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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:24 am

    The difference is vrs zombi Third World nations under sanctions, USAF usually comes out with nearly negligible losses. Vrs other Third World nations like India, China, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan etc. etc. USAF might end up with at most couple dozen losses but in 2-3-4 weeks it will be total air superiority and from there on same usual stuff.

    Other than Russia no country on earth can face one on one to USAF and hope to come out ahead. Even Russia will have to use nukes within half an hour of the start to kill off the F22/F35 bases and other main stuff like Top 100 targets on the list including 11 Aircraft Carriers that project US power all around the world.

    Btw, did I mention this before or not.......here it goes

    Q: Which is the Second Largest and Powerful Air Force in the World after USAF?
    A: It is the US Navy

    Hope you get the idea now! Idea
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:05 am

    I think Indians might be fielding a decent air force in 2-3 years.

    I would suggest they already have a decent air force and it will only get better.

    Even an upgraded Mig-21 can be useful if you recognise its limitations and use it the right way...

    One place I read that according to general view in USAF, the Rafaels are the third best plane out there behind F22, F35.

    I personally think the Typhoon will probably be better than the Rafale in air to air, though not by a large amount, but in close combat neither have thrust vectoring...

    Rafael's Stealth factor? May be Indians have reserved these to deal with Pakistan, while Flankers and Fulcrums are dealing with China.

    Unless those Rafales are going to be operating with their gun only the stealth factor is largely imaginary when external weapon loads are carried...

    I would suggest that the Chinese S-300 SAMs would require stealth rather more than anything Pakistan operates...

    The article from flight global says Mig-21s can be bought for $100K. At that price with $2M upgrades, one can have a fighter as capable as middle of the block F16s. Countries like Syria, Egypt, Iran etc. should seriously think on these lines.

    Well China already offers the JF-17 which is a highly modified Mig-21 that is heavily updated which would be a useful relatively cheap aircraft, but I personally think spending a little more money to get something a little more sophisticated would be worth the extra money.

    Otherwise the real best option would be to take the pilot and cockpit out of a Mig-29, take off the vertical tail and horizontal tail surfaces and increase the wing size and increase the number of weapon pylons, and fit thrust vector engines to make it flyable. Reshape the fuselage to make it much deeper so the bottom of the aircraft is flat between the engine nacelles and put the intakes together with s shaped intakes hiding the engines from the front.

    You end up with perhaps a subsonic only aircraft that can carry 10 BVR AAMs and has a decent radar and IRST system that is a UCAV and as LO as any Euro canard. Because there are no humans on board it can be redesigned to pull 15gs which should allow it to out turn most other manned aircraft in the sky as well as many missile types too.

    USAF might end up with at most couple dozen losses but in 2-3-4 weeks it will be total air superiority and from there on same usual stuff.

    If those countries learned lessons from Serbia who lasted more than 8 weeks and had to be forced to the table politically...

    BTW mildly offensive that you consider China and India to be third world countries, and second of all on their home turf I would expect the USAF would get whipped and they know it and so they would not even try a full scale invasion.

    on the list including 11 Aircraft Carriers that project US power all around the world.

    That is rubbish for a start... to get all 11 carrier groups within striking range of Russia would make those carrier groups VERY vulnerable to being sunk. Activating all 11 carrier groups wont happen either because of the 11 carriers only about 5-6 will be operational at any one time... the rest will be in training or in overhaul.

    Q: Which is the Second Largest and Powerful Air Force in the World after USAF?
    A: It is the US Navy

    What is the only Air Force that can be sunk? The US Navy Air Force.

    Hope you get the idea now!

    Air power is over rated by the US.

    The strategic bombing campaign by the west during WWII killed more Germans than the Soviets killed, but the Soviets were killing the German soldiers... their bestest and their brightest, while western strategic bombing was killing women and children and old people...

    What use are F-35s and F-22s in Afghanistan? Or indeed in Iraq?
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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 am

    Unless those Rafales are going to be operating with their gun only the stealth factor is largely imaginary when external weapon loads are carried...

