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    Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

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    Corrosion

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    Post  Corrosion on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:49 pm

    Actually I would say that these exercises dont prove anything since seldom the airforces use the full capabilities of their planes. They always have one hand tied behind their back due to secrecy of datalinks, radars etc. What I think is that because US didnt perform very well when they were in India in 2004 Cope India, due to their fighters were heavily restricted and in Red Flag their was going to something like this happen where info was going to be leaked in order to reverse some bad publicity of 2004. Even in the Col.'s video He states that MKI at higher level than American teens, but F-22 is much higher than MKI....you can figure out what He is trying to say to their congressmen. Give more F-22 to USAF so that they can maintain their lead in the world. Actually I dont see anything wrong in col.'s video as long as it remains personal. But if it leaks, then I am afraid you are going to open whole lot of other cans of worms as well where people will nitpick your remarks and other side will also release some info where you might not have done so well either.


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    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:52 pm

    This thread has gone places.
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    Post  victor7 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:05 pm

    Corrosion wrote:Actually I would say that these exercises dont prove anything since seldom the airforces use the full capabilities of their planes. They always have one hand tied behind their back due to secrecy of datalinks, radars etc. What I think is that because US didnt perform very well when they were in India in 2004 Cope India, due to their fighters were heavily restricted and in Red Flag their was going to something like this happen where info was going to be leaked in order to reverse some bad publicity of 2004. Even in the Col.'s video He states that MKI at higher level than American teens, but F-22 is much higher than MKI....you can figure out what He is trying to say to their congressmen. Give more F-22 to USAF so that they can maintain their lead in the world. Actually I dont see anything wrong in col.'s video as long as it remains personal. But if it leaks, then I am afraid you are going to open whole lot of other cans of worms as well where people will nitpick your remarks and other side will also release some info where you might not have done so well either.

    Good practical answer, real world is lot different, simulated exercises prove few points to make forces aware of their operational strong and weak point.

    I would add that in real world USAF can outnumber IAF by 5 to 1 in terms of birds available for a fight. So Su-MKI is good but might not be able to kill 5 if pitted against alone. The video showed their Air Vice Marshall and two Group Caps speaking high about their performances. I would accept that as a gesture of gained confidence because Indians do not thump their chests and post false numbers for no reason like Arabs do.

    Su-MKI is a world beater in its class and this was reported by Jane's way back as 2001 I think.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:55 pm

    like this happen where info was going to be leaked in order to reverse some bad publicity of 2004.

    Corrosion what info leacked ?

    This private video ,which for Col Fornof's bad luck was uploaded in internet by some Deaelaian brother Very Happy , is no more no less than an IMMENSE PILE OF COMICAL INVENTIONS, clear?

    The poor Col. Fornof had literally overturned completely the events and the results of Red Flag 2008 only to please its auditory of ex American pilots (moreover adding a ridiculous amount of gross technical mistakes) knowing that it was a private meeting and believing that never its words would have came outside this room Razz Razz
    What is the most ironic thing is that in the same instants Col. Fornof was literally inventing this piece of comical theatre closed among four walls in front of its Daedalian friends, the IAF pilots and officials was celebrating openly in front of all public media theirs umpteenth superior performance of theirs aircrafty and crew aganist USAF (like you can see also from the video i have posted).

    Corrosion the only thing absurd here is that in 2012 .....2 0 1 2.....after that the factual reality was exposed (representing practically the exact opposite of the comical raving of our "Youtube Terry" at this meeting of the Daedalians Razz Razz ) someone still have the face to cite it without feel ashamed !!

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    Post  victor7 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:09 pm

    Private Video in a public setting? Was he attending to bunch of pre-prep kids who tend to forget things very quickly or were the audience only of Alzheimer patients in advanced stages. You should be ashamed of yourself twisting the facts here without any damn authority. Do not jump to conclusions on your own. That can prove dangerous in real world scenario.

    ps: work on your sentences, it is a mental torture to read and comprehend them.

