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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    Mindstorm


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    Post  Mindstorm Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:20 pm

    a) Pakistan will be more than happy to offer US any bases plus anything in its arsenal, including waging a full fledged war against India, if given a direction and support by the US.

    Yes but i image that you are aware of the very huge difference in size and capabilities between India and Pakistan; moreover do you know Indian Air forces and Ground Forces would be spoilt for choice about what type of weapon employ to obliterate the bases used by USA for bring theirs assets in the theatre with all the equipment present at the moment.
    Against a nation over a certain power threshold ,not mount, but even only prepare an Air Campaign become literally a suicide mission.


    b) With F22 alone, US can do more than serious initial damage to any country, other than Russia, which would make their Air Forces very weak to carry on any big roles. Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.

    1) BrahMos is software limited at 300 km for the MTCR ,an agreement at which Russia and USA both adhere (and you should ask to yourselves why the major military powers at world are so concerned and strictly limit ,in theirs arms agreement, proliferation and presence abroad of long range cruise missiles or,even more, ballistic missiles ,but have no problem at all with F-22 ,PakFa ,F-35, J-20 etc...try to guess why Wink ) .

    2) What has to do F-22 with US carriers at 600 km ? From the carriers at maximum could come some F-18s in true...suicide missions Laughing Laughing
    F-22 should be based in ground airfield were would represent very soft,fixed targets to be easily destroyed even before take the air for the first mission.


    S-300s can detect stealth F22/B2 at what like 20km, that is far too near.

    Razz Razz Razz You should dedicate yourself to comical theatre ,you are very gifted for that.

    The new generation of long range, low band radars of Russian IAD can track and provide missile guidance against an F-22 at several hundreds of km far (at practically theirs maximum range), new generation of OTH radars (for Early Warning task and guide Air Force towards the menaces )can detect similar aircraft at several thousands of km of distance Razz Razz

    Let me guess those figure come from someone believing that F-22 has an RCS of 0,0001 (or other similar idiocies)...all around.... Isn't ? Laughing Laughing
    Sometimes i believe that if those persons would know how reality is immensely different from those low level fairy tales them would commit suicide instantly....




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    victor7


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    Post  victor7 Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:41 pm

    The new generation of long range, low band radars of Russian IAD can track and provide missile guidance against an F-22 at several hundreds of km far (at practically theirs maximum range), new generation of OTH radars (for Early Warning task and guide Air Force towards the menaces )can detect similar aircraft at several thousands of km of distance

    Is this also true for under jamming environment? What are these new generation goodies? Provide a name and we will do a internet research on them.

    moreover do you know Indian Air forces and Ground Forces would be spoilt for choice about what type of weapon employ to obliterate the bases used by USA for bring theirs assets in the theatre with all the equipment present at the moment.

    India doing a pre-emptive and that too on a theater where US is involved in or want to be? Do not think so, although pre-emptive makes a sense but do not expect that from India.

    Go ahead with many more assumptions. F22s can take off from Deigo Garcia and refuel mid air and go on to their mission.

    Accept it, other than Russia, all the countries will take it hard against F22s. They can prolong the attrition for a while and that's about it.
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    Post  ali.a.r Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:50 pm


    Go ahead with many more assumptions. F22s can take off from Deigo Garcia and refuel mid air and go on to their mission.

    And you really think that the Indians will just ignore F-22's near their territory?!


    Accept it, other than Russia, all the countries will take it hard against F22s. They can prolong the attrition for a while and that's about it.

    The F-22 has never seen real combat, let alone go up against any of the worlds more powerful air forces. (like it or not, India does come under this category) There is nothing that even remotely suggests what you so confidently assume. Have you not read any of Mindstorm s posts on this thread. (really informative and also credibly sourced posts, if I may add)

    Accept it, The F-22 has turned out to be little more than just a white elephant.
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    Post  TR1 Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:16 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    India had massive orders of Brahmos missiles and Akash SAM.

