TR1 wrote:I've seen Eurocopter Tiger firing its gun in similar situation, it was also very "innacurate", I think it is by intention. You want some spread when firing at groups of personnel.
...Or it could be poor engineering, similar to how the Apache's windows wasn't designed to withstand 7.62x39mm AK rounds. Looking at the original video from Afghanistan, it seems like 66% of 30mm cannon fire was wasted. A quick remedy could be to have the 30mm cannon electronically fire in 3-5 round bursts if something of that nature isn't there already, with the hope of keeping the 30mm bursts in a relatively tight pattern.
That is not only the fault of the M230, but how the Operater shoots. Like a cowboy, just keep trigger squeezed instead of short bursts. It's not like they would run away when there is nothing to hide for several hundred meters around them. They are poorly trained or poorly disciplined and i assume both, but less discipline as lack of training.
Werewolf wrote:That is not only the fault of the M230, but how the Operater shoots. Like a cowboy, just keep trigger squeezed instead of short bursts. It's not like they would run away when there is nothing to hide for several hundred meters around them. They are poorly trained or poorly disciplined and i assume both, but less discipline as lack of training.
Maybe so, however looking at the original Afghan footage ^^^ there's points where the rounds fly far away from to where the crosshairs point at, like around at "1:10" a few rounds fly to the far upper left corner of the screen, now I know wind and helicopter gyration plays a part in that but it seems more like there's some gun stabilization problems. Another point is around "1:21" where the cross hairs points the round flies significantly to the right of the crosshairs; I'm no expert and I might be wrong about the stability and like I mentioned wind and helicopter movement will be a factor but the stability of the gun at the very least seems like the main culprit here.
What i think is that this "modernisation" of the M230 to double the "accuracy" of the AWS was never put into service like one article said so.
Because even when you count distance,wind and offbore shooting into account it should never have such awfull accuracy. From the size of the men in the video and the rounds which the farest rounds lay down to left and right far away from the crossair. It should be at least be 30.0m CEP. This is literally the most inaccurate weapon system ever put onto an attack helicopter.
I've seen videos of other guns on attack helicopters even the worst video of Tigers in afghanistan at 1.8km have about 18-20m CEP in offbore.
Now imagine an Apache with the standard 300-500 rounds like any other Attack helicopter has, he would run out of ammo before he could hit half of his targets.
I havent seen many videos of the GSh-30-2 firing, its used by both the Mi24VP and Su25. The gun itself is crazy, the machines that use it are even crazier
Akula971 wrote:I havent seen many videos of the GSh-30-2 firing, its used by both the Mi24VP and Su25. The gun itself is crazy, the machines that use it are even crazier
Fires at around the 1:00 minute mark.
Mi-24VP and VM have both GSh-23-2L only P/PM have GSh-30-2K.
This Hind in the video was one of the early steps in the Hind evolution (Mi-24PK-2) to the current Mi-35M (domestic designation Mi-24VM2).
Just realized what a blunder I made, i was referring to the 9A623 GSh-30-2. Took me a minute to realize where i was wrong. Yes the P versions have the GSh-30-2. Previous versions had the GSh-23-2 (movable) and even before that they had the Yak-B 12.7mm (movable). I remember one version had a 4 barrel 23mm cannon too. As much as i love the Mi 24, i really get confused when it comes to its variants. Its like the "Been there, done that" version of Helicopters.
Funnily enough, a Naval version was also proposed for the Mi 24, it was called the Mi 24M or izdeliye 247. It never went into production, was a competitor of the Ka 29TB.
How does one distinguish the 2L from the 2K version of the GSh-23-2? I know that the Mig 21 uses the 2L.
I remember one version had a 4 barrel 23mm cannon too.
I've never seen any Mi-24 with GSh 23-6.
How does one distinguish the 2L from the 2K version of the GSh-23-2? I know that the Mig 21 uses the 2L.
GSh-23-2 GSh-23-2L
The 2L has muzzle break to reduce the recoil the the barrel is slightly longer barrel 1537mm compared with 1387mm for normal version.
It is more or less the same on GSh-30-2K The normal GSh-30-2 made lot of trouble first time they installed it, the muzzle flash created such high vibrations that it produced cracks in canopy and fuselage due the massive 60 kN recoil in high rpm. The solution to that was cones like on muscquetts to direct the muzzle flash forward so the fuselage would not be affected and put on extense stress. The barrel also had to be lengthend to further get away the muzzle flash from the cockpit which was and still is blinding the WSO but at acceptable levels.
GSh-30-2 (1500mm barrel length)
GSh-30-2K (2400mm barrel length) Most powerful autocannon mounted on helicopter more powerful than Su-25 and really close to A-10 (30x173mm)
Akula971 wrote:Went all the way to find the source on it, had to go through a lot of pages but found it. Some guy made a list of all the Mi 24 Variants.
So apparently its the 12.7 mm four barrel Yak-B machine gun, not the GSh-23-6. Couldnt be the GSh-23-6 because its six barreled.
I cant imagine something like that on a Helicopter, its used by the Su 24 and Mig 31. Or its heavier hitting version, the GSh-30-6 either.
