Vietnam War Aircrafts Losses: NVPAF and USAF

I think a topic about history is necessary, in order to see and understand what about soviet, US aircrafts.
It is a good evaluation to see, what was the soviet, and US behaviour during war.
It is fundamental to recall that North Vietnam was about 20-25 millions persons, poor third world country, just independant since 1954. Most of this country was agricultural, Industry did not be developped as now.  If I remember VPAF has not more than 200 aircrafts-if someone please could complete, i would be appreciate very much-
Is it nessecary to recall what about USA ? The first and main industrial country in the world during that time. No use to tell more about
US air force, or US Navy.
Untill recently, -because of western propaganda- I used to think that Mig 21 was useless, and most soviet aircrafts, no use to add more about this insanity, the figures prove by themselves that my thougts are completly stupid, and nonsense.

Moreover I don't  say that US pilots are tackies, they were very good soldiers. Neither I said US aircrafts were/are  poors.
I think following the figures we can fairly say that US aircrafts and soviet aircrafts about same qualities, however I can easily say a little ahead for Mig 21, and Mig 19.
It is worth to add that an aircraft as the F105 following the losses was removed from his fighter's role.
This figures show also the fight between US'school -Top Gun-, and Soviet's school, chieftly for the pilots. In Krasnodar during the 60's, for example on 120 students, only 6 or 7 won their pilots brevet on Mig 17. I know that it about the same in France, England, Gemany, I suppose this is the same rate in USA.

The US government admitted about 2.000 aircrafts were lost in Vietnam, we have figures a minima, 2.000 aircrafts were downed, however we can fairly ask this question:
Has US Governement any interests to say the truth ?
My response is no, because the truth could simply hurt US industry, US political'leadership, Allies's confidence about the reliability of US weaponnery. As many US weapon are bought by Germany, Netherland, UK, Israel, Saudy Arabia, Indonesia, Morrocco, Brazil, Argentina, Spain...

To follow the US statistics or about,
see here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_losses_of_the_Vietnam_War

But in order to avoid US propaganda this link is much more accurate.

http://myplace.frontier.com/~anneled/usloss.html

What it amazed me is the Mig 17. How and old, outdated subsonic fighter, with its primitif radar, without AA missile, could downed most US supersonic aircraft : F105, F4 Phantom, F8 Crusader, .... I had to wait Internet to see that. It's crazy. Here you can see the very efficiency of the Mig 21, and we can easily understand about his success, more than 12.000 aircrafts produduced. This is an exploit.

