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    UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life

    starman
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    Post  starman on Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:02 am

    thegopnik wrote:
    Unannounced black projects could also be an explanation of UFOs

    A few perhaps but generally the phenomenon has always exhibited capabilities beyond anything known here. If 1940s/50s UFOs were just new technologies undergoing testing, you'd think by now we'd have flying saucers instead of jets.
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    Post  starman on Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:18 am

    kvs wrote:For sure that all the sightings of UFOs do not involve aliens from other planets.    Also, ball lightning gets reported as UFOs so atmospheric phenomena are tagged as aliens.

    Sure there have been many misidentifications of prosaic phenomena. (Once when walking around just after dark I overheard a woman say "It's not moving….could be just a star." No doubt she was referring to Venus, then visible.) But prosaic phenomena can't explain the phenomenon; if they could there would've been UFO sightings en masse long before 1947. Venus doesn't appear on radar or leave landing traces.

    And no aliens are going to travel across the galaxy to anally probe humans.

    Laughing Previously I mentioned a book, The Alien Grand Design  which shows that much reported ET activity is not genuine but intended to mislead us about the purpose of their mission here.

    As to whether aliens exist.   That is 100% certain.   There are simply too many Earth-like planets for it to be impossible to have human-like sentient species outside the
    Earth.   And it is clear that no hyperspace or wormhole travel has been found by any of the likely millions of sentient alien species out there.    So we are all basically
    permanently isolated from each other.  

    In view of our own rapid progress and the likelihood that some ET civilizations are vastly older, hence incredibly more advanced, it's naive to think our understanding of physics is the last word. Innumerable reports of strange craft and beings by credible witnesses shouldn't be dismissed on the basis of our current understanding; they indicate we have much more to learn, since ET is clearly here.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:42 am

    Laughing Previously I mentioned a book, The Alien Grand Design which shows that much reported ET activity is not genuine but intended to mislead us about the purpose of their mission here.

    Another factor is that it is rather easy to fake, and there are plenty of attention seekers out there... perhaps even people who are lonely who suddenly get all this attention because they mentioned they saw lights in the sky... I mean it is getting much harder now to make your camera create video out of focus, but the people taking movies and photos of things seem to be able to manage it... all the photos of nessie are fuzzy...
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    Post  nomadski on Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:49 am


    We are an old planet. In an extremely young universe. Reason why ET has not phoned home yet. But probability of alien life, seems very high. So high as to be a certainty.

    They tried to grow life in a test tube. Mud mixed with water. In Nitrogen rich atmosphere. Zapped with electricity. But failed. No Frankenstein yet. So variables for creation of life must be more numerous. And operate within narrower range of values.

    Yet scientists have evolved microbes, that feed on radically different foods. More radical than were thought to be possible. And of course life exists here in thermal vents. And extends a few kilometers under the soil.

    To find life out there. To target our efforts. Best bet is to find old planets. Like ours. Not just in the habitable zone. But must be four or five billion years old. Have we found such old planets yet? Does anyone know?


    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15921452-100-an-alien-diet/

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    Post  starman on Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:22 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Another factor is that it is rather easy to fake,

    The bulk of witnesses are credible--pilots, businessmen, policemen, professors, even astronauts. And the phenomenon isn't based just on testimony. There have been landing traces, radar sightings etc.

    and there are plenty of attention seekers out there…

    On the other hand, many witnesses are reluctant to come forward because of fear of ridicule.

    perhaps even people who are lonely who suddenly get all this attention because they mentioned they saw lights in the sky... I mean it is getting much harder now to make your camera create video out of focus, but the people taking movies and photos of things seem to be able to manage it…

    Some clear photos are known.

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    Post  nomadski on Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:33 pm

    I want to believe of actual alien visitations, and not mere probability of it . But there is always better explanations for this alien story. I said before that if  we reject the cases that are misinformation , misidentificatiins , fabrications , hallucinations , then  this leaves about one per cent  of cases that are truly unexplained .

    If we reject ALL witness testimony as unreliable. As we should. Since people lie. Then Radar evidence as unreliable. Since can give false detection. Or be spoofed. And  trace evidence that can have alternate explanations. Apart from few cases.

    Then there is virtually nothing left to lead us to this conclusion, of actual alien visitations. Now or in the past.

