as 2.5 times cheaper than for classic MiG-29!

    There is an old calculation from the middle of 90th, for classic MiG-29's in Eastern Europe. Then the flight hour cost was $3000 for MiG-29 and $2000 for F-16 - it's without amortization cost.

    In 1994 – 1996 a new MiG-29's price was as $25 000 000. F-16's price was $18 600 000. MiG-29's airframe life was – 2,500 hours, or $10 000 for 1 hour. F-16's airframe life was – 8,000 hours, or $2,325 for hour. Mig-29's RD-33 engine of old serials has life of 800 hours, wile F-16's engine of that time has 2000 hours life. So, with all the life cycle expenditure the difference in flight hour cost between two planes was much higher: $15 500 for MiG-29 and about $5 900 for F-16! Even after the dollar/ruble parity has changed the prices very significant, single-engine F-16 remain to be more attractive in terms of lifecycle cost against classic MiG-29. With new MiG-35 coming, this advantage is going to totally diminish.
    TR1
    TR1

    Posts : 5552
    Points : 5560
    Join date : 2011-12-07

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  TR1 Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:57 am

    F-16 with AESA for 50 mill?

    lol yeah right.
    avatar
    Corrosion

    Posts : 185
    Points : 198
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:36 pm

    victor7 wrote:Just did a goog on F22 export here is the link, not verified btw
    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409/

    Once Pakfa comes out and USAF sees it then they might go ahead with export version in order to reduce the unit cost and get some more for themselves.

    There wont be many(I would say none, except US) countries around the world that can afford F-22 in any meaningful numbers for the economies of scale aspect to kick in. Although I agree many would like to get their hands on F-22 namely Israel, Japan, Australia etc. But I don't think they will order more than a squadron each, considering its price and life cycle costs. Then the question arises, will the US export its best fighter for a few billion dollars when it can very easily make that money on F-35 sales anyway. I don't see the logic in that if you look from US point of view.

    Regarding Fulcrums, F16s, Mirage etc vrs LCA, The general idea was to buy already proven and practiced machines rather than spend billions in coming up with something which is barely like J-10 or early block F16s. Choice was not limited to the three only.
    LCA will be cheaper in the long run. Not to mention the technologies that have been developed for the LCA and the lessons learned during this program are invaluable and will help in future projects such as AMCA and also FGFA upto certain extent. Also some technologies developed are already being used in other legacy platform upgrades in India. The idea wasn't to get a proven platform but a lightweight platform to replace hundreds of Mig21 that IAF operated. LCA is/will be cheaper to operate than Fulcrum or F-16, which are clearly in medium weight category according to IAF classification.

    For a price of 1 Rafael, Indians could have gotten 3 very advanced quality jets from all around or even 2 Mig-35s with Aesa radars. Rafeal gives stealth, so what? How many stealths are needed to take out Chinese S-300s. I would have gone with two dozens at most.
    First of all, Rafale is not stealthy. It has frontal reduced RCS and some other measures but I am not sure how useful it will be against ground radars. But it has good avionics namely Thales Spectra etc., and is already integrated with lots of ground attack weaponry. And since France will operate it for at least 3 more decades, it has a good upgrade potential. Although I personally wouldn't have minded Mig-35 either. But frankly speaking Rafale brings more to the table. And since it is going to be first ever export for Rafale if this deal goes through. India has a chance to get a very good deal and it will much cheaper than 120 million that you keep stating, since it will be built in India.

    F22 export model
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMSgwa46S8 pirat
    I am sure Australia will love it. Very Happy
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31011
    Points : 31537
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:52 pm

    US export its best fighter for a few billion dollars when it can very easily make that money on F-35 sales anyway. I don't see the logic in that if you look from US point of view.

    And that is critical... F-22s sales will kill F-35 sales and as numbers for orders keep dropping for the F-35 it becomes more and more expensive.

    Sales of F-22s for export will not be big enough to reduce the price and lets face facts the US can barely afford the upkeep on them... for the Israeli air force or the Australian air force or even the Japanese air force the costs of maintainence will likely chew up the budget and kill other more valuable programs.

    It makes rather more sense for the US to let the F-22 die and work on an unmanned 6th generation aircraft they keep crapping on about... even if the first version has a pilot to reduce development costs.

    India has a chance to get a very good deal and it will much cheaper than 120 million that you keep stating, since it will be built in India.

