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Sounds like disinfo of the kind once put out by Corso and Koppang.
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29 posters
UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life
starman- Posts : 736
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jhelb- Posts : 1086
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Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
U.S Navy Officers Say 'Unknown Individuals' Made Them Erase Evidence of 2004 UFO Encounter
https://www.space.com/navy-witnesses-nimitz-encounter.html
https://www.space.com/navy-witnesses-nimitz-encounter.html
starman- Posts : 736
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Join date : 2016-08-10
Not the first time authorities ensured evidence was kept out of the public domain.
GarryB- Posts : 38924
Points : 39420
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Maybe the same unknowns that made those US pilots erase the tapes of their flight when they killed all those people in that cable car in Italy...
kvs- Posts : 15111
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Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
starman wrote:There's been talk of possible stromatolites on Mars for a long time; with luck they'll be found at Jezero crater. I'm somewhat skeptical though. Martian "rivers" tended to be ephemeral. Most of the 3-4 billion year period was post Noachian, when Mars was already practically airless and in deep freeze.
Mars didn't get lucky and did not have enough primordial disk material to suck up when it formed. By contrast Jupiter formed as a small rocky moon-sized planet and grew into
the gas giant it is today by capturing most of the disk mass in its orbital zone. It is possible that Jupiter out-competed Mars for the disk material because the gravitational
capture is nonlinear with the size of the planet and there was a transition period where Jupiter experienced explosive growth.
BTW, the "air" on Mars would have been 95% or more CO2 as it was on Venus and Earth. Mars did not have enough time to develop oxygen producing
lifeforms. Stromatolites appear to involve oxygen producing bacteria or algae.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Location : AZ, USA
https://turproezdka.ru/samoe-interesnoe/tajny-kitajskix-piramid-i-pochemu-tuda-ne-puskayut-turistov.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:09 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
starman- Posts : 736
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Join date : 2016-08-10
kvs wrote:
Mars didn't get lucky and did not have enough primordial disk material to suck up when it formed. By contrast Jupiter formed as a small rocky moon-sized planet and grew into
the gas giant it is today by capturing most of the disk mass in its orbital zone.
Generally the farther from the center of gravity--the proto-sun--the lighter the elements so Jupiter and other jovians absorbed the mass of lighter elements as they accreted, and became gas giants.
It is possible that Jupiter out-competed Mars for the disk material because the gravitational
capture is nonlinear with the size of the planet and there was a transition period where Jupiter experienced explosive growth.
Jovian gravity is said to have thinned out disk material in the region of the asteroid belt and Mars' orbit.
BTW, the "air" on Mars would have been 95% or more CO2 as it was on Venus and Earth. Mars did not have enough time to develop oxygen producing
lifeforms. Stromatolites appear to involve oxygen producing bacteria or algae.
Mars essentially froze when life first appeared on Earth, so forget surface life. I' don't know if internal planetary heat could've enabled underground life to survive and perhaps evolve.
nomadski- Posts : 2772
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The scientists recently said that oxygen levels on Mars increase in spring and summer. I did not know that Mars has seasons like Earth. But perhaps distinct shifts in climatic conditions. Such as variation in temp or sunlight. There can be two possible causes. Biologic and chemical. Do any of you know of any chemical reaction on Mars that is temp dependant to produce excess oxygen. Given Mars chemistry?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/science/2019/11/mysterious-oxygen-spike-seen-on-mars-puzzles-scientists
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/science/2019/11/mysterious-oxygen-spike-seen-on-mars-puzzles-scientists
kvs- Posts : 15111
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nomadski wrote:The scientists recently said that oxygen levels on Mars increase in spring and summer. I did not know that Mars has seasons like Earth. But perhaps distinct shifts in climatic conditions. Such as variation in temp or sunlight. There can be two possible causes. Biologic and chemical. Do any of you know of any chemical reaction on Mars that is temp dependant to produce excess oxygen. Given Mars chemistry?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/relay.nationalgeographic.com/proxy/distribution/public/amp/science/2019/11/mysterious-oxygen-spike-seen-on-mars-puzzles-scientists
These spikes are 30% above the inorganic chemistry expectations. This is basically within the error bars since not all inorganic
chemistry reactions are accounted for.
