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    Serbian Armed Forces

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat 17 Nov 2018, 19:45

    d_taddei2 wrote:I'd imagine that if they got S -300 it would be small in number and more of political show of power as like people have said it's over kill. Moscow could of course donate or token price 4 systems and this would provide long range deterrence. 

    Ideally Buk M-3 would be great but unlikely to happen. M2 or buk MB and some belarussian stilets would be enough (could do a deal for buk MB & stilets together) Tor nice but too pricey. Pantsir with possible additional tunguska(donated/token price) and sonsa R. And a mix of manpads/strelets/dhigit/zu-23-2ZOM, possibly zsu-23-4M. With their modernised s-125, kub, sa-13. They would be good. 

    Biggest problem is money. Hence they would need a loan and receive token prices and donations. Upgraded zsu-23-4 & zu-23-2, sa-13 along with manpads/strelets would be sufficient for short range. The Pantsir/Tunguska would protect Buk, S-125, kub and sonsa R and stilets could be used to protect other units or buildings. The Buk Pantsir sonsa are moderately only expensive the rest are cheap including upgrades and providing favorable prices given.

    Token prices lmao... lol1 Stop it. There's little value for the Federation in doing that. One day Serbia could have S-300's, the next day the area where the S-300s were transported become a new country that pledges NATO allegiance the first day of it's existence. The political elite in Serbia is too inept and weak to protect their own territory...hello NATO member Montenegro? Next a hydro-electric dam was seized by Kosovo/Albanian special forces...aka Ethnic Bondstealians. If anything that needs investment is spinal-cord transplants for their spineless liberal elite. Neo-liberalism can turn 'Men in to Mice', see the immediate post-Soviet space for reference.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Sun 18 Nov 2018, 02:39

    They need at least 3 divizions (bth's) of long range SAM's plus additional MR and SR SAMs....apparently that's the conclusion of an official study


    miketheterrible wrote:Quite funny indeed.  Serbia may have gotten a loan from China in order to buy it.  Which would make sense.

    But as Papa said, they need Buks.  And I imagine Tor as well to protect Buk sites.  Buk-M3 being probably best option OR the chinese knockoff that is more or less a land variant of Shtil-1 which is vertical launch Buk.

    From what I gather, the cost for the refurbished S-300 is just under $300 million (3 x btn's), while they're apparently getting the FK-3 for about $100 million

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Token prices lmao... lol1 Stop it. There's little value for the Federation in doing that. One day Serbia could have S-300's, the next day the area where the S-300s were transported become a new country that pledges NATO allegiance the first day of it's existence. The political elite in Serbia is too inept and weak to protect their own territory...hello NATO member Montenegro? Next a hydro-electric dam was seized by Kosovo/Albanian special forces...aka Ethnic Bondstealians. If anything that needs investment is spinal-cord transplants for their spineless liberal elite. Neo-liberalism can turn 'Men in to Mice', see the immediate post-Soviet space for reference.

    You realise that Russia supported the independence of Montenegro back in 2006?? Pretty major own goal and slap in the face.

    I suppose they thought Oleg Deripaska and Roman Abramovich would be running the show from their hotels and yachts of the MN coast
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    Post  Guest Sun 18 Nov 2018, 18:42

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Serbia allegedly in negotiations to recieve-buy FK-3/HQ-22 Air Defence System from China instead of second hand S-300

    https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/otkrivamo-vucic-trazio-od-kine-tri-mocna-raketna-sistema-fk-3/ccmj9ek

    So instead of '2nd hand S-300' they'll get '3rd Party S-300'... Wink

    Well... sort of Smile
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    Post  Guest Sun 18 Nov 2018, 18:44

    miketheterrible wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Serbia allegedly in negotiations to recieve-buy FK-3/HQ-22 Air Defence System from China instead of second hand S-300

    https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/otkrivamo-vucic-trazio-od-kine-tri-mocna-raketna-sistema-fk-3/ccmj9ek

    So instead of '2nd hand S-300' they'll get '3rd Party S-300'... Wink

    Quite funny indeed.  Serbia may have gotten a loan from China in order to buy it.  Which would make sense.

    But as Papa said, they need Buks.  And I imagine Tor as well to protect Buk sites.  Buk-M3 being probably best option OR the chinese knockoff that is more or less a land variant of Shtil-1 which is vertical launch Buk.

