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    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:43 am

    It probably includes an inflated amount for the Ukrainian engines to entice the Ukrainians to join the deal... doubt it will work though...
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:48 am

    Isos wrote:400 million $ for a Gepard ?! I would never buy it for more than 100 million $, if not less. For such price they can get a brand new Grigorovitch with much better capabilities and real air def systems.


    Well the previous contracts for gepard class was with Zelenodolsk shipyard, and i believe they cannot produce ships of the grigorovich class, also because they are an inland shipyard and they are limited by the internal waterways...the same company that controls Zelenodolsk shipyard also controls the large shipyard in Kerch, Zaliv (where in Soviet times many frigates were built)but if there is a faint chance that the Ukrainians would deliver engines for a ship made somewhere in Russia for export... there is exactly no chance that they would give the engines for something built in Crimea...

    Anyway,  how i was writing in the other thread, it is not correct that Russia is not developing gas turbine engines for smaller ships...

    In addition to the 27500 hp M90FR marine gas turbine, Saturn has already developed the smaller M75RU (7000 hp) and M70FRU (14000 hp) engines.


    However, as said before for the grigorovich frigates, adapting an existing design to a different power plant is worth only if they want to continue with it for a long time...

    Gepard class are nice cheap ships, but they are not comparable to other more modern classes of russian corvettes and frigates. If they have to partially redesign them to allow them to use the new powerplant it won't be cheap and easy anymore...better then to start with something new, e.g develop antisub version of 22160 (that has a similar size as Gepard class, maybe a bit smaller) armed also with UKSK launchers.

    If the ukraine would decide that in order to spite Russia they do not want to earn easy money and keep a few industries survive a bit longer, than Russia could propose Vietnam an export version of 20380/20385 with UKSK launchers (since they have the domestic kolomna diesel engines),  however they are bigger and more expensive ships than gepard class... but seeing the prices here i don't  know what to think...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:04 am

    Stop with Ukraine. Ukraine is not responsible for everything wrong in Russia.

    This price has nothing to do with Ukraine. For such price Vietnam could even ask a nuclear propulsion.

    That's a pathetic move from Russian corrupted shipyards. Vietnam will never buy them, specially that the first two pairs of Gepard they bought costed them someting like 120 million per ship.

    They could see Vietnam turning its eyes on European ships and that would be fair game.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:41 am

    Vietnam will never buy them,

    Well that would solve the problem too...
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:13 pm

    Isos wrote:Stop with Ukraine. Ukraine is not responsible for everything wrong in Russia.

    This price has nothing to do with Ukraine. For such price Vietnam could even ask a nuclear propulsion.

    That's a pathetic move from Russian corrupted shipyards. Vietnam will never buy them, specially that the first two pairs of Gepard they bought costed them someting like 120 million per ship.

    They could see Vietnam turning its eyes on European ships and that would be fair game.

    It is possible that the price in the article was fully wrong, and had no reference to reality...


    Anyway, Vietnam wants a relatively cheap and capable , even if not fully modern, ship in short time. Russia would like to make easy  money and give work to shipyards and suppliers.

    If they have to wait for a new modern alternative based on Russian propulsion they would have to wait more time.... and anyway there are delays even in the delivery of russian diesel power plants for Russian ships (more problems with Zvezda diesels, apparently less issues with Columna engines delivery)...

    Gepard class (and grigorovich) were designed to be powered by powerplants made by Zorya mashproekt in the Ukraine. That company now has much less orders, and has capacity to produce them (in addition it would go to a third state, so even the crazy politicians cannot claim that it will directly reinforce the russian navy) and deliver them in an acceptable timeframe.

    It was just pragmatic... a sort of win win for everyone...

    But possibly the ukrainian politicians prefer to renounce to a good contract, let the company close and lay off the workers, than to help Russia win a lucrative contract...
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    elevonic


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    Post  elevonic Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:35 am

    GarryB wrote:Keep in mind that the Russian Su-35 will be different from the export Su-35.

    The Russian Su-35 is pretty much a test bed for a lot of equipment that will be used on the Russian PAK FA.

    The export Su-35 may have quite a bit of less impressive technology fitted instead.

    For the Vietnamese I suspect they were not impressed by the export model Su-35 because it was likely more expensive and had rather less in common with the aircraft they had already bought which reduces commonality and standardisation.

    Hi @GarryB,
    Do you have any information of this one?

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:29 am

    Vietnam received the third division of missile systems K-300P "Bastion-P"

    https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2259262.html

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm

    Vietnam received the first Yak-130 aircraft


    According to unofficial Vietnamese sources, on November 13, 2021, the first six Yak-130 combat training aircraft, out of 12 ordered for the air defense and air force of the Vietnamese People's Army, were delivered from Russia to the Vietnamese Fukat airfield (Quy Nhon, Binh Dinh province). Yak-130 were built Irkutsk Aviation Plant (IAP) PJSC "Corporation " Irkut "(part of the PJSC" United Aircraft Corporation "State Corporation Rostec) and were taken in Vietnam aboard the An-124-100 transport aircraft. The remaining six Yak-130s for Vietnam are said to be delivered in December.