As ultraviolet light from the sun smashes into carbon dioxide and water vapor in Mars’s atmosphere, it breaks those molecules into their components, creating molecular oxygen, or O2. Eventually, this O2 goes through another set of chemical reactions to form CO2, completing the cycle. In the meantime, an individual O2 molecule can hang around in the Martian atmosphere for at least 10 years, if not several decades. This sunlight-formed O2 makes up about 0.13 percent of the red planet’s modern atmosphere.
A clearly simplistic model that does not account for heterogeneous chemistry on Martian dust. Due to the oxygen poor atmosphere on
Mars, there are unoxidized metals in the rocks and dust. These metals can chemically attack CO2 and H2O.
There is zero indication of any biogenic origin to the O2 on Mars.
starman- Posts : 736
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I'd expect photodissociation to increase where there's more insolation, and it can result in more oxygen, for example if water molecules or CO2 are broken up.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Location : AZ, USA
The first in space were the Sumerians
In a story that goes back to 1100 B.C. and must have been known to Ashurnasirpal II, and contemplated by him as he viewed these scenes, Enmeduranki, an ancient king of Sippar, was taken to heaven on a golden throne and seated before Shamash, who taught him the art of divination and the secrets of the “tablet of the gods”. When he was returned to earth the enlightened earthling shared what he learned during his celestial journey.
https://www.gaia.com/article/ufos-ancient-art
Elijah was also taken to space!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
https://www.gaia.com/article/is-ezekiels-vision-of-the-wheel-evidence-of-ufos-in-the-bible
In a story that goes back to 1100 B.C. and must have been known to Ashurnasirpal II, and contemplated by him as he viewed these scenes, Enmeduranki, an ancient king of Sippar, was taken to heaven on a golden throne and seated before Shamash, who taught him the art of divination and the secrets of the “tablet of the gods”. When he was returned to earth the enlightened earthling shared what he learned during his celestial journey.
https://www.gaia.com/article/ufos-ancient-art
Elijah was also taken to space!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah
https://www.gaia.com/article/is-ezekiels-vision-of-the-wheel-evidence-of-ufos-in-the-bible
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:48 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
starman- Posts : 736
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Tsavo Lion wrote:Enmeduranki, an ancient king of Sippar, was taken to heaven on a golden throne
People read too much into stories like this and apparently don't think the ancients had any imagination....
and seated before Shamash, who taught him the art of divination and the secrets of the “tablet of the gods”. When he was returned to earth the enlightened earthling shared what he learned during his celestial journey.
Naturally what he "learned" was a reflection of mythology not advanced science.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Join date : 2016-08-16
Location : AZ, USA
Ancient peoples didn't need our so-called advanced science- just skills to better their lives while not harming themselves.
GarryB- Posts : 38924
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Yeah, but those happy stressfree ancients lived to maybe 30-35 years old if they were lucky and had huge families because birth mortality rates would be pretty high too... not to mention they didn't even have any idea why the sun kept coming up.
Today we get stressed if the Sky gets cut off because we forgot to pay the bill... their stress mostly revolved around their personal survival and keeping family fed and housed...
Today we get stressed if the Sky gets cut off because we forgot to pay the bill... their stress mostly revolved around their personal survival and keeping family fed and housed...
starman- Posts : 736
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Tsavo Lion wrote:Ancient peoples didn't need our so-called advanced science- just skills to better their lives while not harming themselves.
But that's the point of advanced science or much of it. There's no evidence of immunization from disease on account of their putative ET contacts, to cite one example.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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They may have been immunized then, but viruses adopt to drugs, as our epidemics & recent history showed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5499642/
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/biology-of-viruses/virus-biology/a/evolution-of-viruses
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5499642/
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/biology-of-viruses/virus-biology/a/evolution-of-viruses
GarryB- Posts : 38924
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Generally the farther from the center of gravity--the proto-sun--the lighter the elements so Jupiter and other jovians absorbed the mass of lighter elements as they accreted, and became gas giants.
There are plenty of extrasolar planetary systems with gas giants close to their stars too... I rather suspect it all depends on the shape and make up of the disk of material that the system forms from.
From our own system we think smaller hard rocky planets form in close and further out are the gas giants and Pluto is an abberation, but honestly we really have no solid model that actually makes sense.