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/30609/60-people-cant-go-10-minutes-without-lying

    And :


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jamming_and_deception


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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:28 am

    Crop circles were evidence at one time... irrefutable proof of alien spacecraft... often with burn marks on the ground until some of the people making them showed how they did it...

    I really would like to believe there are aliens among us, but why would I trust them when I don't trust most of our own governments as far as I could throw them?

    Note I don't "like" the above post, but sadly I agree with it... people are liars.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:46 am

    The interesting thing for me about the UFO subject is the physics of space travel. The speed of light is the limit and one would need to have black hole like
    energies to warp space time to cheat on this limit. According to GR it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light if the spacecraft sits in a moving
    domain of space-time. As seen from the Painleve-Gulstrand stationary metric solution, space-time shells can collapse onto a point mass at free fall speeds
    which eventually exceed the speed of light creating a black hole zone inside some radius. On each of these shells, there is a hard speed of light limit on motion.
    Carrying this over to a "warp bubble" which is created by a spacecraft one can plow through the ambient space-time like the Shkval torpedo cleaves the
    water and rides a gas bubble. The analogy is that the rules of the medium are being changed.

    But this is all fantasy at the current time. It looks like no alien civilization has managed to come up with such warp engineering. Given the energies involved
    it is not that surprising.
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    Post  starman on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:37 am

    GarryB wrote:Crop circles were evidence at one time... irrefutable proof of alien spacecraft…

    Nobody considered crop circles "irrefutable proof" of alien visitation. Only in a few cases have witnesses reported strange craft making them.

    often with burn marks on the ground until some of the people making them showed how they did it...

    As the late Stan Friedman pointed out, there are hoaxes in all fields. Just because some crop circles are hoaxes doesn't mean they all are.
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    Post  starman on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:44 am

    nomadski wrote:I want to believe of actual alien visitations, and not mere probability of it . But there is always better explanations for this alien story.

    No, certainly not always. There are many cases for which no satisfactory prosaic explanation is known, even after decades of investigation. Socorro is an example.


    If we reject ALL witness testimony as unreliable. As we should. Since people lie.

    I don't think pilots, policemen, professors and other highly credible people would risk ruining their careers by hoaxing UFO stories. Often witnesses are reluctant to come forward.




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    Post  starman on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:52 am

    kvs wrote:But this is all fantasy at the current time.   It looks like no alien civilization has managed to come up with such warp engineering. 

    If you mean there is no evidence of ET here, legions of witnesses and investigators would beg to differ. Given thousands of sightings by credible witnesses of strange craft and entities all over the world, and some physical evidence, the problem must be with our current understanding of physics.
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:16 am

    ".... This is the best-documented case on record, and still we have been unable, in spite of thorough investigation, to find the vehicle or other stimulus that scared Zamora to the point of panic."[29].. "

    The vehicle that spooked Zamora, and made him stop the chase on highway, was most probably the vehicle he was chasing. He was in fear for his life, thinking that the occupants would open fire. He then abandoned the chase and drove into desert. But what excuse to give ?  Ah.... an alien has landed excuse !  And some jumped on the bandwagon for TV ratings or personal fame. Fellow officers saved his job, by supporting him. Recent cases ( many ) also of police terminating a chase or investigation. Because of UFO had  " disabled" vehicle.............


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Zamora_incident
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    Post  starman on Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:01 pm

    nomadski wrote:The vehicle that spooked Zamora, and made him stop the chase on highway, was most probably the vehicle he was chasing. He was in fear for his life, thinking that the occupants would open fire.

    Zamora was chasing a speeding vehicle. How would he know the occupant(s) were armed? The only problem was they were going too fast. Or, if he didn't have the guts to face some personal danger what the heck was he doing in the PD?

    He then abandoned the chase and drove into desert. But what excuse to give ?  Ah.... an alien has landed excuse !

    He heard the sound of an explosion and considered that more important than a speeder. He thought a dynamite shack had blown up, so went to investigate, and saw the strange object with humanoids. This sort of occurrence is not at all unusual. As The Alien Grand Design notes, the phenomenon often makes some kind of sound to attract the attention of a witness and get him to see some spectacle.

     And some jumped on the bandwagon for TV ratings or personal fame. Fellow officers saved his job, by supporting him.