    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals - Page 5 93230510

    Judging by the photographs, the first Yak-130 aircraft delivered to Vietnam has the tail number "2101". It is known that the aircraft under construction for Vietnam at the IAZ had serial numbers from 12/12/05/101 to 12/12/05/112.

    Recall that in 2019, Vietnam signed a contract for the purchase of 12 Yak-130 combat training aircraft worth more than $ 350 million.Vietnam became the fifth foreign recipient of Yak-130 aircraft (excluding Belarus) - after Algeria (which received 16 aircraft), Bangladesh (16), Myanmar (14) and Laos (four).

    According to unofficial Vietnamese publications,Yak-130 aircraft will enter service with the squadron of the 940th Training Aviation Regiment, which is being restored as part of the Air Defense and Air Force of the VNA, which is formed on the basis of the personnel of the 925th Fukat-based Fighter Aviation Regiment (equipped with Su-27SK / UBK fighters) of the 372nd Division Air Force and based at the Dong Kat airfield of the 910th training aviation regiment of the Officer School of the VNA Air Force Academy (equipped with L-39C training aircraft). Previously, the 940th fighter training regiment existed as part of the Officer School of the VNA Air Force Academy from 1979 to 2014 (from 1987 to 2005 it was called the 920th regiment), based on Fukat and being a retraining regiment for MiG-21 fighters, but in 2010 year was transferred to the 372nd Air Force Division and reorganized into a fighter aviation regiment, receiving Su-27SK / UBK fighters, and in 2014 renamed the 925th Fighter Regiment. It can be assumed that after the revival of the 940th regiment will now again perform tasks of increased flight training and retraining for fighters.

    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals - Page 5 93236210
    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals - Page 5 93239810

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4432518.html
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:19 am

    George1 wrote:

    Vietnam received the first Yak-130 aircraft




    According to unofficial Vietnamese sources, on November 13, 2021, the first six Yak-130 combat training aircraft, out of 12 ordered for the air defense and air force of the Vietnamese People's Army, were delivered from Russia to the Vietnamese Fukat airfield (Quy Nhon, Binh Dinh province). Yak-130 were built Irkutsk Aviation Plant (IAP) PJSC "Corporation " Irkut "(part of the PJSC" United Aircraft Corporation "State Corporation Rostec) and were taken in Vietnam aboard the An-124-100 transport aircraft. The remaining six Yak-130s for Vietnam are said to be delivered in December.

    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals - Page 5 93230510

    Judging by the photographs, the first Yak-130 aircraft delivered to Vietnam has the tail number "2101". It is known that the aircraft under construction for Vietnam at the IAZ had serial numbers from 12/12/05/101 to 12/12/05/112.

    Recall that in 2019, Vietnam signed a contract for the purchase of 12 Yak-130 combat training aircraft worth more than $ 350 million.Vietnam became the fifth foreign recipient of Yak-130 aircraft (excluding Belarus) - after Algeria (which received 16 aircraft), Bangladesh (16), Myanmar (14) and Laos (four).

    According to unofficial Vietnamese publications,Yak-130 aircraft will enter service with the squadron of the 940th Training Aviation Regiment, which is being restored as part of the Air Defense and Air Force of the VNA, which is formed on the basis of the personnel of the 925th Fukat-based Fighter Aviation Regiment (equipped with Su-27SK / UBK fighters) of the 372nd Division Air Force and based at the Dong Kat airfield of the 910th training aviation regiment of the Officer School of the VNA Air Force Academy (equipped with L-39C training aircraft). Previously, the 940th fighter training regiment existed as part of the Officer School of the VNA Air Force Academy from 1979 to 2014 (from 1987 to 2005 it was called the 920th regiment), based on Fukat and being a retraining regiment for MiG-21 fighters, but in 2010 year was transferred to the 372nd Air Force Division and reorganized into a fighter aviation regiment, receiving Su-27SK / UBK fighters, and in 2014 renamed the 925th Fighter Regiment. It can be assumed that after the revival of the 940th regiment will now again perform tasks of increased flight training and retraining for fighters.