We think a very very large object hit the earth early on that was at least moon sized and might have been as big as mars or venus... which suggests orbits can change.
Earth might not exist as we know it without a large body like Jupiter sucking up all the fragments and dangerous objects that it does... either flinging them out of the solar system or capture them like all those moons, or flinging them at the sun...
Pluto might just be the first of many pluto sized objects from the Oort cloud or that body of objects outside pluto and neptunes orbit that perhaps Jupiter or perhaps a distant star whose multi million year orbital movement brings it close enough to knock large objects into our solar system.
We seem to get fairly regular visits from some fairly large heavy objects, so that might be part of what is happening.
BTW if Shoemaker levy had hit the earth the devastation would have been enormous... it was broken up by the gravity of jupiter but earths gravity would be too weak and it would have hit as one huge object... we might have gotten a new moon out of it, but I doubt there would be anyone around to see it.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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I hope the ETs would have reasons to prevent it!BTW if Shoemaker levy had hit the earth the devastation would have been enormous...
starman- Posts : 736
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Tsavo Lion wrote:They may have been immunized then....
No evidence. ET would've told the ancients pathogens cause disease, and supplied the means to make new vaccines.
starman- Posts : 736
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Join date : 2016-08-10
GarryB wrote:
There are plenty of extrasolar planetary systems with gas giants close to their stars too... I rather suspect it all depends on the shape and make up of the disk of material that the system forms from.
And the size of the star. Those with far less heat output can have jovians pretty close--on a lasting basis--because the flux is insufficient to boil away the lighter gases as presumably happened to the terrestrial ones in our solar system.
From our own system we think smaller hard rocky planets form in close and further out are the gas giants and Pluto is an abberation, but honestly we really have no solid model that actually makes sense.
In some planetary systems, close encounters between two gas giants may have resulted in one flying inward toward the star the other out of the system.
Earth might not exist as we know it without a large body like Jupiter sucking up all the fragments and dangerous objects that it does... either flinging them out of the solar system or capture them like all those moons, or flinging them at the sun...
I think the importance of the jovians has been overstated. They may absorb many dangerous objects. But it's possible jovian gravity sent a lot of stuff into the inner solar system, after drawing it out of the oort cloud in the first place.
GarryB- Posts : 38924
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But then we are Sol centric thinkers... the majority of stars are twins... how would that effect the orbits of planets...
In the 1980s I played a computer game on my Amiga 500 computer... it was called Frontier II and it was totally brilliant. It came on one floppy disk and was about 880KB of amazing fun... you could buy ships, you could fight pirates, you could do jobs for governments, you could trade, you could mine... the graphics understandably were not amazing but certainly good enough and it had an awesome map of the galaxy. The planets in the game were of course largely made up, but you could fly around in a space ship and land on planets... either in space ports in the star systems near earth, and space stations orbiting planets and moons and some asteroids... or you could land manually on planets and moons... it was awesome and totally amazing to fit on just one floppy disk.
The interface was simple and straight forward and could show the cockpit of the space craft or external views.
To be honest I used to cheat. What you could do was buy a small ship... the smallest one with decent weapon options and then load up hydrogen fuel and then take off and fly out in to empty space away from policed areas and then dump fuel... a bug in the software jettisoned the one ton of fuel, but you kept the fuel but it freed up one ton of space... so as you jettisoned more and more the capacity of your ship increased and increased... the only problem was that sometimes you collided with the jettisoned fuel which was identified as garbage. So you get a tiny ship with a small engine and you fly out to the middle of no where and dump 5,000 tons of fuel meaning you have 5,000 tons of free space in your tiny little ship, so you buy a bigger gun and you buy some shield generators... the more you have installed the more effective they are and being able to increase your internal volume to any size you like means you can carry enormous guns only star destroyers could carry and when you put enormous engines then your acceleration becomes enormous and your ability to jump to light speed means you can jump hundreds of light years per jump instead of 5-10 with your original engine. More importantly you can add extra stuff like self repair systems, navigation systems, missiles, jammers, and still have space for transporting people or cargo to make money. You can also carry mining equipment so you can go out to the deep dark reaches of the galaxy to mine for all sorts of stuff and then take it to places that have a shortage of what ever you mined to make the best profit.
There are always enemy ships that will attack you of course so there is combat as well.
