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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:33 pm

    It is a typical assessment by US officers to declare Soviet equipment as "crude" when it serves different functions and was built for a different service and exploitation strategy.

    That's true, western sources inflate their wrong opinions when it suits them. One cup of water on an airplane wing does not make it soaked and draining in rain........but they sure seem to project it like that.

    There can be two points on articles like above a) chances of client states buying western weapons will still be low to nothing as many a cases west would not sell them the weapon complex, so not much harm done to marketing b) such negative opinions help race the mind horses for improvement and creativity for next model or block of the weapon. Simple but equally effective weapon costs much less over the service lifetime cost. Indians are buying Su-30s w/AESA and total cost for 40 birds comes to $4B odd at $104M per unit. However these include the lifetime service costs. People tend to go with initial flyaway price which should be $30-40M for Su-30s and spread stories that Russians are trying to defraud Indian Air Force.

    I would rather buy an upgraded T-72 for $2M than a gas guzzler M1A1 for $6M. It is a matter of doctrine and other variables.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:33 pm

    the moon landing was basically conducted on an 8kb computer

    And the Memdelev Table was also developed without computers... what is your point?

    My point is that even a bog standard Mig-29 uses 486 level computer hardware, so what is all this crap about the F-22 being a super computer with wings?

    bigger and fatter bandwidth is not automatically better especially for fighters.

    Most word processing and email that people do now on 8 core 3.5 GHz computers is not hugely different from the sort of thing they could have done in the 1980s on an Amiga 500 at something like 7.4 MHz clock speed.
    As you point out there is a difference between military and commercial, but a faster higher performance processor operating in a larger bandwidth has very important flow on effects in terms of capabilities.

    If you want sensor fusion then you need a system that can in real time combine raw data coming in from multiple sources (RHAW, IR sensors, Radar, and off platform sources and combine it all into a real time picture of everything around the aircraft.

    An 8 bit or 16 bit architecture will limit the number of memory addresses... even in a 32 bit environment Windows cannot recognise more than about 3 GB of RAM, which might not sound like a big deal but the amount of data a modern AESA radar can generate means you need as much grunt as you can get.

    Just as an example the original ZASLON radar of the Mig-31 was a very powerful set and its volume of scanning was enormous, but its range was not very impressive because of a lack of processing power.

    The current upgrades AFAIK use the same radar with the same antenna with almost double the range because of a much more powerful radar.

    A dedicated processor that is hard wired to a task doesn't need to be fast... do a search on my chats with Flanky about UAVs taking over the role of JSTARS in the Russian Air Force and even my chats with Vlad about making computer chips.

    A calculator can have a very slow processor but still do the job of calculations very very quickly, the problem is that in the 1980s as processors got faster the computers in military equipment moved from pretty much custom designed chips used for specific roles in specific aircraft where an upgrade means a whole new chip and hardware needs to be developed to a generic off the shelf chip where upgrades are just a question of a software patch or upgrade.


    because in combat you don't need it - you only want and need to track the object of interest that does not require huge bandwidth

    Again, this us supposed to be the best of the best... some even claim it should be called a 6th gen fighter because it is so much better than 4th gen fighters...

    the Mig29 HMS doesn't give a cue as to what the missile is locked to - certainly it was true of the former East German airframes - there's a very comprehensive description of operations with the Mig29 by a US pilot floating around, and it's quite illuminating as to how crude the whole thing is compared to western aircraft.

    What a load of rubbish. Looking through the glass monocle the pilot sees a reticle or aiming sight pattern and to use it he turns his head to put the target aircraft in the centre of the reticle and presses a button on his control stick which slaves the selected missiles seeker to his line of sight, so it turns to where he is looking and gets a lock on that target. When lock is acquired the pilot is free to pull the trigger and launch the missile.

    When this system entered service his NATO equivalent looked around in the sky for the enemy and when he located them he had to turn his entire aircraft to point his nose at the target and then activate his missile seeker to scan for the target. If there is a group of targets EVEN IF HE GETS A RADAR LOCK that means nothing because there is no link between his radar and his IR guided missiles so his radar might lock on one target and his IR guided missile might lock on a different target altogether...