    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals - Page 5 93236210
    Russia - Vietnam Military Deals - Page 5 93239810

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4432518.html

    Quite pricey $29m per aircraft. Zambia bought the Chinese L-15 for $15m per aircraft. And if u compare the yak-130 to L-15 the Chinese L-15 is faster by almost double, and price is at what checkmate has been touted to be. I do like the yak-130 but they should make a faster version and a dedicated combat version. Price needs to be competitive. Especially with long term loyal customers like Vietnam. It's maybe why yak-130 hadn't had big export sales ???
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:35 am

    Quite pricey $29m per aircraft. Zambia bought the Chinese L-15 for $15m per aircraft. And if u compare the yak-130 to L-15 the Chinese L-15 is faster by almost double, and price is at what checkmate has been touted to be. I do like the yak-130 but they should make a faster version and a dedicated combat version. Price needs to be competitive. Especially with long term loyal customers like Vietnam. It's maybe why yak-130 hadn't had big export sales ???

    Most sources I've seen gives the unit price at around $15m. $29 seems quite steep but it may include a larger package like service items and weapons. It can even be an "offset" deal where Vietnam can write off debt against the deal for instance. These deals are not always crystal clear.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:27 am

    Interesting so many think being faster is so important... you could of course use more powerful engines but that would massively effect fuel fraction reducing range and endurance... and for what?

    So the trainer can go faster?

    When designing an aircraft it is critical you get the balance right for the jobs you want it to perform, and this is a lead in fighter trainer... dogfights almost never happen at supersonic speeds... because it takes quite a lot of time flying level and straight to get to supersonic speeds and it also requires a lot of fuel to be burned in full AB thrust setting... which greatly reduces your flight range and endurance and the instant you start to manouver you will be going subsonic very soon anyway.

    A zoom climb to altitude and transsonic speed for a long range missile launch makes sense because it massively improves the energy of your missile so it goes further and has more energy for the interception, but how often will a small fighter carry very long range missiles and in this day and age how far away will it be detecting enemy semi stealthy aircraft anyway?

    I would say the Yak-130 with R-73s or R-74s would be about as deadly a close in dog fighter as you could probably get... and Checkmate wont be replacing the Yak-130s.

    Buying Yak-130s now puts them on the customer list, so maybe in 5 or 6 years time they can buy some Checkmates as real fighters with their Yak-130s remaining trainers...

    Regarding the price there is a lot of flexibility there... the new F-35s are only $80 million each is a good example... but they actually still cost 110 million or so when you add the 30 million dollar engine they need to be able to fly them...

    The Unit price can be anything from just the bare aircraft up to the aircraft and a spares and support contract for 10 years included, and also might include simulators and testing equipment and support equipment too.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:20 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Quite pricey $29m per aircraft. Zambia bought the Chinese L-15 for $15m per aircraft. And if u compare the yak-130 to L-15 the Chinese L-15 is faster by almost double, and price is at what checkmate has been touted to be. I do like the yak-130 but they should make a faster version and a dedicated combat version. Price needs to be competitive. Especially with long term loyal customers like Vietnam. It's maybe why yak-130 hadn't had big export sales ???

    Most sources I've seen gives the unit price at around $15m. $29 seems quite steep but it may include a larger package like service items and weapons. It can even be an "offset" deal where Vietnam can write off debt against the deal for instance. These deals are not always crystal clear.

    Training, spare parts, maintenance...

    Price tag for a naked jet is useless. You need to take into account everything for the lifetime period of the plane to really know the cost of the plane.

    Yak-130 is already a light attack combat jet.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:19 pm

    Having a faster engine plays into the hands of poorer nations where they would not just be using it as a trainer, but more in the role of its main fighter. I doubt it would take much to tweak engines to improve speed and performance. As for cost yes seen sources saying $15m but no deal ever is at that price, and yes u can have spare parts and maintenance, but I highly doubt it's almost the cost of another yak-130. I actually really like the design of the yak-130 but feel it's lacking presence on export sales market and a few deals where it's been submitted it hadn't made through. And yes I agree deals are never clear everyone knows that. And comparison to checkmate was price only and NOT comparison types of aircraft I really wish people read comments well.

    There is quite a few products few products Russia doesn't seem to push sales on where it could and boast sales and expand market share.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:45 pm

    Yak-130 is an expensive trainer. Reason why is its on board avionics mimics a lot of advanced jets.  The Chinese jet is simply that, a jet. A poor man's jet trying to be an all in one trainer and fighter. Nothing particularly  wrong per se but the issue is, up against a competent foe and that jet is useless.  The Yak-130 is designed to be preparing pilots to use more advanced planes that would completely destroy that Chinese jet and its pilots long before they even get to see what is coming.  These days, these kind of jets are fairly useless.  If you are doing bombing runs, then jets like Su-25's, A-10's and certain drones are better. If for air combat, plenty of dedicated jets for that that are way better.

    A jet like this just doesn't have much room in real world besides as a way for African nations to give kickbacks to China in a way to say "thanks" for their investments.  And to make sure the Chinese continue to invest.

    I guess in terms of like Syria, these may semi work. Just don't know how well.