    Might be wrong but RCS of Rafeal is .01 and Typhoon is .001. That is stealth enough, especially for IAF's immeidate needs. Although China is coming along with its J-20 but it won't be around until Pak-fa comes out...........so that Chinese can copy it. Am really SICK of China stealing and copying technologies all around. Vrs Russia, they do it openly.



    Activating all 11 carrier groups wont happen either because of the 11 carriers only about 5-6 will be operational at any one time... the rest will be in training or in overhaul.

    Activate or not, Near or far, if Russia gets into war with US, all AC's of USN will have to be sunk. Top 100 Target List should have 11 slots well reserved.



    What is the only Air Force that can be sunk? The US Navy Air Force.

    LOL, never thought of that, good observation!



    What use are F-35s and F-22s in Afghanistan? Or indeed in Iraq?

    Right now US is playing nice guys pretty much. If needed even legacy aircrafts can inflict lots of pain on the hostile elements in and around Afganistan.........just like firebombing of Dresden that killed 100K people. That was more than Hiroshima nuke.

    One guy told me that US spends $10B a month in Afganistan which means they have spent up $500B easy so far. Even if they had decided to invest or donate $20B towards Afganistan industries to keep people employed and busy, that might have done much more good to that country and also for the US to get good name in the Muslim world. But politically it would have been a disaster for any President to give aid to the country that caused the 911 attacks.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:27 am

    Might be wrong but RCS of Rafeal is .01 and Typhoon is .001.

    A clean Rafale or Typhoon might get down to 1m if it is very lucky. Put external weapons and external fuel tanks and its RCS will go to 2-5m depending on the load.

    Less than 1m RCS requires internal weapons and a from scratch stealth design... the PAK FA and F-22 and F-35 will be in the 0.5-0.1m RCS range if we are talking average and not peak... and peak is meaningless.

    Am really SICK of China stealing and copying technologies all around. Vrs Russia, they do it openly.

    If you are behind you can take a leap forward by copying, but you need to develop a culture that just uses copying as a means to learn the fundamentals so you can grow and design your own based on your own talent.

    Everyone copies, but most are copying themselves... ie building on the achievements of their predecessors.

    if Russia gets into war with US, all AC's of USN will have to be sunk.

    US carrier goups in the south atlantic are no threat to Russia and don't need to be sunk...


    Right now US is playing nice guys pretty much.

    Against countries like Afghanistan and Iraq their uber expensive F-35s and F-22s would offer no performance advantage over the legasy aircraft they actually used that cost a fraction of the new more expensive aircraft.

    In fact the legasy aircraft could probably carry much heavier payloads over greater distances.

    Of course a US attack on Iran could easily result in Iran giving away MANPADS and ATGMs over its borders with Afghanistan and Iraq and the result will be suddenly very painful for US forces in both countries as helicopter transport is preferred in both countries to evade IEDs. Hundreds or thousands of MANPADS cannot be stopped by air power, and will make helicopter transport impossible so the two alternatives is trucks... which would be vulnerable to IED attack and ATGM attack, and the other option... to leave.

    So a small chance to slightly damage Iran will result in total loss in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus most likely the Iranian government will realise there is no chance the IAEA will let it continue with nuclear civilian power development so it will need to go it alone... and if it is going it alone it might as well start developing nuclear weapons so it can defend itself... In other words it will make things much worse for the US.

    If the US had supported the Vietnamese against the French colonial rule then the North would likely never have had to turn to the Soviet Union for help. If the US had supported Castro throwing out the American Mob and the white european land owners that owned all the sugar cane fields and kept the local cubans as plantation workers and butlers/slaves, then he would not have needed to turn to the Soviet Union for help. Castro was a Nationalist who wanted to move the cuban people away from slavery to their colonial masters and into positions of power.

    If the US had helped him there would never have been a communist cuba.

    There are plenty of countries in central and south and even north america where the natives are called indians who are generally poor and looked down upon by the generally white colonial powers generally from Europe... spanish, portugues, and even french and british.

    Hugo Chavez is not a communist, but his nationalist ideas that native Venezuelans should get more benefit from the oil under the ground there, so that the majority of poor natives can get the benefits that would otherwise go to the already rich landowners who already have power and money. Th CIA didn't try to overthrow Chavez because he is a communist, they tried to overthrow him because their best friends are the white rich people of european descent that colonised the region and are busy pinching all its resources.

