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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu May 28, 2020 3:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I did weapon intelligence in the British army from 1998 And I was taught and briefed on NATO designation etc and Soviet and Russian systems it was Saxhorn, and we were told metis was in service with VDV and special forces. And it was intended to replace fagot as it was deemed to be outdated for current armour mainly MBT. But of course Russia wasn't in a great State Bank in mid 1990's so I would imagine procurement was slow, and combining that with huge Soviet stocks then this would also slow up procurement of new systems.

    The problem there is that western intel is not perfect and often they got things very very wrong simply because they always assumed the Soviets were basically the same as them.

    They are not.

    .

    Actually Ur wrong. We never compared or saw them anything like us. They did slate various pieces of equipment and actually praised others. But also understood the economic impact on Russia after the break up of the Soviet Union. The Russians were way ahead of us in terms of air defence, amphibious warfare, thermobaric weapons especially hand held was a big worry, even BM-21 and totcka was deemed a dangerous threat especially the sheer number of BM-21 and us having no way to fully neutralise that threat. They saw the economic woes that Russia had at the time as a god send and chance for us to have some breathing space and a head start. They knew Russia was in no fit state for all out war and procurement and maintenance of such vast equipment numbers to unsustainable. They saw there intelligence network was now the biggest threat and selling of dangerous effective weapons to anyone as the biggest threat. I remember reading a report about intelligence services stop the sale of RPO to RIRA for around a few thousand £. Worried not just that sort of weapon being sold on black market but the fact Russians (most likely a corrupt officer sold on to criminal gangs, Mafia etc) were selling it cheaply.

    I also remember the time we did war games and a major from USA Intel came and he played Russian commander for the exercise and he won he clearly knew the capabilities and best way to use them. Our Lt col was not happy hahaha I was laughing inside 😂

    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian on Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm

    @ d-taddei 2

    The pictures you posted are very old promotional pictures.

    Believe me, I like the Metis very much and would like it to be service. Unfortunately, the Russian Defense Ministry has not purchased it.

    You and poster Hole are claiming that it is in widespread service with the VDV, please go ahead and show me a picture of those guys with a Metis. I would love to be proven wrong.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri May 29, 2020 8:14 am

    TheArmenian wrote:@ d-taddei 2

    The pictures you posted are very old promotional pictures.

    Believe me, I like the Metis very much and would like it to be service. Unfortunately, the Russian Defense Ministry has not purchased it.

    You and poster Hole are claiming that it is in widespread service with the VDV, please go ahead and show me a picture  of those guys with a Metis. I would love to be proven wrong.

    First off I doubt British and USA intelligence got it wrong.

    Secondly why would Russia design a system such as metis and not use it. It's far better than fagot which is outdated. Or do you think they have removed it from service and decided to just use fagot instead. I do believe that many fagot are still in service most likely down sheer amount of ammo but I believe metis and metis m are in service as well. Fagot with its max 600 penetration compared to metis m 900+ and the system being better across the board that Russia snubbed it?

    And in that link I provided in an article by KBP instrument design bureau it stated
    "the Metis-M1 anti-tank missile system was adopted by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation." this was quoted as coming from the minister of defence.

    And this taken direct from the ministry of Russian defence webpage, which shows its in service with Russian armed forces.

    " Artillery formations of the Caspian Flotilla marine troops conducted a battery exercise with combat firing at the Adanak and Scorpion ranges in Dagestan.

    More than 100 servicemen and about 40 military hardware, including self-propelled artillery weapons Nona, 100-mm antitank guns Rapira, antitank missile complexes Metis and Fagot, were involved in the exercise.

    Besides, marines practised defence tasks on interdiction to landing forces of simulated enemy marine forces. "

    https://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12142075@egNews
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 29, 2020 8:39 am

    Actually Ur wrong. We never compared or saw them anything like us. They did slate various pieces of equipment and actually praised others.

    Obviously I never had any military access to intel, but most of the publicly available information were based on open intel reports or intelligence.

    Obviously such information was coloured by the provider... for instance many many years ago a firearm expert called Hogg published an article about the Stechkin machine pistol, which became the standard western description of the weapon... it was big and heavy and unwieldy its rate of fire was too high and its ammo too weak and all machine pistols are obsolete so it is really junk and the only reason they had a few token models was because of nostalgia for broom handle Mausers which were particularly popular in Russia before WWI.