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:39 pm

    There could be agreement between Russian and India, that IAF don't expose radar capabilities to western air forces. So if radars are off, then also IFF is off, so Indian flankers have had to do visual recognition against USAF.

    This is not about India protecting the Russians... I doubt there are many Russian flankers with the sort of radar fitted to the Su-30MKI so I doubt it would be an issue anyway.

    I rather think the Indians are afraid that their secrets might make their way to the US ally Pakistan...

    Very simply these exercises are interesting and are not meaningless, but give an indication of the relative merits of the aircraft and the pilots how you separate that out is a real problem of course but I would think a combination of competent pilots and superior aircraft would explain the results.

    If it came to real combat the US would do its best to hit Indian fighter planes while they were on the ground... especially in 5 years or so when they are coming up against a combination of Rafales and Flankers and with FFGAs on the way...

    I would like to point out about the turn rates... they depend on airspeed and the effective angles of the control surfaces. So at x speed a particular aircraft can turn at y degrees per second max. If it tries to turn faster than that the control surface that is deflected to make it turn will stall and its turn rate will actually decrease because that control surface is not longer creating a turning force on the aircraft... it is just generating drag.

    That is why the tail surfaces of the R-77 are the way they are. That lattice design is far more efficient than a triangle fin and will not stall till it has turned to a much greater angles... this means that the R-77 has very good turning ability over a wider range of speeds.

    With thrust vectoring all that goes out the window because the aircraft no longer relies on control surfaces to turn and using the thrust of the engines to turn means the opposite of conventional control surfaces. With a conventional control surface it acts by deflecting the air flowing over it, so the faster the air is moving the more effect the control surface will have... so the faster you are flying the more authority the conventional surface has on the direction the aircraft flys. Obviously that doesn't mean the faster you fly the harder you can turn because there are structural limits on the aircraft, but it does mean that manouverability is reduced at lower airspeeds and if you get into a spin with the air not flowing over the control surfaces... you have lost control.

    With thrust vectoring you can manouver while falling backwards and most importantly you can point the nose of the aircraft (and therefore also the weapons and sensors) at will.

    Thrust vectoring is a huge advantage in a dog fight.






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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:54 pm

    Private Video in a public setting?



    Shocked Shocked Are you serious , say to me Victor7 what you believe it was ? Let me guess ....a debriefing of Red Flag 2008 ? Laughing Laughing Or a survey with the pilots involved ? Laughing Laughing

    Sorry for you for the abrupt reawakening, but it was no more no less than a PRIVATE MEETING OF THE "DAEDALIANS" , a small BROTHERSHIP of retired American pilot Razz Razz Razz
    That is the motivation for all this ridiculous piece of comical theatre

    Don't say to me that you have truly believed till today, in 2012 ...2 0 1 2....!!! that this was a debriefing ,of any sort, of Red Falg 2008 or ,worse, that USAF had even performed well against the IAF's SU-30MKI !!!

    Outside this room of the Daedalians the USAF's F-15 was literally obliterated in the 1 vs 1 engagement by the indian SU-30MKIs with a score of score of 21:1 .... Twenty-one to One !!.. in favour of the IAF Flanker.
    I repeat ,enjoy what was happening in 2008 ,outside the four walls of this Daedalian's room ,in the same instants that Fornof was reinventing completely the event of Red Flag 2008 to please its private auditory.





    Yesterday you posted a false analysis of F-16 vs Mig-29 ,clearly full of laughable factual mistakes and claims out of this world, by part of a mental sick poster of F-16.net and today you have reproposed a well known infamous video representing ,by itself, one of the most dark stain to the USAFs' professionalism and completely debunked more than four years ago !!

    Not preecisely a good week beginning, isn't victor7 ?
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:02 am

    one of the most dark stain to the USAFs' professionalism and completely debunked more than four years ago !!

    USAF professionalism..............worry more about their professionalism in the air not on the ground. I think in air they are ready to spit any adersary's bones out..........in a hurry.
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:10 am

    especially in 5 years or so when they are coming up against a combination of Rafales and Flankers and with FFGAs on the way...

