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    U.S Military encirclement of China

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:18 pm

    The futility of being ‘tough’ on China

    they now have expanding BRI network & blue water navy; merchant ships can form convoys & be escorted.
    U.S Military encirclement of China - Page 9 Mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmcusercontent.com%2F2049a8663daea00bd30c32cf2%2Fimages%2F7b23123d-3d31-4d87-b42b-a40c977256b3
    US ratchets up China overflights: report
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:54 pm

    LMFS wrote:Yeah, piracy was actually proposed lately as a way of countering the Chinese trade might, only a nicer name was used. They see it fit to use the advantages of controlling the seas and not be restrained by such BS as international law. It is going to get pretty interesting out there and it is actually likely that situations like we have seen with VMF units protecting purely civilian vessels in international waters (NS2, an Iranian tanker bound to Syria recently) are going to get more frequent. I guess it makes the case for the blue water development of the VMF even more clear.

    *Laughs in containerized weapons* Wink

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:24 am

    US OKs $2.4 Billion Harpoon Missiles to Taiwan
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:12 am

    Actually the interesting thing would be a shorter 40 foot container that is optimised for air defence with a raise-able cannon mount and short range missiles for sinking ships like those mini Uran missiles... imagine the US Coast guard approaches a Chinese flagged container ship and a 23mm twin barrel cannon mount pops up from one container sitting on the deck and a turret mount with Igla-S missiles pops out the top of another container... I mean obviously for use with the small group of naval infantry soldiers on board for use against pirates, but can be used against any pirates trying to get aboard the ship... whether on rubber speed boats or helicopters... some pirate forces are very well equipped...

    Who can forget their dominance of the whaling business? Nearly hunted whales to extinction.

    Typical fing white people... we cut down our forests to build farms and make money but when Brazil or Indonesia do it (often big western companies funding the burnoffs of course... wanting farmers to pay back loans so they have to expand production)....
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    Post  RTN Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:imagine the US Coast guard approaches a Chinese flagged container ship and a 23mm twin barrel cannon mount pops up from one container sitting on the deck and a turret mount with Igla-S missiles pops out the top of another container... I mean obviously for use with the small group of naval infantry soldiers on board for use against pirates, but can be used against any pirates trying to get aboard the ship... whether on rubber speed boats or helicopters... some pirate forces are very well equipped...
    If this is how things will unfold then US Navy, US Coast Guard will target every single Chinese merchant vessel because they are causing civilian casualties.

    Already PLA Navy is using container ships to test ballistic missile launch.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:33 am

    The US Coast Guard has no right to search ships in international waters near the coast of China, and certainly no rights to manage the fisheries of other nations.

    They can try to target every Chinese ship but when they are told no you cannot board then what authority or right do they have to continue?

    The US Coast Guard is not the US Navy.

    And even if it was who cares?

    What civilian casualties?

    Defending yourself from pirates is perfectly legal... whether they are in US Coast Guard boats or not.

    Why would they not test ballistic missiles on any ships they please?

    The CIA and NSA have all sorts of armed ships all round the place doing dirty things... including drug smuggling and also including kidnapping foreign nationals.

    The US Navy threatening to board and seize Iranian vessels alone is enough reason for most ships on the high seas to think of US Navy and US Coast Guard ships as hostile.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:21 am

    The US Coast Guard has no right to search ships in international waters near the coast of China, and certainly no rights to manage the fisheries of other nations.
    True, unless it's in the disputed waters like in the East & SC Seas. They can claim to be helping to enforce the court decision in favor of the Philippines- that the PRC didn't accept, & in line with mutual US-Philippines-Japan defence treaties.

    US Commander: Troops Can Be Sent To Defend Senkaku Islands

    How the US and India became brothers in arms

    Behind China’s threat to support insurgency in India


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:54 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:38 pm

    Australia getting burned by its anti-China policies
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:14 am

    They can claim to be helping to enforce the court decision in favor of the Philippines- that the PRC didn't accept, & in line with mutual US-Philippines-Japan defence treaties.

    They can claim anything they like... it changes nothing... trying to board a ship without permission is piracy... they have a right to defend themselves... and chinese ships can do the same to non chinese ships in the area too.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:36 am

    trying to board a ship without permission is piracy...
    Not if that ship/boat is violating an EEZ or territorial waters. The USCG may just ram them & let its allies take it in custody. 
    It had done ship boardings & inspections in the Persian Gulf enforcing sanctions on Iraq since 1991 till 2003.
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    Post  PhSt Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:51 am

    The USCG may just ram them & let its allies take it in custody.

    I'm pretty sure the Chinese maritime militia far outnumbers any USCG in the area, so if a Chinese ship gets "rammed" then perhaps some 10 Chinese ships will ram them back.