    Stop spending 10s of billion on Rafeals man! Divert a billion or two for research to cancel out F22s from going on rampage in your country. For now, good diplomacy is all you have got against the USAF and its cousins. pwnd

    That and the fact that F-22 pilots can't breathe.

    :p
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    victor7


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    Post  victor7 Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:54 pm

    And you really think that the Indians will just ignore F-22's near their territory?!

    No Country for Old Men............





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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:25 pm

    Pakistan will be more than happy to offer US any bases plus anything in its arsenal, including waging a full fledged war against India, if given a direction and support by the US.

    Pakistan will not risk direct retribution by India, their position vis India is only getting worse over time.


    b) With F22 alone, US can do more than serious initial damage to any country, other than Russia, which would make their Air Forces very weak to carry on any big roles. Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.

    Even at 250km that means when hung under an Su-30MKI its range is 2,250km...

    S-300s can detect stealth F22/B2 at what like 20km, that is far too near. In many a ways F22 is made for the Third World convenience, a total overwhelming factor.

    F-22s based in Pakistan would get a nuclear present via ballistic missile or cruise missile... or both.

    F-22s are not the most manouverable aircraft and AMRAAM is no super weapon either... India could simply overwhelm them with numbers and get in close and kill them with guns...

    Btw, US can fly from Kabul as it is already there plus they have a base in Deigo Garcia in India Ocean. Refuelers will meet them half the way. We have not even discussed the stealth cruise missiles variable. It is so easy for US that it is not even worth discussing.

    And how does the US deal with the millions of Indian nationals in the US that might not approve of US actions against their country?

    Taleban are largely ineffectual because they have no international support base to equip them. You start attacking India and watch Russian weapons flow to the Taleban and US time there will be short. Diego Garcia and refuelling tankers are targets... Russia wont lift a finger for Libya because Gaddafi was sucking up to Europe and not so much to Russia, so the lost earnings were not significant. If the US tried regime change in India then Russia will likely directly help the Indian forces...

    Divert a billion or two for research to cancel out F22s from going on rampage in your country. For now, good diplomacy is all you have got against the USAF and its cousins.

    You need to understand risk assessment. An example is an asteroid hitting the Earth. Hasn't happened recently and the chances are not huge for the next few years but the results being so catastrophic means it is worth investing some money into searching for such things and working through a few ideas to solve the problem.
    For India the chance of the US going for Regime change or attacking with F-22s is so low that it can be ignored.

    In fact the first country in the region to have a super stealthy 5th gen fighter... is India.

    India should not be lying awake at night worrying... that would be Pakistan and China, and I would think an Indian attack on those countries is less likely than a US attack on those countries... unless they provoke it it probably wont happen... and it would need to be a serious provocation.

    Air Force vise, India and China are not third world countries, they have decent Air Forces. But in total sphere on conditions of living etc. they still are Third World. When more than 50% of people live under $2 a day then what else can be said. No need to argue on this as I will not reply.

    So the US was a third world country in the 1930s? As was Germany?

    Even if 10% of India or Chinas populations were what the west would consider middle class then they would have more people in that group than the US has.

    The fact that 1% of the population have 80% of the wealth in the US suggests to me that the first world is actually worse than the third world in terms of pay equality... and it only seems to get worse.

    A gated community is an area where people with money live and the gates are to keep poor people out. You find them in South Africa because of the violence, but guess what... they are becoming common in the US too... where will that lead I wonder.

    Obsessed with F22? may be kind of scared.

    Don't be.

    The US wont attack Russia and if it did it would be the last thing it ever did and F-22s and PAK FAs and Su-35s and F-35s wont make any difference to the result.

    I do not know how do the commanders of various air forces go to sleep everyday with this 10kg stress on their heads.........just in case situation goes bad, then how will they deal with this F22. At present they can't, so better raise monthly salaries of their diplomats and foreign policy advisers.

    Nothing like the weight on the commanders of the USAF because the F-22 is an expensive dog they have no current or forseen future use for and it is costing them an enormous fortune just to keep them flying... they are currently grounded AFAIK because of problems with the oxygen unit that keeps the pilots alive...

