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    Immigration implications on Russian society

    caveat emptor
    caveat emptor


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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  caveat emptor Sat Jun 29, 2024 9:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Well, don't worry. It seems the authorities more or less all agree the immigration system is needing rework and a lot of these people are not gonna get in so easily anymore
    Hell, maybe more deportations.

    Automation is needed, not cheap labor of low IQ cousin marrying, religious zealots.

    You have few powerful circles in the country that are pro or against immigration. Bastrykin is one of the loudest government people that are for tougher rules ad laws for immigration, which is logical as he has first hand information of their involvement in crimes.
    Most business circles are for no restrictions for self-explanatory reasons. Duma is mostly divided as is government. Anti immigration sentiment is also pronounced with more religious and conservative part of the society and ROC. Konstantin Malofeev would be ideal example of this position.
    Situation can be still controlled if authorities do something fast. Otherwise another major terror attack and people will start to ask for heads on the platter.
    flamming_python
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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:46 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:What is important is to do something differently from the soviets. But at this point if Russia has to manage central Asian immigrants it would be also not wrong to think about retaking the land as well.


    Of course that means that Russian language and russian culture should be encouraged also in the non ethnic Russian areas (but not the opposite), without however destroying the local cultures there.

    What I mean is that in Daghestan (or other regions with majority of non ethnic Russians) and in the new areas (i.e. south Kazakhstan regions, Uzbekistan, regions Tajikistan etc) people should grow up with both russian and local culture and respect both, but if they want to find a job in Voronezh (just to make an example) or Sankt Petersburg, they need first to respect russian culture there and not create ethnic ghettos there.

    As far as the consequences, one of the possibility is do not allow completely unrestricted movement of people between the various oblasts and republics except for holidays or short trips, but link change of residence with having a new job there already (and allow 3 months tolerance for job seekers).

    Furthermore unemployment benefits should be paid only in the region of residence and original registration and should require at least 5-years of previous tax contribution in the country and at least 2 in that specific region/oblast/republic.

    Basically the citizenship could be tied to the oblast/republic of origin and changes should be allowed only if work opportunities are available or if the person has the means to sustain himself or herself.

    And in case of problems in the new regions, I believe it should be made possible for that region/oblast/ republic to disallow residency for a particular individual, which also be considered persona non grata and banned from it.

    Furthermore in case of radicalisation/ terrorism or acts against the state it should be possible to revoke citizenship and exile the person after they have spent the time in jail. For that some agreements with third countries (i.e. Afghanistan or central African countries) to allow those persons to make themselves a new life (or  go to the west from there, if they want and they are allowed to).

    As far as the immediate issue, I totally agree on mandating health insurance for the immigrants.
    This could be paid by the hiring firm as an example, which could organise recruitment and initial training directly in the original country.
    As an example if there is a need of construction workers in Volgograd (and there are not enough russian workers for it), a Russian spin off could be opened in Tajikistan to recruit local workers, filter those who can be sent immediately and provide basic training (job specific and on russian language and cultural differences) for the ones that could be ready after a bit, and then provide them with a time limited specific working visa (which time is not counted for the purpose of naturalisation). After the job is finished send them back and possibly help them find a job in their own country.

    Still, before allowing so many immigrants I would first make sure that there are no russian citizens that could do the same jobs. Furthermore I would mandate that the immigrants need to be paid the same amount as russian citizen plus a foreign worker tax should be paid to the state.

    Basically hiring a foreign worker should cost more than hiring a russian citizen.

    Finally I would also check among the unemployed if they want to be retrained/ or involved in such jobs.

    I agree with most of your proposals, with some caveats granted, but we'll be getting into details that we don't really know ourselves in that case

    As for ethnic ghettos, this is a tougher question. Because it is human nature, to some extent.
    But if you want to promote integration, intermarriage and assimilation, then there are ways to do it to. But they are exactly related to improving conditions for migrants, and coming to reasonable compromises with local residents, not allowing xenophobia to get out of control, and creating affordable housing too, that immigrants can afford if they do decide to settle. That's the material factors in any case, there are ideological and social ones too, including some that you've touched on.