    It is amusing the west calls the Soviet system crude because the US equivalent didn't enter service till at least 20 years later, has no clear advantages over the Soviet system though it is heavier, more complex and orders of magnitude more expensive so only a small percentage of US fighters actually have it... and that does not include their F-22s. On the other hand every model from the oldest to the newest Mig-29 and Su-27 have it fitted as standard.
    Also what is not widely recognised is that the R-27T and R-27ET are also high off boresight IR guided AAMs which benefit from the helmet mounted sight...

    I'd suggest training (western jet operators spend a lot of time and money in putting their stuff into the sky in large, well scriped DACT exercises), and situational awareness (both inside the cockpit and out!) are both more relevant than how many gigaflops are on tap.

    I'd suggest that it is par for the course... the Super aerial Cray computer is actually a white elephant that will likely be a hangar queen for some time to come...

    consider that the F-16s flew in "clean" condition while the MiGs had six pylons and carried a centreline drop tank and two fixed R-73 acquisition rounds "



    A....little detail Very Happy .

    To be clear the use of the centreline drop tank on an early model Mig-29 is for ferrying ONLY and limits the aircraft to something like 4g flight performance.

    Simple but equally effective weapon costs much less over the service lifetime cost. Indians are buying Su-30s w/AESA and total cost for 40 birds comes to $4B odd at $104M per unit. However these include the lifetime service costs. People tend to go with initial flyaway price which should be $30-40M for Su-30s and spread stories that Russians are trying to defraud Indian Air Force.

    The contents of that contract have not been revealed AFAIK, for all we know the $4B dollars could cover the price of the 40 new Su-30s with AESA plus an upgrade of existing aircraft to that standard. They equally could have ordered new simulators, or they might simply have included a large order of spare parts and weapons for their whole fleet with those 40 new aircraft.
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    Post  Corrosion Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:55 am

    Crude or not, IAF Mig29 pilots love it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwmMzgaW1RM

    More so it is also stationed at important places in India. Shows the confidence that IAF has in this plane.
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    Post  victor7 Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:25 pm

    Why do not the Indians go for more Mig-29s rather than trying to develop the LCAs which they have been........like forever!

    Mig21-Bis and Mig-21-98s have been known to give real hard time to even advanced block F16s. Only few upgrades needed like better engines, more range, better missiles and for $2M-3M you have a very decent fighter available for next 15-20 years. For $2B one can add whole new additional airforce of 600 planes of F16 quality. I think Turkey has an air force which is loaded with F16s only and same as Egypt but they also have few Mirage also.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:28 pm

    Of course the Mig-29 pilots in India have the benefit that they are getting upgrades and are flying aircraft far superior than the aircraft these western pilots are complaining about.

    It is a bit like the M16 and the AK-47... comparing the latest model M16 with the original AK-47 and complaining that the AK-47 doesn't have the features of the M16.

    The amusing thing I find is people suggesting the AK-47 is not ergonomic.

    If you shoot left handed it is very ergonomic.

    Left handed people are trained to shoot right handed, so it should be no problem at all to train all soldiers to shoot left handed.

    Much cheaper than buying all new rifles...

    The thing is that people trained on M16s with peep iron sights and adjustable length stocks become used to such features, and when trying a different rifle that don't have those features will criticise their absence.

    The problem from a third party view is that the fact that they are used to a different system does not make the system they are trying bad or not good... I know for a fact that someone like me used to the AKM I don't like the western style peep iron sights, and the M16 is a very long rifle that could do with a folding stock instead of one you can move a few cms to make it slightly shorter or longer.

    Anyway... what I am trying to say is that these western pilots are basically criticising the first model Mig-29 for not being an F-16.


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:20 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaoYz90giTk&feature=related

    F22 vid from 2009..........why it was cancelled!

    power video on raptor
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPnVinSOGCk&feature=related
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:59 am

    Lets apply western rules to dealing with Soviet propaganda....

    If it is bad then it must be true. If it is not bad then it is a lie and should be ignored.

    Which basically means the first video condemning the F-22 was all truth and the second video was advertising rubbish that should be ignored.