US Losses By Date

   Date   Victim               Crew               Service  Victor  Weapon Country          Pilot(s)              Source          Comments
16-Feb-64 C-123                                   USA      T-28    Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Ba             Toperczer    One survivor
15-Nov-64 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China   Kaitong Xu                Yao/Wagner
02-Jan-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF                    PR China   Huailian Zhang
24-Mar-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China   Xiangyi Wang              Yao
31-Mar-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China   Jicheng Su                Yao/Wagner
03-Apr-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG            PR China   Xiaohai Dong              Yao/Wagner
03-Apr-65 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Phan Van Tuc              Toperczer    Not confirmed
04-Apr-65 F-105D  Bennett                         USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tran Hanh                 WoF
04-Apr-65 F-105D  Magnusson                       USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Le Min Huan               WoF
09-Apr-65 F-4B    Murphy/Fegan                    USN      F-4B    AIM-7  USA                                  Lost while in combat with PRoC MiG-17s
18-Apr-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF                    PR China   Huailian Zhang
17-Jun-65 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Le Trong Long             Toperczer    Not confirmed
17-Jun-65 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-Jun-65 A-1H                                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-Jun-65 A-1H                                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-Jun-65 F-4C    Kari/Briggs                     USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer
20-Jul-65 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
03-Aug-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China                            
21-Aug-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China   Jicheng Su                Yao
20-Sep-65 F-104C  Smith                           USAF     MiG-19  Cannon PR China   Gao Xiang                 Smith/Yao
20-Sep-65 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Nhat Chieu         Toperczer    Not confirmed
05-Oct-65 F-104C or RA-3                          USAF     MiG            PR China   Yunbao Zhang              Isby/Yao     Not confirmed
14-Oct-65 F-105D  Schuler                         USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Roll Call
06-Nov-65 CH-3C   Lilly/Singleton/Naugle/Cormier  USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Hanh/Hung/Lan/Phuong      Toperczer    Attributed to ground fire
24-Dec-65 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China   Yilong Zhu                Yao/Wagner
03-Jan-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17         PR China   Xiangxiao Lu              Yao/Wagner
03-Feb-66 A-1H                                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Lam Van Lich              Toperczer    Not confirmed
03-Feb-66 A-1H                                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Lam Van Lich              Toperczer    Not confirmed
07-Feb-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Quanmin Feng              Yao/Wagner
04-Mar-66 F-4                                     USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ngo Duc Mai               Toperczer    Not confirmed
04-Mar-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi           Toperczer
05-Mar-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Xiaoqing Sun              Yao/Wagner
14-Mar-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi           Toperczer/Wagner
23-Mar-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Yilong Zhu                Yao/Wagner
12-Apr-66 KA-3B   Gleason/Jordan/Harris/Pugh      USN      MiG     Cannon PR China   Laixi Li                  Yao
25-Apr-66 RF-4C   Anderson/Tucker                 USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ho Van Quy                Toperczer
26-Apr-66 F-4C                                    USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ho Van Quy                Toperczer    Not confirmed
26-Apr-66 F-4C                                    USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ho Van Quy                Toperczer    Not confirmed
29-Apr-66 A-1E    Boston                          USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           Drendel
29-Apr-66 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China
05-Jun-66 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
05-Jun-66 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
07-Jun-66 F-105D  Bayles                          USAF     MiG-21  Rocket N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to AAA  
09-Jun-66 F-4                                              MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
09-Jun-66 F-4                                              MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
21-Jun-66 F-8E    Black                           USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Trung/Duong/Tan/Bay/Tuc                Attributed to AAA
21-Jun-66 RF-8A   Eastman                         USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Trung/Duong/Tan/Bay/Tuc   WoF          Attributed to AAA
29-Jun-66 F-105D  Jones                           USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Huyen/Man/Bay/Tuc         WoF          Attributed to AAA
29-Jun-66 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Huyen/Man/Bay/Tuc         Toperczer    Not confirmed
07-Jul-66 F-105D  Tomes                           USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Tran Ngoc Xiu             Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
11-Jul-66 F-105D  McLelland                       USAF     MiG-21  Fuel   N. Vietnam Dinh/Song                 Drendel/Toperczer
13-Jul-66 Unknown                                          MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Phan Than Trung           Toperczer    Not confirmed
14-Jul-66 F-8E    Bellinger                       USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ngo Duc Mai               WoF
19-Jul-66 F-105D  Diamond                         USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Vo Van Man                RollCall
19-Jul-66 F-105D  Steere                          USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Bien               Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
19-Jul-66 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Ba Dich            Toperczer    Not confirmed
29-Jul-66 RC-47   Conklin/Hoskinson+6             USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Luu Huy Chao              Isby
05-Sep-66 F-8E    Abbott (USAF)                   USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment              Toperczer
05-Sep-66 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
16-Sep-66 F-4C    Robertson/Buchana               USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           PoW-MIA
21-Sep-66 F-4C    Kellems/Thomas                  USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           Dorr
21-Sep-66 F-105D  Ammon                           USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
05-Oct-66 F-4C    Garland/Andrews                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
09-Oct-66 F-4B    Tanner/Terry                    USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Minh           Michel       Attributed to AAA
