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    Serbian Armed Forces

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:26 pm


    Nothing drastically new, just interesting video of M16 Milos and Lazar-3 MRAPs out and about:



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    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:20 pm

    Lightning strike 2021  Exclamation






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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:29 pm


    M-20 MRAP currently under development is on it's second iteration:





    Original one looks like this:

    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 20200907174254_620140

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    Russian_Patriot_
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:28 pm

    UAZ Patriot cars of the Serbian Military Police
    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 C7-far10

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:55 pm

    I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks? I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:09 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.


    I doubt they have the industry for tanks. Maybe quick upgrades but not build new ones.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:17 pm

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.
     

    I doubt they have the industry for tanks. Maybe quick upgrades but not build new ones.

    The older M-84's were new builds or upgrades?
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    Post  littlerabbit Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:40 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.
     

    I doubt they have the industry for tanks. Maybe quick upgrades but not build new ones.

    The older M-84's were new builds or upgrades?

    All our M-84 tanks are 30+ years old.

    Our people are working on new modernization, M-84AS2...they are modernizing first 10 units as we are speaking now, should be finished at the end of this year.


    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 M-84as10

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    littlerabbit
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    Post  littlerabbit Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:57 pm

    There is a new rumor saying that Serbia is buying 2 Casa C-295 and 1 Ilyushin Il-76 transport planes...don't have any solid confirmation, but our MOD announced that our paratroopers will have exercises with Spanish ones, so... dunno
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    Post  lancelot Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:35 pm

    M-84 industry was spread all over Yugoslavia. I think none of the successor nations can build a whole tank.

    CASA C-295 has been widely exported. Unfortunately Il-112 still not available so it would be little surprise if the EADS plane was selected.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:22 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:There is a new rumor saying that Serbia is buying 2 Casa C-295 and 1 Ilyushin Il-76 transport planes...don't have any solid confirmation, but our MOD announced that our paratroopers will have exercises with Spanish ones, so... dunno

    It would make sense, same approach as with helicopters: light ones from Europe, heavy ones from Russia

    Keep everyone happy



    miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.

    We make MRAPs because it's within our capability and because we do genuinely need them, during 90's we lost idiotic amount of troops in ambushes on tarp covered trucks, absolutely retarded

    Goal is to have armor on everything that troops move around in, protection above all



    Tanks (and tracked vehicles in general like IFVs) are way above above our pay grade

    Even old Yugoslavia really had to bend over backwards to make M-84s, tanks ain't easy (just look at India)

    Plus terrain over here is not exactly conductive to modern day tank warfare (lots of mountains), during Cold War yes but not anymore, times and tactics have changed

    On the upside this latest upgrade package for M-84s seems to be taken seriously and is being properly implemented, combined with imported T-72s we should be covered


    There is also upgrade package for BVP M-80 called M-80A, additional armor and other upgrades were installed while sacrificing amphibious capability (it's not needed here, just a handful of large bodies of water)

    I saw at least 3 of them during these latest exercises so it seems that this too might have gone in production as well

    New version:
    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 Serbian-army-modernize-its-fleet-of-bvp-m-80a


    Old version:
    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 BVP-M80A_Infantry_Fighting_Vehicle_Serbian_Army_4

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    Post  littlerabbit Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:17 pm

    There is also one more thing...it seems we will buy Kornet ATGM.

    That could mean we won't buy anything from Israel, probably due to their recognition of independence for a part of our territory (Kosovo and Metohija province).  study
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:10 pm

    Maybe, or that Kornet works and is cheaper.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:38 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:There is also one more thing...it seems we will buy Kornet ATGM.

    That could mean we won't buy anything from Israel...

    We will definitely be buying stuff from Israel, surveillance equipment was on the shopping list way before any ATGMs

    What I am curious about is what we will end up buying from USA, we will have to get something to keep them happy but what?

    I hope it's the T-7 jets but who knows and anything can happen...



    littlerabbit wrote:probably due to their recognition of independence for a part of our territory (Kosovo and Metohija province). study

    That thing has quite a few layers to it: we agreed to negotiate with USA who then negotiated with Kosovo so no touching happened

    Kosovo agreed to do things that they haven't implemented yet and for which are now getting squeezed by USA because USA signature is on that paper and pressure is slowly but surely rising

    We agreed with USA to move embassy to Jerusalem but we did not agree to Israel recognizing Kosovo and now when they did we put embassy move on ice (which we are in full right to do)

    Kosovo did immediately (and foolishly) open their embassy in Jerusalem which got them in extremely hot water with every single Muslim country on the planet, something that flies under the radar of media but which is a really big deal and a massive problem for them

    So the game continues...




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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I hope it's the T-7 jets but who knows and anything can happen...


    That's interesting. Are their any plans to buy into the F-35's in future?
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:13 pm

    Mir wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    I hope it's the T-7 jets but who knows and anything can happen...


    That's interesting. Are their any plans to buy into the F-35's in future?

    Nope and I could write 50 pages about why

    One crucial reason completely devoid of politics, price, history, quality and everything else is that it has no place in our defense doctrine: for us to use something we want complete access to the platform, F-35 is complete opposite of that approach

    This is one of the reasons why we opted for Chinese AA system, yes we are good with Chinese, the price was amazing and it's more​ mobile and compact than BUK but China was willing to give us (as early adopters) access to the system that even Russia would not be too eager to and allow us to do whatever we want with it from tweaking small things to developing completely new features

    Imagine doing that with F-35?

