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auslander
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Tsavo Lion
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28 posters

    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    PapaDragon
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    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Page 4 Empty Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  PapaDragon Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:26 pm


    Tsavo Lion wrote:.....

    Oh you mean SOLD us military equipment? Pardon your extremely limited vocabulary.

    Everything you mentioned we purchased for money.

    As for MiGs they had option of dumping some old ones to block competition from selling us something different or risk going against other suppliers and losing another market slice.

    Were Russians "sending arms and military help" to Chinese and Indians when they were selling them jets and AA systems?

    Given Russian track record I don't want them helping us, thanks but no thanks. Their "help" tends to amount to being swindled and thrown under the bus at first available opportunity.

    Strictly business with them, much safer that way.


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:43 pm

    Even if true, who else would sell similar arms to Serbia, & at those or lower prices? At least ur gov. didn't say "no thanks", since it knows that it's better than nothing.
    I doubt the Serbs will find any closer friends anywhere.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:35 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if true, who else would sell similar arms to Serbia, & at those or lower prices? At least ur gov. didn't say "no thanks", since it knows that it's better than nothing.
    I doubt the Serbs will find any closer friends anywhere.

    We have entire planet to pick from (and we already do): French missiles, European helicopters​, Chinese UAVs, Israeli comms, etc

    Russians stuff is predominantly mid to low quality gear with suspiciously steep prices for what it does

    Plus we make most of our weapons since forever

    This isn't some Middle East or Central Asian sh*thole that Russians are accustomed to dealing with

    Besides, if we ever wanted to get loads of weapons for free (and damn good ones) all we have to bring is rubber stamp sanctions on Russia and watch the merchandise come pouring in

    We don't do it because we opt not to (and are getting loads of crap for it routinely) but that's our choice

    So the way I see it it's Russians who will have hard time finding closer friends than Serbs not other way around because being friends with them gives you next to nothing while ditching them brings hell of a lot

    Still we choose not to ditch them


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:53 am

    Because those who make decisions r a lot smarter than u! All u can do is to bitch about it here.
    Serbia will get in huge debts with Western arms. The West doesn't do anything for free or w/o some benefit- free cheese is only in a mouse trap.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:38 am

    Yes you can because while it's God given right of every Greenlander to live in glorified zoo without​ any hope for future and with record suicide rates all in the name of Gaia the goddess of Earth​, most Serbs would look into alternatives after a while

    Funny you say that because Serbia is trapped in its own zoo surrounded by NATO and EU zoo keepers who probably have other ideas for the land you currently live on. It is only a matter of time before Serbia enters NATO and the EU an starts drinking the bottled water... Monsanto brand I believe...

    Interesting that you think you know enough about Greenland to be able to tell them what they should or should not be doing.

    Oh really? Russians sent us arms and military help?

    Holy sh*t, what a turn of events!!! When did this happen, I must have missed it?

    Of course... when the west wanted to crush serbia for all that genocide it was Russia that opened the gate for them and told them to have at it...

    Given Russian track record I don't want them helping us, thanks but no thanks. Their "help" tends to amount to being swindled and thrown under the bus at first available opportunity.

    Strictly business with them, much safer that way.

    No friends, just interests... so American, but lets just ignore their situation at the time and the limits of what they could or could not do.

    We have entire planet to pick from (and we already do): French missiles, European helicopters​, Chinese UAVs, Israeli comms, etc

    And why not, I am sure those french missiles and european helicopters are made by the same people that so recently bombed you for your terrible crimes against humanity.... you know... being friends with Russia, but clearly they have cured you of that sin and you are going to be a good bitch now.

    Russians stuff is predominantly mid to low quality gear with suspiciously steep prices for what it does

    Generalisations are always accurate.

    Plus we make most of our weapons since forever

    It is how you beat NATO isn't it?

    This isn't some Middle East or Central Asian sh*thole that Russians are accustomed to dealing with

    Of course, you are so proud you think Russia didn't save you when you took on all of NATO so Russia can go fuck itself and you will be on your own like a martyr taking on all evil in the world that you now realise is not America, but those who oppose their will because it is just easier to give up... eh Greenland?

    Besides, if we ever wanted to get loads of weapons for free (and damn good ones) all we have to bring is rubber stamp sanctions on Russia and watch the merchandise come pouring in

    Damn gay ones I think you meant if you mean American second hand 40 year old F-16s but with no air to air missiles because you are not a reliable ally yet... just a useful idiot.