09-Oct-66 F-4                                     USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Minh           Toperczer    Not confirmed
02-Dec-66 F-4C    Burns/Ducat                     USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
02-Dec-66 F-4C    Flesher/Berger                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
02-Dec-66 F-105D  Moorberg                        USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
05-Dec-66 F-105D  Begley                          USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           PoW-MIA      Toperczer: MiG-21
05-Dec-66 F-105 or F-4                            USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
08-Dec-66 F-105D  Asire                           USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           Hobson       Toperczer: MiG-21
08-Dec-66 F-105D                                  USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
14-Dec-66 F-105D  Cooley                          USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Dong Van De               Michel
14-Dec-66 F-105D                                  USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
14-Dec-66 F-105D                                  USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
05-Feb-67 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
26-Mar-67 F-4C    Crow/Fowler                     USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
14-Apr-67 F-4B                                    USN      MiG            PR China   Yimin Song                Yao          Not confirmed
19-Apr-67 F-105F  Madison/Sterling                USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
19-Apr-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
19-Apr-67 A-1E    Hamilton                        USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tan/Tho/Trung             Michel
19-Apr-67 A-1H                                             MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tan/Tho/Trung             Toperczer    Not confirmed
24-Apr-67 F-4C    Knapp/Austin                    USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Man/Dich/Bay/Hon          Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
24-Apr-67 F-4B    Southwick/Laing                 USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Toai/Hai/Chao/Ky          Toperczer    
24-Apr-67 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Man/Dich/Bay/Hon          Toperczer    Not confirmed
25-Apr-67 A-4C    Stackhouse                      USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Bay/Hon/Bon/Dich          Dorr/WoF
25-Apr-67 A-4E    Crebo                           USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Bay/Hon/Bon/Dich          Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
25-Apr-67 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Bay/Hon/Bon/Dich          Toperczer    Not confirmed
25-Apr-67 F-105   Weskamp                         USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Toai/Hai/Chao/Ky          Toperczer    Attributed to SAM or AAA
28-Apr-67 F-105D  Caras                           USAF     MiG-21  Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
29-Apr-67 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG            PR China   Jintang Zhang             Yao
30-Apr-67 F-105D  Abbott,J                        USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Toperczer          
30-Apr-67 F-105F  Thorsness/Johnson               USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Le Trong Huyen            Toperczer    
30-Apr-67 F-105D  Abbott,R                        USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Ngoc Do            Toperczer        
30-Apr-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh              Toperczer    Not confirmed
12-May-67 F-4C    Gaddis/Jefferson                USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ngo Duc Mai               Michel
12-May-67 F-105F  Pitman/Stewart                  USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Huyen/Song                Toperczer    
12-May-67 F-105   Grenzebach                      USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tan/Tho                   Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
12-May-67 F-4C                                    USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tinh/Hai/Mai/Ky           Toperczer    Not confirmed
12-May-67 F-4C                                    USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tinh/Hai/Mai/Ky           Toperczer    Not confirmed
19-May-67 F-4B    Plumb/Anderson                  USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Phan Thanh Tai            Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
19-May-67 F-4B    Rich/Stark                      USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Ngyuen Huu Diet           Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
20-May-67 F-4C    Van Loan/Milligan               USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tai/Diet                  Michel
22-May-67 F-4C    Perrine/Backus                  USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Dang Ngoc Ngu             Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
12-Jun-67 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Guangcai Liu              Yao
26-Jun-67 F-4C    Blandord/Jarvis                 USAF     MiG-17  Cannon PR China   Jiliang Lu/Zhushu Wang    Isby/Yao
11-Jul-67 A-4                                     USN      MiG-21         N. Vietnam Huyen/Song                Toperczer    Not confirmed
17-Jul-67 F-8                                     USN      MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Nhat Chieu         Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-Jul-67 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam Do/Ngan                   Toperczer    Not confirmed
26-Jul-67 RF-4C   Corbitt/Bare                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    
09-Aug-67 RF-4C   Lengyel/Myers                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer
21-Aug-67 A-6A    Scott/Trembley                  USN      MiG-19  Cannon PR China   Ruijie Han                PoW-MIA/Yao
21-Aug-67 A-6A    Buckley/Flynn                   USN      MiG-19  Cannon PR China   Fengxia Chen              PoW-MIA/Yao
23-Aug-67 F-4C    Tyler/Sittner                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Michel                          
23-Aug-67 F-4C    Carrigan/Lane                   USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tho/Diep                  Toperczer
23-Aug-67 F-105   Baker                           USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Nhat Chieu         Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
23-Aug-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Cao Thanh Tinh            Toperczer    Not confirmed
23-Aug-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Cao Thanh Tinh            Toperczer    Not confirmed
23-Aug-67 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Tinh/Phong/Diep           Toperczer    Not confirmed
16-Sep-67 RF-101C Bagley                          USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Ngoc Do            Michel
16-Sep-67 RF-101C Patterson                       USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Pam Thanh Ngan            Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
17-Sep-67 RF-4C   Stavast/Venanzi                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
03-Oct-67 F-4D    Moore/Gulbrandson               USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
07-Oct-67 F-105F  Howard/Shamblee                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Michel
09-Oct-67 F-105D  Clements                        USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Roll Call