    ...hey, I didn't make up the rules...
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    Post  Corrosion Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:54 am

    victor7 wrote:Why do not the Indians go for more Mig-29s rather than trying to develop the LCAs which they have been........like forever!
    It is the operational requirements. IAF is going to operate as three tier force....light, medium and heavy instead of hi/low combination. LCA/Mig21 is light, MMRCA/Mig29/Mirage etc. is medium and Su-30 Heavy. There are roles of point defense and escort fighters which should be multi-role as well. This is where LCA comes in. Not to mention it is an ingenious platform. It will not be allowed to fail IMO...similarly like F-35 wont be allowed to fail Wink

    Mig21-Bis and Mig-21-98s have been known to give real hard time to even advanced block F16s.
    Its only Bison that can give hard time to advanced F-16 if used intelligently. I don't think Mig21Bis is that capable platform.
    Only few upgrades needed like better engines, more range, better missiles and for $2M-3M you have a very decent fighter available for next 15-20 years.
    You can only go so far as there is limitation of space in Mig-21 airframe. All you suggest has been already done with Mig21. IAF is goint to operate last of Bisons upto 2017. You can read more here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Current/605-Bison.html and pictures here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Eqpmt/Walkarounds/MiG21Bison/
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:00 am

    The F-22 is a money sink with no future. End of story. I'm an American tax payer, so excuse me if I'm not fond of a dead end project that has costed billions upon billions of dollars and accomplished nothing.

    Not to mention the cost of upkeep and maintenance. How did the airforce ever think they could afford to maintain over 700 of these things anyways? Rolling Eyes

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    Post  Firebird Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:23 am

    I read some stuff on the |F-22. And it looks like a horror story for the US taxpayer. You have to wonder how much of it is Republican cronies just fleecing the taxpayer for all they can.

    There's also a second implication of all this. And that is, who "won" the Cold War. Sure America will say " we won". Russia will say "nope we chose to adopt a new path".
    So who won? Well I think CHina and India etc haven't done badly out of the whole affair.

    Sure, in defence its important to handle your direct opponent. But you also have to think of 3rd parties taking advantage of your situation..Maybe America will come to seriously regret its activities in the M East. Lessons for everyone perhaps.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:18 am

    There are roles of point defense and escort fighters which should be multi-role as well. This is where LCA comes in. Not to mention it is an ingenious platform.

    Wikipedia says LCA now costs $31M, this is more than Mig-29 for $29M and Mirage-2000 for $23M. Multirole features can be made by adding range and changing engines etc. Indians are throwing money away. More so because against their immediate adversaries Pak and China, they are sufficient currently so no need to buy $120M Rafaels or Eurofighters. They need to add some solid backbone planes like Fulcrum, Mirage-2000s or F-16D etc. I think they also threw several billions on Britics Hawk trainer when buying one from Russia like Yak would have been much cheaper and still offer war time light attack utility.

    People do not understand that it is the training i.e. men behind the machines that STILL matters especially when opposing sides are nearly evenly matched. Israeli Defense units are a good example of good training and improvisation to come out on top, nearly all the time, even when fielding inferior equipment on paper.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:24 pm

    Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:The F-22 is a money sink with no future. End of story. I'm an American tax payer, so excuse me if I'm not fond of a dead end project that has costed billions upon billions of dollars and accomplished nothing.

    Not to mention the cost of upkeep and maintenance. How did the airforce ever think they could afford to maintain over 700 of these things anyways? Rolling Eyes


    I would say money sunk is more a case of F-35 rather than F-22s. Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane. Pakfa might hover around $120M which is still 20% cost effective.

    F22s reduction from 700 to 187 was more of an economy based decision rather than military. For now US sees no threat to its supremacy in the air force.

    F22 is not yet an 'end of story'. It is not neutralized yet and in the event of hostilities it can do some serious damage to the opposing legacy air forces. Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:09 pm

    victor7 wrote:

    I would say money sunk is more a case of F-35 rather than F-22s. Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane. Pakfa might hover around $120M which is still 20% cost effective.

    F22s reduction from 700 to 187 was more of an economy based decision rather than military. For now US sees no threat to its supremacy in the air force.

    F22 is not yet an 'end of story'. It is not neutralized yet and in the event of hostilities it can do some serious damage to the opposing legacy air forces. Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".