    On top of that they have air campaigns in Afghanistan and a potential campaign over Syria and Iran to worry about...

    And I agree with Garry, classifying India and China as third world countries is, to put it mildly, weird. China is now the second largest economy in the world, while India is third, and both economies are growing fast while the US and most of the EU are either sluggish or at a standstill.

    I also don't like the Euro centric attitude that split white christian western countries, communist countries, and developing countries into three "worlds". There is only one world, and the term third world is meant to be derogatory. The fact is that Europe didn't just pinch gold and oil from the rest of the world to develop they pinched ideas and concepts and pretended they were their own. In fact compared to 19th century Europe it was pirates that had real democracy first...

    Is this also true for under jamming environment?

    A jammer is an active device that emits energy and can be targetted because of that with long range weapons.

    How long do you think before India decides to buy RVV-BD for their Su-30MKIs?

    The export model is restricted to 200km range but the domestic Russian model is known to reach 280km. There is no international law that prevents Russia from selling India the domestic model if they wanted to...

    Being able to kill jammers and inflight refueling aircraft, and of course JSTARS and AWACS aircraft at almost 300km would be useful... and what would the Americans be able to do about it?

    F22s can take off from Deigo Garcia and refuel mid air and go on to their mission.

    And when Indian fighters shoot down those tankers will it matter that the F-22s ditching in the sea were not shot down?

    Accept it, other than Russia, all the countries will take it hard against F22s. They can prolong the attrition for a while and that's about it.

    The F-22 is a difficult target, but when has it actually seen combat? There are so many unknowns about its potential, and mix that of course with the fact that the "NATO" war machine has never really taken on a modern well equipped enemy of any size in the modern era. Even Iran and Syria are rather more of a challenge than Libya or Iraq after a few decades of sanctions...

    Accept it, The F-22 has turned out to be little more than just a white elephant.

    The fact that it takes 40 hours of maintainence per hour of flight and for its price they probably could have bought 4-5 Minutemen ICBMs, which would be just as unusable, but far more effective and unstoppable.

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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:19 am

    it is worth investing some money into searching for such things and working through a few ideas to solve the problem.

    No research goes totally into the sinkhole. Even $100M thrown into radar research will give its dividends and throw off lots of offshoot technologies to benefit from. Any big money man or house in India should think of throwing investment into defense technologies as engineers, scientists, researchers, computer programmers etc. come real cheap in China and India. I mean cost of 1/3rd to 1/5th compared to the US/West.

    Russia should be on similar research path too, however in Russia's case research on how to cancel out BMDs and Aegis based missile killers will become prominent item by 2015. Killing off Topols in booster phase will be some blow to Russia's nuclear deterrence. What are Russians going to do, fly topols on a planes at 50K feet and fire off from there.
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    Post  Russian Patriot Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:28 am

    victor7 wrote:
    it is worth investing some money into searching for such things and working through a few ideas to solve the problem.

    No research goes totally into the sinkhole. Even $100M thrown into radar research will give its dividends and throw off lots of offshoot technologies to benefit from. Any big money man or house in India should think of throwing investment into defense technologies as engineers, scientists, researchers, computer programmers etc. come real cheap in China and India. I mean cost of 1/3rd to 1/5th compared to the US/West.

    Russia should be on similar research path too, however in Russia's case research on how to cancel out BMDs and Aegis based missile killers will become prominent item by 2015. Killing off Topols in booster phase will be some blow to Russia's nuclear deterrence. What are Russians going to do, fly topols on a planes at 50K feet and fire off from there.

    We are quite smart not make the mistake on counting on just one system, but the Americans count on Raptor and F-35 like there is no alternative...
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    victor7


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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:41 am

    This link is off topic...........or it is not! but it sure is scary, given what extra bucks will help pentagon with.....more F22s to begin with.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/a-spike-in-us-oil-production-is-about-to-make-it-the-new-middle-east-2012-3?nr_email_referer=1&utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Business%20Insider%20Select&utm_campaign=Business%20Insider%20Select%202012-03-21#ixzz1pn7UD59Y
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:06 am

    No research goes totally into the sinkhole. Indians are begging around the world for AESA radar, so even $100M thrown into radar research will give its dividends and throw off lots of offshoot technologies to benefit from.