    There is a reason why these are dirt cheap. Not saying cheap is bad. But saying that it's probably rather basic.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:25 pm

    Well having a trainer jet that can do some work like hunting drones or droping dumb bombs is better than a jet that can just fly.

    The integration of basic weapons like dumb bombs or IR missiles isn't costly, it only require pylons and basic launching devices on them. No need for battle management system or weapon computers... such weapons are used by the pilot directly.

    Air forces usually have a lot of trainer aircraft, sometimes the same number as the number of real fighter which is good during a war. Number always matter.

    Transforming a jet trainer into a real fighter with a radar, r-77, weapon management system, datalinks and other expensive stuff is stupid.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:29 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Yak-130 is an expensive trainer. Reason why is its on board avionics mimics a lot of advanced jets.  The Chinese jet is simply that, a jet. A poor man's jet trying to be an all in one trainer and fighter. Nothing particularly  wrong per se but the issue is, up against a competent foe and that jet is useless.  The Yak-130 is designed to be preparing pilots to use more advanced planes that would completely destroy that Chinese jet and its pilots long before they even get to see what is coming.  These days, these kind of jets are fairly useless.  If you are doing bombing runs, then jets like Su-25's, A-10's and certain drones are better. If for air combat, plenty of dedicated jets for that that are way better.

    A jet like this just doesn't have much room in real world besides as a way for African nations to give kickbacks to China in a way to say "thanks" for their investments.  And to make sure the Chinese continue to invest.

    I guess in terms of like Syria, these may semi work. Just don't know how well.

    There is a reason why these are dirt cheap. Not saying cheap is bad. But saying that it's probably rather basic.

    L-39 have done fairly well in Syria. And simple light aircraft are never and never will be capable of taking on aircraft such as Su-35 etc that's something everyone knows. I would add if a more fighter focussed version was designed it doesn't need to mimic characteristics of advanced aircraft/trainer, wouldn't take much for Russia to do such. But many countries either can't afford or don't need highly advanced aircraft such as su-35 etc. Hence those countries are looking for light attack aircraft, and I feel the yak-130 is a good design but could be tweaked to what the customer needs, sales are sales and getting a country to buy aircraft effectively keeps them a customer for years if not decades with parts maintenance and weapons, and also could open doors for other deals. Russia pretty much has a equipment for every need and every budget, off the top of my head I think they only they haven't covered is a attack turboprop aircraft like a super tucano, but that market is pretty much already dominated by the tucano. And although Russia has no requirement for such aircraft, doesn't mean they couldn't upgrade a yak-152 into such type of aircraft with not a lot of hassle, just like the yak-130 Russia has the experience and expertise to tweak aircraft without major issues. Russia could be doing better, and could be gaining sales, new customers, bigger deals, if it pushed alittle harder into some markets. and could very well challenge the Chinese venture into arms in Africa.


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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:37 am

    Isos wrote:Well having a trainer jet that can do some work like hunting drones or droping dumb bombs is better than a jet that can just fly.

    The integration of basic weapons like dumb bombs or IR missiles isn't costly, it only require pylons and basic launching devices on them. No need for battle management system or weapon computers... such weapons are used by the pilot directly.

    Air forces usually have a lot of trainer aircraft, sometimes the same number as the number of real fighter which is good during a war. Number always matter.

    Transforming a jet trainer into a real fighter with a radar, r-77, weapon management system, datalinks and other expensive stuff is stupid.

    I was never suggesting equipping expensive stuff into the yak-130 minor tweaks and cheap upgrades would enhance it better for combat, it is at the end of the a light fighter and won't be anything beyond that. Various pods targeting or defensive, and a few missiles and a cheap radar is enough.

    U could even use a yak-130 as a drone command aircraft if u really wanted. Lol.

    I actually think the small size, and agility would make a great little light fighter, I have seen videos of it being used as ground attack in Myanmar.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:59 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Yak-130 is an expensive trainer. Reason why is its on board avionics mimics a lot of advanced jets.  The Chinese jet is simply that, a jet. A poor man's jet trying to be an all in one trainer and fighter. Nothing particularly  wrong per se but the issue is, up against a competent foe and that jet is useless.  The Yak-130 is designed to be preparing pilots to use more advanced planes that would completely destroy that Chinese jet and its pilots long before they even get to see what is coming.  These days, these kind of jets are fairly useless.  If you are doing bombing runs, then jets like Su-25's, A-10's and certain drones are better. If for air combat, plenty of dedicated jets for that that are way better.

    A jet like this just doesn't have much room in real world besides as a way for African nations to give kickbacks to China in a way to say "thanks" for their investments.  And to make sure the Chinese continue to invest.

    I guess in terms of like Syria, these may semi work. Just don't know how well.