    How is it supposed to do "serious damage" to anybody if it has to spend more than 34 hours on the ground for every two hours it flies?

    And by the way, about the cost, the F-22 program is supposed to end up costing a whopping 70 Billion dollars total, do you even realize how much money's gonna have to be taken from people like me to fund something that huge?

    If the U.S really wants to hit an S-400 from 200 km away or whatever you keep rambling on about, then they should just invest in more B-2 bombers, you know, something that might actually be useful.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:10 pm

    30 hours for each hour of flight can also mean 30 men/machines working on different parts of the plane and in 1 hour the plane is ready for flight again.

    Hitting S-400 right now means taking on Russia. For a moment if we presume that is happening, then risking a $2B B2 vrs $350M F22 does not make sense. F22 is everything, interceptor, dogfighter, bomber, mini-AWACS and many other features. It's new radar is going to be finding out birds from 400 kms and that is some big issue to find a counter point on. More fearsome when this radar stands a chance to burn off your own from that distance leaving you only chance to quickly duck and run away or almost surly lose the plane.

    I am nearly confident that F22 already has some secret technologies that its adversaries do not know about and thus not spend efforts in finding counter measures. Direct Energy, Blinding or Killing lasers, even mini EMPs can all be possible on F22 and F35s already.

    Last year US was the net exporter of the energy. This means $700B savings to its treasury. This all has come from the oil extraction from the North Dakota Bekken shell oil find. The value of new oil findings in US is estimated at $200 Trillion. So do not be surprised if Mitt Romney gets elected and F22s get a clearance to build another 500 to completely replace the aging F15s. Even Obama might do that as he is very cunning and deceiving like Clinton was. Putin should not trust him on missile defense sweet talk. Russia has some serious work cut out in front regarding F22s and BMD bases propping up everywhere in Europe and very soon in Asia.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:36 pm

    Hahahahahaha... so they are actually going to build more of them!!!!

    Hilarious.

    Reopening production is never cheap... these planes will cost a fortune... without really changing the level of security for the US.

    In fact it will likely just increase international demand for the PAK FA and the eventual Chinese equivalent.
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    Post  Corrosion Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:44 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    this is more than Mig-29 for $29M
    IN mig29k costed around 42 million each.

    Mirage-2000 for $23M.
    It is not available anymore. Line closed.

    Multirole features can be made by adding range and changing engines etc.
    No idea what you meant here.

    More so because against their immediate adversaries Pak and China, they are sufficient currently so no need to buy $120M Rafaels or Eurofighters.
    No its not. A lot of Mig21 and Mig 27 are going to be retired, then there are Jaguars going to go as well. China is going to inducting J-10b, J-11b , nobody knows in what numbers. Also ramping up infrastructure in Tibet. Rafale is suited well here. It has a good ground strike potential as well.


    They need to add some solid backbone planes like Fulcrum, Mirage-2000s or F-16D etc.
    So Rafale doesnt have a solid backbone? scratch
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    Post  Corrosion Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:49 pm

    victor7 wrote:Currently F22s cost is $350M per unit but when exports take place after 2015, then it may come down to $150 per plane.
    You have any source that F-22 is going to be exported?

    Other than Russia, no other country can prevent F22 from being a devastating bomber to the military or economic facilities with no clue to the victim nation as to "what happened and from where".
    I thought F-22 cannot drop bombs.
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:28 pm

    Just did a goog on F22 export here is the link, not verified btw
    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409/

    Once Pakfa comes out and USAF sees it then they might go ahead with export version in order to reduce the unit cost and get some more for themselves.

    Regarding Fulcrums, F16s, Mirage etc vrs LCA, The general idea was to buy already proven and practiced machines rather than spend billions in coming up with something which is barely like J-10 or early block F16s. Choice was not limited to the three only.

    For a price of 1 Rafael, Indians could have gotten 3 very advanced quality jets from all around or even 2 Mig-35s with Aesa radars. Rafeal gives stealth, so what? How many stealths are needed to take out Chinese S-300s. I would have gone with two dozens at most.