    Sorry... what?

    The Indians spent 10 billion dollars on the MRCA competition with full technology transfer... why spend $100 million when they have bought the future French AESA for its Rafale?

    They are also investing billions in the FFGA aircraft with Russia which will also include AESA in X band and L band...

    Any big money man or house in India should think of throwing investment into defense technologies as engineers, scientists, researchers, computer programmers etc. come real cheap in China and India. I mean cost of 1/3rd to 1/5th compared to the US/West.

    It is a question of returns... even a big company can't afford to spend hundreds of million dollars on the off chance that what they manage to develop might eventually make them some money.

    It is like UAVs in Russia... for years we have seen models at airshows and for years the Russian military has looked and said these look nice, but never ordered or even tested them. Then 2008 comes along and all of a sudden they want fully operational products. Anybody who makes model aircraft could build a UAV though the autopilot could also be hand made the datalinks and of course the expensive cameras and stabilisation systems cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, so the models at airshows were shells... potential ideas.

    Once the Russian military got serious then real money can be spent, but even then it makes sense to design something that can be used by civilian customers, things like security, and for Russia then UAVs for boats to look at the ice in the water, or to check rail lines or power lines, or oil or gas pipelines that are hundreds or thousands of kms long offer a real opportunity for UAVs. Even with military UAVs there are a range of requirements including low noise and simple operation by people who are not pilots. There will also be speed and height and range requirements in addition to necessary payload requirements including night vision cameras or even laser range finders and target markers and even weapons or radiation sensors and radar arrays.

    The point is that if there is no direct request and agreed contract then it is an enormous risk that needs proper planning so that if the military decides to buy cheaper foreign models that there is a chance to sell to domestic civilian customers or state government users like MVD border patrol or FSB, to at least recover costs.

    Even just developing a new technology you need to create a production base that is not too big but also not too small that is properly tooled up and has the required skilled workers to make the final product after extensive testing of course. You need the factories and the sub contractors and materials that arrive on time and components and sub components made to a standard that is useful to you...

    We are quite smart not make the mistake on counting on just one system, but the Americans count on Raptor and F-35 like there is no alternative...

    Indeed no one system will be what the Americans like to call game changers. They do tend to get tunnel vision about certain things like the focus on Scud missiles or Iraqi Mig-29s for a while, or indeed Iraqi WMDs...

    The thing is that nothing operates in a vacuum, and taking out the supporting pieces in an attack force can reduce the effect of that attack force dramatically... to the point where it becomes almost ineffective.

    This link is off topic...........or it is not! but it sure is scary, given what extra bucks will help pentagon with.....more F22s to begin with.

    So what that article means is that the US is going to be dependent on Oil for a very long time to come... that is going to seriously weaken their ability to deal with the 21st Century when everyone else will be investing in renewable energy sources and the US will be stuck working out how to use oil efficiently to reduce emissions, or perhaps just trying to make lots of money so they can buy carbon credits and just keep polluting like they have in the past but they will be able to say they are carbon neutral because they bought carbon credits from Brazil or somewhere.
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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:38 am

    This link also means a $700B annual stimulus to the US economy. This amount they have been spending on buying oil from overseas. All good if it helps general population but knowing the US, we can predict that most of the dividends will be spent on Pentagon budget and in steam rolling other countries. That is where I have problem with the US policies. 75% of their lifestyle is I like, 15% might need some fine tuning, rest of the 10% is what calls for containment. Because this 10% trait creates lots of problems and kills lots of innocent people around the world.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:32 am

    If the US gets oil independence (which they could also get by investing in cleaner renewable energy resources... but the oil companie lobbies are just too powerful) then Saudi Arabia suddenly becomes less important in the scheme of things which will certainly effect the balance in the ME region.
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:34 am

    Victor7, First you have to talk about what would be objective of US attack on India. Is it regime change, that means occupation. Occupying a country of 1.2 billion people. I would suggest US make some serious allies within India, to attack those who oppose you...similarly like British did. But then Mughal Empire was disintegrating and almost dead, when the British attacked. I dont think India currently is in that position...it is strongest now it has ever been since independence from British. So regime change will be very difficult. Lets see India currently spends about 1.9% of GDP on defense. That is much less than it has capacity. Don't you think a regime that is sensing an attack on itself will arm itself against attack, since they have every chance to deter the opponent conventionally.