25-Oct-67 F-105   Horinek                         USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Huu Tao            Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
08-Nov-67 F-4D    Gordon/Brenneman                USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi           Michel
08-Nov-67 F-4                                              MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Dang Kinh          Toperczer    Not confirmed
18-Nov-67 F-105F  Dardeau/Lenhoff                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Michel
18-Nov-67 F-105D  Reed                            USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
19-Nov-67 F-4B    Clower/Estes                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Le Hai                    Michel       Attributed to Atoll
19-Nov-67 F-4B    Teague/Stier                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Din Phuc           Michel
19-Nov-67 F-4B                                    USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Phi Hung           Toperczer    Not confirmed
19-Nov-67 EB-66                                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Dinh/Kinh                 Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-Nov-67 F-105D  Butler                          USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc?           Michel
12-Dec-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
14-Dec-67 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17 Cannon  N. Vietnam                           Toperczer    Not confirmed
16-Dec-67 F-4D    Low/Hill                        USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
17-Dec-67 F-105D  Ellis                           USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dnh               Michel
17-Dec-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh              Toperczer    Not confirmed
17-Dec-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi           Toperczer    Not confirmed
17-Dec-67 F-4D    Fleenor/Boyer                   USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           Michel
17-Dec-67 F-4C    Brett/Smith                     USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
19-Dec-67 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Toperczer    Not confirmed
19-Dec-67 Unknown                                          MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
19-Dec-67 Unknown                                          MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
19-Dec-67 Unknown                                          MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Bui Duc Nhu               Toperczer    Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Bui Van Suu               Toperczer    Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-105                                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Ha Van Chuc               Toperczer    Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-105D  Bean                            USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Dang Kinh          Michel
05-Jan-68 F-105F  Hartney/Fantle                  USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam                           Michel
14-Jan-68 EB-66C  Mercer/Terrel +5                USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Kinh/Song                 Michel       Isby: MiG-17/Alkali
14-Jan-68 F-105D  Horne                           USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
18-Jan-68 F-4D    Simonet/Smith                   USAF                    N. Vietnam                           Drendel
18-Jan-68 F-4D    Hinckley/Jones                  USAF                    N. Vietnam                           Drendel
20-Jan-68 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Yongwu Han/Yongcheng Zhou Yao/Wagner
03-Feb-68 F-102A  Wiggins                         USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Michel
04-Feb-68 F-105D  Lasiter                         USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Michel
14-Feb-68 A-1H    Dunn                            USN      MiG-17         PR China   Wulu Chen/Shunyi Wang     Isby/Yao
23-Feb-68 F-4D    Gutterson/Donald                USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh              Michel
03-Mar-68 EB-66                                   USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Kinh/Thuan                Toperczer    Not confirmed
07-Mar-68 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Wenxing Jiang/Zhiyao Wang Yao/Wagner
15-Mar-68 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Zhixin Wang/Enhua Zhang   Yao/Wagner
18-Apr-68 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-19         PR China   Huailan Zhang             Yao/Wagner
07-May-68 F-4B    Christensen/Kramer              USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Michel
14-Jun-68 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Le Hai                    Toperczer    Not confirmed
14-Jun-68 F-4                                              MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Luu Huy Chao              Toperczer    Not confirmed
16-Jun-68 F-4J    Wilber/Rupinski                 USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Dinh Ton                  Michel
19-Jul-68 F-8                                     USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Le Hai                    Toperczer    Not confirmed
01-Aug-68 F-8                                     USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi           Toperczer    Not confirmed
17-Aug-68 F-4B    Gartley/Mayhew                  USN      F-4B    AIM-9  USA                                  Michel
19-Sep-68 F-8C                                    USN      MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
21-Sep-68 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Dang Kinh          Toperczer
26-Oct-68 F-4                                     USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-Dec-69 OV-1    Long                            USA      MiG            N. Vietnam
??-Dec-69 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Toperczer
??-Dec-69 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc            Toperczer
18-Jan-70 F-4                                     USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Phan Dinh Tuan            Toperczer    Not confirmed
28-Jan-70 HH-53B  Bell/Leeser +4                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh              Michel
10-Feb-70 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USN      MiG-19         PR China   Deqi Qi/Xincheng Zhou     Yao/Wagner
??-???-71 UH-1                                    USA      MiG-17         N. Vietnam
09-Mar-71 AQM-34  Unmanned                        USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Luong Duc Truong          Toperczer
18-Dec-71 F-4D    Johnson/Vaughn                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao              Drendel
18-Dec-71 F-4D    Stanley/O'Brien                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vo Si Giap                Drendel
18-Dec-71 F-4D    Hildebrand/Wells                USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam                           Michel
27-Apr-72 F-4B    Molinare/Souder                 USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Hoang Quoc Dung           Michel
08-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-19         N. Vietnam Nguyen Ngoc Tiep          Toperczer    Not confirmed
08-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-19         N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Son           Toperczer    Not confirmed