    Regarding the bombings during WWII the reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets for the nukes was because they had no military value and had been left largely untouched by bombers. They selected them because there was a maximum number of innocent civilians to kill, rather than any military purpose.

    It should be kept in mind that unlike Dresden, in both Japanese cities there was little understanding about radiation and as soon as the war ended the US military swooped in and investigated the effects of their handiwork because a good understanding of what happens in a nuclear attack on a populated area and the subsequent deaths is useful for their future planning for future nuclear wars. After the attacks about three times the number killed in the initial blasts died from exposure to radiation in each case, so in both cases we are talking about more Japanese civilians being killed than American forces killed in the whole war.


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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:37 am

    Typhoon doesn't have an RCS anywhere near .001, clean or loaded. Neither does Rafale.

    Those are fantasies based on marketing and propoganda. I doubt they are even true from a very limited angle and radar spectrum.
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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Corrosion what info leacked ?
    For example, 21:1 thing and the issue of Fratricide where MKI shot down friendlies due to not been networked(secrecy etc.). And then Indians also leaked that USAF had similar number of Fratricide incidents. Now figure the reasons for that. Smile



    Last edited by Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:45 am

    victor7 wrote:
    I would add that in real world USAF can outnumber IAF by 5 to 1 in terms of birds available for a fight.

    Lets say if USAF attacks India (Indian airspace). I would assume IAF can throw about 400 air defence fighters at USAF. Can USAF throw 2000(5x) fighters at IAF in Indian airspace. First question is where those 2000 fighters come from. You wont be sending almost entire USAF to fight on other side of globe. So it is much complex, nor do I think there will be a fire fight between USA and India anytime soon. Wink

    The video showed their Air Vice Marshall and two Group Caps speaking high about their performances. I would accept that as a gesture of gained confidence because Indians do not thump their chests and post false numbers

    Actually that video came afterwards and I think IAF would have felt that they needed to clarify atleast to Indian media/public about their pilots and the equipment they field and what happened actually. Some of the Indian responses simply wouldnt have been there if Col.'s leaked video did not come out in the first place.

    My last post on this Col. video issue.


    Last edited by Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:04 am

    Typhoon doesn't have an RCS anywhere near .001, clean or loaded. Neither does Rafale.

    Those are fantasies based on marketing and propoganda. I doubt they are even true from a very limited angle and radar spectrum.

    If either aircraft managed that level of stealth with minor changes at the design stage then there would be little point in building dedicated stealth aircraft that cost 2-3 times more.

    Lets say if USAF attacks India (Indian airspace). I would assume IAF can throw about 400 air defence fighters at USAF. Can USAF throw 1600(5x) fighters at IAF in Indian airspace. First question is where those 1600 fighters come from. You wont be sending almost entire USAF to fight on other side of globe. So it is much complex, nor do I think there will be a fire fight between USA and India anytime soon.

    And this is critical because if the US can't get land bases for the attack (I doubt Pakistan would offer up bases because that would drag them directly into the conflict and could lead to Indian preemptive strikes on their airfields) then you can remove the F-22 and the F-35 from the equation and the combat will be between Indian Rafales and Su-30MKIs and upgraded Mig-29s and M2Ks which are all very capable and potent aircraft against F-18s... now the F-18 is a good aircraft but it doesn't outrange the Su-30MKI so the US carriers would need to be close enough to their targets for their Hornets to reach them and that will put those ship within Brahmos range.... Losing a few planes is one thing but imagine a dedicated air, surface and subsurface attack on a US carrier group that leads to ships sunk? That is a bit different from losing a few planes don't you agree?
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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:23 am

    India had massive orders of Brahmos missiles and Akash SAM. I would even say that in real world IAF is not designed to take on USAF, and if things come to that they sense an US attack in near future, IAF will be prepared for that. Until then to prepare your self for something that wont happen and waste your countries resources is almost criminal. Not that US will be attacking in a day or so. These things need prepration and will require public opinion formation within USA. India will have time to induct various other systems and train crew to operate them. How about hundreds of S-xxx SAMs etc and putting in place extra ground radars. Defence is relatively easier than offense because you are fighting on home turf, but only disadvantage is you are not on front foot and have to keep prepared all the time and waste resources.