    Does a squadron of Rafeal have a potential to eat up 1/3rd of Pakistan's Airforce? If so, then probably a good choice. But $120M for a plane for country like India, is little expensive, I think...........given the cheap guy that I am! geek

    F22 export model
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMSgwa46S8 pirat
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    Post  victor7 Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:54 pm

    Refusing Mig-35, you guys rejected an advanced block F16 with AESA for the cost of $50M tops of the tops.


    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/08/mig-35-brief-review.html

    Life cycle cost

    The service of MiG-35 is executed by condition, with condition assessment each 1000 flight hours up to max. 6000 hours of life (or 40 years of service).

    For comparison classic MiG-29 has only 2500 hours of life resource (or 20 years). Periodic routine service each 100 fly hours (1 year) is needed. Order works are each 200 f.h. (24 months). Plant MLU is needed on 800 and 1500 f.h. (9 and 17 years of service).
    With all the amortization in consideration the flight hour cost of MiG-35 is as 2.5 times cheaper than for classic MiG-29!

    There is an old calculation from the middle of 90th, for classic MiG-29's in Eastern Europe. Then the flight hour cost was $3000 for MiG-29 and $2000 for F-16 - it's without amortization cost.

    In 1994 – 1996 a new MiG-29's price was as $25 000 000. F-16's price was $18 600 000. MiG-29's airframe life was – 2,500 hours, or $10 000 for 1 hour. F-16's airframe life was – 8,000 hours, or $2,325 for hour. Mig-29's RD-33 engine of old serials has life of 800 hours, wile F-16's engine of that time has 2000 hours life. So, with all the life cycle expenditure the difference in flight hour cost between two planes was much higher: $15 500 for MiG-29 and about $5 900 for F-16! Even after the dollar/ruble parity has changed the prices very significant, single-engine F-16 remain to be more attractive in terms of lifecycle cost against classic MiG-29. With new MiG-35 coming, this advantage is going to totally diminish.
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    Post  TR1 Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:57 pm

    F-16 with AESA for 50 mill?

    lol yeah right.
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:36 am

    victor7 wrote:Just did a goog on F22 export here is the link, not verified btw
    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/06/airforce_tactical_061409/

    Once Pakfa comes out and USAF sees it then they might go ahead with export version in order to reduce the unit cost and get some more for themselves.

    There wont be many(I would say none, except US) countries around the world that can afford F-22 in any meaningful numbers for the economies of scale aspect to kick in. Although I agree many would like to get their hands on F-22 namely Israel, Japan, Australia etc. But I don't think they will order more than a squadron each, considering its price and life cycle costs. Then the question arises, will the US export its best fighter for a few billion dollars when it can very easily make that money on F-35 sales anyway. I don't see the logic in that if you look from US point of view.

    Regarding Fulcrums, F16s, Mirage etc vrs LCA, The general idea was to buy already proven and practiced machines rather than spend billions in coming up with something which is barely like J-10 or early block F16s. Choice was not limited to the three only.
    LCA will be cheaper in the long run. Not to mention the technologies that have been developed for the LCA and the lessons learned during this program are invaluable and will help in future projects such as AMCA and also FGFA upto certain extent. Also some technologies developed are already being used in other legacy platform upgrades in India. The idea wasn't to get a proven platform but a lightweight platform to replace hundreds of Mig21 that IAF operated. LCA is/will be cheaper to operate than Fulcrum or F-16, which are clearly in medium weight category according to IAF classification.

    For a price of 1 Rafael, Indians could have gotten 3 very advanced quality jets from all around or even 2 Mig-35s with Aesa radars. Rafeal gives stealth, so what? How many stealths are needed to take out Chinese S-300s. I would have gone with two dozens at most.
    First of all, Rafale is not stealthy. It has frontal reduced RCS and some other measures but I am not sure how useful it will be against ground radars. But it has good avionics namely Thales Spectra etc., and is already integrated with lots of ground attack weaponry. And since France will operate it for at least 3 more decades, it has a good upgrade potential. Although I personally wouldn't have minded Mig-35 either. But frankly speaking Rafale brings more to the table. And since it is going to be first ever export for Rafale if this deal goes through. India has a chance to get a very good deal and it will much cheaper than 120 million that you keep stating, since it will be built in India.