    We don't do it because we opt not to (and are getting loads of crap for it routinely) but that's our choice

    Where does your martyrdom end? Maybe you should come out and admit to sucking uncle sam dick and gobble down all that protein like a two bit whore...

    So the way I see it it's Russians who will have hard time finding closer friends than Serbs not other way around because being friends with them gives you next to nothing while ditching them brings hell of a lot

    Still we choose not to ditch them

    Clearly you mean we as in serbia when you say not ditching them because you personally already called all their equipment crap and western equipment damn good, so you are whoring yourself, just not your country yet.

    Go on... let go... you clearly want to.

    Serbia will get in huge debts with Western arms.

    Serbia is surrounded by NATO and the EU, what they should do is join the EU and then say that because they are part of the EU then NATO cannot be a threat, so if you don't join NATO you don't have to spend 2% on defence... you could disband your military and use the money saved on investing in infrastucture and hospitals and schools and shame the rest of europe to spend more money on their own people instead of funding a military organisation used by the US to invade and intimidate around the world... if you are not part of NATO I doubt Russia could care less if you joined the EU so your relations with them should be fine.
    kvs
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    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Page 4 Empty Re: 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

    Post  kvs Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:22 pm

    Bitching about Russia from Serbs takes the cake for thick and rich BS. Back in 1998 Russia was imploding thanks to comprador Yeltsin's fellatio of yanqui economics gurus.
    It was in no position to save itself let alone save some isolated Balkan state. However, the gang rape of Serbia by NATO in March of 1999 helped to crystalize the Russian
    military into action leading to the installation of Putin and the unseating of Yeltsin. But Serbia's treatment at the hands of NATO was not the only factor and the economic
    meltdown in 1998 facilitated by Yeltson's GKO Ponzi racket was the primary factor.

    As of now Serbia is no longer Russia's friend but some EU appendage. Russia has no obligations to Serbia and expects nothing from it. Russia is already surrounded
    by demented idiots in the Baltics, Banderastan and slimier slime farther out (Poland, Bulgaria). It is vastly better not to have any friends at all than to have resentful,
    backstabbing "friends" such as those. They latched their carts to yanqui imperialists, so now let the yanquis feed them. When the yanquis finally sink into the quicksand
    of their own exceptionalist shit, then Russia should give a swift boot to the face of these grovelling chihuahuas as they try worm their way back in Russia's good graces.
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    Azi

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    Post  Azi Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:31 pm

    Bullshit! Russia and Serbia have a close historic relation, not of religion or culture, because other countries are closer to Russia or otherwise Serbia. The relation results from the same enemies and from endless fights against these enemies. It dates back to the fight for serbian independence from the Ottoman Empire, at the same time the Russian Empire fought the Ottoman Empire. So Serbia and Russia were many times brothers in arms and yes the culture is close. This relation is so close, that many Serbs voluntary fighting for Russia in Ukraine now and a lot of Russians were fighting for Serbia during the 90ies.

    Russia was in the 90ies not able to defend Serbia and we know it! But the aggression was not coming from Russia, the aggression was from "our friends" in USA and western europe.

    Serbs love their independance and they will never be licking and kissing the arse of Russia, like Poland is now kissing and licking the arse of USA. A membership in the EU would be good for Serbia. But it would be good for Russia too, that would be the trojanic horse inside the EU or let's write it positive the bridge between EU and russia thumbsup Serbia does not forget his true friends Wink
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:....Of course... when the west wanted to crush serbia for all that genocide it was Russia that opened the gate for them and told them to have at it....

    Now you are getting warmer  thumbsup

    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Page 4 9a404527df4c943b57d0c472d2186fb3



    GarryB wrote:....admit to sucking uncle sam dick and gobble down all that protein like a two bit whore...

    ...you are going to be a good bitch now.....

    Yeah, I'm not falling for another ban-bait again

    Look elsewhere this time



    GarryB wrote:....It is only a matter of time before Serbia enters NATO and the EU an starts drinking the bottled water... Monsanto brand I believe...

    Interesting that you think you know enough about Greenland to be able to tell them what they should or should not be doing.