    Not sure if loan, however this... creature we currently call President, said that "its already being paid for" and...that "certain equipment from China is coming free of charge". So we probably gave them something far more valuable in return... half of the country or something.
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    Post  Guest Sun 18 Nov 2018, 18:46

    littlerabbit wrote:

    If this Chinese system is really good, I'm all for it. We need something like that to scare off potential predators, especially NATO countries. I've heard that drones we are buying from China are coming in the same package with technology transfer. That is an excellent news. Wink    

    Full ToT is out of the question. However we are ground zero in certain areas of UAV tech, so we might get things we lack from the Chinese in order to finish few our mockups that we are dragging around for decade.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun 18 Nov 2018, 20:52

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Serbia allegedly in negotiations to recieve-buy FK-3/HQ-22 Air Defence System from China instead of second hand S-300

    https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/otkrivamo-vucic-trazio-od-kine-tri-mocna-raketna-sistema-fk-3/ccmj9ek

    So instead of '2nd hand S-300' they'll get '3rd Party S-300'... Wink

    Quite funny indeed.  Serbia may have gotten a loan from China in order to buy it.  Which would make sense.

    But as Papa said, they need Buks.  And I imagine Tor as well to protect Buk sites.  Buk-M3 being probably best option OR the chinese knockoff that is more or less a land variant of Shtil-1 which is vertical launch Buk.

    Not sure if loan, however this... creature we currently call President, said that "its already being paid for" and...that "certain equipment from  China is coming free of charge". So we probably gave them something far more valuable in return... half of the country or something.

    That is a shame.

    Maybe Serbia will be obtaining a lot of potential development from China? Dunno.
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    Post  Guest Sun 18 Nov 2018, 21:03

    miketheterrible wrote:

    That is a shame.

    Maybe Serbia will be obtaining a lot of potential development from China?  Dunno.

    We shall see. They mentioned some Chinese aid in domestic UAV development too.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun 18 Nov 2018, 21:04

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    That is a shame.

    Maybe Serbia will be obtaining a lot of potential development from China?  Dunno.

    We shall see. They mentioned some Chinese aid in domestic UAV development too.

    What are prospects of Chinese economic investments in Serbia?
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sun 18 Nov 2018, 21:09

    Sorry, but Serbia is landlocked and surrounded by the Pro-Nato types, so it's not really worth investing into, since their supplies can be easily cut off.

    I hear China's been investing there so they can get cheaper goods.
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    Post  Guest Sun 18 Nov 2018, 21:14

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    That is a shame.

    Maybe Serbia will be obtaining a lot of potential development from China?  Dunno.

    We shall see. They mentioned some Chinese aid in domestic UAV development too.

    What are prospects of Chinese economic investments in Serbia?

    Currently Chinese own one of the biggest industrial hubs in Serbia, steel mill Smederevo, some 6.000 ppl work there, its like 10% of Serbian GDP. They are aiming to take over our biggest mining company RTB Bor in some kind of partnerishp.

    Currently they allegedly signed two contracts to build factories, one to cast and produce zinc alloys, and one to produce car tires. They have ongoing projects with the gov. for refubrishing some railway lines...building bridges..etc.

    Some info: http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/ekonomija/aktuelno.239.html:749882-Srbija-luka-za-kineske-investicije

    More: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/new-agreements-boost-china-role-in-serbia-09-18-2018

    However as usually it looks alot better on paper than in reality, but we shall see.
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    Post  Guest Sun 18 Nov 2018, 21:20

    AlfaT8 wrote:Sorry, but Serbia is landlocked and surrounded by the Pro-Nato types, so it's not really worth investing into, since their supplies can be easily cut off.

    I hear China's been investing there so they can get cheaper goods.

    China is also investing billions in Australia, Canada, Germany, USA... Actually i believe last few years top taget for their investments was US itself following by Australia, Canada and Russia.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun 18 Nov 2018, 23:28

    Isn't serbia a German "market"? Most of serbian dream of geting the fuck out of the country. Lot of schools are empty out of big cities. Economy is not good at all since big projects were spared in all yougoslavia. You lost kosovo. You have no access to sea.