    There is a reason why these are dirt cheap. Not saying cheap is bad. But saying that it's probably rather basic.

    L-39 have done fairly well in Syria. And simple light aircraft are never and never will be capable of taking on aircraft such as Su-35 etc that's something everyone knows. I would add if a more fighter focussed version was designed it doesn't need to mimic characteristics of advanced aircraft/trainer, wouldn't take much for Russia to do such. But many countries either can't afford or don't need highly advanced aircraft such as su-35 etc. Hence those countries are looking for light attack aircraft, and I feel the yak-130 is a good design but could be tweaked to what the customer needs, sales are sales and getting a country to buy aircraft effectively keeps them a customer for years if not decades with parts maintenance and weapons, and also could open doors for other deals. Russia pretty much has a equipment for every need and every budget, off the top of my head I think they only they haven't covered is a attack turboprop aircraft like a super tucano, but that market is pretty much already dominated by the tucano. And although Russia has no requirement for such aircraft, doesn't mean they couldn't upgrade a yak-152 into such type of aircraft with not a lot of hassle, just like the yak-130 Russia has the experience and expertise to tweak aircraft without major issues. Russia could be doing better, and could be gaining sales, new customers, bigger deals, if it pushed alittle harder into some markets. and could very well challenge the Chinese venture into arms in Africa.

    If the nation's cannot afford such jets, then they shouldn't be shopping for em. They are better off buying drones which are much cheaper for CAS or strategic strikes, and then save up for a proper jet for air patrol. Or buy basic jet for low tense bombing runs like L-39 which would be cheaper.

    These jets, it just simply Air to ground support, is sufficient. But as a "fighter" of any kind, is a total waste. Guarantee even old Su-27's in Ethiopia would absolutely demolish these planes.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:51 am

    Having a faster engine plays into the hands of poorer nations where they would not just be using it as a trainer, but more in the role of its main fighter. I doubt it would take much to tweak engines to improve speed and performance.

    Yeah, that is a myth created by the makers of LIFT jets (lead in fighter trainers), they say you can use them as light fighters to justify the enormous price, but the reality is that even poor countries like New Zealand with our Air Macchis used Skyhawks as our fighters, because a jet trainer is not a fighter, just like a fighter is not a primary or lead in trainer either.

    As a light attack aircraft high speed would not be relevant, and no one ever criticises the Su-25 for being too slow.

    Use a blind bombing system and a modern targeting pod and the Yak-130 would be an excellent light strike platform from 8-10km altitude with cheap dumb bombs... its speed would be not important. With a couple of R-74s it could defend itself too.

    But a fighter needs a proper self defence avionics suite that you are not going to get for less than 10 million dollars per aircraft, and a modern AESA radar is probably going to cost you the same... all of a sudden just to make it a competitive light fighter its price has dramatically increased to the point where a MiG-29M would actually be cheaper, faster and more capable... and probably cheaper to operate too.

    As for cost yes seen sources saying $15m but no deal ever is at that price, and yes u can have spare parts and maintenance, but I highly doubt it's almost the cost of another yak-130

    A normal rule of thumb for a modern fighter is to double its purchase price to allow for support and maintenance for about 10 years of service.

    If we look at what you said:

    I do like the yak-130 but they should make a faster version and a dedicated combat version.

    A dedicated light fighter version would no longer be a LIFT, and would likely not be as good a light fighter as the Checkmate... but would cost money to develop and would likely not be as cheap to operate than the Checkmate... the Yak-130 is supposed to be rather expensive per hour to operate... something like 12K or something which is more expensive than a MiG-29K/M/35 is supposed to be....

    A dedicated light fighter will not be any cheaper to operate...

    Yak-130 is an expensive trainer. Reason why is its on board avionics mimics a lot of advanced jets.

    You can apparently dial the flight performance of the aircraft to suit the type of training you are doing, so it is rather sophisticated...

    The Yak-130 is designed to be preparing pilots to use more advanced planes that would completely destroy that Chinese jet and its pilots long before they even get to see what is coming. These days, these kind of jets are fairly useless. If you are doing bombing runs, then jets like Su-25's, A-10's and certain drones are better. If for air combat, plenty of dedicated jets for that that are way better.

    With the added cost of a self defence avionics suite, new more powerful engines and a new AESA radar and it is going to cost more than a MiG-29M... both to buy and also operational costs per flight hour and the MiG-29M is just going to be a more capable fighter.

    Well having a trainer jet that can do some work like hunting drones or droping dumb bombs is better than a jet that can just fly.

    A light trainer jet would be useless against most drones because the drones would have too low a RCS for them to find them easily... in fact most of the time another drone would be a better solution to drones, or the Mi-28NM attack helo with modern Thermals and MMW radar sensors and air burst 30mm cannon shells.