10-May-72 F-4D    Harris/Wilkinson                USAF     MiG-19  Cannon N. Vietnam Pham Hung Son             Ethell/Price
10-May-72 F-4D    Lodge/Locher                    USAF     MiG-19  Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Manh Tung          Ethell/Price
10-May-72 F-4E                                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Dang Ngoc Ngu             Toperczer    Not confirmed
10-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
10-May-72 F-4J    Blackburn/Rudloff               USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao              Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
10-May-72 F-4J    Cunningham/Driscoll             USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vu Duc Hop                Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
11-May-72 F-105G  Talley/Padgett                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Ngo Duy Thu               Michel
11-May-72 F-4D    Kittinger/Reich                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Ngo Van Phu               Michel
18-May-72 F-4D    Ratzel/Bednarek                 USAF     MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment              Toperczer
18-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-19         N. Vietnam 925 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
18-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi           Toperczer    Not confirmed
20-May-72 F-4D    Markle/Williams                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Do Van Linh               Michel       Attributed to stall/spin
23-May-72 A-7     Barnett                         USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat           O'Connor     Attributed to SAM
23-May-72 F-4D    Byrns/Bean                      USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
23-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-19         N. Vietnam Pham Hong Son             Toperczer    Not confirmed
23-May-72 F-4                                              MiG-19         N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Son           Toperczer    Not confirmed
24-May-72 F-8J    Beeler                          USN                     N. Vietnam                           Drendel      Attributed to SAM
01-Jun-72 F-4E    Hawks/Dingee                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Pham Phu Thai             Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
13-Jun-72 F-4D    Hanson/Fulton                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Pham Phu Thai             Michel
13-Jun-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam Do Van Lanh               Toperczer    Not confirmed
21-Jun-72 F-4D    Rose/Callaghan                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Do Van Lanh               Michel
23-Jun-72 F-4D                                    USAF     MiG-21  other  N. Vietnam                           Michel       Stall/spin - Not confirmed
24-Jun-72 F-4C    Grant/Beekman                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat           Michel
24-Jun-72 F-4C    McCarty/Jackson                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Nghia          Toperczer
24-Jun-72 F-4                                     USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Ngo Duy Thu               Toperczer    Not confirmed
26-Jun-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
27-Jun-72 F-4E    Cerak/Dingee                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat           Michel
27-Jun-72 F-4E    Miller/McDow                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Bui Thanh Liem            Michel        
27-Jun-72 F-4E    Aikman/Hanton                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Pham Phu Thai             Michel        
27-Jun-72 F-4E    Sullivan/Francis                USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Nhu            Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
27-Jun-72 F-4                                     USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Ngo Duy Thu               Toperczer    Not confirmed
05-Jul-72 F-4E    Elander/Logan                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Ha Vinh Thanh             Air Int
05-Jul-72 F-4E    Spenser/Seek                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam           Michel
08-Jul-72 F-4E    Ross/Imaye                      USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Dang Ngoc Ngu             Michel
10-Jul-72 F-4J    Randall/Masterson               USN      MiG-17  Cannon N. Vietnam Han Vinh Tuong            Toperczer    Possibly MiG-21
24-Jul-72 F-4E    Hodnett/Fallert                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam           Hobson
24-Jul-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam Ha Vinh Thanh             Toperczer    Not confirmed
24-Jul-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao              Toperczer    Not confirmed
24-Jul-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam Trong Ton                 Toperczer    Not confirmed
29-Jul-72 F-4E    Kula/Matsui                     USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam           Michel    
29-Jul-72 F-105G  Coady/Murphy                    USAF     F-105G  AIM-9  USA                                  Hobson       Own missile
30-Jul-72 F-4E    Brooks/McAdams                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat           Hobson
26-Aug-72 F-4J    Cordova/Borders                 USMC     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat
09-Sep-72 F-4E    Dalecky/Murphy                  USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Do Van Lanh               Toperczer    Attributed to AAA
11-Sep-72 F-4D    Ratzlaff/Heeren                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao              Michel
12-Sep-72 F-4E    Zuberbuhler/McMurray            USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam           Michel
01-Oct-72 F-4D                                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam                           Michel       Not confirmed
05-Oct-72 F-4D    Lewis/Alpers                    USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam           Toperczer
06-Oct-72 F-4E    Anderson/Latella                USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Nghia          Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
12-Oct-72 F-4D    Young/Brunson                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat           Michel
23-Dec-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
23-Dec-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
23-Dec-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
23-Dec-72 F-4                                              MiG-21         N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Toperczer    Not confirmed
27-Dec-72 B-52    Morris+6                        USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Pham Tuan                 Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
27-Dec-72 F-4E    Anderson/Ward                   USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Tran Viet                 Michel
27-Dec-72 F-4E    Jefcoat/Trimble                 USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Tran Viet                 Michel
27-Dec-72 F-4E                                    USAF     MiG-21         N. Vietnam Tran Viet                 Toperczer    Not confirmed
28-Dec-72 B-52    Lewis                           USAF     MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam Vu Xuan Thieu             Toperczer    Attributed to SAM
28-Dec-72 RA-5C   Agnew/Haifley                   USN      MiG-21  Atoll  N. Vietnam 921 Regiment              Dorr