    Chinese giving you money for your steel production, that biggest countries in the world can compete you, isn't bad.
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    Post  Cyberspec Mon 19 Nov 2018, 06:16

    One of the routes that's part of the Chinese "New Silk Road" is planned to go through the Balkans. China has bought a controlling stake in the Greek port of Piraeus....to bring it's products to lets say Germany, the cargo has to go up the Vardar-Morava valley (Macedonia-Serbia) then into Hungary and so on. ...

    Serbia has low wages, low power costs, a pretty well educated population and is friendly to China and Chinese investments...so is attractive from Chinese perspective

    Sounds like the Chinese are serious according to reports

    Serbia taps into rich stream of Chinese investment
    http://www.intellinews.com/serbia-taps-into-rich-stream-of-chinese-investment-148771/


    Although, the walking dead in the EU (together with our friend Miltarov) are not happy about it

    Merkel warns against China's influence in Balkans
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2134196/merkel-warns-against-chinas-influence-balkans
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon 19 Nov 2018, 09:17

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:I'd imagine that if they got S -300 it would be small in number and more of political show of power as like people have said it's over kill. Moscow could of course donate or token price 4 systems and this would provide long range deterrence. 

    Ideally Buk M-3 would be great but unlikely to happen. M2 or buk MB and some belarussian stilets would be enough (could do a deal for buk MB & stilets together) Tor nice but too pricey. Pantsir with possible additional tunguska(donated/token price) and sonsa R. And a mix of manpads/strelets/dhigit/zu-23-2ZOM, possibly zsu-23-4M. With their modernised s-125, kub, sa-13. They would be good. 

    Biggest problem is money. Hence they would need a loan and receive token prices and donations. Upgraded zsu-23-4 & zu-23-2, sa-13 along with manpads/strelets would be sufficient for short range. The Pantsir/Tunguska would protect Buk, S-125, kub and sonsa R and stilets could be used to protect other units or buildings. The Buk Pantsir sonsa are moderately only expensive the rest are cheap including upgrades and providing favorable prices given.

    Token prices lmao... lol1 Stop it. There's little value for the Federation in doing that. One day Serbia could have S-300's, the next day the area where the S-300s were transported become a new country that pledges NATO allegiance the first day of it's existence. The political elite in Serbia is too inept and weak to protect their own territory...hello NATO member Montenegro? Next a hydro-electric dam was seized by Kosovo/Albanian special forces...aka Ethnic Bondstealians. If anything that needs investment is spinal-cord transplants for their spineless liberal elite. Neo-liberalism can turn 'Men in to Mice', see the immediate post-Soviet space for reference.
    I mentioned biggest problem was money to buy this equipment and hence stated donation or token prices because this is likely only way to get them other than deals or loans. I was speaking in the interests of Serbia not Russia. Russia would only do such a move if it benefited them in any way. As for montenegro well they were hell bent on becoming a member and with natos clout to have them not a lot Serbia could do. I agree on the dam escapade. Being landlocked doesn't help either. Serbia ideally needs to strengthen it's economy before anything else. And with these Chinese deals etc it seems a switch from Russia. Although u might find that q bigger strategy is at play with a joint Russian and Chinese plan China has more money to invest it seems. I think we are going to see much more investment etc with a joint strategy with China and Russia with the increasing usa sanctions on China and move away from the dollar. Take Africa for example chinas heavy investment there and with increased Russian deals and military training. Africa is almost an untapped investment market with China exploiting that fact. Western countries have relied upon influence and bullying of african countries with the use of aid but Africa is starting to realise this. And want something better although there is a few people who are against Chinese involvement but whst other option is on the table I ask. Djibouti is about to become an expensive place with Chinese base and they want to build an African Las Vegas there. Somaliland are getting investment from middle east and now with Eritrea and Ethiopian ties becoming better Eritrea will likely see more investment to tap into large manpower of Ethiopia. China already building trainline from Djibouti to Ethiopia. Had Somalia been stable you would have that it would have been the country of choice
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon 19 Nov 2018, 15:11

    Cyberspec wrote:One of the routes that's part of the Chinese "New Silk Road" is planned to go through the Balkans. China has bought a controlling stake in the Greek port of Piraeus....to bring it's products to lets say Germany, the cargo has to go up the Vardar-Morava valley (Macedonia-Serbia) then into Hungary and so on. ...

