No one have said Frigates are not useful. even a patrol boat can be useful ,if you had some knowledge in tactics you will understand.
Aren't you the one saying Russia should not have a navy and should just make hypersonic bombers instead...
All im saying is that those Grigorovich will be very limited frigates in their use for purely defensive mode. cannot fight back an Airfoce..
They can't shoot down meteors either... which is also not their job...
and Gorshkov frigate can. NATO do not have such limitations ,even if their frigates are inferior because they have aircraft carriers always
helping in the defense.
The Gorshkov cannot always fight off an air force, and NATO frigates don't always operate with carrier support.
easy to understand but but you insist on arguments just for the sake of arguments. to make it look
you have a point. when you not.
Frigates will never be able to defeat enemy air forces... they might be able to defend themselves but any airforce will change tactics after 30% are shot down.
The point is
gorshkov frigates can allow the Russian Navy to fight back an Airforce and allow more flexibility to the Russian Navy how to deploy
their warships and the Grigorovish can only defend.
And what you seem to not know or ignore is that no frigate around the world would be used to defeat an enemy powers air force so that country can be invaded. The Grigorovich can perform 98% of all the missions the Gorshkov can perform and do it rather more cheaply. When I say 2% of jobs can't be done odds are those 2% of jobs will never need doing by a Russian navy vessel... so the performance difference is meaningless.
Because they have very few and most not prepared to Fight back against an attacking Air-force..
What attacking air force? Why would Russian Frigates be operating outside the range of land based friendly fighters?
Russia have only 1 kirov cruiser and 1 aircraft carrier that can help defend their warships against a long range Sniping Airforce that can launch their missiles beyond 100km ranges.
Only the US Navy has the budget to afford the thousands of missiles needed to reliably defeat a group of Russian navy ships... which are all very well protected from anti ship missiles... supersonic and subsonic.
If the US Navy initiated an attack on Russian Navy vessels the result would be irrelevant as it will be ICBMs and SLBMs deciding the result... which will always be both sides lose so neither side will start.
An effective air defense needs to have the capability to be the one to Fire first and not allow the possibility to any enemy airforce to even try. The best defense is offense and giving a chance to your enemy to keep trying is a mistake.. thats why.. next question?
Read and understand the MAD principle... it makes offense the worst option as it gets both sides killed.
Russia needs warships NOW not in 2020 or more.
Not long ago you claimed they didn't need a Navy and could use the money saved making a hypersonic bomber.
Those BUks SAMS defenses were NEVER intended to be used alone.. you need long range Sams to keep away any airforce.
There are plenty of western vessels that don't even have a SAM as powerful as Shtil-1.
The land version have a big network of trucks with Radars ,Command Center and other stuff ,that i don't see how they are going to fit it on the Stealth Frigate.. specially the Nebo radars. You need more than one Radar for different kind of targets . and as you know stealth Frigate cannot have a lot of surface outside the boat or there will be no point for them to be stealth. The info have seen only points to the 9m96d missiles with 120k range. which will be not bad against old antiship missiles but not good enough for F-35 300km anti-missiles.
The new MARS AESA array being developed for S-400/S-500 has a range of about 2,500km... would that be good enough?
The Sigma battle management system being fitted to all Russian vessels includes datalinks to all platforms and satellites and land based sensors and under sea based sensors... what were you saying about a Russian Frigate on its own?
all those missiles outrange S-300F of the Kirov.
Assuming they are still able to get a radar lock on their target... an old frigate might have a rcs of 200m and be detectable from 400km, but a modern stealthy frigate might not be that easy to find...
In Falklands war A-4 skyhawks were attacking British warships with GRAVITY BOMBS and still managed to get away most of the time.
Not ships in the open ocean... they came in from the land side of ships that had moved close to shore either to provide naval gun fire support or to land forces.
If the British had fixed wing carrier based AWACS the result would have been rather different with far fewer ships lost.
Of course if the Argentines had prepared properly and, say bought Mig-23s with BVR missiles then the result might have been even more different.
The Grigorovich is a well balanced Frigate that will be very useful, and i expect more orders will be placed.
It is the frigate equivalent of the Mistral... available proven design that is ready for fairly rapid production with the bugs ironed out and a vast step up from existing vessels which do need replacing.