    Regarding Diego Garcia, India will have two nuclear submarines, one in few days, another one in an year or so. So things are not that simple. Indian Navy is no joke. USN will have losses, including Diego Garcia. I don't think any country in the region will give US bases. I don't expect Arabs to give US bases since they will be within Indian nuclear missile ranges. I don't think they hate India in general. They will be in no mood to fight open war with India. Neither is anybody in South East Asia. So US best chance will be Indian Ocean and Pakistan. So India will have clear area to defend unless China is with US, which is unlikely. Pakistan is well within range of almost all Indian missiles. You can also expect Indian Army in that action against Pakistan in that scenario. Unless Pakistan is suicidal, I would think they will stay out of it. F-22 alone wont do anything, whole US military machine will be required.

    BTW how will US congressmen gather support within US against India, where there is a big population of Indians who are quite patriotic I will say and wealthy as well. What about the money required to wage a war for regime change in India, where will that come from? Only way I can see is US go on massive worldwide and internal campaign in US against India and its regime and build up momentum and public support against India. That will take many years. Wont be easy either if India happens to be a so called largest democracy . India wont be silent during that time either. They will be making alliances as well. How about settle border disputes with China, agreeing with China on Tibet, and Dalai Lama.... for a under the table support in a war with US. US wont be comfortable if that happens, will it be? Enemy of my enemy is my friend. Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:02 am

    Don't you think a regime that is sensing an attack on itself will arm itself against attack, since they have every chance to deter the opponent conventionally.

    Especially a regime that controls nuclear weapons. I am pretty sure if push comes to shove the Russian president would be happy to publicly state that a US attack on India would be seen by Russia as an act of war...

    Occupying a country of 1.2 billion people. I would suggest US make some serious allies within India, to attack those who oppose you...similarly like British did.

    The problem equates to Iran in the sense that no matter what the opposition to the government the opposition to a US attack would be much stronger...

    So India will have clear area to defend unless China is with US, which is unlikely. Pakistan is well within range of almost all Indian missiles.

    China and India are not best buddies but the Chinese are not stupid and will realise if the Yanks are stupid enough to attack India then they could be next on the list. If China does not support India they will at the very least not interfere by helping the US.

    At the end of the day just the loss of the potential market of 1.2 billion Indians would likely seriously limit US growth and would have a huge effect on their economy.

    France will certainly not support any US effort against India... in fact France would probably make trillions because India would turn away from the US to upgrade its infrastructure...

    The problem with what ifs is that they must be grounded in reality otherwise they are little more than marketing fantasies...

    The US wont dominate the world with F-22s... or even B-2s... which strangely you hardly ever mention...
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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:42 pm

    first you have to talk about what would be objective of US attack on India. Is it regime change, that means occupation.

    Buddy, this US vrs India factor rose out of nowhere, I could not care less. My main concern is Russia has a good answer for F22s and be able to handle the Raptors as they want to i.e. DeTacK Detect, Track and Kill at any moment's notice. thumbsup
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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:57 pm

    What about the money required to wage a war for regime change in India, where will that come from?

    Some say the oil find in the US is worth $200 Trillion. That is huge amounts of money. The oil prices hovering over $70/barrel means extraction would be profitable for the US. Include that in calculations regarding various geopolitics topics in the coming decades.

    Russia: If oil prices go down Russian economy will be in a deficit.

    China: Several credit and pension type bubbles in vastly bloated economy. Their best hope is US demand is robust to keep them employed in factories.