You can speed up and slow down time so if you need to cover enormous distances in a huge star system you can accelerate time so a day passes in a second and then push the thrust key to accelerate to enormous speeds.
The modeling is excellent... there is momentum and gravity and an X in the HUD shows the direction you are heading in and your speed is shown relative to nearby objects... so if you take off from Moscow on earth and head towards a space station at the start your airspeed is relative to earth but as you get close to the space station it changes to speed relative to the space station... and as you get really close to the space station you get captured by its gravity and start spinning with it (which is probably not so realistic but makes docking easier... perhaps they have a tractor beam or something..)
I must go and dig that game out again and work out how I can play it... anyone know any good Amiga 500 computer emulators for Linux?
In the 1980s I played a computer game on my Amiga 500 computer... it was called Frontier II and it was totally brilliant. It came on one floppy disk and was about 880KB of amazing fun... you could buy ships, you could fight pirates, you could do jobs for governments, you could trade, you could mine... the graphics understandably were not amazing but certainly good enough and it had an awesome map of the galaxy. The planets in the game were of course largely made up, but you could fly around in a space ship and land on planets... either in space ports in the star systems near earth, and space stations orbiting planets and moons and some asteroids... or you could land manually on planets and moons... it was awesome and totally amazing to fit on just one floppy disk.
The interface was simple and straight forward and could show the cockpit of the space craft or external views.
To be honest I used to cheat. What you could do was buy a small ship... the smallest one with decent weapon options and then load up hydrogen fuel and then take off and fly out in to empty space away from policed areas and then dump fuel... a bug in the software jettisoned the one ton of fuel, but you kept the fuel but it freed up one ton of space... so as you jettisoned more and more the capacity of your ship increased and increased... the only problem was that sometimes you collided with the jettisoned fuel which was identified as garbage. So you get a tiny ship with a small engine and you fly out to the middle of no where and dump 5,000 tons of fuel meaning you have 5,000 tons of free space in your tiny little ship, so you buy a bigger gun and you buy some shield generators... the more you have installed the more effective they are and being able to increase your internal volume to any size you like means you can carry enormous guns only star destroyers could carry and when you put enormous engines then your acceleration becomes enormous and your ability to jump to light speed means you can jump hundreds of light years per jump instead of 5-10 with your original engine. More importantly you can add extra stuff like self repair systems, navigation systems, missiles, jammers, and still have space for transporting people or cargo to make money. You can also carry mining equipment so you can go out to the deep dark reaches of the galaxy to mine for all sorts of stuff and then take it to places that have a shortage of what ever you mined to make the best profit.
There are always enemy ships that will attack you of course so there is combat as well.
You can speed up and slow down time so if you need to cover enormous distances in a huge star system you can accelerate time so a day passes in a second and then push the thrust key to accelerate to enormous speeds.
The modeling is excellent... there is momentum and gravity and an X in the HUD shows the direction you are heading in and your speed is shown relative to nearby objects... so if you take off from Moscow on earth and head towards a space station at the start your airspeed is relative to earth but as you get close to the space station it changes to speed relative to the space station... and as you get really close to the space station you get captured by its gravity and start spinning with it (which is probably not so realistic but makes docking easier... perhaps they have a tractor beam or something..)
I must go and dig that game out again and work out how I can play it... anyone know any good Amiga 500 computer emulators for Linux?
starman- Posts : 736
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Join date : 2016-08-10
GarryB wrote:But then we are Sol centric thinkers... the majority of stars are twins... how would that effect the orbits of planets...
Unless a planet is tightly bound to one star--and ecosphere planets tend to be--probably adversely.
kvs- Posts : 15111
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Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
starman wrote:GarryB wrote:But then we are Sol centric thinkers... the majority of stars are twins... how would that effect the orbits of planets...
Unless a planet is tightly bound to one star--and ecosphere planets tend to be--probably adversely.
It is the 3-body problem. I have seen publications that purport to solve for the motion of 3 bodies exactly, but the convergence of the series expansions
becomes so bad that you may as well crank the problem on a computer. But the fact remains that in this deterministic system there is no stability or
quasi-stability unless one of the bodies is almost zero mass fraction compared to the two other bodies. Then we have a binary star system with
a spec orbiting around their center of gravity and perturbed by the rotating mass anomaly around this center of gravity. This idealized limit does not
guarantee that the orbit of the spec is going to be anything like the slightly elliptical orbit of the Earth. To have circular or elliptic orbits would likely require
the spec to be located past the orbit radius of Earth. The closer you get to the binary star system, the more likely that some resonance will take you
very close to the binary resulting in an evolving, highly deformed orbit.