    With the backbone of AESA equipped MKIs and Rafales, and upgraded Fulcrums and still potent Mirage 2000, I think Indians might be fielding a decent air force in 2-3 years. They are really scared of China's rise so want to be safe.

    One place I read that according to general view in USAF, the Rafaels are the third best plane out there behind F22, F35. Although Su-35 is overlooked but do not forget it is USAF viewpoint. Buck for Buck, Su-35 packs much more utility for nearly half the price.

    Rafael's Stealth factor? May be Indians have reserved these to deal with Pakistan, while Flankers and Fulcrums are dealing with China.

    The article from flight global says Mig-21s can be bought for $100K. At that price with $2M upgrades, one can have a fighter as capable as middle of the block F16s. Countries like Syria, Egypt, Iran etc. should seriously think on these lines.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:16 am


    USAF professionalism..............worry more about their professionalism in the air not on the ground. I think in air they are ready to spit any adersary's bones out..........in a hurry.



    I hope for them that theirs average Air Force official ,to the contrary of that in question, would be at least aware of what engines and radars are equiped in enemy aircraft, otherwise them will be condemned for ever at assault ,(moreover in big coalitions and at costs simply ridiculously high) only third world opponents completely uncapable to defend themselves.

    Those soundly blows received by IAF could be even useful for them , at least for remember to them what would happen in reality confronting an advanced opponent with trained pilots, proficient opertators and equipped with advanced weaponry.
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:24 am

    The difference is vrs zombi Third World nations under sanctions, USAF usually comes out with nearly negligible losses. Vrs other Third World nations like India, China, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan etc. etc. USAF might end up with at most couple dozen losses but in 2-3-4 weeks it will be total air superiority and from there on same usual stuff.

    Other than Russia no country on earth can face one on one to USAF and hope to come out ahead. Even Russia will have to use nukes within half an hour of the start to kill off the F22/F35 bases and other main stuff like Top 100 targets on the list including 11 Aircraft Carriers that project US power all around the world.

    Btw, did I mention this before or not.......here it goes

    Q: Which is the Second Largest and Powerful Air Force in the World after USAF?
    A: It is the US Navy

    Hope you get the idea now! Idea
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:05 am

    I think Indians might be fielding a decent air force in 2-3 years.

    I would suggest they already have a decent air force and it will only get better.

    Even an upgraded Mig-21 can be useful if you recognise its limitations and use it the right way...

    One place I read that according to general view in USAF, the Rafaels are the third best plane out there behind F22, F35.

    I personally think the Typhoon will probably be better than the Rafale in air to air, though not by a large amount, but in close combat neither have thrust vectoring...

    Rafael's Stealth factor? May be Indians have reserved these to deal with Pakistan, while Flankers and Fulcrums are dealing with China.

    Unless those Rafales are going to be operating with their gun only the stealth factor is largely imaginary when external weapon loads are carried...

    I would suggest that the Chinese S-300 SAMs would require stealth rather more than anything Pakistan operates...

    The article from flight global says Mig-21s can be bought for $100K. At that price with $2M upgrades, one can have a fighter as capable as middle of the block F16s. Countries like Syria, Egypt, Iran etc. should seriously think on these lines.

    Well China already offers the JF-17 which is a highly modified Mig-21 that is heavily updated which would be a useful relatively cheap aircraft, but I personally think spending a little more money to get something a little more sophisticated would be worth the extra money.

    Otherwise the real best option would be to take the pilot and cockpit out of a Mig-29, take off the vertical tail and horizontal tail surfaces and increase the wing size and increase the number of weapon pylons, and fit thrust vector engines to make it flyable. Reshape the fuselage to make it much deeper so the bottom of the aircraft is flat between the engine nacelles and put the intakes together with s shaped intakes hiding the engines from the front.