    Also we are set with MiG-29s now and if Russia doesn't fudge things up down the road with it's fighter jet production we will most likely get whatever they sell in that class later

    That MiG donation secured their spot on our purchase list





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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:20 pm

    Yes that's why I was wondering as the Mig-29's are set for a long future in Serbia.

    The T-7's will also come with a very steep price tag as well! Rather shop Chinese or get some Yak-130's for a nice replacement for the G-4's.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:04 am

    Mir wrote:Yes that's why I was wondering as the Mig-29's are set for a long future in Serbia...

    Switching to different plane manufacturer is a massive hassle and costs loads of money so if there is an option to keep buying from the same supplier any airforce will always pick that option

    Now it's up to Russians to either keep MiG-35 in production until then or to develop LMFS on time



    Mir wrote:...The T-7's will also come with a very steep price tag as well! Rather shop Chinese or get some Yak-130's for a nice replacement for the G-4's.

    Like I said we have to buy something from USA so they don't start acting up (nobody wants that) and T-7s are the only thing I can think of they are offering that we either don't already have or make ourselves

    Plus while they may be expensive we would be getting value for that money, those are good planes and fit perfectly for our airforce (also unlike Russian or Chinese they are supersonic so that's a big bonus)

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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:53 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Like I said we have to buy something from USA so they don't start acting up (nobody wants that) and T-7s are the only thing I can think of they are offering that we either don't already have or make ourselves



    Sounds a bit like extortion doesn't it? Laughing

    Just a side note: I think the EMB-314 Super Tucano would then actually be a great option as it can probably act as a duel role. I would like to see my country going for that option as well but with all the corruption the military is too scared to buy anything!
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:26 am

    Plus while they may be expensive we would be getting value for that money, those are good planes and fit perfectly for our airforce (also unlike Russian or Chinese they are supersonic so that's a big bonus)

    Hahaha... Really...

    Even medium and heavy fighters very rarely fly supersonic except those designed from the outset to super cruise or dedicated interceptors.

    Getting to supersonic speed takes too long and burns up most of your fuel and once you get supersonic you can't manouver very well and essentially fly very straight and pretty much have to fly at medium or high altitude making yourself a sitting duck for medium and long range SAMs.

    The only advantage to supersonic speeds is extra reach with AAMs... but small trainer/fighters are hardly going to be stretching AAM range very much against 200km range targets, and of course interception... which I would expect would more often be allocated to larger heavier fighters.

    Sounds a bit like extortion doesn't it?

    It is the game all countries have to play in the west... it is the way the US wants it.

    Actually thinking of something American that would be worth buying is quite an exercise... I would probably say night vision optics maybe, or some sort of relatively small drone system.... not their big super expensive murder bots of course, but something smaller.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:10 pm

    Mir wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Like I said we have to buy something from USA so they don't start acting up (nobody wants that) and T-7s are the only thing I can think of they are offering that we either don't already have or make ourselves

    Sounds a bit like extortion doesn't it? Laughing ...

    Of course it's extortion

    My bad if I was being too subtle



    Mir wrote:...Just a side note: I think the EMB-314 Super Tucano would then actually be a great option as it can probably act as a duel role....

    We already have our local plane in similar category, Iraq too has been using them to drop some heat on ISIS back during jihad glory days:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utva_Lasta

    But we do need something bigger and faster both for pilot training and bombing work, using jet trainers as fast light bombers is big part of our military doctrine

    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 1498495919_10

    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 1498495884_15

    Serbian Armed Forces - Page 9 1631136



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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:04 pm

    Mir wrote:PapaDragon"

    [quote="Mir"]...Just a side note: I think the EMB-314 Super Tucano would then actually be a great option as it can probably act as a duel role....

    We already have our local plane in similar category, Iraq too has been using them to drop some heat on ISIS back during jihad glory days:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utva_Lasta

    But we do need something bigger and faster both for pilot training and bombing work, using jet trainers as fast light bombers is big part of our military doctrine



    Ok maybe not quite in the same class as the Super Tucano but close enough I guess. Looks closer to the PC-7's performance.

    The Pakistan/Chinese JF-17B would fit nicely into your requirements (not kidding).
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:27 pm

    Mir wrote:...The Pakistan/Chinese JF-17B would fit nicely into your requirements (not kidding).

    They definitely would but if we did that it would still leave us with having to buy something from USA only this time we would be stuck with having to buy other stuff like AA systems

    Nobody wants to buy AA systems from USA

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    Post  Mir Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:12 pm

    The name "Patriot" does have a nice ring to it. lol!

    Sorry can't help you there, I can't think of anything US I can recommend (seriously).

    On second thought the F-16 is quite a nice fighter and that is probably the one thing you can get from the cheaply?thumbsup
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:01 am

    On second thought the F-16 is quite a nice fighter and that is probably the one thing you can get from the cheaply?

    Well that is the problem on two fronts... first of all it wont be cheap to operate... they have to make their money somehow and they will fight tooth and nail to prevent the customer country doing it themselves, and the second with the F-35 becoming more and more obviously a dog, I would think countries with F-16s will rather want to hang on to some because they are a lot cheaper to operate per flight hour for a start.

    Regarding US equipment.... Stingers work well, but it would make sense to look at things you will never actually need... in many regards Patriot is best when you never need to be able to use it... it is hard to make a sensible suggestion without knowing what Serbia makes itself vs what the US makes that would be adequate but not too much of a problem if it doesn't happen to be the best.

    Night vision equipment.

    Ideally you would want something that will enhance what Serbia can already make and then be able to show that to them and get them interested in buying it from you.

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