Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1071
    Points : 1069
    Join date : 2015-12-30

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:46 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:

    Are these both for Russia or India?
    They are both for india. India is buying the engines from the ukraine and delivering them to Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad.

    What is not clear is instead the fate of the third ship (admiral Kornilov) as I was asking in my previous post.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6199
    Points : 6191
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:23 pm

    What is not clear is instead the fate of the third ship (admiral Kornilov) as I was asking in my previous post.

    Their pacific fleet desperatly needs new ships.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:58 am

    Grigorovich is on a bit of a long range trip, has docked at Colombo.
    https://charly015.blogspot.com/2020/06/la-grigorovich-en-sri-lanka.html
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:37 pm


    Something is being tested on Admiral Essen

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 EhPDMu0WkAEnEij?format=jpg&name=large
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2083
    Points : 2085
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:06 pm

    It's tempting to suggest its a slant-launcher for Oniks (& Calibre/Zircon?). We know that Oniks can be launched from slant tubes instead of the usual vertical launch and flip-over (as tested on the Nakat and deployed on Indian frigates) but the RuN has not yet adopted them.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:24 pm

    More likely another active homing Shtil test I'd say.
    That was tested on Essen & using a similar mount.

    I'm also pretty sure thats too small to be a Kalibr/Onyx tube.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2083
    Points : 2085
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:35 am

    hoom wrote:More likely another active homing Shtil test I'd say.
    That was tested on Essen & using a similar mount.

    I'm also pretty sure thats too small to be a Kalibr/Onyx tube.

    Ah.. well... yes of course Embarassed

    I noted that it was installed directly over the Shtil bin, and it looks a lot like a tube from the Buk-M3.  Shoulda realised...
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:28 am

    It is a missile tube sitting on a metal frame that is resting on a vertical launch missile system.

    It looks like the sort of metal framed stands they use to display missiles at airshows and weapon displays... it is certainly not a launch set up for testing or anything else.

    If you wanted to launch from the tube at that angle mounted on that frame you would use a barge platform... it is cheaper and not doing anything else so it is available.

    They would learn nothing at all trying to launch that missile from that frame in that location, it would be dangerous and pointless... what if the missile launch made the frame fall over and the launching missile left its tube straight into the deck of the ship?

    What could they possibly learn from such a launch even if it worked?

    This is nothing... I would ignore it.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6199
    Points : 6191
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:36 am

    A barge doesn't have the equipment for testing a missiles.

    The missile is angled because it is used only on buk-M3 as of now so they still didn't modify it to use VLS.

    Those tests probably are made to see if the equipment on the ship is enough to use ARH missiles.

    Also it's not dangerous because old version had a single arm launcher which launched missile at the same angle as this one.

    So they will get a 70km ARH missile. It was expected. Nice improvement.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:17 pm

    Pic of Essen from 2016 showing similar angled object on the foredeck
    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 %D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%A0_%22%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D0%AD%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%22
    Remember Essen commissioning was delayed quite a long time?
    There were a bunch of photos showing this angled object on the foredeck & it was later revealed that the commissioning was held up by tests of ARH missile.
    They never actually confirmed that it had passed the last tests, just that the tests were completed, then the ship got commissioned.
    Would seem that they're doing another round of tests.

    George1 likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6199
    Points : 6191
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:56 pm

    The radars on it and weapon systems of shtil launcher are made for the SARH. They can't use the updated radars/computers of buk-M3 directly so they need software changes to use ARH missiles with the older stuff found on the ship.

    That can take some time.

    Good point will be that India will be interested for their own frigates as an upgrade. They have around ten frigates using shtil. That will improve their defence from 45km to 70km which is even better or India because they use single arm launcher with longer launch time as it needs to relaod. The longer they shoot the better they have chance against multiple targets.

    And since they use the bigger and heavier missiles, they can ask for the developement of a 100km range missile.

    That would be a 1 or 2 billion $ contract.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:14 am

    A barge doesn't have the equipment for testing a missiles.

    They have barges especially designed and equipped for testing naval equipment in sea conditions (ie on waves instead of solid ground).

    I didn't mean just any old barge.

    And new ships don't have equipment for testing missiles fired off their decks either...

    The missile is angled because it is used only on buk-M3 as of now so they still didn't modify it to use VLS.