    That article/paragraph was repeated in every military magazine and weapons book published afterwards.

    In the mid 1990s in Combat and Survival magazine a guy finally got the chance to test one and he thought it was fantastic. He said it is big and heavy.... but not as big and heavy as a 45 calibre colt pistol and it held 20 rounds of 9mm instead of 7 rounds of 45... The 9mm round it fired was not a hot loaded high energy round but it made the same 9mm hole that western pistol ammo did and three holes would do more damage than one .45 in hole would. He said that like any fully auto weapon the key is controlled bursts and in that way it is very similar to a very small SMG. It explained why Soviet teams kept using it... though not all departments had money for new gear, even those that did kept using some because its features were unique.

    I realise the publicly released stuff was part of the propaganda war but pretty much anything negative was considered true and anything positive was Soviet Propaganda and there was always inuendo over anything proven to be good... AKs were reliable but not accurate and were basically copies of a German gun etc etc

    I also remember the time we did war games and a major from USA Intel came and he played Russian commander for the exercise and he won he clearly knew the capabilities and best way to use them. Our Lt col was not happy hahaha I was laughing inside

    Well then he is an idiot... such things should be about learning and improving for the real thing and not about winning and ego... it is like those Soldier of fortune magazine reports about logistics units in the US army that had women in them that did an A1 job... till the testing officer got suspicous at how easily some of the smaller women in the unit seemed to be handling large heavy boxes of ammo and equipment and he tried it himself only to find they were empty because none of the women in the unit could pick up full ones let alone carry them.

    From not knowing it existed to being told by western sources that it was the cheap replacement for the Fagot... and now the suggestion that it might not have been so widely deployed as I thought... I don't care about being wrong, I just want the truth.

    Even if the Metis was selected to replace all Fagot systems it could not replace the vehicle launched systems... which is BMP-1/2 and BRDM-2 mounts.

    I recently came across a description of the Fagot and Konkurs on the BRDM-2 chassis where the loadout was described as either 15 Konkurs rockets (effectively HOT or TOW equivalents) or a mix of 10 Konkurs missiles and 10 smaller Fagot missiles. Now in a built up area an extra 5 missiles would be useful and the 2.5km range of Fagot is still rather good as many targets probably wouldn't be visible from much further away.

    But on the BMP-2 and then retrofitted to what then became the BMP-1 the launcher was a dual launcher too so could use Konkurs or Fagot... but it would not make sense to use Metis in any of those situations.

    The normal infantry carried Fagot system would be carried in the back of an MTLB most likely most of the time but for dedicated anti tank they had the BRDM-2... which has been largely replaced by the MTLB based Shturm/Ataka system... which is likely now in the process of being replaced by the very similar looking Krisantema on the same vehicle but of course with a radar antenna added.

    I would think the Metis would make sense for special forces... VDV and Spetsnaz and Naval Spetsnaz.

    The new model of Metis... the Metis-M2 or is it 3 has a range of 3km and I suspect it is a cross between Kornet/Bulat and Metis with no trailing wire so it can fly much faster and would become a much more sensible replacement for Fagot on obsolete vehicle and man portable mounts

    KBP used to have a news page where they listed when their gear was introduced by the Russian military but I can't seem to find it... Russian military procurement is a very strange thing... the Makarov has been replaced several times yet you still see it everywhere... and things I have seen advertised for sale for decades were not in service in numbers... the Mi-28 and Ka-52 were good examples of that for a long time and they showed drones at airshows and displays all of the 90s and 2000s but it was only after 2008 that they actually started funding them and taking them beyond plastic mockups....

    There is a balance between using cheap older missiles and missiles that are just too old... the Sagger and Swatter don't come in protective tubes and the Fagot and Konkurs are still very capable systems with upgraded components I would assume... a comparison between the two generations is significant improvements in terms of accuracy and cost and weights, so while they all could be upgraded to be useful the fagot and konkurs are better protected from the elements.

    A comparison of Fagot and Metis is that metis is lighter and cheaper but has better range and the standardised mounts on BMPs are designed for it and not for metis. Both are wire guided and have similar flight speed and penetration most likely and both are in a protective tube...