    You end up with perhaps a subsonic only aircraft that can carry 10 BVR AAMs and has a decent radar and IRST system that is a UCAV and as LO as any Euro canard. Because there are no humans on board it can be redesigned to pull 15gs which should allow it to out turn most other manned aircraft in the sky as well as many missile types too.

    USAF might end up with at most couple dozen losses but in 2-3-4 weeks it will be total air superiority and from there on same usual stuff.

    If those countries learned lessons from Serbia who lasted more than 8 weeks and had to be forced to the table politically...

    BTW mildly offensive that you consider China and India to be third world countries, and second of all on their home turf I would expect the USAF would get whipped and they know it and so they would not even try a full scale invasion.

    on the list including 11 Aircraft Carriers that project US power all around the world.

    That is rubbish for a start... to get all 11 carrier groups within striking range of Russia would make those carrier groups VERY vulnerable to being sunk. Activating all 11 carrier groups wont happen either because of the 11 carriers only about 5-6 will be operational at any one time... the rest will be in training or in overhaul.

    Q: Which is the Second Largest and Powerful Air Force in the World after USAF?
    A: It is the US Navy

    What is the only Air Force that can be sunk? The US Navy Air Force.

    Hope you get the idea now!

    Air power is over rated by the US.

    The strategic bombing campaign by the west during WWII killed more Germans than the Soviets killed, but the Soviets were killing the German soldiers... their bestest and their brightest, while western strategic bombing was killing women and children and old people...

    What use are F-35s and F-22s in Afghanistan? Or indeed in Iraq?
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 am

    Unless those Rafales are going to be operating with their gun only the stealth factor is largely imaginary when external weapon loads are carried...

    Might be wrong but RCS of Rafeal is .01 and Typhoon is .001. That is stealth enough, especially for IAF's immeidate needs. Although China is coming along with its J-20 but it won't be around until Pak-fa comes out...........so that Chinese can copy it. Am really SICK of China stealing and copying technologies all around. Vrs Russia, they do it openly.



    Activating all 11 carrier groups wont happen either because of the 11 carriers only about 5-6 will be operational at any one time... the rest will be in training or in overhaul.

    Activate or not, Near or far, if Russia gets into war with US, all AC's of USN will have to be sunk. Top 100 Target List should have 11 slots well reserved.



    What is the only Air Force that can be sunk? The US Navy Air Force.

    LOL, never thought of that, good observation!



    What use are F-35s and F-22s in Afghanistan? Or indeed in Iraq?

    Right now US is playing nice guys pretty much. If needed even legacy aircrafts can inflict lots of pain on the hostile elements in and around Afganistan.........just like firebombing of Dresden that killed 100K people. That was more than Hiroshima nuke.

    One guy told me that US spends $10B a month in Afganistan which means they have spent up $500B easy so far. Even if they had decided to invest or donate $20B towards Afganistan industries to keep people employed and busy, that might have done much more good to that country and also for the US to get good name in the Muslim world. But politically it would have been a disaster for any President to give aid to the country that caused the 911 attacks.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:27 am

    Might be wrong but RCS of Rafeal is .01 and Typhoon is .001.

    A clean Rafale or Typhoon might get down to 1m if it is very lucky. Put external weapons and external fuel tanks and its RCS will go to 2-5m depending on the load.

    Less than 1m RCS requires internal weapons and a from scratch stealth design... the PAK FA and F-22 and F-35 will be in the 0.5-0.1m RCS range if we are talking average and not peak... and peak is meaningless.

    Am really SICK of China stealing and copying technologies all around. Vrs Russia, they do it openly.

    If you are behind you can take a leap forward by copying, but you need to develop a culture that just uses copying as a means to learn the fundamentals so you can grow and design your own based on your own talent.

    Everyone copies, but most are copying themselves... ie building on the achievements of their predecessors.

    if Russia gets into war with US, all AC's of USN will have to be sunk.

    US carrier goups in the south atlantic are no threat to Russia and don't need to be sunk...