    An outright fabrication is utterly absurd. There were landing traces, thoroughly investigated. Not so long ago there was a nonsensical claim about (unnamed and unidentified) college students hoaxing them but I don't recall anybody in KDR's blog believing that or saying Zamora did it. Even if he was derelict in his duty and needed an excuse it would've been infinitely better or less risky to make up some story which did not involve ETs…People might think he's crazy--just as bad as cowardly if not worse.


    Recent cases ( many ) also of police terminating a chase or investigation. Because of UFO had  " disabled" vehicle.............

    In fact civilians have had this experience see e.g. 1973 The Year of the Humanoids.
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:40 pm

    You are more uptodate with cases. But I only refer to those I saw on TV.  About civilian cases, where vehicles were affected. I can think of following cases. You probably know them by name.

    Case 1.  Courting couple pull up along the verge. Or so they say. Report object approaching. Lifts car into air and drops car unto verge. Damaging kerb. If we edit out the " object lifting and dropping car". As unreliable witness testimony. The only remaining  facts are :  1 - courting couple and 2- damage to car and kerbside. But how do you explain that you lost control of moving vehicle?  Since you were a good driver and out for a modest night out?  Were not supposed to stop, and had to keep both hands on the wheel.

    Case 2. Lorry driver reports lights approaching, finds himself inside giant space ship. Only later to wake up at station. Having lost several hours in time. The truck mile indicator, shows journey took far shorter, than actual distance travelled. His pistol had been fired without explanation. This one is an obvious fabrication by driver, who got into funny business, a crime or shoot out. Tried to cover tracks by messing with mile indicator. Made a mess of it. Stole the records later.

    Case 3. Women driving car at night. Hits invisible object. Dents car. The car shows impact with soft object. This explained away as magic melting of car body. Reality : woman hits pedestrian or animal, but soft body leaves no traces or blood on car. Woman does not own up to hitting and probably killing someone on the Road.
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    Post  starman on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:23 am

    nomadski wrote:You are more uptodate with cases. But I only refer to those I saw on TV.  About civilian cases, where vehicles were affected. I can think of following cases. You probably know them by name.

    Over the years I've read about more cases than I can remember.

    Case 1.  Courting couple pull up along the verge. Or so they say. Report object approaching. Lifts car into air and drops car unto verge. Damaging kerb. If we edit out the " object lifting and dropping car". As unreliable witness testimony. The only remaining  facts are :  1 - courting couple and 2- damage to car and kerbside. But how do you explain that you lost control of moving vehicle?  Since you were a good driver and out for a modest night out?  Were not supposed to stop, and had to keep both hands on the wheel.

    Unless they confessed to a hoax I wouldn't dismiss this one. The courting couple probably stopped on some secluded stretch of road so they could "make out" in privacy. There have been all kinds of reports of strange things done by the phenomenon.

    Case 2. Lorry driver reports lights approaching, finds himself inside giant space ship. Only later to wake up at station. Having lost several hours in time. The truck mile indicator, shows journey took far shorter, than actual distance travelled. His pistol had been fired without explanation. This one is an obvious fabrication by driver, who got into funny business, a crime or shoot out. Tried to cover tracks by messing with mile indicator. Made a mess of it. Stole the records later.

    Laughing Don't you think he'd have a better chance of being believed if he made up some less bizarre story? Actually scores of strange craft have messed around  with vehicles. Since the time of the Hills, there have been many reports of motorists being abducted. As The Alien Grand Design notes, the phenomenon deliberately varies the details of cases. Most often a driver is taken but sometimes the whole vehicle. It's possible, btw, the guy shot at a humanoid who pulled him out of the truck to examine him. A cop was mysteriously unable to draw his pistol in similar circumstances but the truck driver may have been able to (even if he like most abductees had no conscious memory of what happened inside a craft). There have been reports of people shooting at humanoids and hitting them. The Alien Grand Design has several such cases.

    Case 3. Women driving car at night. Hits invisible object. Dents car. The car shows impact with soft object. This explained away as magic melting of car body. Reality : woman hits pedestrian or animal, but soft body leaves no traces or blood on car. Woman does not own up to hitting and probably killing someone on the Road.

    Here I incline toward the skeptical view. I don't think ET was involved since "an invisible object" provides no grounds for it specifically. Whereas UFO activity generally appears intended to convince people ET is here.
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    Post  nomadski on Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:45 pm

    That's the point. It is no longer outlandish or bizzare to refer to aliens. People are not locked up in loony bin. They are somewhat believed. The alien phenomenon reflects similar beliefs previously in ghosts. People believed these as tangible and factual realities. Instead of  a product of psychology.