    Serbia has low wages, low power costs, a pretty well educated population and is friendly to China and Chinese investments...so is attractive from Chinese perspective

    Sounds like the Chinese are serious according to reports

    Serbia taps into rich stream of Chinese investment
    http://www.intellinews.com/serbia-taps-into-rich-stream-of-chinese-investment-148771/


    Although, the walking dead in the EU (together with our friend Miltarov) are not happy about it

    Merkel warns against China's influence in Balkans
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2134196/merkel-warns-against-chinas-influence-balkans

    Ferkel Merkel. Angela "I'm against MultiKulti at all costs" Merkel lol1, also Angela "I was a direct benefactor of the East-German bureaucratic police state...but the media still takes me serious on the issue of human rights and transparency" Merkel
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    Post  Guest Tue 20 Nov 2018, 00:29

    Isos wrote:Isn't serbia a German "market"? Most of serbian dream of geting the fuck out of the country. Lot of schools are empty out of big cities. Economy is not good at all since big projects were spared in all yougoslavia. You lost kosovo. You have no access to sea.

    Chinese giving you money for your steel production, that biggest countries in the world can compete you, isn't bad.

    Serbia has big financial exchange with Germany, but we do so with Italy and few other EU countries too.

    Well yeah, majority of young people are trying to get jobs in EU or leave for the USA. Schools empty.... not really, actually we got like 20% increase in college graduates compared to two decades ago.

    The thing is that our factories and industry were thrown into ruin by people in order for Chinese, Germans and similar to be able to come buy it for few bucks and whoala, look like some kind of saviors. Serbia is the only country on Earth that has petrochemical industry that is piling up loses in tens of millions USD every year. In order to be given away for few coins in year or two, and then it will by some miracle start earning.
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    Post  Guest Tue 20 Nov 2018, 00:30

    Cyberspec wrote:One of the routes that's part of the Chinese "New Silk Road" is planned to go through the Balkans. China has bought a controlling stake in the Greek port of Piraeus....to bring it's products to lets say Germany, the cargo has to go up the Vardar-Morava valley (Macedonia-Serbia) then into Hungary and so on. ...

    Serbia has low wages, low power costs, a pretty well educated population and is friendly to China and Chinese investments...so is attractive from Chinese perspective

    Sounds like the Chinese are serious according to reports

    Serbia taps into rich stream of Chinese investment
    http://www.intellinews.com/serbia-taps-into-rich-stream-of-chinese-investment-148771/


    Although, the walking dead in the EU (together with our friend Miltarov) are not happy about it

    Merkel warns against China's influence in Balkans
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2134196/merkel-warns-against-chinas-influence-balkans

    Want more of science fiction?

    http://www.rapp.gov.rs/Storage/Global/Documents/Prezentacije/Schiller%20Institute%20presentation_final.pdf
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue 20 Nov 2018, 01:45

    Militarov wrote:

    Want more of science fiction?

    http://www.rapp.gov.rs/Storage/Global/Documents/Prezentacije/Schiller%20Institute%20presentation_final.pdf

    Doesn't look too fantastic to me assuming there's foreign investors (read Chinese) interested in it


    The thing is that our factories and industry were thrown into ruin by people in order for Chinese, Germans and similar to be able to come buy it for few bucks and whoala, look like some kind of saviors. Serbia is the only country on Earth that has petrochemical industry that is piling up loses in tens of millions USD every year. In order to be given away for few coins in year or two, and then it will by some miracle start earning.

    That's because until recently you guys were subscribers to the "EU = Eldorado / EU or Death" fiction....their plans for the former YU is to be a back water suitable only as consumers for their products and dumping ground...it's not in their interest to support development of successful industries.....they're in the business of selling ideologies.

    Obviously the Chinese will also look after their own interests as well, but their model doesn't include trying to break up the country or turn it into a self hating neo-liberal wonderland.

    "For China, Kosovo is Serbia, and so it shall remain"
    https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2018&mm=07&dd=16&nav_id=104639


    Another thing....more significant Chinese/Russian involvement also gives the government more space to maneuver diplomaticaly and withstand political pressure
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    Post  George1 Sat 24 Nov 2018, 15:31

    Serbia received the first helicopter H145M

    On November 22, 2018, Serbian Minister of Defense Alexander Vulin visited the Airbus Helicopters facility in Dunauvert (Germany), where he took part in the ceremony of handing over the first of the nine Serbian government light multi-purpose H145M multi-purpose helicopters to Serbia. The transferred helicopter has a tail number "14501", serial number 20231 and temporary German registration D-HADD. The helicopter will be delivered to Serbia in March 2019.