    I think this thread should return to its original topic now.
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    Mindstorm

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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:11 am

    The difference is vrs zombi Third World nations under sanctions, USAF usually comes out with nearly negligible losses. Vrs other Third World nations like India, China, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan etc. etc. USAF might end up with at most couple dozen losses but in 2-3-4 weeks it will be total air superiority and from there on same usual stuff.


    You live completely disconneted from reality ,do you know that ?
    Third World opponents : China or India ? Laughing Laughing Laughing


    ...might end up with at most couple dozen losses ?

    Against Iraq (clear ?... I r a q ...) NATO coalition aircraft losses was of almost 40 aircraft (38 for precision), and here we talk of a nation with an antediluvian IAD -Kari- (moreover designed for repel attack by at maximum 60-70 aircraft contemporaneously from East and West of Iraq atacked by the NATO from the South thanks to the airbases offered by Saudi Arabia) composed entirely of SAM system from 15 to 30 years old moreover of downgraded export models. Laughing Laughing
    Do you want to talk of Saddam's Air Forces with its.....8 long range bombers ( export Tu-16s and H-6s moreover uncapable to employ any type of long range stand off missiles ) or its ....29 MiG-29 ,always of the older "monkey model" type of which omly 18 operable . Must continue ?

    The sad reality is that if Iraq would have been not a strong opponent ,but even only a middly powerful opponent ,an Air Campaign would have been impossible even only to prepare.
    NATO Coalition for mount its attack against...Iraq....was forced to ask to Saudi Arabia the permission to employ its seaport and airfields for transfer all the Ground Forces and Air Forces equipment and from there launch its attack (a logistical operation more than 6 months long !!). [b]All this equipment would have been totally lost
    , even before the basic readiness and operability would have been established ,in a matter of hours ,if Iraq would be equipped with any type of advanced weaponry ground or air based ,which obviously, to the exact contrary of NATO Forces, would have been already present and ready in the theatre of operation.


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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:07 pm

    Two points:

    a) Pakistan will be more than happy to offer US any bases plus anything in its arsenal, including waging a full fledged war against India, if given a direction and support by the US.

    b) With F22 alone, US can do more than serious initial damage to any country, other than Russia, which would make their Air Forces very weak to carry on any big roles. Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.

    The best bet is therefore to play Serbia and hide your valuable assets and let adversary waste its power and resources.

    S-300s can detect stealth F22/B2 at what like 20km, that is far too near. In many a ways F22 is made for the Third World convenience, a total overwhelming factor.

    Btw, US can fly from Kabul as it is already there plus they have a base in Deigo Garcia in India Ocean. Refuelers will meet them half the way. We have not even discussed the stealth cruise missiles variable. It is so easy for US that it is not even worth discussing.
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    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:59 pm


    Diego Garcia is just a few hundred kilometers south of my home atoll. The atoll has no real strategic importance compared to the rest of my country, the Maldives, but because of its geographical proximity to Diego Garcia, a fifth of our total military personnel are based there. There is also a very expensive radar system (Gan) stationed there, that sucks up more than half of our defense budget. All of that just because no one is certain what the Americans are going to do next, and also because no one knows who might decide to attack Diego Garcia and conveniently decide to go through our territory to get there.

    There is an agreement with India for them to build their own adjacent radar system. There are also ongoing talks with Russia for joint use of the Gan radar, in exchange for an arms deal (Mi-17 helicopters at a cheap price). So soon, both the Indians and the Russians may well have powerful monitoring systems a few hundred kilometers from Diego Garcia.

    And believe me, if you're not a tourist looking for some relaxation, the Maldives is not a place for you to stay longer than a few weeks. And yet the Indians, and likely the Russians, are willing to spend millions here, just so they could keep a closer eye on Diego Garcia. And apart from a B-2 making an emergency landing there, there have not been any stealth aircraft there at all. So imagine what they lengths countries would go to, if F-22's were based withing credible distances from their borders.
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:01 pm

    India had massive orders of Brahmos missiles and Akash SAM.