If someone among you have more accurate figures please share...
Regards.

Very impressive nemrod, but i must ask (off topic) shouldn't these threads of the Vietnam and Korean war be in the "USSR Military History" threads in the "General Discussion" section of the forum??

AlfaT8 wrote:Very impressive nemrod, but i must ask (off topic) shouldn't these threads of the Vietnam and Korean war be in the "USSR Military History" threads in the "General Discussion" section of the forum??

Hello Alfa,
it is a good idea, hope you will open a new special topic "History".

nemrod wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:Very impressive nemrod, but i must ask (off topic) shouldn't these threads of the Vietnam and Korean war be in the "USSR Military History" threads in the "General Discussion" section of the forum??

Hello Alfa,
it is a good idea, hope you will open a new special topic "History".

No need, your already doing a pretty good job, i am just asking if you can repost them in the area for USSR Military History on this forum, just for consistency sake.

AlfaT8 wrote:

No need, your already doing a pretty good job, i am just asking if you can repost them in the area for USSR Military History on this forum, just for consistency sake.

OK let's go to USSR Military.

However, the pretty good jobs came from Mikoyan Gourevitch Bureau, Soviet pilots instructors, vietnamese, chinese students, against of course our chalengers US pilots, that were/are good pilots too.


Just to back to the subject, what it amazed me, is the exceptionnal performances of the outdated Mig 17. I was far, very far to imagine just an instant that this fighter with primitif radar, without missile could down the states of the arts US aircrafts in that time. From this fantastic aircraft went out few vietnamese aces that downed Phantom II, and F8 Crusader. For me a Mig 21 can more easily downed an F-22/F-35 than a Mig 17 downed F-4, F-8. Soviet engineers/instructors were absolute fantastics. It was a shame for US military machine complexe. For that reason they never admitted that Mig 21 downed witout any doubt several B-52, if not several tens of B-52.
I understan better why McNamara resigned, and was afraid to wage a war against China.


Now I realize why USA rushed to sign Talks as Salt, or any treaty with Russia. And Why Mig 17/19/21 success.
It is crazy!

I see very few kills made by the MiG-19, why is that? was it inferior in many ways to the -17 and -21 and if yes what were they?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:I see very few kills made by the MiG-19, why is that? was it inferior in many ways to the -17 and -21 and if yes what were they?

I will try to respond later, meanwhile there is other more importants subjects.

nemrod wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:I see very few kills made by the MiG-19, why is that? was it inferior in many ways to the -17 and -21 and if yes what were they?

I will try to respond later, meanwhile there is other more importants subjects.

Nope.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:I see very few kills made by the MiG-19, why is that? was it inferior in many ways to the -17 and -21 and if yes what were they?

At first these figures are not accurates, and it seems to be more a draft, than the truth. It will be very difficult one day to have the exact number of US aircrafts downed, as US lie intentionnaly, in order to save its prestige, its military industries, its leadership. Obviously, North Vietnam had to lie, in order to prove that it can resist, and can match US war machine, and US air force is far to be invicible-they were right-.
Obviously, if someone among you, has other more accurate figures, please do not hesistate.

It is hard question, the Mig 19 must be an excellent aircraft, and prove how effective he is, when he was piloted by a competent pilot.
As Rolling Thunder started in 1965, and ended november 1968, most of the NVPAF aircrafts were Mig 17. Mig 19 was operationnal in 1969, and participated beside Mig 21, and Mig 17 to Operation Linebacker I &II. Hence shared victories with Mig 17/21.
What were the NVPAF strategies regarding aircrafts ? Best pilots to the more modern Mig 21 ? As in that time, North Vietnam had very limited ressources compared to USA. Iam not a specialist, but it seems that Mig 19's behaviour was correct against US aircrafts.

It was said too that Chinese J-6 downed few US aircrafts among them Phantom II in the China's violation airspace.
It proved that the Mig 19 is very good fighter -as most of the soviet fighters-, once it was drive with competent pilot.

PS: Again Iam not a specialist, if someone with more accurates information could present other versions, it would be very helpfull.

The only accurate info you need to know is that he North Vietnamese air defences were not particularly successful in that war - especially the MiGs. Try comparing the number of American planes shot down with the number of sorties flown by the USA over North Vietnam. There is a calculated ratio losses/sorties flown. The MiGs failed big time...

nemrod wrote:
It is worth to add that an aircraft as the F105 following the losses was removed from his fighter's role.

I don't think the F-105 was ever used as a "fighter". Neither was the F-111.

nemrod wrote:
The US government admitted about 2.000 aircrafts were lost in Vietnam, we have figures a minima, 2.000 aircrafts were downed, however we can fairly ask this question:
Has US Governement any interests to say the truth ?

Losses and statistics were a big deal on both sides of the aisle back then. You could also make a theoretical argument that loss statistics were over-inflated by some to make the war less palatable and end it sooner. As it is, given the massive amount of politicking I'd be surprised if huge numbers of losses were ever covered up.

This is the problem with being in the West: do something someone doesn't like, and everything about you is forever questioned ever after. Loss reporting is traditionally one of the things the West has been forthcoming on, but if someone has a Milosevic poster on their wall then we must have lost thirty B-2s to Serbian handguns.

Besides, there were Russian advisers crawling all over the place, so Russia knew the situation. This would've been a perfect way to stick it to the USA without doing anything overtly confrontational. Countries tend to not miss out on those.

nemrod wrote:
My response is no, because the truth could simply hurt US industry, US political'leadership, Allies's confidence about the reliability of US weaponnery. As many US weapon are bought by Germany, Netherland, UK, Israel, Saudy Arabia, Indonesia, Morrocco, Brazil, Argentina, Spain...

What's the magic number then? 2500? 5000?

Political leadership had more than enough problems as it was. We could've lost 10 airplanes and it wouldn't have changed the political situation at all, the main issue with the number of casualties was always the guys on the ground.

Allies such as NATO members weren't affected much, since they knew that the things we were doing were constrained by asinine rules of the type that would not be present in, say, a war in Europe.