    Building them locally usually increases costs, though there are plenty of benefits to that that outweigh the extra cost. Upskilling the local workforce, is just one example.

    I am sure Australia will love it.

    For the sort of money a single F-22 squadron would cost they would be better off buying an aircraft carrier or a couple of submarines.

    Imagine if Australia had accepted the Russian advances in the 1990s... they wouldn't have troops in Afghanistan, they could have Su-34s replacing their F-111s and instead of Super Hornets the money and effort they could be introducing their own Su-35 variant into service to replace their legacy Hornets and they likely would be working now on RVV-BD missiles. Instead of thinking about a Collins replacement from Europe they could be paying for the completion of an OSCAR II class vessel with an upgrade to replace the Granits with Yakhonts.

    They could even be collaborating with Russia on a variant of the PAK FA... if India didn't want them in on the FFGA then perhaps the Australians and the Brazilians could work together with the Russians on another variant of the PAK FA or perhaps a light 5th gen fighter with Mig?

    Ahh well.... if is one of the biggest words in the English language...
    avatar
    ali.a.r

    Posts : 113
    Points : 116
    Join date : 2011-11-04

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  ali.a.r Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:46 pm

    I read that the RCS of the F-117 was dramatically increased when it opened its bomb bays because the stealth design was then compromised. If that is true, then that should mean that all stealth aircraft will lose their stealth as soon as they try to launch a weapon, because all the stealth aircraft in the world rely on their bomb bays since there aren't any stealthy missiles or munitions ( at least, I dont think there is ). Very Happy
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31011
    Points : 31537
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:41 pm

    It is subject to the law of diminished returns.

    To get the highest stealth possible you need to have everything perfect... any deviation from perfection and the whole thing is ruined.

    I remember reading of an F-117 that was actually being tracked easily by civilian radar of all things.

    Turns out they had been doing maintainence on the aircraft and two screws were not screwed down fully and stuck out above the surface.

    It was enough to ruin the stealth of the aircraft.

    Might sound silly... the tips of two screws sticking up from an otherwise flat surface, but because of the frequency the radar was operating at the two screw tips were far enough apart to reflect the radar signal back to the radar source with a fairly strong signal that allowed the otherwise stealthy aircraft to be not only detected but also tracked.
    avatar
    Corrosion

    Posts : 185
    Points : 198
    Join date : 2010-10-19

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:55 pm

    ali.r,

    But it is only for few seconds. After the doors are closed it will be back to its optimal condition. Whether the opposing aircraft can capitalize on that is different matter. All up that is a non issue IMO.

    IMHO it will be silly for the opposing aircraft pilot to play into the strengths of Stealth aircraft and go straight at him if its location is known even for a second. Non-stealth pilot has to innovate and use other devices he has such as EW equipment and Infra Red/ visual detectors, maybe even switch of his own radar for a while and go fly low, very low and try to get in close. If non stealth fighters are defending an airspace, then they can use ground assets and also fly much distance apart in order to triangulate. Networking data links will be very important, if stealth fighter is to be intercepted. The more closer a stealth fighter gets to a (advanced) 4th gen fighter, e.g. a latest model Flanker, its advantage diminishes. But non stealth fighter pilot has to play smart since he is at disadvantage and most likely will be detected first.

    But if a non-stealth or even stealth fighters are attacking an airspace defended by stealth fighters, then it will be very difficult for invading force. I think Pak-Fa has been designed the way it is as an interceptor, to defend airspace against stealth fighters/bombers.
    avatar
    ali.a.r

    Posts : 113
    Points : 116
    Join date : 2011-11-04

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  ali.a.r Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:48 pm

    But it is only for few seconds. After the doors are closed it will be back to its optimal condition.

    Yes, it might be only for a few seconds.

    BUT.

    The enemy might not have a clue as to a stealth plane flying around in the airspace, but as soon as a missile is launched, then they'll know that something up there fired it, and then use every available resource to bring it down. You touched a lot on that in your reply.

    In the context of the original question (Is Russia safe from F-22?), the 'available resources' are ample. So, IMHO, a F-22 or F-35 over Russia would be on a suicide mission if it ever launches any thing.
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:23 am

    In the context of the original question (Is Russia safe from F-22?), the 'available resources' are ample. So, IMHO, a F-22 or F-35 over Russia would be on a suicide mission if it ever launches any thing.