Something like that on a chopper ? Lord have mercy
EDIT: Thanks for the info on the L and K versions.
I just thought about GSh-23-6 because you mentioned a 23mm gatling.
Well you could say good bye to your own chopper, that would definitley rip it apart and kill anything friendly in the process.
My bad, its been a while since I discussed Mi 24s, or choppers for that matter.
That gun was there on the Mig 27. From what I have read, it destroys EVERYTHING in a 200m radius once it opens fire. And because of the recoil it was placed in a rather weird position of the fuselage or your airframe would disintegrate mid combat.
I cant link any external websites yet but this is the link to a liveleak video of the GSh-30-6 firing
The only Russian/Soviet four barrel gatlings are 7.62mm and 12.7mm calibre.
Regarding the 30mm gatling on the MiG-27 it is important to keep in mind it has a two fin shield on either side of the muzzle to reduce the muzzle flash... on a weapon about 8 metres back from the nose of the aircraft... it is a very powerful weapon.
Found an interesting patent concept of Helicopter mothership deploying Helicopter drones commanding it and targeting from safe distance targets and distributing it to Attack Helicopters.
Russian 4 barrels are the YakB 12.7mm and GSh-7.62
Dont want to go off topic but the Mig 27 is a nice ground attack aircraft.
Nice footage plus a lot of gun action.
Coming back the helicopters, I think the Ka-29TB is a really nice platform. Its like the Mi 24 of the seas. GSh-7.62, 30mm autocannon, 8 x Shturms or 4 hardpoints.
I think 2A42, with 2 S 8 rockets and 2 Shturm launchers on either sides makes a great coastal assault loadout .
The new Ka 52K Katran combined with the Ka-29TB is a promising combination. I dont know what will happen to the Mistrals. But Russia should make a dedicated helicopter carrier for its marines, it will be a great weapon for coastal assault forces.
There is very little information on the Ka-29TB. I dont even know how many men it can transport at once.
Werewolf wrote:Found an interesting patent concept of Helicopter mothership deploying Helicopter drones commanding it and targeting from safe distance targets and distributing it to Attack Helicopters.
Good find Werewolf. If RuAF can replicate the same design concept say from a Tu-160 or Tu 22 it would really be great.
In that case a Tu 160 or Tu 122 can deploy a swarm of drones from stand off range to attack enemy mechanized units or carrier groups.
Akula971 wrote:Nice footage plus a lot of gun action.
Coming back the helicopters, I think the Ka-29TB is a really nice platform. Its like the Mi 24 of the seas. GSh-7.62, 30mm autocannon, 8 x Shturms or 4 hardpoints.
I think 2A42, with 2 S 8 rockets and 2 Shturm launchers on either sides makes a great coastal assault loadout .
The new Ka 52K Katran combined with the Ka-29TB is a promising combination. I dont know what will happen to the Mistrals. But Russia should make a dedicated helicopter carrier for its marines, it will be a great weapon for coastal assault forces.
There is very little information on the Ka-29TB. I dont even know how many men it can transport at once.
Nice footage.
Yes i do like the Ka-29 very much proofed to be very reliable and versitile with its predecessors. I don't know if you should equip it wiht 2A42, but it already has UPK-23-250 gun pods (23x115mm and 250 rounds) the 30x165 would have roughly 15kN more recoil not really good for almost the same lethality of the round.
The Ka-29/TB can fit 16 soldiers.
Here you have Ka-31 it already has more equipment installed than Mi-28N or Ka-52. Like it seems Kamov is still more focused on its Naval Kamov fleet and projects than on its Ka-52 at least with the space of Vitebsk and sensor suite.
DIRCM L-370, MAWS L-136, SAP jammers, Radar E-801M Oko and L-150 Pastel RWR sensors, don't see L-140 LWR.
jhelb wrote:
Werewolf wrote:Found an interesting patent concept of Helicopter mothership deploying Helicopter drones commanding it and targeting from safe distance targets and distributing it to Attack Helicopters.
Good find Werewolf. If RuAF can replicate the same design concept say from a Tu-160 or Tu 22 it would really be great.
In that case a Tu 160 or Tu 122 can deploy a swarm of drones from stand off range to attack enemy mechanized units or carrier groups.
I think to design airdeployable drones for a jet is much harder task with to me unknown impact if it is actually feasable. The point here is, that the drones deployed by a helicopter is easy, it can hover and let the drone scout ahead, on a jet like Tu-160 that is impossible and i kind of doubt that it can fit in it drones small enough with enough payload,electronics and still be faster than Tu-160 so it could enter enemy airspace before the mothergoose could do. Probably it is possible but the costs for such drones must be immense, easier to equip it with more cruise missiles.
I like the Zala disposable drone concept in the large pods that fit under standard wing pylons and intended to be carried by Ka-52s.
One large pod appears to carry 5-6 drones which are released in mid flight and look like those flat flying wing hand launched drones the Russian Army seems to be using at the moment.
The pictures shown here however seem to show the much larger Ka-37 drone helos which are large enough to probably have the capacity to fly back to friendly lines and not require recovery by the launch aircraft.