    There has been a lot of hype about using light jet trainers as surrogate fighters but has anyone actually done that?

    The MiG-21 was popular because it was light and cheap and fast and was widely used as a light fighter... the F-5 was developed from the jet trainer T-38 and is about the only example of a light jet fighter that is also a jet trainer.

    In desperation they might use trainers for certain roles like they used obsolete bombers as transport and cargo roles during WWII... but really the Yak-130 is a machine to teach Russian pilots to fly Su-35s, Su-57s, and MiG-35s and soon Checkmates, as well as transport planes and Su-34s etc etc.

    Russia is very new to the jet fighter trainer market... for the entire cold war they didn't make their own... they bought foreign designs with foreign engines.

    The Yak-130 was chosen because of its payload capacity and its potential ability to be used as a light fighter... on reflection... the cheaper lighter MiG AT would have been a much better selection, because it was cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate and would have gotten the job done just as well, but I suspect they wanted to keep the Yak design bureau functioning and alive... but these days I would think a revival of the MiG-AT would be a good thing domestically and for export.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:32 am


    A light trainer jet would be useless against most drones because the drones would have too low a RCS for them to find them easily... in fact most of the time another drone would be a better solution to drones, or the Mi-28NM attack helo with modern Thermals and MMW radar sensors and air burst 30mm cannon shells.

    And how the mi-28 detects them if they have a very small rcs ?

    Yak-130 can be guided from the ground.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:26 am

    @garryb Ur comment "As a light attack aircraft high speed would not be relevant, and no one ever criticises the Su-25 for being too slow."

    Is irrelevant, yak-130 or a light strike is nothing like the Su-25, the su-25 was designed for that speed due to its CAS role, and light strike or yak-130 as has already been debate years ago is not designed for the same role so therefore a comparison is irrelevant. The su-25 carries more ammo, and has armour.

    When I mentioned the yak-130 to be faster u missed the part where I said slightly faster, am not saying it should be on par with Su-35 or a mig-29m or have aesa radar. I actually said a cheap radar or could work with more sophisticated jets which could relay information. There is a growing market for light strike aircraft you only have to look at the amount of light aircraft on market in the last decade. And Russia tweaking a good platform like the yak-130 and improving it slightly and removing anything unnecessary light Various training systems for various aircraft, they could compete in the light strike market, not everyone needs mig-29m upwards Or can afford it missed sales opportunities and long term maintenance contracts as well as other deals that could arise from sales. Belarus fitted it's Talisman system to there yak-130 and it doesn't cost $10m. It's not uncommon to tailor equipment to customer needs. A light strike isn't designed to take on end fighters, but rather take on other light fighters, cargo, helis, and drones if provided with right info, as well as light ground strike. For the record L-39 are no longer for sale new, and most in service ones are nearing the end of their life, L-39NG and other light strike aircraft have joined the market, while Russia hadn't entered anything in that market, and what I was suggesting wouldn't take much time or money to tweak the yak-130 into something similar. Another product on offer to that market area. And lastly if Russia can make the checkmate as cheap as they say they can then nothing stopping them making a cheaper light strike for that market area. You prettyuch have south and central America, whole of Africa, some parts of Asia, and possibly central Asia, as markets for such an aircraft, even Iraq bought light strike aircraft not so long ago. And as I said if you can get into selling a country something like this u can entice them with other deals for vehicles, small arms, ATGW, Helis, etc and maintenance, parts, and missiles sales for years to come. You also deny USA etc from getting such deals. Just look at the super tucano it pretty much dominates the armed turbo prop market because it doesn't really have any real competition. And with russian experience and expertise along with existing systems and weapons would find this a walk in the park and would pick up sales.

    I never once stated that this would be a replacement for more advanced aircraft. And there would of course be a limit to the level of upgrades to keep the price competitive, but at the end of the day it's up to the customer what it wants. Qatar paid silly money for F-15, initially paid $293m ($21.1billion deal) each in a deal for 72 aircraft this included weapons, equipment and training, and then placed a further order for 36 F-15 each costing $333m each ($12 billion deal) So goes to show that countries dumb enough with money are happy to pay over the odds for equipment.
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    Post  Isos Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:49 am

    Just saw about yak-130 engines and realized that it is also used in the L-15 chinese trainer jet.

    It has afterburning capabilities. It's just russians that don't use it.
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    Post  Broski Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:04 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Qatar paid silly money for F-15, initially paid $293m ($21.1billion deal) each in a deal for 72 aircraft this included weapons, equipment and training, and then placed a further order for 36 F-15 each costing $333m each ($12 billion deal) So goes to show that countries dumb enough with money are happy to pay over the odds for equipment.
    Qatar isn't stupid, what they paid for is the F-15 and a bribe to the empire all wrapped up in one deal. it's protection money.