    But it's important to note that ethnic ghettos will even quicker come about from a poor and ostracized immigrant population that then buys out the oldest and cheapest housing in the most dilapidated area of the city and creates support networks between themselves to provide all these services for one another that the government refuses them.

    Actually, there is a certain proportion of Central Asian migration to Russia, that comes about from foreign students who decide to stay in Russia after finishing studies. As most foreign students in Russia are from Central Asia, or at least half of them. And these young people are so well integrated by the end of the process, that no-one even recognizes them as migrants. They come to Russia at a young age, get a higher education in the Russian language, make Russian friends, and then can legally find work and residence after that.
    Or even if they study in their own capitals at a branch of one of the Russian universities, and then come to Russia afterwards. You won't differentiate them much from someone born in Russia.
    But the problem of course is that Russia still needs unskilled foreign labour in various fields, and that many people don't can't afford higher education in Central Asia or are not interested in it.
    PhSt
    PhSt


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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  PhSt Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:58 pm

    I sincerely hope Russia doesn't go down this way when it comes to managing its immigrant population (and soon to be minority local population after Russia takes back its rightful historical territories)

    Whatever minority culture, language, name, custom, religion, etc, that is there in Russia, these will need to be slowly eradicated until all population in Russia only follow Russian culture, language, religion, and way of life.

    kvs
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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  kvs Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:17 pm

    Russia is an assembly of "nations" and not a melting pot. But the western melting pot rot is being pushed. So you have migrants who self-segregate in cities and bring with
    them all the usual crime. Russia needs to tightly control migration. It should prevent business owners from importing cheap labour. As I posted above, there should be
    temporary worker permits that allow foreigners to work in Russia, but they should not be patriated. The US is kind of lucky that it can import Hispanics. U-rope and Russia
    do not have such populations being brought in. This is not a bigoted valuation, it is an empirical observation of particular groups. Some groups need to stay home since that
    fits much better with their mind-frame. This is not "wrong". It is important for imperial meddling to stop messing up the countries of these people.

    I will take the Middle East as an example, it was evolving into a more secular mode until Cold War games ignited jihadi extremism so that now it has regressed to some state
    that it never really experienced in its history. It may take centuries to go back to its original path.

    sepheronx, par far and Broski like this post

    Walther von Oldenburg
    Walther von Oldenburg


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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:25 pm

    Countries like Vietnam or North Korea are excellent places to get migrants from. I guess so is India and other Southeast Asian countries (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Burma)
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:30 pm

    kvs wrote:Russia is an assembly of "nations" and not a melting pot.  But the western melting pot rot is being pushed.   So you have migrants who self-segregate in cities and bring with
    them all the usual crime.   Russia needs to tightly control migration.   It should prevent business owners from importing cheap labour.   As I posted above, there should be
    temporary worker permits that allow foreigners to work in Russia, but they should not be patriated.   The US is kind of lucky that it can import Hispanics.   U-rope and Russia
    do not have such populations being brought in.   This is not a bigoted valuation, it is an empirical observation of particular groups.  Some groups need to stay home since that
    fits much better with their mind-frame.   This is not "wrong".   It is important for imperial meddling to stop messing up the countries of these people.  

    I will take the Middle East as an example, it was evolving into a more secular mode until Cold War games ignited jihadi extremism so that now it has regressed to some state
    that it never really experienced in its history.   It may take centuries to go back to its original path.      

    Funny you should say that because I just read on one of the Russian telegram channel's that a few companies already lost some kind of benefits because they were hiring only migrants and artificially lowering wages. So the authorities are actually hitting at private companies whom are flooding Russia with migrants.

    GarryB, kvs, Rodion_Romanovic and Broski like this post

    lyle6
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    Immigration implications on Russian society - Page 8 Empty Re: Immigration implications on Russian society

    Post  lyle6 Sun Jul 07, 2024 12:02 pm

    Hiring illegals is just stealing from society with extra steps. The state should throw the books the the perpetrators like it does whenever tax cheats get in the way of its money.

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