    Right now US is playing nice guys pretty much.

    Against countries like Afghanistan and Iraq their uber expensive F-35s and F-22s would offer no performance advantage over the legasy aircraft they actually used that cost a fraction of the new more expensive aircraft.

    In fact the legasy aircraft could probably carry much heavier payloads over greater distances.

    Of course a US attack on Iran could easily result in Iran giving away MANPADS and ATGMs over its borders with Afghanistan and Iraq and the result will be suddenly very painful for US forces in both countries as helicopter transport is preferred in both countries to evade IEDs. Hundreds or thousands of MANPADS cannot be stopped by air power, and will make helicopter transport impossible so the two alternatives is trucks... which would be vulnerable to IED attack and ATGM attack, and the other option... to leave.

    So a small chance to slightly damage Iran will result in total loss in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus most likely the Iranian government will realise there is no chance the IAEA will let it continue with nuclear civilian power development so it will need to go it alone... and if it is going it alone it might as well start developing nuclear weapons so it can defend itself... In other words it will make things much worse for the US.

    If the US had supported the Vietnamese against the French colonial rule then the North would likely never have had to turn to the Soviet Union for help. If the US had supported Castro throwing out the American Mob and the white european land owners that owned all the sugar cane fields and kept the local cubans as plantation workers and butlers/slaves, then he would not have needed to turn to the Soviet Union for help. Castro was a Nationalist who wanted to move the cuban people away from slavery to their colonial masters and into positions of power.

    If the US had helped him there would never have been a communist cuba.

    There are plenty of countries in central and south and even north america where the natives are called indians who are generally poor and looked down upon by the generally white colonial powers generally from Europe... spanish, portugues, and even french and british.

    Hugo Chavez is not a communist, but his nationalist ideas that native Venezuelans should get more benefit from the oil under the ground there, so that the majority of poor natives can get the benefits that would otherwise go to the already rich landowners who already have power and money. Th CIA didn't try to overthrow Chavez because he is a communist, they tried to overthrow him because their best friends are the white rich people of european descent that colonised the region and are busy pinching all its resources.

    Regarding the bombings during WWII the reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets for the nukes was because they had no military value and had been left largely untouched by bombers. They selected them because there was a maximum number of innocent civilians to kill, rather than any military purpose.

    It should be kept in mind that unlike Dresden, in both Japanese cities there was little understanding about radiation and as soon as the war ended the US military swooped in and investigated the effects of their handiwork because a good understanding of what happens in a nuclear attack on a populated area and the subsequent deaths is useful for their future planning for future nuclear wars. After the attacks about three times the number killed in the initial blasts died from exposure to radiation in each case, so in both cases we are talking about more Japanese civilians being killed than American forces killed in the whole war.


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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:37 am

    Typhoon doesn't have an RCS anywhere near .001, clean or loaded. Neither does Rafale.

    Those are fantasies based on marketing and propoganda. I doubt they are even true from a very limited angle and radar spectrum.
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    Post  Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Corrosion what info leacked ?
    For example, 21:1 thing and the issue of Fratricide where MKI shot down friendlies due to not been networked(secrecy etc.). And then Indians also leaked that USAF had similar number of Fratricide incidents. Now figure the reasons for that. Smile



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    Post  Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:45 am

    victor7 wrote:
    I would add that in real world USAF can outnumber IAF by 5 to 1 in terms of birds available for a fight.

    Lets say if USAF attacks India (Indian airspace). I would assume IAF can throw about 400 air defence fighters at USAF. Can USAF throw 2000(5x) fighters at IAF in Indian airspace. First question is where those 2000 fighters come from. You wont be sending almost entire USAF to fight on other side of globe. So it is much complex, nor do I think there will be a fire fight between USA and India anytime soon. Wink

    The video showed their Air Vice Marshall and two Group Caps speaking high about their performances. I would accept that as a gesture of gained confidence because Indians do not thump their chests and post false numbers

    Actually that video came afterwards and I think IAF would have felt that they needed to clarify atleast to Indian media/public about their pilots and the equipment they field and what happened actually. Some of the Indian responses simply wouldnt have been there if Col.'s leaked video did not come out in the first place.