    I would believe they still use Fagot and Konkurs, but the new vehicle upgrades are basically eliminating the Konkurs and Fagot launcher for either Ataka or Kornet... so with the phasing out of such systems that might be what the new model Metis is for.... 3km range with the same laser beam riding guidance as Kornet.... so for Boomerang IFV crews with a 57mm high velocity gun and four Kornet-EM missiles and 8 Bulat short range missiles, perhaps the troops in the back will get a portable missile launcher that can fire the new 3km range manportable Metis-M2 or 3, but also launch any remaining Bulat or Kornet missiles too as a dis-mountable system...

    I know you are asking why Metis-M2/3 if there is Bulat, but Bulat is for use against lighter targets that are moving so IFVs or drones so you don't need to waste Kornets which are needed for heavy targets. Metis-M2/3 is for heavy targets too... but out to 3km or so, while Bulat might reach 5-6km, and of course Kornet-EM reaches armoured targets at 8.5km.

    First off I doubt British and USA intelligence got it wrong.

    To be fair would not be the first time... most western sources would tell you that the Russians used 37mm gun mounted cannons for anti tank warfare during WWII, but the guns themselves were low velocity large HE rounds that were more often used against enemy bombers...

    Secondly why would Russia design a system such as metis and not use it. It's far better than fagot which is outdated.

    But Fagot is not outdated... with a thermal sight it is every bit as capable as Milan with a thermal sight... and it has better range than Metis... the first models of which are more comparable with Dragon III... would you replace Milan with Dragon? Dragon is lighter than Milan and more portable... and terrible. (not suggesting Metis is terrible but weight is not really an issue in a fully mechanised force but range is...)

    I do believe that many fagot are still in service most likely down sheer amount of ammo but I believe metis and metis m are in service as well. Fagot with its max 600 penetration compared to metis m 900+ and the system being better across the board that Russia snubbed it?

    But with the 1980s models compared side by side the Metis had a penetration very similar to Fagot... about 500mm, but a much shorter range. In the 1990s when the improved Metis with a 1,5km range and better penetration came into view there was no money for large scale replacement.

    The Metis was not a cheap for export design... it was a simplify and reduce weight experiment intended for mobile warfare without vehicle support... more Spetsnaz than VDV (who have vehicles with Fagot/Konkurs launchers too). Because it was a very simple and very light weapon it is successful on the export market and a lot of its features found their way into other missiles, but I don't know that it was designed explicitly to replace fagot or even if it did.

    More than 100 servicemen and about 40 military hardware, including self-propelled artillery weapons Nona, 100-mm antitank guns Rapira, antitank missile complexes Metis and Fagot, were involved in the exercise.

    Nona is a VDV vehicle and use with marines means it could be old Naval Spetsnaz stocks of Metis and marines stocks of fagot were being used...

    Metis is cheap and although the early models were short ranged the newer models have improved... but Fagot has a serious range advantage over Metis and is portable enough and is used as a vehicle weapon option together with Konkurs.

    This needs more investigation I think..
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri May 29, 2020 4:18 pm

    As I said I dont believe it's in widespread use and most likely only being used by VDV spetznaz marines etc metis m has better penetration than even the most modern fagot. I didn't say fagot was useless it's still capable of taking out ifv apc etc bunkers and buildings also a good use for it as those don't move and fagot is cheaper to use against such targets. I think the older metis will most likely be phased out by metis m. Russia has been updating it's forces pretty good over the last decade so I wouldn't be surprised if it's brought more of metis m in. Fagot really isn't great at taking out modern MBT and although kornet is around it's more expensive than metis m.

    Hopefully more information will come forward
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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 29, 2020 5:26 pm

    As I said I dont believe it's in widespread use and most likely only being used by VDV spetznaz marines etc metis m has better penetration than even the most modern fagot.

    But doesn't that immediately counter the western intel view that the cheap Metis replaced the Fagot in service in the Soviet Union and now Russia?

    If Metis is only used by special forces because of its limited range, doesn't that make the claim that it didn't replace the Fagot in Soviet and Russian service an accurate statement too?

    I think for most troops range is more important than penetration... I mean the idea for these things is to attack the sides or rear of tanks by using obstacles like minefields and natural barriers like bridges they can or cannot cross so that you can engage them from distance from the side or rear?

    I didn't say fagot was useless it's still capable of taking out ifv apc etc bunkers and buildings also a good use for it as those don't move and fagot is cheaper to use against such targets.

    On paper that sounds like perfect logic, but in practise they would need to carry both to have the option... I have never heard of a metis mount on any BRDM-2 or BMP but they do have Fagot and Konkurs mounts, so I suspect the problem will be solved with whichever weapon they have to hand... I also suspect the Fagot would actually be more expensive than the Metis... but that would be what they had.