I rather suspect they would be too big and also therefore too expensive to be disposable.
The launch platform is clearly the Ka-226T which would be a rather valuable platform for such work as it likely could carry a rather large number of small and tiny UAVs for a range of missions... tiny UAVs are difficult to spot and deal with... their main problem is that they lack range for long range work... having a carrier platform like a helo with a modular rear pod you could easily deploy large numbers while at the same time have a few crewmen on board so that they UAVs themselves could be made more capable and more expensive with better view distances and thermal cameras and other expensive components because they could simply be landed on the ground with the Ka-226T able to land nearby to recover them.
The new Ka 52K Katran combined with the Ka-29TB is a promising combination. I dont know what will happen to the Mistrals. But Russia should make a dedicated helicopter carrier for its marines, it will be a great weapon for coastal assault forces.
The Mistral would be ideal as the 200 bed hospital alone plus all those helicopters are ideal for disaster relief and for military operations... it would even make a useful command vessel for a small naval group.
There is very little information on the Ka-29TB. I dont even know how many men it can transport at once.
According to the advertising it says up to 16 troops with their side arms, but I would say 6-8 in full body armour and kit. The more you carry the longer the helo has to sit on the ground vulnerable... that is why the Mi-8/-17 is preferred over the Hind for troop transport... with side and rear doors it is faster to get out of the Hips so you spend less time on the ground.
Hind would be good for small parties however... 2-6 men.
In that case a Tu 160 or Tu 122 can deploy a swarm of drones from stand off range to attack enemy mechanized units or carrier groups.
Not needed... remember this helo concept is an Army Aviation thing so they don't need to ask for bigger longer ranged Air Force drones. there is likely a limit on how big Army Aviation drones can be before they fall under the control of the air force so this is a way to extend the range and speed of smaller slower drones and also to make them recoverable in the field so they don't end up having to be expendible... which would either make them too expensive to actually use, or result in a reducing in costs which makes them cheaper but also much less effective to save costs.
Yes i do like the Ka-29 very much proofed to be very reliable and versitile with its predecessors. I don't know if you should equip it wiht 2A42, but it already has UPK-23-250 gun pods (23x115mm and 250 rounds) the 30x165 would have roughly 15kN more recoil not really good for almost the same lethality of the round.
There was a version shown at an air show with a 30mm cannon on the left hand side near the left pylon inner, presumably with the ammo inside the cabin. It has been assumed by some to be standard equipment and the 4 barrel 7.62mm gun under the nose fairing as being there as well.
Personally I don't know.
Here you have Ka-31 it already has more equipment installed than Mi-28N or Ka-52. Like it seems Kamov is still more focused on its Naval Kamov fleet and projects than on its Ka-52 at least with the space of Vitebsk and sensor suite.
The Russian Army has reportedly ordered some Ka-31s for battlefield radar/command/control use... based on the colour that helo is painted I would suggest that might be an Army model... though I supposed it could easily be a naval model intended to be used on land too.
I spent a lot of time wondering where the mainguns on the Ka 29TB were. In the videos, it shows quite a lot of things about the helicopter. Cockpit view of it launching rockets, another Ka dropping either Sonar bouys or free fall bombs (cant tell really, drops 2 of them). If it does indeed carry the 30mm and the 4 barrel 7.62, it just adds to what the helo can do. Then again, having both of them increases weight, which reduces range, payload etc.
Kamov has a niche. It makes really good and versatile naval helicopters. And it only makes sense that it continues to do so in the future. The Ka 50 was more or a revival for the company in Modern Russia if you ask me. The Ka 52K is a direct competitor to the AH1J SeaCobra. And we can all see where that is headed. Ka 52K can be called a niche helo too.
I dont think Mil is going to make anything similar to the Ka 31 for army use. Their Mi38 seems to have hit a dead end or the progress is really slow. The Ka 60/2 seems to be going the same way. So it is possible that the army might take the Ka 31 AWACS. But then again, cant tell much from the camo.
They just added an active defense system on the Mi 8 that helps it dodge incoming missiles, i guess IR seekers. There is progress but because all the companies got merged into a government-private conglomerate i dont think we'll see intercompany competition. Maybe they'll integrate the electronics suit to a Mi 8, may the Ka 29 will get the active defence system.
Serious question though, cant Russia make its own Mistrals ? I think if the deal goes sour, that is what they'll end up doing.
ARMAMENT: Four-barrel Gatling-type GShG-7.62 7.62mm machine gun, with 1,800 rounds, flexibly mounted behind down ward-articulated door on starboard side of nose; four pylons on outriggers, for two four-round packs of 9M114 Shturm (AT-6 'Spiral') ASMs and two UV-32-57 57 or B-8V20 80mm rocket pods. Alternative loads include four rocket packs, two pods each containing a 23mm gun and 250 rounds, or twn ZAB 500 incendiary bombs. Internal weapons bay for torpedo or bombs. Provision fur 30mm Type 2A42 gun above port outrigger, with 250-round ammunition feed from cabin.
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