    India: Vast internal inefficiencies, corruption, pollution, population hamper growth, infrastructure is 30 years behind the world, no mega export type industries, that country is just sustaining along some how.

    So if 21st century is American century again, then be ready for owners of MNCs in your countries to be implementing their rules and any resistance to that would create tensions and tussles of sorts.


    Last edited by victor7 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:03 pm

    China and India are not best buddies but the Chinese are not stupid and will realise if the Yanks are stupid enough to attack India then they could be next on the list. If China does not support India they will at the very least not interfere by helping the US.

    In late 90s after Serbia war, Russia wanted to make an alliance with China and India to have some solid backing against the NATO. Both China and India declined.

    I doubt that in the event Russia is at war with West, either China or India would come out openly and fight a military war on the side of Russia. Their armies look good only on paper but lack top grade variables. China is extremely selfish country and India is meek nation lacking will power to overcome its own internal problems.
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:34 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    So if 21st century is American century again,
    Hang on.... Slow down! World is going to be multi polar again in about 20 years from now, Oil or no oil in US. China particularly is just beginning to flex its muscles. For now they are just securing their energy supplies. They are people who use their brains to get things done. Of course you are not Chinese(Neither am I) and are outsider who gets his/her info about China from BBCs and CNNs of the world. I would say you have no real clue about China.
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    Post  Russian Patriot Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:34 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    China and India are not best buddies but the Chinese are not stupid and will realise if the Yanks are stupid enough to attack India then they could be next on the list. If China does not support India they will at the very least not interfere by helping the US.

    In late 90s after Serbia war, Russia wanted to make an alliance with China and India to have some solid backing against the NATO. Both China and India declined.

    I doubt that in the event Russia is at war with West, either China or India would come out openly and fight a military war on the side of Russia. Their armies look good only on paper but lack top grade variables. China is extremely selfish country and India is meek nation lacking will power to overcome its own internal problems.

    1. That was Serbia which has no common border with China or India , so that was logical at the time, correct no ,but logical.

    Russia on the other hand is bordered by China and a major weapon supplier of India as proven by Nerpa, Gorshkov, etc...

    If Russia was attacked, China would instantly be embroiled in the conflict at least for its own border security.

    We all know how Nato violates borders by "accident".

    India : India will not want its alternative supplier out of the picture ( they are feed up with U.S pressure about Iran and Kashmir) so to show the West that its not its toy, India will help Russia with hopes of more contracts in return..

    2.
    Their armies look good only on paper but lack top grade variables. China is extremely selfish country and India is meek nation lacking will power to overcome its own internal problems.


    This statement is so filled with hate, I would advise you to be more tolerant of these great nations in their own right. Plus if China was selfish , why does it help the U.S by buying their debt, when no one else wants too.


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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 pm

    Plus if China was selfish , why does it help the U.S by buying their debt, when no one else wants too.

    Because US is powerful and buys ship loads of Chinese goods. Without US demand, China would be in a much worst shape. It is China's hostile behavior which stops India from making an open geopolitical alliance. There is nothing wrong making an alliance for added security. In Cold War times, it was the matter of ideology with west afraid that USSR was out to turn whole world into communist. Now no such expansionist fear now. However, China has shown its bully behavior to not only small countries but even to Russia where Chinese are covertly taking over the eastern lands.

    In 20 years, it is said that Africa and its mineral resources will become a hot economy while China and India will somewhat cool off after reaching some middle level of economics. They were third world nations so they had to be hot on growth for few decades to add this or that to their inhouses.

    The world is changing so fast, that for those out of the real information loop, it is dangerous to make predictions even 2 years down the road.
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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:04 pm

    Corrosion wrote:
    Hang on.... Slow down! World is going to be multi polar again in about 20 years from now, Oil or no oil in US. China particularly is just beginning to flex its muscles. For now they are just securing their energy supplies. They are people who use their brains to get things done. Of course you are not Chinese(Neither am I) and are outsider who gets his/her info about China from BBCs and CNNs of the world. I would say you have no real clue about China.