Industry kept moving along, a prime example being the F-16 sale to NATO: if everyone was so concerned about US equipment they would've picked the Mirage F.1. A more likely answer is that users of US equipment had first-hand knowledge of its capabilities, limitations, and quality, and had no issues using it going forward. Did people start dropping their F-4s because some got shot down? No, we sold a bunch more in fact.

nemrod wrote:
What it amazed me is the Mig 17. How and old, outdated subsonic fighter, with its primitif radar, without AA missile, could downed most US supersonic aircraft : F105, F4 Phantom, F8 Crusader, ....

The biggest issues were that 1) early AAMs were not overly reliable, which was an issue when you did not have a cannon onboard like early F-4s, and people were trying to do dumb things with them like use BVR-optimized AIM-7s as close-range WVR AAMs when they lacked the maneuvering ability and had SARH guidance, a stupid thing to try and use against a maneuvering target at close range, 2) we did a horrible job at ACMI training until people realized that there might be a reason behind a lot of fighters getting shot down by MiGs, 3) there were no serious EW/SEAD/DEAD tactics to counter the new experience of a SAM threat until much later in the war, and 4) ROEs prevented aircraft like the F-4 from using their radar/BVR missile combination effectively from long range (which may or may not have worked much better anyway given early AAM issues).

Were the NV MiG pilots good sticks? Of course. This stuff doesn't happen by accident. But there are reasons for the air campaign going the way it did (in terms of combat losses) which have been analyzed and thought over and reanalyzed for decades now.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:I see  very few  kills  made by the MiG-19, why is that? was it inferior in  many ways to the -17 and -21  and if  yes  what were they?

There were some reasons.

MiG 17 was very maneuverable and MiG 21 was very fast, MiG 19 basically had both to some extents. But North Vietnamese pilots did not like it mainly because of it's extremely short range. In addition this aircraft had 2 engines which were difficult to maintain, so it was not much popular in North Vietnamese airforce.

As for MiG 17's F 4 Phantom kills, then AAMs were newly built, US trusted them so much that they felt no need to equip their F 4 Phantoms with Cannons, but AAMs did not work so much as Americans expected, thus Americans were forced to redesign their tactic in air warfare.

Additionally North Vietnamese airforce tried to avoid direct confrontation with US air fleet. At first US was sending F-105 Thundercheifs fully loaded with bombs they were escorted by heavy F 100 Super saber not good against light MiG's, all though F 105 was faster than MiG 17, was not maneuverable, so North Vietnamese airforce MiG 17's sneaked into US formation opened a short burst of 23 mm and 37 mm cannon, and fled in low altitude where US aircrafts were ordered not to go. And 23 mm and 37 mm guns can do massive damage on aeroplanes.

I think it is almost all right, but:

1) The range of the Mig-19 (or Mig-17, or 21) I think was quite irrelevant: North Vietnamese Air Forces did not have to go to conquer any country from the air; so they had only to defend themselves by American attacks. A kind of close-in defense, o short-range defense.

2) A Vietnamese defense like the Nazi Germany against the Allied forces during the WWII I think not only impossible, but also useless: the North Vietnam did not have any industrial potential, actually  no industrial targets in the North Vietnam, so no need to defend them.

3) Against the USAF potential, no possibility for a country like the North Vietnam, so avoid a direct confrontation at all costs.

4) Mig-17/19/21 were excellent tactical fighters; but they must be used with great caution, because the pilots were very rare and too valuable to be wasted unnecessarily. The aircrafts are replaceable, if you have allies, the pilots a little less ... (the training takes time and money).

5) For a success, for the North Vietnamese forces was not necessary to obtain a kill at all costs. You attack with two Mig-17 a formation of F-105 loaded with bombs and they will be forced to drop the load (or part of it) to defend themselves. This was already a success, because their primary mission, without bombs, had already failed.

6) The primary enemy were the B-52s, because their enormous destructive power was a political weapon: actually the only real lethal weapon that the Americans have ever had in Vietnam.

7) The USA had international constraints that prevented them from vent to their full potential over the North Vietnam: above all the International public opinion and the proximity of the Chinese border, which was expected a no flight zone for the American planes, in order not to trigger the World War III ...

BlackArrow wrote:The only accurate info you need to know is that he North Vietnamese air defences were not particularly successful in that war - especially the MiGs. Try comparing the number of American planes shot down with the number of sorties flown by the USA over North Vietnam. There is a calculated ratio losses/sorties flown. The MiGs failed big time...  

How about the number of bombs the US dropped to kill one North Vietnamese soldier?
Talk about failing big time.

BlackArrow wrote:The only accurate info you need to know is that he North Vietnamese air defences were not particularly successful in that war - especially the MiGs. Try comparing the number of American planes shot down with the number of sorties flown by the USA over North Vietnam. There is a calculated ratio losses/sorties flown. The MiGs failed big time...  