    Stop spending 10s of billion on Rafeals man! Divert a billion or two for research to cancel out F22s from going on rampage in your country. For now, good diplomacy is all you have got against the USAF and its cousins. pwnd
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    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:16 pm

    victor7 no offense intended, but I think you are obsessed with the F-22. There is really no problem with that, but I think you are starting to cross the line in your support for it.

    Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.
    An aircraft can carry the brahmos, (Im no expert in aviation) yet I think that even a single fighter, skimming above the waves can get close to a carrier, launch the missile and then scoot.

    And I agree with Garry, classifying India and China as third world countries is, to put it mildly, weird. China is now the second largest economy in the world, while India is third, and both economies are growing fast while the US and most of the EU are either sluggish or at a standstill.
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:25 pm

    And I agree with Garry, classifying India and China as third world countries is, to put it mildly, weird. China is now the second largest economy in the world, while India is third, and both economies are growing fast while the US and most of the EU are either sluggish or at a standstill.

    Air Force vise, India and China are not third world countries, they have decent Air Forces. But in total sphere on conditions of living etc. they still are Third World. When more than 50% of people live under $2 a day then what else can be said. No need to argue on this as I will not reply.

    Obsessed with F22? may be kind of scared.

    I do not know how do the commanders of various air forces go to sleep everyday with this 10kg stress on their heads.........just in case situation goes bad, then how will they deal with this F22. At present they can't, so better raise monthly salaries of their diplomats and foreign policy advisers.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:20 pm

    a) Pakistan will be more than happy to offer US any bases plus anything in its arsenal, including waging a full fledged war against India, if given a direction and support by the US.

    Yes but i image that you are aware of the very huge difference in size and capabilities between India and Pakistan; moreover do you know Indian Air forces and Ground Forces would be spoilt for choice about what type of weapon employ to obliterate the bases used by USA for bring theirs assets in the theatre with all the equipment present at the moment.
    Against a nation over a certain power threshold ,not mount, but even only prepare an Air Campaign become literally a suicide mission.


    b) With F22 alone, US can do more than serious initial damage to any country, other than Russia, which would make their Air Forces very weak to carry on any big roles. Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.

    1) BrahMos is software limited at 300 km for the MTCR ,an agreement at which Russia and USA both adhere (and you should ask to yourselves why the major military powers at world are so concerned and strictly limit ,in theirs arms agreement, proliferation and presence abroad of long range cruise missiles or,even more, ballistic missiles ,but have no problem at all with F-22 ,PakFa ,F-35, J-20 etc...try to guess why Wink ) .

    2) What has to do F-22 with US carriers at 600 km ? From the carriers at maximum could come some F-18s in true...suicide missions Laughing Laughing
    F-22 should be based in ground airfield were would represent very soft,fixed targets to be easily destroyed even before take the air for the first mission.


    S-300s can detect stealth F22/B2 at what like 20km, that is far too near.

    Razz Razz Razz You should dedicate yourself to comical theatre ,you are very gifted for that.

    The new generation of long range, low band radars of Russian IAD can track and provide missile guidance against an F-22 at several hundreds of km far (at practically theirs maximum range), new generation of OTH radars (for Early Warning task and guide Air Force towards the menaces )can detect similar aircraft at several thousands of km of distance Razz Razz

    Let me guess those figure come from someone believing that F-22 has an RCS of 0,0001 (or other similar idiocies)...all around.... Isn't ? Laughing Laughing
    Sometimes i believe that if those persons would know how reality is immensely different from those low level fairy tales them would commit suicide instantly....




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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:41 pm

    The new generation of long range, low band radars of Russian IAD can track and provide missile guidance against an F-22 at several hundreds of km far (at practically theirs maximum range), new generation of OTH radars (for Early Warning task and guide Air Force towards the menaces )can detect similar aircraft at several thousands of km of distance

    Is this also true for under jamming environment? What are these new generation goodies? Provide a name and we will do a internet research on them.

    moreover do you know Indian Air forces and Ground Forces would be spoilt for choice about what type of weapon employ to obliterate the bases used by USA for bring theirs assets in the theatre with all the equipment present at the moment.