    Location: New Zealand
     

    So how is that visa application process for one of those commie utopias going?

    Or is Starbucks Socialism still go-to ideology in rogue states such as New Zealand? Cool

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:14 pm

    In 1999, during an operation off Yugoslavia, Kursk covertly surveilled the US Navy warship Theodore Roosevelt, whose planes were bombing Yugoslavia. During this time, Kursk completed five simulated attacks on the Roosevelt, all of which were successful.
    https://02varvara.wordpress.com/tag/submarine/

    If it hadn't operated there, the USN/NATO would've most probably bombed more targets.
    Details & theories:
    http://www.pravdareport.com/society/121163-kursk_submarine/

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/623623/posts
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:38 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:In 1999, during an operation off Yugoslavia, Kursk covertly surveilled the US Navy warship Theodore Roosevelt, whose planes were bombing Yugoslavia. During this time, Kursk completed five simulated attacks on the Roosevelt, all of which were successful.

    Simulated? Awesome  thumbsup

    And successful as well, who knew?  lol1

    You know what they say, you can't fail if you just stick with simulation.



    Tsavo Lion wrote:...If it hadn't operated there, the USN/NATO would've most probably bombed more targets.  

    Carriers were irrelevant, almost everything was done with land based aviation



    Tsavo Lion wrote:Details & theories:
    http://www.pravdareport.com/society/121163-kursk_submarine/

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/623623/posts

    Ah yes, theories.

    Sum of all Russian military accomplishments until maybe couple years ago (final evaluation pending) Razz russia  


    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:54 pm

    Papa Dragon doesn't speak for the vast majority of Serbs...some points he makes are true but overall he is delusional

    Maybe we should start a separate topic in the appropriate part of the forum instead of derailing this one
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:34 pm

    Carriers were irrelevant, almost everything was done with land based aviation
    still, the Kursk was in harms way for the Serbs, & it also served the RF interests to monitor & keep the 6th Fleet in the crosshairs. After the VMF get bases in Libya, the C. Med. Sea & entrance to the Adriatic will be the next potential AD2 zone.
    As Slavs, I hope the Serbs won't become economic & mil. slaves to EU/NATO. Population  • 2019 estimate 6,963,764 (excluding Kosovo)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia#Demographics
    GarryB
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    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Page 4 Empty Rant about Russia and its lack of action in defence of Serbia/Kosovo

    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:10 am

    Now you are getting warmer

    Of course... because Russia didn't start WWIII over Kosovo they are your worst enemy... worse than the actual countries that actually bombed you and humiliated you internationally... right.

    Yeah, I'm not falling for another ban-bait again

    Look elsewhere this time

    I admit I am not proud of that comment and apologise because I now think I went too far.

    It was certainly not an attempt to bait you. I don't like banning anyone, and have not actually banned many members during my time as a mod here.

    There are no set hard and fast rules on bans... if I really wanted to any of the temporary bans I have given could easily have just been permanent bans, but if I can help it I would rather not ban at all... however rules are rules.

    Location: New Zealand

    So how is that visa application process for one of those commie utopias going?

    Or is Starbucks Socialism still go-to ideology in rogue states such as New Zealand?

    Yup, New Zealand... not the US of A, so when friends talk about getting gas from the gas station I correct them and tell them their cars are not converted to run on LPG. In sport I also notice rugby commentators now talk of conference play instead of pool play which I didn't really understand until I found out that American Grid Iron has teams in conferences rather than in pools, which I am also resisting openly... because I am not now and have no wish for any time in the future to be assimilated by the Borg.

    You have clearly given up, and I am quite sad for you because that is how they get you. Social conditioning... aren't you a school teacher? I guess they have to convert you first because you will be teaching the next generation of serb boys and girls about the 5 genders and how homosexual relationships are just as valid... homo is a curse word now unless you are a homo and then it is a word of empowerment...

    Carriers were irrelevant, almost everything was done with land based aviation

    Wow, you know that but still think it is all Russias fault for telling your government that they can't win and to give up will reduce the suffering of their people and thinking they would be part of a UN peacekeeping force to ensure peace on the ground. They were probably as surprised as you were when they got screwed on that, but lets blame them for that too, because obviously they should have known everything well in advance anyway.