    One way to predict economics is via population demographics i.e. age of the population. Where people are young there are more industries in demand like cars, houses etc., unlike old nations like Japan many industries nearly dissappear and are replaced by retirement homes, medicine and care etc. That is why US does not stop immigration both legal and illegal as it adds to their demographic demands. Left alone, US population has aged alot to be called a young vibrant country.

    Chinese demographics is on the oldish trend in 20 years. There are lots of bubbles in Chinese accounting books, items that were inflated just to make look good. I am not saying China is done and ready to crash, but that is going to be a self made and sustaining superpower like the US is a lot in question. BRICS nations will at best be mega regional economies and if they strife to become phantom superpower like USSR i.e. only in military, then they will face natural correction from the market forces and economic cycles.

    The basic point is maintain self esteem and respect and do not let countries or blocs like US/NATO to trample on you but do not try to trample on them either (which BRICS type nations do not anyways). Live and Let Live should be the formula. Hope US understands that sooner before some dark forces like WWIII nonsense is unleashed.

    Items like F22s, B2s etc. etc. give false signals to minds in power and wrong decisions lead to common person hurting. That is why cancelling out these Ego-Builder technologies is very important........for the good of all. Very Happy
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    Post  Corrosion Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:09 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    In late 90s after Serbia war, Russia wanted to make an alliance with China and India to have some solid backing against the NATO. Both China and India declined.

    I doubt that in the event Russia is at war with West, either China or India would come out openly and fight a military war on the side of Russia. Their armies look good only on paper but lack top grade variables. China is extremely selfish country and

    You are comparing NATO attack on Serbia with NATO attack on Russia. I would like to see(not like to see) NATO attack on Russia and see the world go upside down. I would particularly like to see the real strength of NATO to stay together and the courage Euros have in taking on Russia. I don't think Germany, France and some others in Europe have any will to fight a potential nuclear war with Russia and die for almost nothing, to put it mildly. US better get smart and start playing some smart and secret games, all I am seeing is US getting desperate as Empire walls are showing cracks. You have to provide proof that US public is willing to take on losses of several magnitude more of what it is getting now. Only then I will take your statements of US taking on Russia seriously.

    India is meek nation lacking will power to overcome its own internal problems.
    Same can be said about US, if you are truthful to even recognize US internal problems. So your are judging Indian strength on a scale made in US. There is different outlook on things, different geography, different people, different culture, different items of importance if you know what I mean.

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    Post  Corrosion Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:14 pm

    victor7 wrote:sustaining superpower like the US
    Laughing

    There are lots of bubbles in Chinese accounting books
    What about bubbles in US accounting books.
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    Post  victor7 Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:20 pm

    Only then I will take your statements of US taking on Russia seriously.

    US is clever, it wants to break Russia the way it broke off the USSR....i.e. by itself. All sorts of pressure, economic isolation, sanctions against allies and attacking them etc. etc. are the steps in the direction of breaking Russia up.

    US knows the cost of fighting Russia from outside, that is why they are working from inside out right now. Hope you get the meaning of what I am trying to say. Ex: 60,000 Russians died from drug overdose last year. These drugs were brought from Aghanistan. With the mighty US Army in Afghanistan, how come they can't control the drug flow. Because they have openly rejected to do so. This is one example of how to kill a nation from inside.
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    Post  Russian Patriot Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:30 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    Only then I will take your statements of US taking on Russia seriously.

    US is clever, it wants to break Russia the way it broke off the USSR....i.e. by itself. All sorts of pressure, economic isolation, sanctions against allies and attacking them etc. etc. are the steps in the direction of breaking Russia up.

    US knows the cost of fighting Russia from outside, that is why they are working from inside out right now. Hope you get the meaning of what I am trying to say. Ex: 60,000 Russians died from drug overdose last year. These drugs were brought from Aghanistan. With the mighty US Army in Afghanistan, how come they can't control the drug flow. Because they have openly rejected to do so. This is one example of how to kill a nation from inside.

    That is true but the U.S is also killing its own men in the process...


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