    India doing a pre-emptive and that too on a theater where US is involved in or want to be? Do not think so, although pre-emptive makes a sense but do not expect that from India.

    Go ahead with many more assumptions. F22s can take off from Deigo Garcia and refuel mid air and go on to their mission.

    Accept it, other than Russia, all the countries will take it hard against F22s. They can prolong the attrition for a while and that's about it.
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    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:50 pm


    Go ahead with many more assumptions. F22s can take off from Deigo Garcia and refuel mid air and go on to their mission.

    And you really think that the Indians will just ignore F-22's near their territory?!


    Accept it, other than Russia, all the countries will take it hard against F22s. They can prolong the attrition for a while and that's about it.

    The F-22 has never seen real combat, let alone go up against any of the worlds more powerful air forces. (like it or not, India does come under this category) There is nothing that even remotely suggests what you so confidently assume. Have you not read any of Mindstorm s posts on this thread. (really informative and also credibly sourced posts, if I may add)

    Accept it, The F-22 has turned out to be little more than just a white elephant.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:16 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    India had massive orders of Brahmos missiles and Akash SAM.

    Stop spending 10s of billion on Rafeals man! Divert a billion or two for research to cancel out F22s from going on rampage in your country. For now, good diplomacy is all you have got against the USAF and its cousins. pwnd

    That and the fact that F-22 pilots can't breathe.

    :p
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:54 pm

    And you really think that the Indians will just ignore F-22's near their territory?!

    No Country for Old Men............





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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:25 pm

    Pakistan will be more than happy to offer US any bases plus anything in its arsenal, including waging a full fledged war against India, if given a direction and support by the US.

    Pakistan will not risk direct retribution by India, their position vis India is only getting worse over time.


    b) With F22 alone, US can do more than serious initial damage to any country, other than Russia, which would make their Air Forces very weak to carry on any big roles. Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.

    Even at 250km that means when hung under an Su-30MKI its range is 2,250km...

    S-300s can detect stealth F22/B2 at what like 20km, that is far too near. In many a ways F22 is made for the Third World convenience, a total overwhelming factor.

    F-22s based in Pakistan would get a nuclear present via ballistic missile or cruise missile... or both.

    F-22s are not the most manouverable aircraft and AMRAAM is no super weapon either... India could simply overwhelm them with numbers and get in close and kill them with guns...

    Btw, US can fly from Kabul as it is already there plus they have a base in Deigo Garcia in India Ocean. Refuelers will meet them half the way. We have not even discussed the stealth cruise missiles variable. It is so easy for US that it is not even worth discussing.

    And how does the US deal with the millions of Indian nationals in the US that might not approve of US actions against their country?

    Taleban are largely ineffectual because they have no international support base to equip them. You start attacking India and watch Russian weapons flow to the Taleban and US time there will be short. Diego Garcia and refuelling tankers are targets... Russia wont lift a finger for Libya because Gaddafi was sucking up to Europe and not so much to Russia, so the lost earnings were not significant. If the US tried regime change in India then Russia will likely directly help the Indian forces...

    Divert a billion or two for research to cancel out F22s from going on rampage in your country. For now, good diplomacy is all you have got against the USAF and its cousins.

    You need to understand risk assessment. An example is an asteroid hitting the Earth. Hasn't happened recently and the chances are not huge for the next few years but the results being so catastrophic means it is worth investing some money into searching for such things and working through a few ideas to solve the problem.
    For India the chance of the US going for Regime change or attacking with F-22s is so low that it can be ignored.

    In fact the first country in the region to have a super stealthy 5th gen fighter... is India.

    India should not be lying awake at night worrying... that would be Pakistan and China, and I would think an Indian attack on those countries is less likely than a US attack on those countries... unless they provoke it it probably wont happen... and it would need to be a serious provocation.

    Air Force vise, India and China are not third world countries, they have decent Air Forces. But in total sphere on conditions of living etc. they still are Third World. When more than 50% of people live under $2 a day then what else can be said. No need to argue on this as I will not reply.

    So the US was a third world country in the 1930s? As was Germany?

    Even if 10% of India or Chinas populations were what the west would consider middle class then they would have more people in that group than the US has.