    I think the older metis will most likely be phased out by metis m.

    I would suspect special forces have used up the old missiles in training because it was probably always only ever meant for special forces and was never made in numbers to equip all the ground forces. Ironically I would think it would be both cheaper and much quicker to produce but I suspect the lack of range counted against it.

    Russia has been updating it's forces pretty good over the last decade so I wouldn't be surprised if it's brought more of metis m in. Fagot really isn't great at taking out modern MBT and although kornet is around it's more expensive than metis m.

    Well to be fair, while the ground forces AT units wont likely have had Metis as an option... being BMP and BRDM-2 mobile they would have had Konkurs missiles there too so even in the mid 1980s they could reach to 4km and get 800mm of penetration which was in fact actually better performance than the US was getting from TOW at the time which was closer to 500mm than they like to admit.

    I remember articles in Combat and Survival talking about 1m penetration performance from Milan so it wasn't just the Americans being loose with the truth...

    The Milan used a standoff probe on its nose to improve penetration... Metis and Kornet use a rear mounted warhead and a front mounted precursor charge for the same effect...
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri May 29, 2020 9:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    As I said I dont believe it's in widespread use and most likely only being used by VDV spetznaz marines etc metis m has better penetration than even the most modern fagot.

    But doesn't that immediately counter the western intel view that the cheap Metis replaced the Fagot in service in the Soviet Union and now Russia?

    If Metis is only used by special forces because of its limited range, doesn't that make the claim that it didn't replace the Fagot in Soviet and Russian service an accurate statement too?

    I think for most troops range is more important than penetration... I mean the idea for these things is to attack the sides or rear of tanks by using obstacles like minefields and natural barriers like bridges they can or cannot cross so that you can engage them from distance from the side or rear?

    I didn't say fagot was useless it's still capable of taking out ifv apc etc bunkers and buildings also a good use for it as those don't move and fagot is cheaper to use against such targets.

    On paper that sounds like perfect logic, but in practise they would need to carry both to have the option... I have never heard of a metis mount on any BRDM-2 or BMP but they do have Fagot and Konkurs mounts, so I suspect the problem will be solved with whichever weapon they have to hand... I also suspect the Fagot would actually be more expensive than the Metis... but that would be what they had.

    I think the older metis will most likely be phased out by metis m.

    I would suspect special forces have used up the old missiles in training because it was probably always only ever meant for special forces and was never made in numbers to equip all the ground forces. Ironically I would think it would be both cheaper and much quicker to produce but I suspect the lack of range counted against it.

    Russia has been updating it's forces pretty good over the last decade so I wouldn't be surprised if it's brought more of metis m in. Fagot really isn't great at taking out modern MBT and although kornet is around it's more expensive than metis m.

    Well to be fair, while the ground forces AT units wont likely have had Metis as an option... being BMP and BRDM-2 mobile they would have had Konkurs missiles there too so even in the mid 1980s they could reach to 4km and get 800mm of penetration which was in fact actually better performance than the US was getting from TOW at the time which was closer to 500mm than they like to admit.

    I remember articles in Combat and Survival talking about 1m penetration performance from Milan so it wasn't just the Americans being loose with the truth...

    The Milan used a standoff probe on its nose to improve penetration... Metis and Kornet use a rear mounted warhead and a front mounted precursor charge for the same effect...

    No it doesn't counteract it. Because of the dire state of armed forces and economic issues in 1998-99 up take of such systems was slow right across Russia for years. Intel stated metis was to replace fagot but VDV spetznaz marines etc would obviously get those first before forces sitting in the east etc. And in the late 90's Soviet stocks still on abundance slow it wasn't priority at the time to out roll on mass
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri May 29, 2020 11:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Thanks for the info... so you were in the Navy yes?

    You weren't naval infantry were you?

    Seems silly we have both been on this forum for so long and I never asked you before.

    Yeah Navy, Northern Fleet

    Not Naval Infantry (was offered it a couple times, probably should have accepted). Coastal forces/troops. So basically the navy's land-based personnel for coastal artillery, radio bases, supply bases, naval airforce bases - it all falls under the mandate of this sub-branch.