But for an Earth-sized planet, the pseudo-stability conditions would be much stricter and no "habitable belt" orbit would exist. Binary star systems
do not keep their planets and either consume them, or eject them. There is at least one system where there is a Jupiter class body engaged in
a bizarre orbit around a binary star system. It may take millions of years, but eventually this Jupiter class body will probably be ejected. (There
is some chance it will be consumed as well).
In our Solar system, we can see the 3 body problem in action. There is a good reason why the planets are in a disc and so are most of
the small meteoroid bodies. Any planet or rock trying to orbit in another plane tilted with respect to the existing disc would not be able to have a stable
orbit. It could over time be dragged into the same disc as all the other planets, or can be kicked into the Sun. The orbiting mass system is
actively acting to collapse into a lower free energy manifold (this does not require the loss of orbital energy, it is a property of nonlinear Hamiltonian
systems). This manifold mimics a two-body regime. Of course, the planets do not align forever, but they don't randomly orbit the Sun either.
starman- Posts : 736
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What if the two stars in a binary system are widely separated, one is relatively very small, and a planet orbits the larger? Or if the two stars are very close with a total flux about equal to sol, and an earthlike planet orbits the pair?
nomadski- Posts : 2772
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@ starman and KVS
Thanks for reply. So it does look like no life on Mars. And Mars is so like Earth. So it looks like that some variables must be present and in right quantity for life to exist. We only have the example of Earth. Scientists say that it is not enough that a planet exists in the right orbit around a similar sun for life to exist. As you said we need a giant planet like Jupiter to absorb the impacts. And some say we need a moon for tidal Oceans for life.
So I think we have to look for specifics. An almost identical solar system to our own. Formed around the same time. But even then, the life there may not coincide with our own. If rate of evolution is different by one percent, then alien life may evolve 45 millions years out of sync with us. And radio emitting life may only exist for a thousand years. So it could be that 45 million years ago, while our ancestors were living in trees, that radio washed across Earth for thousand years. And then it ended. And it could be that our radio will wash across a planet inhabited by similar tree dwelling creatures, who will not have radio for another 45 million years.
So for radio contact to be possible, identical systems are needed. But first we must be able to identify identical systems. Can the life or age of a star be estimated to within a thousand years? If so then it is possible that radio emitting life exist there too, coincident with life on Earth. They must also be within a thousand light year distance. Otherwise we will still miss them.
I think a good estimation, a Conservative one, for the life span of radio emitting life is about thousand years. I think we should not look further. And we should not look at all with radio, unless we can estimate and find identical systems. What you think.?
Thanks for reply. So it does look like no life on Mars. And Mars is so like Earth. So it looks like that some variables must be present and in right quantity for life to exist. We only have the example of Earth. Scientists say that it is not enough that a planet exists in the right orbit around a similar sun for life to exist. As you said we need a giant planet like Jupiter to absorb the impacts. And some say we need a moon for tidal Oceans for life.
So I think we have to look for specifics. An almost identical solar system to our own. Formed around the same time. But even then, the life there may not coincide with our own. If rate of evolution is different by one percent, then alien life may evolve 45 millions years out of sync with us. And radio emitting life may only exist for a thousand years. So it could be that 45 million years ago, while our ancestors were living in trees, that radio washed across Earth for thousand years. And then it ended. And it could be that our radio will wash across a planet inhabited by similar tree dwelling creatures, who will not have radio for another 45 million years.
So for radio contact to be possible, identical systems are needed. But first we must be able to identify identical systems. Can the life or age of a star be estimated to within a thousand years? If so then it is possible that radio emitting life exist there too, coincident with life on Earth. They must also be within a thousand light year distance. Otherwise we will still miss them.
I think a good estimation, a Conservative one, for the life span of radio emitting life is about thousand years. I think we should not look further. And we should not look at all with radio, unless we can estimate and find identical systems. What you think.?
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