    What on earth would be the point of testing a missile on a brand new ship that that ship can't carry?

    And even if they did want to test it... a test from a metal frame sitting on the deck will tell them what exactly?

    That ship has UKSK launch tubes... which the BUK-M3 would actually fit in to... they would probably need liners or adapters but physically it would fit... there is no point in putting a 76.2mm shell on the deck in its own short tube barrel and firing it for testing before deciding whether to replace the gun with a 76.2mm gun mount... they wouldn't learn anything useful from that either.

    Those tests probably are made to see if the equipment on the ship is enough to use ARH missiles.

    Sitting the ship next to the testing barge so it can use its radars and missile directors to control the missile would make rather more sense would it not?

    A land based BUK battery has Search radars that can be hundreds of metres away from the TEL vehicles...

    Also it's not dangerous because old version had a single arm launcher which launched missile at the same angle as this one.

    A couple of problems there... first it was a different missile... the new one hasn't got the large stabiliser fins and when testing from a launch tube you need to be sure it clears it properly without damaging the missile or tail fins... launching on rails on an arm launch guides the missile as it accelerates... by the time the rear portion of the missile is clear it is already well on its way.
    Arm launchers also have a clear area around them and blast protectors to stop the rocket blast from damaging anything near by... like the door hatches to other missile tubes of vertical launch systems...

    So they will get a 70km ARH missile. It was expected. Nice improvement.

    AFAIK the 11356 has UKSK and Redut launchers... BUK-3 wont fit in Redut unless I am right and LMFS is wrong regarding the missile capacity of the system (if it can fit S-300 and S-400 full sized missiles in the space under each hatch... and therefore fit four S-350 missiles per hatch, then they should be able to carry a BUK-M3 missile under each hatch too... but the 36 tube Shtil launcher is probably a better bet.

    What might be happening is that they are testing it but the missile is resting there out of the way rather than blocking the helicopter pad, so they will sail out to where it will be tested but it wont be launched from there it will be lifted off there onto the barge by crane most likely as they wont launch it from that metal frame with will likely have a vertical launch tube test frame set up for testing.

    This would enable them to use the ships existing and operational systems to launch and guide the missile with the missile being launched from a barge... if it works out well they can then offer the ship for export with BUK instead of Redut, and if they want a future ship upgrade... because I really don't think the BUK-M3 vertical launch system will fit in the space of the Redut one used currently.

    If it works properly the BUK might because an option for Redut or for UKSK launch.

    The radars on it and weapon systems of shtil launcher are made for the SARH. They can't use the updated radars/computers of buk-M3 directly so they need software changes to use ARH missiles with the older stuff found on the ship.

    That can take some time.

    Surely the problem would be going the other way.... a system designed to find targets and launch missiles to fly to a location close to them is something a SARH system can already do... and instead of illuminating the target for the attack it can look for the next target while monitoring the engagement to see if it needs to fire again at the same target...

    Good point will be that India will be interested for their own frigates as an upgrade. They have around ten frigates using shtil. That will improve their defence from 45km to 70km which is even better or India because they use single arm launcher with longer launch time as it needs to relaod. The longer they shoot the better they have chance against multiple targets.

    Also a failure to launch is also an issue with an arm launcher, whereas with bin vertical launch tubes open the next hatch and woosh...

    Vertical cell launchers are also much more compact and allow more missiles to be carried... I seem to remember the single arm launcher on the Sovs had 24 missiles each... I suspect the vertical launcher is rather more compact and takes up less space and has 36 ready to launch missiles each.

    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:59 am

    AFAIK the 11356 has UKSK and Redut launchers
    Shtil is navalised Buk, 11356 has a different VLS (3S90M) than Redut, comes in 12 cell units.

    Buk-M3 uses the 9М317М missile
    Shtil-1 uses the 9M317M missile
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:39 pm

    Redut is a 12 cell system isn't it?

    And I am fully aware Shtil and BUK are related... Smile
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:03 am

    Redut on 20380 is 3* 4-cell modules, on 22350 its 4* 8-cell modules, on 20385 2* 8-cell.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25937
    Points : 26483
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:02 pm

    According to Roscosmos the number of Redut launch tubes is from 8 to 96 per ship... they use the 3S-97.2FE honeycomb launcher...

    Sponsored content

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 33 Empty Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:22 am