    Heaviest thing we had was an RPK. No ATGMs unfortunately Razz
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 30, 2020 11:53 am

    No it doesn't counteract it. Because of the dire state of armed forces and economic issues in 1998-99 up take of such systems was slow right across Russia for years. Intel stated metis was to replace fagot but VDV spetznaz marines etc would obviously get those first before forces sitting in the east etc. And in the late 90's Soviet stocks still on abundance slow it wasn't priority at the time to out roll on mass

    But Metis could have been produced all during the 1980s in large numbers because money was being spent then.

    If the plan was to go with Metis over fagot then at least since 2008 when they started spending money on the military it would have been cheaper to eliminate the more expensive fagot and replace its production with the cheaper, if shorter ranged Metis... but they clearly have not.

    The only logical reason for that is that it was never intended as a fagot replacement... the first Metis missiles are smaller lighter calibre weapons and there has been no effort put in to making the Metis launcher compatible with the fagot or Konkurs launcher either...

    Heaviest thing we had was an RPK. No ATGMs unfortunately

    I always had a soft spot for the RPK... as a shooter I like the longer barrels for their improved performance with the same ammo... just extra weight to carry around of course but still...

    I remember reading in the late 1990s a website by a guy named Valary Shilin... or something like that who had a guns forum site and it included testing new 5.45mm ammo... one of which was armour piercing which when fired from an RPK-74 created a 3 shot group with centres 18mm apart at 300m... amazing.

    BTW thanks to both of you for sharing you professional experience, I do appreciate it... Smile
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 30, 2020 2:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    No it doesn't counteract it. Because of the dire state of armed forces and economic issues in 1998-99 up take of such systems was slow right across Russia for years. Intel stated metis was to replace fagot but VDV spetznaz marines etc would obviously get those first before forces sitting in the east etc. And in the late 90's Soviet stocks still on abundance slow it wasn't priority at the time to out roll on mass

    But Metis could have been produced all during the 1980s in large numbers because money was being spent then.

    If the plan was to go with Metis over fagot then at least since 2008 when they started spending money on the military it would have been cheaper to eliminate the more expensive fagot and replace its production with the cheaper, if shorter ranged Metis... but they clearly have not.

    The only logical reason for that is that it was never intended as a fagot replacement... the first Metis missiles are smaller lighter calibre weapons and there has been no effort put in to making the Metis launcher compatible with the fagot or Konkurs launcher either...

    BTW thanks to both of you for sharing you professional experience, I do appreciate it... Smile

    Kornet was defacto replacement for konkurs but due to cost and not everything is going to be a modern MBT konkurs was kept. Metis was originally used by vdv etc but they improve the range issue with Metis m up to 2km. And the reason I believe and others was it didn't see wide spread use for a variety of reasons
    1) sheer amount of fagot left in stock
    2) economic woes
    3) other priorities such as aircraft, AD systems, navy etc
    4) they wanted to improve it further

    On the last point they are still improving it to Metis M2 3km range. As you know over the decades Russia will sometimes procure small amount for testing and don't purchase huge amounts in til it is satisfied with it. Look how long it took to adopt BMPT while others were using it. My personal opinion is fagot will fade out and I admit it's taken longer than was originally expected as reasons above. Konkurs will be around for another decade or more to be honest when Metis came out in West it didn't raise many eyebrows sure it had on paper an impressive punch but short range. And we knew (another point for slow take up) we weren't going to be going head to head with Russia anytime soon. They were more worried about IRA, other Terror groups getting this equipment. Russia at that point they only threat they saw was it's intelligence network, geo politics/foreign policy, and it's influence over ex Soviet countries. To which the west's aim was to lose the Russian influence in those countries although they knew it would be very hard thing to do. And to be honest fast forward now only really Georgia and Ukraine have become hostile towards Russia and that was fairly recent in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately they want Afghan to explode over to those regions causing a problem for Russia in its back garden. I visited Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan including gorno badahkshan area a few years ago. it's not been the safest place for foreigners, due to extremists and Isis idealism brainwashing radicals. I remember reading road incident in Tajikistan where the driver ploughed into cyclists from various foreign countries and killed a few.

    I have a YouTube channel dtads tads and over 7,000 of my travels on FB of my adventures abroad. Been kinda quiet over last few years as was living in Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda for sometime. Still got many places I want to visit.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 31, 2020 8:37 am

    Kornet was defacto replacement for konkurs but due to cost and not everything is going to be a modern MBT konkurs was kept.