    And based on Chinese ship movements in the South China Sea, they do operate within the EEZ of countries like the Philippines or Vietnam, but never on their territorial waters.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:44 pm

    The USCG ships can jamm comms &/ shoot off their antennas. Also they'll work with dozens of allied CG/fishing boats, helos & UAVs.
    Iceland chased off UK & West German fishing boats from her waters.
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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    trying to board a ship without permission is piracy...
    Not if that ship/boat is violating an EEZ or territorial waters. The USCG may just ram them & let its allies take it in custody. 
    It had done ship boardings & inspections in the Persian Gulf enforcing sanctions on Iraq since 1991 till 2003.

    BS. The EEZ is not territorial waters. It is an economic exploitation claim. No country has the right to board or detain
    any ship in the EEZ. As for poachers going for fish in the EEZ, that is more complicated since it involves actual economic
    violation and not any other sort of violation which the EEZ does not control.

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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:56 pm

    PhSt wrote:
    The USCG may just ram them & let its allies take it in custody.

    I'm pretty sure the Chinese maritime militia far outnumbers any USCG in the area, so if a Chinese ship gets "rammed" then perhaps some 10 Chinese ships will ram them back.

    And based on Chinese ship movements in the South China Sea, they do operate within the EEZ of countries like the Philippines or Vietnam, but never on their territorial waters.

    America loves to wave its dick around. But Mao was right at least in part. It is a paper tiger used to suppressing 3rd world countries and
    not fighting real opponents. All the yapping about US achievements during WWII are a total joke aside from the two atomic bombs they
    dropped on Japan. That was their one and only achievement during the war. During the Korean war the US did very poorly so it is not
    even all that good at colonial suppression campaigns. It's one note Johnny shtick of bombing their target back to the stone age will not
    work on China and Russia.



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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:53 pm

    BS.  The EEZ is not territorial waters.   It is an economic exploitation claim.   No country has the right to board or detain any ship in the EEZ.   As for poachers going for fish in the EEZ, that is more complicated since it involves actual economic violation and not any other sort of violation which the EEZ does not control. wrote:
    https://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part7.htm

    In the event that foreign vessels do not respect coastal States' laws and regulations, the latter can take several actions depending on where the non-complying vessel is located. The concept of self-defense underlies the possibility of such actions. Although the best way to resolve such an incident is by diplomatic means, the coastal State is allowed to take forceful measures if the foreign vessel refuses to obey demands of compliance. However, the use of force against the vessel must be necessary and proportionate to the offense committed. Even on the high seas, the foreign vessel can be arrested if it has committed crimes that are deemed so important that any State can take actions against them.
    https://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=pilr

    However, the LOSC permit coastal States to adopt laws
    and regulations related to passage through the territorial sea in the following list of circumstances: 
    ..The conservation of the living resources of the sea;
    The prevention of infringement of the fisheries laws and regulations of the coastal State; .. https://sites.tufts.edu/lawofthesea/chapter-three/
    EEZ can be claimed in whole or in part as "territorial sea", as 

    1. The sovereignty of a coastal State extends, beyond its land territory and internal waters and, in the case of an archipelagic State, its archipelagic waters, to an adjacent belt of sea, described as the territorial sea.
    https://www.unodc.org/documents/Maritime_crime/UNODC_GMCP_-_Maritime_Crime_-_A_Manual_for_Criminal_Justice_Practitioners_2017_2.pdf
    Btw, besides SC Sea claims by the rlevant SE Asian states, parts of Russia's NSR & Canada's NW Passage also fall into this category.

    When a coastal State engages in law enforcement actions in relation to its exclusive economic zone, it does not need to seek permission from the flag State of a suspect vessel before it boards and searches that vessel. This is because the coastal State has the sovereign right to make laws in relation to certain matters in its exclusive economic zone as well as the corresponding right to enforce those laws. The coastal State’s rights in the exclusive economic zone are therefore not subject to the requirement of flag State consent before a boarding operation designed to confirm (or dispel) the coastal State’s suspicion that a vessel is breaching a coastal State law applicable in the exclusive economic zone. If the suspicions are confirmed upon boarding and  further investigation, the coastal State can then take that vessel, its crew and cargo back to a coastal State port for further investigation. Again, the coastal State does not need to seek flag State permission to do so. If a breach is confirmed, then the vessel, crew and/or cargo (e.g. the illegal catch found on the vessel) can be subjected to further legal processes in the coastal  State
    https://www.unodc.org/documents/Maritime_crime/UNODC_GMCP_-_Maritime_Crime_-_A_Manual_for_Criminal_Justice_Practitioners_2017_2.pdf


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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:35 am


    When a coastal State engages in law enforcement actions in relation to its exclusive economic zone, it does not need to seek permission from the flag State of a suspect vessel before it boards and searches that vessel. This is because the coastal State has the sovereign right to make laws in relation to certain matters in its exclusive economic zone as well as the corresponding right to enforce those laws. The coastal State’s rights in the exclusive economic zone are therefore not subject to the requirement of flag State consent before a boarding operation designed to confirm (or dispel) the coastal State’s suspicion that a vessel is breaching a coastal State law applicable in the exclusive economic zone. If the suspicions are confirmed upon boarding and  further investigation, the coast... blah blah blah

    Does not apply to the US coast guard 5 thousand fucking miles from any US territory.