    My last post on this Col. video issue.


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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:04 am

    Typhoon doesn't have an RCS anywhere near .001, clean or loaded. Neither does Rafale.

    Those are fantasies based on marketing and propoganda. I doubt they are even true from a very limited angle and radar spectrum.

    If either aircraft managed that level of stealth with minor changes at the design stage then there would be little point in building dedicated stealth aircraft that cost 2-3 times more.

    Lets say if USAF attacks India (Indian airspace). I would assume IAF can throw about 400 air defence fighters at USAF. Can USAF throw 1600(5x) fighters at IAF in Indian airspace. First question is where those 1600 fighters come from. You wont be sending almost entire USAF to fight on other side of globe. So it is much complex, nor do I think there will be a fire fight between USA and India anytime soon.

    And this is critical because if the US can't get land bases for the attack (I doubt Pakistan would offer up bases because that would drag them directly into the conflict and could lead to Indian preemptive strikes on their airfields) then you can remove the F-22 and the F-35 from the equation and the combat will be between Indian Rafales and Su-30MKIs and upgraded Mig-29s and M2Ks which are all very capable and potent aircraft against F-18s... now the F-18 is a good aircraft but it doesn't outrange the Su-30MKI so the US carriers would need to be close enough to their targets for their Hornets to reach them and that will put those ship within Brahmos range.... Losing a few planes is one thing but imagine a dedicated air, surface and subsurface attack on a US carrier group that leads to ships sunk? That is a bit different from losing a few planes don't you agree?
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    Post  Corrosion on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:23 am

    India had massive orders of Brahmos missiles and Akash SAM. I would even say that in real world IAF is not designed to take on USAF, and if things come to that they sense an US attack in near future, IAF will be prepared for that. Until then to prepare your self for something that wont happen and waste your countries resources is almost criminal. Not that US will be attacking in a day or so. These things need prepration and will require public opinion formation within USA. India will have time to induct various other systems and train crew to operate them. How about hundreds of S-xxx SAMs etc and putting in place extra ground radars. Defence is relatively easier than offense because you are fighting on home turf, but only disadvantage is you are not on front foot and have to keep prepared all the time and waste resources.

    I think this thread should return to its original topic now.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:11 am

    The difference is vrs zombi Third World nations under sanctions, USAF usually comes out with nearly negligible losses. Vrs other Third World nations like India, China, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan etc. etc. USAF might end up with at most couple dozen losses but in 2-3-4 weeks it will be total air superiority and from there on same usual stuff.


    You live completely disconneted from reality ,do you know that ?
    Third World opponents : China or India ? Laughing Laughing Laughing


    ...might end up with at most couple dozen losses ?

    Against Iraq (clear ?... I r a q ...) NATO coalition aircraft losses was of almost 40 aircraft (38 for precision), and here we talk of a nation with an antediluvian IAD -Kari- (moreover designed for repel attack by at maximum 60-70 aircraft contemporaneously from East and West of Iraq atacked by the NATO from the South thanks to the airbases offered by Saudi Arabia) composed entirely of SAM system from 15 to 30 years old moreover of downgraded export models. Laughing Laughing
    Do you want to talk of Saddam's Air Forces with its.....8 long range bombers ( export Tu-16s and H-6s moreover uncapable to employ any type of long range stand off missiles ) or its ....29 MiG-29 ,always of the older "monkey model" type of which omly 18 operable . Must continue ?

    The sad reality is that if Iraq would have been not a strong opponent ,but even only a middly powerful opponent ,an Air Campaign would have been impossible even only to prepare.
    NATO Coalition for mount its attack against...Iraq....was forced to ask to Saudi Arabia the permission to employ its seaport and airfields for transfer all the Ground Forces and Air Forces equipment and from there launch its attack (a logistical operation more than 6 months long !!). [b]All this equipment would have been totally lost
    , even before the basic readiness and operability would have been established ,in a matter of hours ,if Iraq would be equipped with any type of advanced weaponry ground or air based ,which obviously, to the exact contrary of NATO Forces, would have been already present and ready in the theatre of operation.