    The fact that 1% of the population have 80% of the wealth in the US suggests to me that the first world is actually worse than the third world in terms of pay equality... and it only seems to get worse.

    A gated community is an area where people with money live and the gates are to keep poor people out. You find them in South Africa because of the violence, but guess what... they are becoming common in the US too... where will that lead I wonder.

    Obsessed with F22? may be kind of scared.

    Don't be.

    The US wont attack Russia and if it did it would be the last thing it ever did and F-22s and PAK FAs and Su-35s and F-35s wont make any difference to the result.

    I do not know how do the commanders of various air forces go to sleep everyday with this 10kg stress on their heads.........just in case situation goes bad, then how will they deal with this F22. At present they can't, so better raise monthly salaries of their diplomats and foreign policy advisers.

    Nothing like the weight on the commanders of the USAF because the F-22 is an expensive dog they have no current or forseen future use for and it is costing them an enormous fortune just to keep them flying... they are currently grounded AFAIK because of problems with the oxygen unit that keeps the pilots alive...

    On top of that they have air campaigns in Afghanistan and a potential campaign over Syria and Iran to worry about...

    And I agree with Garry, classifying India and China as third world countries is, to put it mildly, weird. China is now the second largest economy in the world, while India is third, and both economies are growing fast while the US and most of the EU are either sluggish or at a standstill.

    I also don't like the Euro centric attitude that split white christian western countries, communist countries, and developing countries into three "worlds". There is only one world, and the term third world is meant to be derogatory. The fact is that Europe didn't just pinch gold and oil from the rest of the world to develop they pinched ideas and concepts and pretended they were their own. In fact compared to 19th century Europe it was pirates that had real democracy first...

    Is this also true for under jamming environment?

    A jammer is an active device that emits energy and can be targetted because of that with long range weapons.

    How long do you think before India decides to buy RVV-BD for their Su-30MKIs?

    The export model is restricted to 200km range but the domestic Russian model is known to reach 280km. There is no international law that prevents Russia from selling India the domestic model if they wanted to...

    Being able to kill jammers and inflight refueling aircraft, and of course JSTARS and AWACS aircraft at almost 300km would be useful... and what would the Americans be able to do about it?

    F22s can take off from Deigo Garcia and refuel mid air and go on to their mission.

    And when Indian fighters shoot down those tankers will it matter that the F-22s ditching in the sea were not shot down?

    Accept it, other than Russia, all the countries will take it hard against F22s. They can prolong the attrition for a while and that's about it.

    The F-22 is a difficult target, but when has it actually seen combat? There are so many unknowns about its potential, and mix that of course with the fact that the "NATO" war machine has never really taken on a modern well equipped enemy of any size in the modern era. Even Iran and Syria are rather more of a challenge than Libya or Iraq after a few decades of sanctions...

    Accept it, The F-22 has turned out to be little more than just a white elephant.

    The fact that it takes 40 hours of maintainence per hour of flight and for its price they probably could have bought 4-5 Minutemen ICBMs, which would be just as unusable, but far more effective and unstoppable.

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    Post  victor7 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:19 am

    it is worth investing some money into searching for such things and working through a few ideas to solve the problem.

    No research goes totally into the sinkhole. Even $100M thrown into radar research will give its dividends and throw off lots of offshoot technologies to benefit from. Any big money man or house in India should think of throwing investment into defense technologies as engineers, scientists, researchers, computer programmers etc. come real cheap in China and India. I mean cost of 1/3rd to 1/5th compared to the US/West.

    Russia should be on similar research path too, however in Russia's case research on how to cancel out BMDs and Aegis based missile killers will become prominent item by 2015. Killing off Topols in booster phase will be some blow to Russia's nuclear deterrence. What are Russians going to do, fly topols on a planes at 50K feet and fire off from there.
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:28 am

    victor7 wrote:
    it is worth investing some money into searching for such things and working through a few ideas to solve the problem.

    No research goes totally into the sinkhole. Even $100M thrown into radar research will give its dividends and throw off lots of offshoot technologies to benefit from. Any big money man or house in India should think of throwing investment into defense technologies as engineers, scientists, researchers, computer programmers etc. come real cheap in China and India. I mean cost of 1/3rd to 1/5th compared to the US/West.