    Kornet didn't enter service till the late 1990s and can't really be compared to Metis in that regard.

    During the 90s and 00s there wasn't a lot of money but then there wasn't a huge need to replace them either... it is not like they (Fagot and Konkurs) were expensive... the most expensive components were the thermal sights and they were part of the launcher or not, rather than in the head of the consumable like with Javelin. For the Russian Army having upgraded Konkurs and Fagots was fine... a light target at less than 2.5km and you used a Fagot, and out to 4.5km you used Konkurs. Their BRDM-2s in their anti tank battalions changed to Shturm/Atakas after the 80s, so really to be honest there was no urgent need for replacement.

    Kornet is better than shturm or ataka but those missiles were not exactly cheap anyway... they were available in enormous numbers though...

    With the other vehicle mounted systems using the modified Fagot/Konkurs launcher there was not really a reason to add a small lighter cheaper missile... Fagot and Konkurs could kill tanks as close as 80m so an RPG filled that gap...

    The new vehicle upgrades of the old model vehicles have Kornet and Bulat.... it will be interesting to see if BMPT gets Kornet or Krisantema... and the brand new vehicles also seem to be getting Kornet and Bulat... and I suspect that means that the longer ranged model of the Metis family might remain special forces only because Bulat might be more portable but unable to take on MBTs from the front.

    Metis was originally used by vdv etc but they improve the range issue with Metis m up to 2km. And the reason I believe and others was it didn't see wide spread use for a variety of reasons

    It wasn't just the lack of range on the first model... the warhead was similar in performance to the old model Fagot too.

    With the modification of Metis to 950mm penetration and 2km missile range I actually don't think it would be that much smaller and lighter than Fagot any more, and it certainly couldn't be launched from vehicle mounts either.

    1) sheer amount of fagot left in stock
    2) economic woes
    3) other priorities such as aircraft, AD systems, navy etc
    4) they wanted to improve it further

    Number 1 very much so... especially when the performance of the Metis during most of that first decade was not better than Fagot anyway (similar pen and shorter range). Regarding economic woes, if it was better it was also cheaper so if for some strange reason they lost all their stocks of fagot and they needed to completely restock they probably could have gone with Metis but it wasn't better and they had existing stocks of a missile that did the job.

    Regarding 4, they had the tool for the job and it was in production and cheap enough to have as many as they needed... there was no real reason for change.

    On the last point they are still improving it to Metis M2 3km range.

    Indeed but the opportunity has passed... the joint Fagot/Konkurs launchers on vehicles (BMP and BRDM-2) are being replaced and it appears by a Kornet/Bulat combination which is actually smarter than the old mount. The old mount had one missile and could take either the large or the small missile. The value of the small missile was in ATGM vehicles like the BRDM-2 where more missile could be carried if you loaded the smaller missiles too. For the BMPs perhaps you could carry an extra 2-3 missiles if you mixed the smaller missiles with the big ones. With the Kornet launcher you can carry twice as many small Bulat missiles for each Kornet missile... I rather suspect with some modification that the new 57mm gun turret with four external Kornet launchers and one retractable Bulat launcher with 8 missiles that you could replace those 8 Bulat missiles with 4 more Kornet missile tubes and teh same could be done on the Tigr with the two Kornet quad launchers... ie four Kornets or 8 Bulats.

    If that is the case then the Metis basically becomes a man portable only missile, though the man portable version should be a single missile launcher and should also therefore be able to load and launch Bulat and Kornet depending on the mobility requirements and the targets likely to be encountered.

    In some third world countries the best armour you might come up against could be a T-55 with sandbags on it... so you could carry a lot more Bulat missiles than Kornet ones.

    As you know over the decades Russia will sometimes procure small amount for testing and don't purchase huge amounts in til it is satisfied with it. Look how long it took to adopt BMPT while others were using it.

    The BMPT is a tricky one... with the Armata family of MBT level protected vehicles the IFV in the armata family with the troop section filled with extra ammo or fuel and the BMPT concept becomes a little redundant. Conversely a BMPT type vehicle would be a handy convoy escort or security vehicle or for use in situations where the enemy doesn't have armour and only infantry in which case a BMPT would be amazing as a firepower vehicle...

    In theory an IFV or BMP is designed to fight everything but defend itself from tanks while nearby friendly tanks deal with the enemy tanks. It is designed to do that with onboard weapons and troops. The purpose of the BMPT is to do the same but without the troops simply because the conditions make exposed troops too vulnerable to enemy fire.