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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:11 am

    Broski wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Qatar paid silly money for F-15, initially paid $293m ($21.1billion deal) each in a deal for 72 aircraft this included weapons, equipment and training, and then placed a further order for 36 F-15 each costing $333m each ($12 billion deal) So goes to show that countries dumb enough with money are happy to pay over the odds for equipment.
    Qatar isn't stupid, what they paid for is the F-15 and a bribe to the empire all wrapped up in one deal. it's protection money.

    India, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc all buy from US as protection money. The US goods aren't worth half the amount they charge.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:52 am


    And how the mi-28 detects them if they have a very small rcs ?

    Mi-28NM has MMW radar and CM wave radar and brand new thermal optics designed for targeting LMURS and other weapons at targets at more than 30km... its performance against small drones should be pretty good out to 7-10km or so... plus it can receive information from ground stations too... it is supposed to work with ground forces where they pick out targets and use the helicopters view of the battlefield to help direct the helicopter to threats and targets.

    Is irrelevant, yak-130 or a light strike is nothing like the Su-25, the su-25 was designed for that speed due to its CAS role, and light strike or yak-130 as has already been debate years ago is not designed for the same role so therefore a comparison is irrelevant. The su-25 carries more ammo, and has armour.

    Not that irrelevant... they tested Yak-130s with standoff weapons in the interests of developing a light cheap replacement for CAS aircraft like the Su-25... it turned out to be too fragile and too expensive because those standoff weapons are not as cheap as directly delivered dumb bombs and rockets which the Su-25 normally operates.

    The value of the more expensive Su-25SM3 is that while it has better equipment on board it is optimised to allow precision delivery of cheap dumb weapons which makes it cheap to operate. Self defence system improvements were also part of the upgrade too.

    When I mentioned the yak-130 to be faster u missed the part where I said slightly faster, am not saying it should be on par with Su-35 or a mig-29m or have aesa radar. I actually said a cheap radar or could work with more sophisticated jets which could relay information.

    Not really sure how slightly faster would make any difference to its performance in light attack and light defending fighter roles... the best way to get extra speed would be to fit after burning versions of the engines they already use, but that will just reduce flight range... it wont make them better training aircraft.

    There is a growing market for light strike aircraft you only have to look at the amount of light aircraft on market in the last decade.

    I agree, but I would suggest that the Yak-130 is too expensive for that role and it would probably make more sense to look at the Yak-152 with the new engine being used by the LMS-901 or the LMS-901 itself or the SR-10 for such a role... the Yak-130 has a sophisticated digital fly by wire system to enable it to replicate the flight performance of a range of aircraft.... something a light jet fighter would not need.

    And Russia tweaking a good platform like the yak-130 and improving it slightly and removing anything unnecessary light Various training systems for various aircraft, they could compete in the light strike market, not everyone needs mig-29m upwards

    But that is the core of the problem... a MiG-29M is probably only an extra 10 million per airframe to buy and is probably cheaper to fly while offering vastly superior performance in fighter and light strike roles...

    A light strike isn't designed to take on end fighters, but rather take on other light fighters, cargo, helis, and drones if provided with right info, as well as light ground strike.

    Which makes it a very low priority for Russia because HATO is hardly going to send low end fighters that they could deal with. Maybe using them against incoming cruise missiles perhaps with twin rail mounts for old R-60MKs would be effective for chasing down cruise missile threats but the coordination of such a battle would be very complex to make sure you chased down different targets and that you spread out and got them all rather than let some through.

    [quote[L-39NG and other light strike aircraft have joined the market, while Russia hadn't entered anything in that market, and what I was suggesting wouldn't take much time or money to tweak the yak-130 into something similar.[/quote]

    The core problem there is that the market is full of light trainers, and the Yak-130 is at the more expensive end of the range to start with.

    In all honesty with the Checkmate coming soon, if they can sell them for 30 million and their operating costs are below 5K per hour, I really don't see a point in developing something else to fill that gap.

    Having said that if you look at the MiG model of their single engined 5th gen light fighter bomber... it looks very LIFT like and could potentially be very cheap to buy and operate.. Its performance might not be as good as Checkmate but a 3,000km range and 7 ton payload sounds excessive to me anyway for a light fighter...

    Making it smaller and lighter and cheaper makes more sense.

    And lastly if Russia can make the checkmate as cheap as they say they can then nothing stopping them making a cheaper light strike for that market area. You prettyuch have south and central America, whole of Africa, some parts of Asia, and possibly central Asia, as markets for such an aircraft, even Iraq bought light strike aircraft not so long ago.

    I am not sure they could make the Yak-130 cheaper to operate... the Su-75 is not a Flanker... it is half a Su-57 slightly modified to make it simpler and lighter... which makes sense because most of the work is already done.