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    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3425824.html
    George1
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    Post  George1 Tue 25 Dec 2018, 13:36

    Serbian army received the first Lazar 3 armored personnel carriers

    On December 20, 2018, Serbian Defense Minister Alexander Vulin and the Chief of the General Staff of the Serbian Armed Forces, Lieutenant General Milan Moysilovic, visited the Nikinki military training ground, where they familiarized themselves with the first six Lazar 3 armored vehicles with the 8x8 wheeled formula supplied by the Jugoimport-SDPR military-industrial association land forces of Serbia. The first six Lazar 3 vehicles received the 41st Infantry Battalion of the 4th Serbian Brigade of the Ground Forces (41. Peshadijan Battalion, 4. Kopnene Voosk Brigade) stationed in Vrana in the south of the country. This is the first delivery of new production armored vehicles to the Serbian army units since the dissolution of the SFRY.

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    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3471265.html
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue 25 Dec 2018, 19:49

    Serbian members here:

    What is the current take on the Lazar? How does the military find it?

    as well, is there any plans to increase the weapon size on such a vessel, like an anti tank roll or more heavy IFV type?
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue 25 Dec 2018, 20:06

    miketheterrible wrote:Serbian members here:

    What is the current take on the Lazar?  How does the military find it?

    as well, is there any plans to increase the weapon size on such a vessel, like an anti tank roll or more heavy IFV type?
    Firstly sorry I ain't serbian apologies 

    but I am led to believe lazar 1/bvt wasn't selected by serbs and that had a 20mm gun. They opted for the lazar 3 which has 30mm and that's probably enough. Although if they wanted to they could take 40mm bofors and use that but I think 30mm for this type of vehicle is plenty. As for roles the usual roles apply and as for ATGW system it will likely be sagger AT-3 they have there own improved version with tandem warhead and then they have the 2T5 radio guided out to 5km I can't see them getting anything else due to costs.
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    Post  Guest Tue 25 Dec 2018, 23:02

    miketheterrible wrote:Serbian members here:

    What is the current take on the Lazar?  How does the military find it?

    as well, is there any plans to increase the weapon size on such a vessel, like an anti tank roll or more heavy IFV type?

    Seems to start with army isnt really satisfied with its current armament package. And there seem to be serious compromises to keep its price low as possible in terms of capabilities. Components are mostly of Western origin, it has to be mentioned too, which certain people in the Army dislike, but noone is asking them jack shit.

    It was supposed originally to be offered to the army with Russian MB2-02 turret, however state doesnt seem interested into paying for those turrets at this moment.
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    Post  Guest Tue 25 Dec 2018, 23:03

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Serbian members here:

    What is the current take on the Lazar?  How does the military find it?

    as well, is there any plans to increase the weapon size on such a vessel, like an anti tank roll or more heavy IFV type?
    Firstly sorry I ain't serbian apologies 

    but I am led to believe lazar 1/bvt wasn't selected by serbs and that had a 20mm gun. They opted for the lazar 3 which has 30mm and that's probably enough. Although if they wanted to they could take 40mm bofors and use that but I think 30mm for this type of vehicle is plenty. As for roles the usual roles apply and as for ATGW system it will likely be sagger AT-3 they have there own improved version with tandem warhead and then they have the 2T5 radio guided out to 5km I can't see them getting anything else due to costs.

    Lazars currently delivered to the army are armed only with domestic DUBS featuring HMG as main armament, no cannon.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed 26 Dec 2018, 01:32

    Militarov wrote:...
    Seems to start with army isnt really satisfied with its current armament package. And there seem to be serious compromises to keep its price low as possible in terms of capabilities. Components are mostly of Western origin, it has to be mentioned too, which certain people in the Army dislike, but noone is asking them jack shit...

    With good reason: if war happens we won't be getting any spare parts from either West or East so component origin is irelevant. Take what's available and improvise in a pinch as always.

    Also I do love how they are so picky about every single piece of gear they get even though they haven't been getting anything​ meaningful for 20 years minimum. Doesn't stop them for using this thing in every single advertising campaign over past 5 years.

    Almost as autistic and entitled as Russian Navy. With even less justification if it's even possible...


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