    And why indeed not come up with alternative more Earthly excuses?  Because a material Earthly excuse, can potentially be disproved. But an alien visitor, can never be disproved. They are simply out of this world. No possible evidence can be found, to disprove the story. And one size fits all. It is a very flexible story, that can " account" for lost time and absent people and strange injuries........

    https://youtu.be/SatgtjVX4PY


    Now it seems that the phosphine gas on Venus, has a non-biogenic explanation. One that does not require us to explain, how a living organism, could survive  such harsh environment. But requires us to explain, the larger quantities found.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:14 pm

    https://summit.news/2020/09/15/video-dozens-of-people-in-new-jersey-stop-their-cars-mistake-blimp-for-a-ufo/

    Most UFO sightings are from idiots and are worth nothing. This includes cases such as the above where there is not enough
    IQ to distinguish an advertising blimp from a "UFO". Another example is to call ball lightning plasma spheres UFOs. There
    is only the "unidentified" part and no association with aliens whatsoever.



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    Post  starman on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 am

    kvs wrote:Most UFO sightings are from idiots and are worth nothing.

    There are misidentifications by inexperienced observers but many unexplained (i.e. in prosaic terms) cases are based on the testimony of highly credible witnesses--policemen, pilots, professors, businessmen even astronauts.
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    Post  starman on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:07 am

    nomadski wrote:That's the point. It is no longer outlandish or bizzare to refer to aliens. People are not locked up in loony bin. They are somewhat believed.

    Yes but has anyone invoked ET in a court of law? Without supporting evidence I doubt it would be a valid defense...

    And why indeed not come up with alternative more Earthly excuses?  Because a material Earthly excuse, can potentially be disproved. But an alien visitor, can never be disproved. They are simply out of this world. No possible evidence can be found, to disprove the story.

    In fact investigators look for evidence to verify UFO reports, and can spot hoaxes. Many reports involve landing traces or marks that are hard to explain, and such evidence may be expected if ET came down to take someone. Also, if someone claims a UFO took him at this or that place investigators can search for corroborating testimony from other witnesses. A well-known abduction in '73 had such supporting testimony. In cases where it is expected--like a busy road--lack of it can sink a case, or severely diminish its credibility.
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    Post  nomadski on Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:42 pm

    I think the reason, ET has not been used as defence in court of law, is that it will not prove anything. And they know it. ET defence is used in cases, that are not judicial in nature. May refer to accidents or misdemeanour. Or injury to property or self. Or if there is a victim, then they have not yet come forward with complaint. Because nature of event embarrassing.

    And I do think that the position or rank of witness gives more authority. But some authorities think that UFO story is a white lie. It hurts no one. That it gets people interested to ask questions. Maybe they are right. It sure gets my interest still. How else do you get people to send another probe to Mars?  And keep your job? Ah.... The face on Mars...... The gas on Venus.....

    And yes there are some cases, where there are multiple witnesses. Marks on the ground. Radar. They are more difficult to explain. But they may have more to do with other less understood events. Than just ET, visiting. BTW, what is 73, case with supporting testimony ?

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    Post  starman on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:33 am

    nomadski wrote:I think the reason, ET has not been used as defence in court of law, is that it will not prove anything.

    If the case for ET involvement is good, because there is no prosaic explanation for certain evidence, that may cause someone to be exonerated (i.e. prove his innocence). The problem is, while acceptance of the reality of ET is increasing, there is still no official recognition of this reality. Without that, ET can't be used in a court of law.

    And I do think that the position or rank of witness gives more authority. But some authorities think that UFO story is a white lie. It hurts no one. That it gets people interested to ask questions. Maybe they are right. It sure gets my interest still. How else do you get people to send another probe to Mars?  And keep your job? Ah.... The face on Mars...... The gas on Venus…..

    I don't think UFO reports motivate space spending. Many scientists aren't enthusiastic about UFOs.

    And yes there are some cases, where there are multiple witnesses. Marks on the ground. Radar. They are more difficult to explain. But they may have more to do with other less understood events. Than just ET, visiting.

    Like what, the Holy Ghost? Smile Many of these cases occurred decades ago--ample time to thoroughly examine all possibilities or theories.



    BTW, what is 73, case with supporting testimony ?

    Pascagoula.

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