    It is like making the Su-34 based on the Su-27... the basics are solid but modify for the purpose to get a custom designed result for less total outlay.

    And as I said if you can get into selling a country something like this u can entice them with other deals for vehicles, small arms, ATGW, Helis, etc and maintenance, parts, and missiles sales for years to come. You also deny USA etc from getting such deals.

    The US will fight tooth an nail and pull all sorts of underhanded crap to prevent Russia moving into the central and south american market, and there are now other competitors too.

    When the Yak-130 was shown first they had a big chart showing all the different variants from EW versions, ground attack, light fighter bomber, even drone models... and we have seen none of them so far... I think they should just focus on producing them for training for Russia and see if they can get some export sales of the trainer first before starting wasting time and money on a potential variant like a light fighter bomber.

    Sorry... don't mean to be rude, but for as long as Lead in Fighter Trainers have started to become sophisticated and therefore also expensive, the makers have claimed they could be used as light fighter bombers... and honestly the only LIFT type I have seen achieve that was the American T-38 Talon/F-5 light fighter... and lets face it... most of the F-5 customers probably actually wanted F-16s instead but were too early or not important enough/high up the pecking order to get them. Venezuela gets F-16s to protect US oil that happens to be on their territory. Argentina can have A-4s for their carrier, and in lieu of not being allowed F-16s got Mirages instead.

    Just look at the super tucano it pretty much dominates the armed turbo prop market because it doesn't really have any real competition. And with russian experience and expertise along with existing systems and weapons would find this a walk in the park and would pick up sales.

    It does because it is actually cheap to buy and operate, which I don't think the Yak-130 is. AFAIK the Yak-130 does not have ABs to keep the operational costs down and reduce weight and simplify maintenance.

    I never once stated that this would be a replacement for more advanced aircraft.

    Agreed... never meant to imply that you did, and on the face of it it sounds like a good idea.... it is often part of the sales pitch to poorer countries...

    Here in New Zealand we got rid of our Skyhawks because we realised how much they cost to operate and how ineffective they would be against any force that could get down here to fight us. We usually get involved in peace keeping missions only rather than peace making missions, so in effect our two main primary uses for our Skyhawks was at airshows here and in Australia, and to pretend to the Australian Navy and the New Zealand Navy that they are low flying sub sonic anti ship missiles so the ships can practise being under attack with no actual danger.

    At a time when the National party were talking about trading our Skyhawks for F-16s, our Labour government retired out skyhawks and our air macchis...

    If we actually did need light fighters for anything then the Italian version of the Yak-130 could have been a very interesting solution as both a trainer and a light fighter, but we don't need any sort of fighters all the way down here.

    Qatar paid silly money for F-15, initially paid $293m ($21.1billion deal) each in a deal for 72 aircraft this included weapons, equipment and training, and then placed a further order for 36 F-15 each costing $333m each ($12 billion deal) So goes to show that countries dumb enough with money are happy to pay over the odds for equipment.

    A very rich country buying protection from the US... they can now murder anyone they please... even in their embassies abroad... and the western media will not object... unless those orders are cancelled.

    I hear what you are saying... not everyone needs state of the art fighters, and even fewer can actually afford 120 million plus per fighter that western aircraft are going for these days, which makes 30 million per LIFT actually look rather cheap... but that is about the price of a MiG-29M for Russia with a MiG-35 being another 10 million... but the thing is that the operating figures I have seen put the old MiG-29 operating costs at about 10-11 thousand dollars per flight hour and the MiG-29SMT upgrade being 40% cheaper, which would be 6-7K per hour and the MiG-29M/KR/35 even cheaper still... while I believe the costs for the Yak-130 are something like 8-9K per hour... which is not cheap at all and it is why they are talking about SR-10s and LMS-901s and even putting the MiG-AT into production...

    I am not saying the idea is bad but I think you have picked the wrong base aircraft.

    It has afterburning capabilities. It's just russians that don't use it.

    The Yak-130 uses the Salut AI-222-25 engine which was formerly made by Motor Sich, in the non AB version with 2.5 ton thrust.

    There are plans for an AL-55 Russian engine for trainers, light fighters and drones with a 3 ton thrust and for a later model with a thrust of 5 tons, presumably both with AB, but the AL-55 available now the thrust is 1.75 ton thrust and was to be used in the MiG-AT and SR-10.

    The irony is that the Yak-130 was picked because it had better potential to be used as a light fighter despite its Ukrainian engine, while the MiG AT probably would have been cheaper and a better trainer that was more affordable.

    Hind sight is 20/20.

    Interesting Saturn catalog in English:

    http://www.russia-algeria.ru/3/Saturn_english_2010.pdf

    (right click and choose save as a file... it is a pdf document).

    Catalogue from 2010 in English from Saturn.

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