    F22 export model
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMSgwa46S8 pirat
    I am sure Australia will love it. Very Happy
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:52 am

    US export its best fighter for a few billion dollars when it can very easily make that money on F-35 sales anyway. I don't see the logic in that if you look from US point of view.

    And that is critical... F-22s sales will kill F-35 sales and as numbers for orders keep dropping for the F-35 it becomes more and more expensive.

    Sales of F-22s for export will not be big enough to reduce the price and lets face facts the US can barely afford the upkeep on them... for the Israeli air force or the Australian air force or even the Japanese air force the costs of maintainence will likely chew up the budget and kill other more valuable programs.

    It makes rather more sense for the US to let the F-22 die and work on an unmanned 6th generation aircraft they keep crapping on about... even if the first version has a pilot to reduce development costs.

    India has a chance to get a very good deal and it will much cheaper than 120 million that you keep stating, since it will be built in India.

    Building them locally usually increases costs, though there are plenty of benefits to that that outweigh the extra cost. Upskilling the local workforce, is just one example.

    I am sure Australia will love it.

    For the sort of money a single F-22 squadron would cost they would be better off buying an aircraft carrier or a couple of submarines.

    Imagine if Australia had accepted the Russian advances in the 1990s... they wouldn't have troops in Afghanistan, they could have Su-34s replacing their F-111s and instead of Super Hornets the money and effort they could be introducing their own Su-35 variant into service to replace their legacy Hornets and they likely would be working now on RVV-BD missiles. Instead of thinking about a Collins replacement from Europe they could be paying for the completion of an OSCAR II class vessel with an upgrade to replace the Granits with Yakhonts.

    They could even be collaborating with Russia on a variant of the PAK FA... if India didn't want them in on the FFGA then perhaps the Australians and the Brazilians could work together with the Russians on another variant of the PAK FA or perhaps a light 5th gen fighter with Mig?

    Ahh well.... if is one of the biggest words in the English language...
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    Post  ali.a.r Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:46 am

    I read that the RCS of the F-117 was dramatically increased when it opened its bomb bays because the stealth design was then compromised. If that is true, then that should mean that all stealth aircraft will lose their stealth as soon as they try to launch a weapon, because all the stealth aircraft in the world rely on their bomb bays since there aren't any stealthy missiles or munitions ( at least, I dont think there is ). Very Happy
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:41 am

    It is subject to the law of diminished returns.

    To get the highest stealth possible you need to have everything perfect... any deviation from perfection and the whole thing is ruined.

    I remember reading of an F-117 that was actually being tracked easily by civilian radar of all things.

    Turns out they had been doing maintainence on the aircraft and two screws were not screwed down fully and stuck out above the surface.

    It was enough to ruin the stealth of the aircraft.

    Might sound silly... the tips of two screws sticking up from an otherwise flat surface, but because of the frequency the radar was operating at the two screw tips were far enough apart to reflect the radar signal back to the radar source with a fairly strong signal that allowed the otherwise stealthy aircraft to be not only detected but also tracked.
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:55 am

    ali.r,

    But it is only for few seconds. After the doors are closed it will be back to its optimal condition. Whether the opposing aircraft can capitalize on that is different matter. All up that is a non issue IMO.

    IMHO it will be silly for the opposing aircraft pilot to play into the strengths of Stealth aircraft and go straight at him if its location is known even for a second. Non-stealth pilot has to innovate and use other devices he has such as EW equipment and Infra Red/ visual detectors, maybe even switch of his own radar for a while and go fly low, very low and try to get in close. If non stealth fighters are defending an airspace, then they can use ground assets and also fly much distance apart in order to triangulate. Networking data links will be very important, if stealth fighter is to be intercepted. The more closer a stealth fighter gets to a (advanced) 4th gen fighter, e.g. a latest model Flanker, its advantage diminishes. But non stealth fighter pilot has to play smart since he is at disadvantage and most likely will be detected first.

    But if a non-stealth or even stealth fighters are attacking an airspace defended by stealth fighters, then it will be very difficult for invading force. I think Pak-Fa has been designed the way it is as an interceptor, to defend airspace against stealth fighters/bombers.

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