    Papa Dragon doesn't speak for the vast majority of Serbs...some points he makes are true but overall he is delusional

    Maybe we should start a separate topic in the appropriate part of the forum instead of derailing this one

    Two good points... when someone has stockholm syndrome and has attachment feelings to the people who kidnapped them and brutalised them, while having hostile feelings towards friends who couldn't help them at the time for not saving them from the whole experience... and I will move these posts too.

    As Slavs, I hope the Serbs won't become economic & mil. slaves to EU/NATO.

    They work their best magic on the young, who believe their BS...
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:25 pm

    That NATO can leverage resentment against Russia tells me all I need to know. Russia does not need such phony Slav "brothers". Let them wallow in
    in their resentment while getting it in all orifices from Uncle Scumbag.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:29 am

    Indeed, with friends who can turn on you so quickly and easily without trying to understand why things happen that happened... such friends can't really be called friends.

    And I really don't agree with the western definition either... a friend is a country that will back you up even after you brutally dismember and murder someone... no, I don't think so.

    The US backing the UK or vice versa no matter what is stupid and self defeating... lowering the standards and totally ruining any moral high ground you might ever claim to be on at any one time.

    If America was a good friend to the UK they would tell them they need actual evidence regarding the Skripal case before they start kicking out diplomats and calling for sanctions. Highly likely will just leave you with egg on your face internationally.... if I was Russia, I would be demanding apologies and compensation...
    auslander
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    1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Page 4 Empty Anniversary

    Post  auslander Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:42 pm

    I haven't forgotten what today is. Sad day and sad memory.

    https://sputniknews.com/europe/202003241078694857-on-this-day-21-years-ago-nato-bombing-of-yugoslavia-in-numbers/
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:56 pm


    We got only bare basic public commemorations this year due to curfew and quarantine
    auslander
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    Post  auslander Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:50 pm

    Yeah, I know, but I haven't forgotten and never will, just as  you never will. This was the watershed of my life as I'm sure it was for you and yours.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXQQuCbroao
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:06 am


    Thanks brother!
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:09 am

    I remember very well. And I feel ashamed that the government of my country (Italy) did not block at least US airforce planes stationed in the bases in Italy.  We could have done nothing for the Navy planes from the carrier, but at least we would not have had the blood in our hands too.

    Unfortunately we were and we remain a colony.
    Maximmmm
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    Post  Maximmmm Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:23 pm

    Another year passes and it becomes clearer and clearer that the dismemberment of Yugoslavia was the early-version prototype of US interventions abroad in a unipolar world. 1999 was just the last touch.
    As always, rest in peace to the victims.

    As for Serbs and Russians, I think there's a fundamental perception problem of the view the Russian elite have of the situation. The initial campaign against Yugoslavia and the bombing in 1994 (deliberate force, god the names they pick for their operations) is brushed under the rug because those were the early Yelts days and god knows we were too busy destroying our country to care about anybody else (something the elites don't like remembering since most of them are complicit). Then there's this fond memory of 1999 because of the airport rush and our place at the peace negotiations, but then the fact that we achieved all about jack shit and that all of it was in the aftermath of us doing nothing for nearly a decade is conveniently forgotten.
    I think if we wanted to re-ignite Serb-Russian relations we should be pragmatic with our approach. Serbia needs money and cannot stand by itself against EU and US pressures. We could invest in soft power initiatives (student and cultural exchanges, that sort of stuff) and fund lavish commemorations of both NATO campaigns. In the meantime, we need to identify where we can invest our money and get some of those lazy oligarchs to pour some investments into securing a strategic economic position in Serbia so that regular people more often see that our ties are important in the practical sense (regular people don't care about geopolitics).
    Selling a few military white elephants is the last thing we need, it's nice sometimes to throw a wrench in the mix like S400s in Turkey or get $ for the companies involved like India, but in the case of Serbia it's soft power that would go the distance.

    Recent years have really shown that Putin's government is worthless at realizing the impact of prolonged soft-power engagement. Same reason we lost Ukraine and are losing the younger generation in Belarus. Why are more Belorussians studying in Poland than Russia? Because they get grants. The return on funding a few thousand students a year to be engaged with our culture is immense in the long term, yet as with other soft-power approaches everything has atrophied.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:08 am

    Recent years have really shown that Putin's government is worthless at realizing the impact of prolonged soft-power engagement. Same reason we lost Ukraine and are losing the younger generation in Belarus. Why are more Belorussians studying in Poland than Russia? Because they get grants. The return on funding a few thousand students a year to be engaged with our culture is immense in the long term, yet as with other soft-power approaches everything has atrophied.