    No Country for Old Men.............
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31011
    Points : 31537
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:40 am

    Suggesting less than 200 stealth fighters all based in the US and hangar queens at that makes all other aircraft obsolete is naive.

    Just like suggesting that nuclear weapons make war impossible... which clearly hasn't been the case for the last half century.
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:11 am

    http://defensetech.org/2007/12/07/the-poor-mans-stealth-detector/

    Time and again, USAF sources have said that F22 vrs 6 or so F15s is not even a fair fight. Many have termed Raptor as a 6th generation plane..........got to give some value to these statements. USAF does not like to boast and post wrong figures. dunno

    If I were an air force of say Iran or Pakistan or India, then against F22 I would not even send my legacy jets to get slaughtered. Either shoot F22 by a mobile SAM or kill off the missiles and bombs launched by the Raptor. Save your air defense networks like Serbians did and prolong the 'hostile excursion' by the USAF.

    ps: do not think any of the above, Iran, Pak or India have even S300s, so SAM question is out the window.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 31011
    Points : 31537
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:25 pm

    Time and again, USAF sources have said that F22 vrs 6 or so F15s is not even a fair fight. Many have termed Raptor as a 6th generation plane..........got to give some value to these statements. USAF does not like to boast and post wrong figures.

    The USAF that won WWII on its own in Europe with its strategic bombing campaign knows little of the truth.

    F-15s don't have IRSTs or R-73s or for that matter any BVR IR guided missiles.

    They have spent trillions on stealth... they are hardly going to admit it is not all powerful or their budget might get cut more than it is.

    Save your air defense networks like Serbians did and prolong the 'hostile excursion' by the USAF.

    The serbs were very skillful with what they had, but they had poor equipment. Give them better stuff and not only would their losses have been low, but they could have gone on the offensive and done some real damage.

    ps: do not think any of the above, Iran, Pak or India have even S300s, so SAM question is out the window.

    The USAF has very few basing options for the F-22 in the region of Iran or Pakistan or India without using inflight refuelling.

    The US wants to get into bed with India... it is hardly going to sht where it eats and attack them.

    Equally there is little point in attacking Pakistan... what would be the point... or more importantly why use an F-22 when an unmanned drone can already do the job?

    To attack Iran would be pointless because it will create the very thing they fear... a unified and focussed Iran bent on creating a nuclear weapon. Even if they sent every bomber they had they will never hit all the secret underground facilities... for every 10 they know about there are probably another 30-40 they don't... they don't have to be big... the original reactor the US used to create the plutonium for nuclear weapons was built on an area the size of a basket ball court.
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1654
    Points : 1830
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  ahmedfire Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:10 pm

    Garry

    I apologise for using tough word (crude) , i didn't explain well what i mean, i meant old mig-29s that havn't upgraded yet ,but the upgraded MIGs are good in combat missions ,but old MIGs that havn't upgraded yet have low chances in compraison with new western aircrafts , i apologise if i wrongly wrote a hateful speech,i'm already a russian stuff fan ,that's why i'm here Smile
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1654
    Points : 1830
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  ahmedfire Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:28 pm


    Simply put, said Pierre Sprey and James P. Stevenson, the F-22 Raptor is shaping up to be the Sturmvogel of the 21st century: a dazzling piece of technology that fatally ignores some of the unbending realities of aerial combat.

    On surface, the Raptor debate ended six months ago. After years of controversy, the Air Force and Defense Department reached a final agreement on the Raptor program, with DoD and Congress approving full production of the stealth fighter while capping the program at 183 aircraft, a 50-percent reduction of the 381 planes that the service had long said it needed at a minimum.

    (For Tyndall Air Force Base, where the Raptor pilot training program is located, this has meant a reduction in training squadrons from two to one, with 29 of the sleek fighters to be used in preparing pilots for combat units.)

    But to Sprey, a founding member of the so-called “fighter mafia” group that during the 1960s and 1970s ramrodded the F-15, F-16 and A-10 programs into being despite fierce internal opposition, and military author Stevenson, who has written extensively on the Navy’s F/A-18 and A-12 fighters, the Air Force has created a major crisis in its future combat capability by sticking to the Raptor program.

    The two analysts presented their stark findings to a symposium at the nonprofit Center for Defense Information on Friday in Washington, D.C. The two analysts provided their findings to The News Herald, and Sprey elaborated on the issues in a telephone interview.