    Russia should be on similar research path too, however in Russia's case research on how to cancel out BMDs and Aegis based missile killers will become prominent item by 2015. Killing off Topols in booster phase will be some blow to Russia's nuclear deterrence. What are Russians going to do, fly topols on a planes at 50K feet and fire off from there.

    We are quite smart not make the mistake on counting on just one system, but the Americans count on Raptor and F-35 like there is no alternative...
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    Post  victor7 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:41 am

    This link is off topic...........or it is not! but it sure is scary, given what extra bucks will help pentagon with.....more F22s to begin with.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/a-spike-in-us-oil-production-is-about-to-make-it-the-new-middle-east-2012-3?nr_email_referer=1&utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Business%20Insider%20Select&utm_campaign=Business%20Insider%20Select%202012-03-21#ixzz1pn7UD59Y
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:06 am

    No research goes totally into the sinkhole. Indians are begging around the world for AESA radar, so even $100M thrown into radar research will give its dividends and throw off lots of offshoot technologies to benefit from.

    Sorry... what?

    The Indians spent 10 billion dollars on the MRCA competition with full technology transfer... why spend $100 million when they have bought the future French AESA for its Rafale?

    They are also investing billions in the FFGA aircraft with Russia which will also include AESA in X band and L band...

    Any big money man or house in India should think of throwing investment into defense technologies as engineers, scientists, researchers, computer programmers etc. come real cheap in China and India. I mean cost of 1/3rd to 1/5th compared to the US/West.

    It is a question of returns... even a big company can't afford to spend hundreds of million dollars on the off chance that what they manage to develop might eventually make them some money.

    It is like UAVs in Russia... for years we have seen models at airshows and for years the Russian military has looked and said these look nice, but never ordered or even tested them. Then 2008 comes along and all of a sudden they want fully operational products. Anybody who makes model aircraft could build a UAV though the autopilot could also be hand made the datalinks and of course the expensive cameras and stabilisation systems cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, so the models at airshows were shells... potential ideas.

    Once the Russian military got serious then real money can be spent, but even then it makes sense to design something that can be used by civilian customers, things like security, and for Russia then UAVs for boats to look at the ice in the water, or to check rail lines or power lines, or oil or gas pipelines that are hundreds or thousands of kms long offer a real opportunity for UAVs. Even with military UAVs there are a range of requirements including low noise and simple operation by people who are not pilots. There will also be speed and height and range requirements in addition to necessary payload requirements including night vision cameras or even laser range finders and target markers and even weapons or radiation sensors and radar arrays.

    The point is that if there is no direct request and agreed contract then it is an enormous risk that needs proper planning so that if the military decides to buy cheaper foreign models that there is a chance to sell to domestic civilian customers or state government users like MVD border patrol or FSB, to at least recover costs.

    Even just developing a new technology you need to create a production base that is not too big but also not too small that is properly tooled up and has the required skilled workers to make the final product after extensive testing of course. You need the factories and the sub contractors and materials that arrive on time and components and sub components made to a standard that is useful to you...

    We are quite smart not make the mistake on counting on just one system, but the Americans count on Raptor and F-35 like there is no alternative...

    Indeed no one system will be what the Americans like to call game changers. They do tend to get tunnel vision about certain things like the focus on Scud missiles or Iraqi Mig-29s for a while, or indeed Iraqi WMDs...

    The thing is that nothing operates in a vacuum, and taking out the supporting pieces in an attack force can reduce the effect of that attack force dramatically... to the point where it becomes almost ineffective.

    This link is off topic...........or it is not! but it sure is scary, given what extra bucks will help pentagon with.....more F22s to begin with.

    So what that article means is that the US is going to be dependent on Oil for a very long time to come... that is going to seriously weaken their ability to deal with the 21st Century when everyone else will be investing in renewable energy sources and the US will be stuck working out how to use oil efficiently to reduce emissions, or perhaps just trying to make lots of money so they can buy carbon credits and just keep polluting like they have in the past but they will be able to say they are carbon neutral because they bought carbon credits from Brazil or somewhere.

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