    I agree with you, but the way the Ukrainians accepted murdering Russian speaking Ukrainians and their government bombing and shelling Ukrainians because they didn't like laws restricting the use of a language they were used to using makes me really think Russia dodged a bullet there... they were total bastards, and to be honest I think Russia is honestly better off without them.

    The fact that they are half of Russias land bridge to the EU means nothing when you accept that the EU accepted and did not complain when Russian speaking Ukrainians were burned to death in buildings because they spoke Russian... I really don't understand why you guys don't realise what sort of scum these people are... they are only 10% of the worlds population... or even less really... the US dollar is not backed up by anything at all... it is literally monopoly money... so claiming they are rich is bullshit as well.

    My experience is that the richest people are the tightest people and the least nice... they treat others like scum or losers or stupid or criminals, and probably spend less money on products than poorer people who can't afford to buy in bulk and demand discounts or special deals.

    They have flashy sales people and their stuff looks bright and shiny... but most is made in China these days anyway.

    Serbias way forward would be to join the EU as fast as they can but avoid HATO like the plague, so they can spend what they want on weapons... right now they really don't need much at all, and they can use that extra money to improve standards of living and infrastructure in the country...

    kvs likes this post

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:49 am

    "Recent years have really shown that Putin's government is worthless at realizing the impact of prolonged soft-power engagement. Same reason we lost Ukraine and are losing the younger generation in Belarus. Why are more Belorussians studying in Poland than Russia? Because they get grants. The return on funding a few thousand students a year to be engaged with our culture is immense in the long term, yet as with other soft-power approaches everything has atrophied".

    Yes, this strategy was coined by Hitler himself.

    "He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future"

    Basically, we don't need to fight Russia, we can take everything away from them simply by doing as you say, give grants. Educate the young, the young will grow up, and with Western ideals installed, it's beyond easy to rip the carpet out from under the Russians. Putin has shown he cannot handle or doesn't know how to deal with this tactic, The Russians know we are doing it. Yet they seem unable to do a dam thing about it.


    Maximmmm
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    Post  Maximmmm Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:41 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    "He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future"

    Basically, we don't need to fight Russia, we can take everything away from them simply by doing as you say, give grants. Educate the young, the young will grow up, and with Western ideals installed, it's beyond easy to rip the carpet out from under the Russians. Putin has shown he cannot handle or doesn't know how to deal with this tactic, The Russians know we are doing it. Yet they seem unable to do a dam thing about it.



    I think the west doesn't realize that this is a double-edged sword. See, I grew up in the west with these "western ideals" and I see the people it produces. It makes kids into sheep that don't believe in the concept of nations, patriotism, global conflicts or anything strategic and bound by the realities of life. They think that you can just live like an idealist and everything will be fine. They forget it is the US military umbrella that has kept them safe and free to let their armies atrophy for decades.
    For now while there are still politicians in power that think more rationally about global events, this can be mitigated. But you already see the fractionation of parties all over the west, you see every level of government slowly grinding itself to a halt. Once these people without nations are in power, the west is dead.
    Russia has a ton of problems and we certainly have our share of these sheep-like idealists, god knows I've met these people in the science sphere in the west. It's like talking to robots: "Russia is terrible", sure but what about all these things that are terrible here? "yes they're also bad", so maybe we're not that bad? "No, Putin must go"
    However, we also have conscription and efforts by citizens and government to promote patriotic education. Yes, people on the street in Moscow can't even name a single WW2 battle, but the people in the small towns and the villages still live and breathe like Russians. That has always been the case, our state is held up on the backs of people who fill the voids between the few large europeanised metropolises.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:44 pm

    Russias popular schools are military academies still.  The growth of military academies since the 90's issue has risen a decent amount.

    Add to that all the NGO's of the west who have now been black listed, Russia is finally putting a stop to it. But it took too long and some damage has been done.

    But there also has been somewhat of an interesting turn of events - the youth are becoming nationalistic. Parties like LDPR and Rodina are gaining popularity where they didn't in the past - youth.

    I don't know if that is a good thing either.

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