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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:07 pm

    Two points:

    a) Pakistan will be more than happy to offer US any bases plus anything in its arsenal, including waging a full fledged war against India, if given a direction and support by the US.

    b) With F22 alone, US can do more than serious initial damage to any country, other than Russia, which would make their Air Forces very weak to carry on any big roles. Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.

    The best bet is therefore to play Serbia and hide your valuable assets and let adversary waste its power and resources.

    S-300s can detect stealth F22/B2 at what like 20km, that is far too near. In many a ways F22 is made for the Third World convenience, a total overwhelming factor.

    Btw, US can fly from Kabul as it is already there plus they have a base in Deigo Garcia in India Ocean. Refuelers will meet them half the way. We have not even discussed the stealth cruise missiles variable. It is so easy for US that it is not even worth discussing.
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    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:59 pm


    Diego Garcia is just a few hundred kilometers south of my home atoll. The atoll has no real strategic importance compared to the rest of my country, the Maldives, but because of its geographical proximity to Diego Garcia, a fifth of our total military personnel are based there. There is also a very expensive radar system (Gan) stationed there, that sucks up more than half of our defense budget. All of that just because no one is certain what the Americans are going to do next, and also because no one knows who might decide to attack Diego Garcia and conveniently decide to go through our territory to get there.

    There is an agreement with India for them to build their own adjacent radar system. There are also ongoing talks with Russia for joint use of the Gan radar, in exchange for an arms deal (Mi-17 helicopters at a cheap price). So soon, both the Indians and the Russians may well have powerful monitoring systems a few hundred kilometers from Diego Garcia.

    And believe me, if you're not a tourist looking for some relaxation, the Maldives is not a place for you to stay longer than a few weeks. And yet the Indians, and likely the Russians, are willing to spend millions here, just so they could keep a closer eye on Diego Garcia. And apart from a B-2 making an emergency landing there, there have not been any stealth aircraft there at all. So imagine what they lengths countries would go to, if F-22's were based withing credible distances from their borders.
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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:01 pm

    India had massive orders of Brahmos missiles and Akash SAM.

    Stop spending 10s of billion on Rafeals man! Divert a billion or two for research to cancel out F22s from going on rampage in your country. For now, good diplomacy is all you have got against the USAF and its cousins. pwnd
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    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:16 pm

    victor7 no offense intended, but I think you are obsessed with the F-22. There is really no problem with that, but I think you are starting to cross the line in your support for it.

    Brahmos has range of merely 300 km that means US carrier can park at 600km and start on the act.
    An aircraft can carry the brahmos, (Im no expert in aviation) yet I think that even a single fighter, skimming above the waves can get close to a carrier, launch the missile and then scoot.

    And I agree with Garry, classifying India and China as third world countries is, to put it mildly, weird. China is now the second largest economy in the world, while India is third, and both economies are growing fast while the US and most of the EU are either sluggish or at a standstill.
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    victor7

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    Post  victor7 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:25 pm

    And I agree with Garry, classifying India and China as third world countries is, to put it mildly, weird. China is now the second largest economy in the world, while India is third, and both economies are growing fast while the US and most of the EU are either sluggish or at a standstill.

    Air Force vise, India and China are not third world countries, they have decent Air Forces. But in total sphere on conditions of living etc. they still are Third World. When more than 50% of people live under $2 a day then what else can be said. No need to argue on this as I will not reply.

    Obsessed with F22? may be kind of scared.

    I do not know how do the commanders of various air forces go to sleep everyday with this 10kg stress on their heads.........just in case situation goes bad, then how will they deal with this F22. At present they can't, so better raise monthly salaries of their diplomats and foreign policy advisers.

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