    Sprey said his briefing focused on the time-tested factors that define an effective fighter plane: (1) See the enemy first; (2) outnumber the enemy; (3) outmaneuver the enemy to fire, and (4) kill the enemy quickly.

    “The Raptor is a horrible failure on almost every one of those criteria,” Sprey said.

    The stellar attribute of the F-22 — its invisibility on enemy radar due to a computer-aided stealth design — is a “myth,” Sprey said. That is because in order to locate the enemy beyond visual range, the Raptor (like every other fighter) must turn on its own radar, immediately betraying its location.

    Nor is the aircraft design effective simply because its advocates insist so, Sprey said. The 1980s-era F-117 stealth fighter was supposed to be invisible too, but post-Gulf War studies showed that the aircraft had been spotted by Iraq’s ground-based radars, he said.

    And in the 77-day aerial campaign against Serbia in 1999, the adversary’s “1950s-era radar” managed to locate and shoot down two F-117s, Stevenson pointed out in his presentation. The situation is actually worse today, he said, because many nations have acquired advanced missiles that can home in on radar emissions.

    “Who do you want in a dark alley?” Stevenson asked. “The cop with the flashlight, or the crook with a gun that fires light-homing bullets?”

    Because the Raptor ultimately ballooned into a weapon that costs $361 million per copy, even Congress could not stomach the total program cost exceeding $65 billion, Sprey said. As a result, the Air Force is now committed to fielding a fighter program that lacks sufficient numbers to prevail in a major conflict, however effective the individual aircraft may be.

    “Hitler had 70 Me-262s in combat,” Sprey said. “They were crushed by the force of 2,000 inferior P-51s that the United States had in the air.”

    Early reports from mock deployments of the Raptor also show a major shortfall in the fighter’s sustainability in combat, Sprey said.

    “The F-16 costs one-tenth of the F-22 and flies three times as often due to the issues of stealth, complexity and maintenance affecting the Raptor,” Sprey said. Sustainability and the number of aircraft available to fight on any given day, he added, are “vastly more important” than the quality of the F-22. “You have to have numerical superiority to win.”

    On the last two points, maneuverability and capability for a “quick kill,” the two analysts assert that the Raptor is inferior to the F-16 and several allied fighter designs in the crucible of “energy-maneuverability.”

    “Some (experts) assert that in the next air war,” all of the radars will be off and the air war will merge to air combat maneuvering,” Stevenson observed.

    The Raptor’s performance in that mode will be “disastrous,” Sprey added.

    “The only thing that will bail the U.S. Air Force out of this mess is the fact that they still have a lot of F-16s in service,” Sprey said, “The day they send the F-16s to the ‘boneyard’ is the day the service becomes a non-Air Force.”

    http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=197
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:36 pm

    To attack Iran would be pointless because it will create the very thing they fear... a unified and focussed Iran bent on creating a nuclear weapon.

    The attack on Iran has several goals. One major goal is the regime change in the Russia friendly nations. Second goal is to access the Central Asian energy sources via Iran and thus further reducing Russia's influence in the CIS. Many other goals can be listed, however final goal is Russia.

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/05-04-2012/121003-missile_defense_retaliation-0/

    Maximum range of R-73 is 40km, Maximum range of IRSTs is 60KM.......would not work well against F22s, IMHO. It will first burn off your radar from 200Km then from around 100 Kms it will fire AIM-120. Your IRST will find it at around 60 km giving giving you 50 odd seconds at most to evade.

    For 25 years this stealth technology has been breathing down the necks of the adversary air forces and no solution yet reached to DeTacK it. Better focus on beating its missiles and bombs and also on increasing the range of IRST based identifiers.

    Point has been repeatedly made that Russia has tools to handle stealth but if one by one Russia's friends are taken out then that is much more of a threat to the RF than F22s going on hunting missions against Russia's national interests.


    Last edited by victor7 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:14 am; edited 3 times in total
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 4230
    Points : 4314
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  medo Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:54 pm

    The USAF that won WWII on its own in Europe with its strategic bombing campaign knows little of the truth.

    And 3/4 of Luftwaffe was on Russian front...
    avatar
    victor7

    Posts : 203
    Points : 214
    Join date : 2012-02-28

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  victor7 Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:20 pm

    For 1 division employed on the western front there were 7 divisions fighting the Russians in the east.

    Sponsored content

    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2? - Page 14 Empty Re: Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:11 pm