    My personal opinion is fagot will fade out and I admit it's taken longer than was originally expected as reasons above. Konkurs will be around for another decade or more to be honest when Metis came out in West it didn't raise many eyebrows sure it had on paper an impressive punch but short range.

    I think vehicle upgrades to replace the faggot/konkurs launchers with Kornet and Bulat launchers will render them obsolete rather quickly... I suspect Metis-M2/3 (the new 3km range one) will replace old metis fairly quickly, but as long as the launcher it not too huge that the dismountable launcher for armoured vehicles that will likely be intended for Bulat and Kornet... which are both laser beam riding... could also be made compatible with the new Metis missile.

    Some brand new technology that makes tiny riflescopes able to have thermal cameras and GLONASS and wifi and laser range finders and target markers etc etc could lead to a launcher for Bulat and Metis and Kornet (over shorter distances) that might not be hugely different from the new RPO-M launcher... from the shoulder with Bulat... and on a tripod for new Metis and Kornet out to perhaps 4-5km (because of the thermal sights and systems in the reduced size launcher) while the vehicle mounted systems can engage targets to 10km for the HE equipped Kornet-EM and 8.5km for the anti armour model.

    To which the west's aim was to lose the Russian influence in those countries although they knew it would be very hard thing to do.

    What a short sighted thing to do... an isolated Russia is rather more likely to sell to anyone in desperation... everyone has to live... still it has resulted in a much stronger Russia and much more capable weapons...

    And to be honest fast forward now only really Georgia and Ukraine have become hostile towards Russia and that was fairly recent in the grand scheme of things.

    Yeah the irony is amusing... when they turn to the west for handouts being good little anti Russian poodles they say... no. But that it is Russias fault...

    Ultimately they want Afghan to explode over to those regions causing a problem for Russia in its back garden. I visited Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan including gorno badahkshan area a few years ago. it's not been the safest place for foreigners, due to extremists and Isis idealism brainwashing radicals. I remember reading road incident in Tajikistan where the driver ploughed into cyclists from various foreign countries and killed a few.

    Yeah... promote radicalism... that normally works so well... wasn't there a story of two women from europe... Scandinavia I think, that got run off the road in one of those places and decapitated on video... I am sure it is western intels finest hour...

    I will never understand the west... they think helping head choppers in Syria and other places is a good counter to Russian influence.... as an independent observer on the other side of the planet (well not that independent living the western dream... right...) and I think what are you guys doing... you attack and sabotage and undermine democracy all around the world... you claim it is because Russia is a threat and Russia is dangerous... looks more like the west is the criminal actor to me... when they were poor you didn't even ignore them... Clinton used Yeltsen like a puppet and robbed the place mercilessly for a decade... I actually don't understand why they don't hate our guts... thanks to Trump they are coming around though.

    I have a YouTube channel dtads tads and over 7,000 of my travels on FB of my adventures abroad. Been kinda quiet over last few years as was living in Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda for sometime. Still got many places I want to visit.

    Did enjoy the weapon vid with the RPG... scary... would rather do that sort of thing in China or Russia on a proper army base...
    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2

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    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 19 Empty Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun May 31, 2020 11:38 am

    @garryb I wasn't comparing kornet and metis lol. I said kornet was defacto a replacement for konkurs but as stated various reasons as why not fully replaced.

    I think metis and metis m sort came along at the wrong time. Sure metis was good for VDV spetznaz marines etc but range an issue. And when metis m came along Russia didn't have huge amounts to spend on Armed Forces and still had loads of fagot in storage and had no plans of any conflicts of any kind. Chechnya they had enough weapons in storage to deal with this regional internal war.
    So now bulat, and kornet came along and Russia has the money now I doubt even metis m2 will see much service maybe still with only VDV spetznaz marines as long as it remains fairly man portable. And although metis m saw some export success still not massive and that's probably down to cost vs fagot and konkurs, Russia also wanting to clear older stock, and then there is also the fact if a country is using fagot and konkurs already to save on training costs most likely stuck with what they know, and you also have the other factors of ex Soviet countries selling off excess stock of fagot and konkurs to other countries and other countries making copies, you also have an increase of homegrown designs of ATGW which reduces the market for such missiles, metis m type missiles most countries with a decent arms industry can make something similar. Kornet is a different case all together

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