    In the event that foreign vessels do not respect coastal States' laws and regulations, the latter can take several actions depending on where the non-complying vessel is located.

    When the waters involved are disputed then no laws or regulations apply until the legality of the claims are sorted out... whether the Yanks come over and interfere or not.

    BTW UNSC rulings are regularly ignored by the US when it suits them so they don't apply when the US is involved in anything anyway... you can't ignore some rules and demand others are followed...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:04 am

    Does not apply to the US coast guard 5 thousand fucking miles from any US territory.
    not if it was invited by coastal states to act on their behalf.

    When the waters involved are disputed then no laws or regulations apply until the legality of the claims are sorted out... whether the Yanks come over and interfere or not.
    The court in Hague ruled in favour of the Philippines & against all PRC claims there. On that basis, the US help is legal.

    BTW UNSC rulings are regularly ignored by the US when it suits them so they don't apply when the US is involved in anything anyway... you can't ignore some rules and demand others are followed...
    The US isn't a legal party to territorial disputes in the E/S China Seas. However, they want to contain China & r using the freedom of navigation issue & current defence agreements with allies to stick their nose there, on their behalf, & w/o any objections on the part of those allies. 
    Therefore, the US non-ratification of the UNCLOS is not relevant.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:41 am

    not if it was invited by coastal states to act on their behalf.

    The areas in question are disputed, neither the coastal states nor the US coast guard have any rights till offical borders are agreed upon by all parties... until then it is piracy which means the Chinese navy can defend its ships...

    The court in Hague ruled in favour of the Philippines & against all PRC claims there. On that basis, the US help is legal.

    Why do you think the Hague gets the final say in anything?

    The US isn't a legal party to territorial disputes in the E/S China Seas.

    Which makes any actions illegal in this regard.

    However, they want to contain China & r using the freedom of navigation issue & current defence agreements with allies to stick their nose there, on their behalf, & w/o any objections on the part of those allies.
    Therefore, the US non-ratification of the UNCLOS is not relevant.

    The fact that the US has not ratified the UNCLOS means they have no say in imposing anyones will and have no rights at all in this situation.

    BTW the Russians are sending a large armed military force to New York... they were invited by the American Indians, so I am sure local white Americans will do what those Russians tell them to do... apparently a court in the Hague said it was OK. It was a Mexican food court in the Hague, but that still counts right?

    The US uses "invitations" as excuses for invasion all the time, and their claims they are doing this legally simply don't prove true... hense US troops in all sorts of countries that don't want them there but can't get rid of them... ask Cuba... ask Syria... ask Afghanistan... hell... ask Japan and Germany...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:36 pm

    The areas in question are disputed, neither the coastal states nor the US coast guard have any rights till offical borders are agreed upon by all parties... until then it is piracy which means the Chinese navy can defend its ships... Why do you think the Hague gets the final say in anything?  ..Which makes any actions illegal in this regard.
    The artificial islands that the PRC created & militarized in the SCS pushed the legal envelope for her claims there- w/o them, the areas around them would be well outside 200 mile EEZ around Hainan & the Mainland coast. China doesn't & won't agree on the borders claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam & Taiwan. Thus, the USN/CG & AF r acting as a counterweight to the PLAN/AF. Hague gets the final say in many cases; when it doesn't, those with means willing to enforce its verdicts do think they have the final say. They can defend their allies' ships & boats from CCG/Militia harassments, damn all the legalities.
    The fact that the US has not ratified the UNCLOS means they have no say in imposing anyone's will and have no rights at all in this situation.
    By the same token, the PRC is violating it by claiming a huge area in the SCS around the artificial islands which r closer to/within littoral states' coasts/EEZs. Since those states welcome the US help & the US is happy to oblige as it fits their policy of containing China, & since they do have obligations to their allies that did ratify it, all is perfectly legal, regardless what other agreements the US isn't a party to or refused to ratify.  
    I don't take any1 side on this evolving issue, just being objective & impartial observer.
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    Post  kvs Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:37 pm

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-outraged-after-pompeo-removes-terrorist-label-hardline-uighur-jihadist-group

    China expressed outrage and frustration Friday after the US officially delisted the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) as an official terror organization.