Destroying one third of the B-52 in the process is a bad result in what way?

Vietnam air defenses proved to be of vital value during the war.

7) The USA had international constraints that prevented them from vent to their full potential over the North Vietnam: above all the International public opinion and the proximity of the Chinese border, which was expected a no flight zone for the American planes, in order not to trigger the World War III ... wrote:

This point is to an extent right, Americans had restrictions on air strikes and were not allowed to attack certain strategic important and high value targets like munition facilities, depots and logistical routes, the reason for this was not prevention of WW3 but only an on going war makes money to bail the shitty economy US was in out, like they did in WW1 to bail it out, WW2 again, than vietnam and Iraq for oil reasons and to make a world example on iraq for daring to try to avoid dolar with the petro-dollar.
The company ACME made so much money from rebuilding Vietnam, or better to say selling the necessary resources to rebuilding the country and a destroyed country is hell of a profit for such companies. Vietnam was forced into making credits with US banks.

[quote="GarryB"]

1) The range of the Mig-19 (or Mig-17, or 21) I think was quite irrelevant: North Vietnamese Air Forces did not have to go to conquer any country from the air; so they had only to defend themselves by American attacks. A kind of close-in defense, o short-range defense.

Range and endurance were very important... if you have to leave combat because you are low on fuel then that is of course a problem. More so if the enemy can follow you and engage you when landing or taking off again.

Yes, I know it, but anyway the Vietnamese forces had only to defend themselves, fighting over their friendly territory (so in addition, no problems with North Viet downed pilots). No need long-range strategic missions or combat air patrolling (impossible thing with the USAF and US Navy in the Vietnamese skies). So, when possible, only take-off on alarm and scramble, fire at the target and then go down at full afterburner without even see if you hit something of good. And these are things that planes like Mig-17/19/21 were designed for.

4) Mig-17/19/21 were excellent tactical fighters; but they must be used with great caution, because the pilots were very rare and too valuable to be wasted unnecessarily. The aircrafts are replaceable, if you have allies, the pilots a little less ... (the training takes time and money).

Training was provided with the new fighters.

Yes, but one thing is a paper diploma that says: "Military Pilot", and another thing is a (still alive) pilot with combat experience, and this kind of pilots is not easy to find.

7) The USA had international constraints that prevented them from vent to their full potential over the North Vietnam: above all the International public opinion and the proximity of the Chinese border, which was expected a no flight zone for the American planes, in order not to trigger the World War III ...

International concerns that never stopped them bombing neighbouring countries like Laos and Cambodia without any declaration of war.

International concerns that didn't stop them dropping more bombs on the region than were dropped during all of the second world war.

I think that only the public opinion  prevented the USA forces to raze the Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia like the lunar surface. If they wanted to, the U.S. could disintegrate the whole area from the sky. This was (and is, I hope) humanly and politically unsustainable: reduce to ashes a Country in order to save it from "the Communism"? I think is that the core of the problem: communism or not communism, the Vietnamese people fought for indipendence, this was that the Americans would not understand; otherwise, they would never have supported the French in the area and would never have gone to the war against the North Vietnam.

TR1 wrote:

BlackArrow wrote:The only accurate info you need to know is that he North Vietnamese air defences were not particularly successful in that war - especially the MiGs. Try comparing the number of American planes shot down with the number of sorties flown by the USA over North Vietnam. There is a calculated ratio losses/sorties flown. The MiGs failed big time...  

How about the number of bombs the US dropped to kill one North Vietnamese soldier?
Talk about failing big time.

Do you know how many bombs were dropped to achieve each enemy fatality? Did you think the Americans care to this very day how many bombs they dropped to achieve enemy fatalities?

How many bombs were dropped from US B-17s or rockets fired from Soviet Katyushas to achieve each nazi German military fatality? Who cares today?

Viktor wrote:

BlackArrow wrote:The only accurate info you need to know is that he North Vietnamese air defences were not particularly successful in that war - especially the MiGs. Try comparing the number of American planes shot down with the number of sorties flown by the USA over North Vietnam. There is a calculated ratio losses/sorties flown. The MiGs failed big time...  

Destroying one third of the B-52 in the process is a bad result in what way?

Vietnam air defenses proved to be of vital value during the war.

What do you mean by 'one third' - 200 B-52s lost?

Here's a link, educate yourself:

https://www.google.com/#q=b-52+losses+vietnam

BlackArrow wrote:

What do you mean by 'one third' - 200 B-52s lost?

Here's a link, educate yourself:

https://www.google.com/#q=b-52+losses+vietnam

How often do we have to tell you, Wikishemdia is no source for any military matters and also not for military history or war history.

Werewolf wrote:
How often do we have to tell you, Wikishemdia is no source for any military matters and also not for military history or war history.

I didn't post a Wikipedia link.

18 combat losses, btw. Some other airframes also wrote off due to combat damage.