    The group is a hardline Islamist group rooted in Muslim Uighur-dominant Xinjiang province that has sent foreign fighters to Syria, where it's been observed cooperating with Syrian al-Qaeda and ISIS over the past years to try and oust Assad. It's also believed the ETIM still has a presence in Idlib. Its ultimate goal is to erect an Islamic state in Western China and Central Asia.

    And the USA bitches to the world about Iran. It is rather obvious that the US is a terrorist supporter and that fact is cemented
    by Saudi Arabia being a US protectorate.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:10 am

    The artificial islands that the PRC created & militarized in the SCS pushed the legal envelope for her claims there-

    Unlike various islands around the world the the US and UK have seized for their own purposes which they claim are legal and have rights to use and abuse as they see fit.

    The islands the Chinese built are clearly Chinese property.

    China doesn't & won't agree on the borders claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam & Taiwan.

    There are plenty of conflicts over tiny uninhabited rocks in that region and those claims overlap... it is not like everyone agrees except China... those countries have conflicting views of ownership and EEZ zones between themselves too.

    Thus, the USN/CG & AF r acting as a counterweight to the PLAN/AF. Hague gets the final say in many cases; when it doesn't, those with means willing to enforce its verdicts do think they have the final say. They can defend their allies' ships & boats from CCG/Militia harassments, damn all the legalities.

    Effectively what you are saying is that the Hague is a partizan blowhole that no one respects or listens to any more because they are a bunch of unelected assholes who are more biased than having no judges at all, and the US is trying to impose its will using military power.

    What I am saying is that China has no reason to respect US naval power and should continue to build up its navy and we will see what happens.

    There is no way the US could land on those Chinese made islands so the Chinese military will always have home advantage.

    I don't take any1 side on this evolving issue, just being objective & impartial observer.

    The US has a stated goal of "containing" China and are not impartial despite your claims they are just trying to enforce an international law they haven't even signed up to themselves.

    You are being anything but impartial.... which makes you no different from the court in the Hague.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:43 am

    Before the Han & Qin reached the S. Chinese coast, they had to subjugate the natives living south of the Yangtze river. 
    Great power rivalry was going on since the time of ancient Egyptian, Hittite, Assyro-Babylonian & Persian empires; the current USA-PRC rivalry is just the latest in this series. China propped up her claims by building islands on rocks & reefs- but this fact is being used against her to delegitimize them, regardless of the past history of Western colonisation of many islands elsewhere. Although not captured from natives, these artificial islands do infringe on the SCS littoral natives by virtue of their overlapping EEZs. The PRC also captured the Paracels from Vietnam.
    The human affairs r full of injustices, unnecessary strife & suffering; every party to a dispute has its own truth & reasons for acting the way it does. Politics is the art of the possible- there is no room for morality & philosophy in it.
    US Commander: Be Ready for Conflict With China
    What really drives the South China Sea conflict


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N1fMMsY3sQ

    In this forum, on many occasions I sympathized with Asians (who btw also fought among themselves for millenia) while not justifying Western expansionism. However, there's no such thing as a benevolent empire. Any empire & lesser regional power would do what they must to preserve themselves, with all justifications their scholars, politicians, propagandists, lawyers, clergy, & top military commanders can come up with.


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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:49 am

    avatar
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    Post  nero Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:46 am

    The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) is going to be signed.

    Fifteen Asia-Pacific nations including China and Japan plan to sign the world’s biggest free trade deal this weekend. The FTA will cut tariffs, strengthen supply chains with common rules of origin, and codify new e-commerce rules.

    The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) is expected to be announced at the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Summit, which Vietnam is hosting virtually. It will involve the ten member states of the ASEAN bloc – Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam – as well as their trade partners Australia, China, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.

    The new economic bloc will thus represent around a third of the world’s gross domestic product and population.

    It will become the first-ever free trade agreement to include China, Japan, and South Korea – Asia’s first, second and fourth-largest economies.

    This is quite a blow to US influence in Asia.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:51 am

    nero wrote:The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) is going to be signed.

    Fifteen Asia-Pacific nations including China and Japan plan to sign the world’s biggest free trade deal this weekend. The FTA will cut tariffs, strengthen supply chains with common rules of origin, and codify new e-commerce rules.

    The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) is expected to be announced at the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Summit, which Vietnam is hosting virtually. It will involve the ten member states of the ASEAN bloc – Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam – as well as their trade partners Australia, China, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.

    The new economic bloc will thus represent around a third of the world’s gross domestic product and population.

    It will become the first-ever free trade agreement to include China, Japan, and South Korea – Asia’s first, second and fourth-largest economies.

    This is quite a blow to US influence in Asia.

    Yeah the free trade deals US proposed excluded China and was economically irrational and detrimental and was political by nature, and it failed miserably. clown  Meanwhile this one includes China, and excludes America. lol1

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