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Isos
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PapaDragon
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27 posters

    Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers?

    Poll

    Do you think russia should start designing a replacement for the Kirov class?

    [ 21 ]
    Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 7 Bar_left78%Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 7 Bar_right [78%] 
    [ 6 ]
    Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 7 Bar_left22%Should Russia build new Aircraft Carriers and Battlecruisers? - Page 7 Bar_right [22%] 

    Total Votes: 27
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:07 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    LMFS wrote:

    The construction of the destroyer "Leader" and the aircraft carrier may be delayed until 2035


    What a joke

    Same as the alledged cancellation of the Su-57. A joke

    Why don't they scrap instead some of those super-duper nuclear-powered missiles and underwater drones and other expensive mallarcy useful only for deterrence.
    Hardware such as next-gen fighters and destroyers on the other hand are things that our armed forces actually need.

    Dude, you didn't really believe that they will be building carriers any time soon? They can't even get frigates up and running. When was last time they started building one?

    Su-57 will be coming online soon but these other paper projects are pure fantasy.

    They need frigates infinitely more than they need some fictional nuclear superwhatnots...
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:53 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:What a joke

    Same as the alledged cancellation of the Su-57. A joke

    Why don't they scrap instead some of those super-duper nuclear-powered missiles and underwater drones and other expensive mallarcy useful only for deterrence.
    Hardware such as next-gen fighters and destroyers on the other hand are things that our armed forces actually need.

    I'll be frank, i think the delay is more to do with incompetent (if not compromised) shipyards, rather than lack of funds.

    Remembering the new:

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5344390

    I would not talk about incompetent shipyards. The reason for this new can be more in the pressure of the shipyards that can not be able to get the contracts to build the first units of the Project 23560 and of the new aircraft carrier (likely of the Project 23000). It is more about the interests of the rest of shipyards.

    Big ships require important investment focused only in a few big shipyards, and the rest of the shipyards are not interested in these investments. They prefer orders of other ships in order to enjoy themselves of part of the investment.

    It is not rare to see this view included in the first edition of "the Draft Strategy for the Development of the Shipbuilding Industry for the period up to 2035 by the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation".

    In the other side, for the Ministry of Defense, and even for the Presidency, the building of these ships has an strategic value, not only by the service of the new big ships, also related to achieve full capability of production for every type of combat ships, something very important for Russia today.

    It is not difficult to see which view will prevail.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 am

    As I was expecting, & in spite of earlier pronouncements, the start of possible construction of Leader & CVN is likely to be moved well to more distant future, ~15 years to be more exact, see the dates in bold print:
    "With regard to military shipbuilding, it is expected to postpone the commencement of R & D [research and development work] and serial purchases for a number of prospective ships and vessels for the period after 2025 due to the substantial sequestration of budgetary allocations for defense, as well as the complete refusal to purchase a number of large surface ships (a prospective destroyer, a marine aircraft carrier complex, the IAC) until 2035, "the document says.
    .. Prospective ships
    Earlier, Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy for armament Viktor Bursuk said that work on the construction of a prospective destroyer "Leader" for the Navy could begin in 2020.
    The project of the destroyer under the code "Leader" is being developed at the Northern Design Bureau in St. Petersburg. Igor Ponomarev, vice-president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) for military shipbuilding, clarified earlier, the Russian Defense Ministry has already agreed on the outline design of the ship. It was reported that the displacement of the future destroyer could range from 10 to 15 thousand tons. According to Bursuk, "Leader" will receive a nuclear power plant.
    In turn, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, Alexei Rakhmanov, reported that Russian shipbuilders are designing a prospective aircraft carrier in an initiative, but there is still no contract for it. Earlier, the TASS source reported that the USC before the end of 2018 will submit for consideration to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation a few finalized drafts of a new domestic aircraft carrier. In case of a positive decision on one of the options, development work on the ship can begin in 2019.
    ..As previously stated in the Navy, the Russian fleet expects to receive a prospective aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030, the displacement of the new aircraft carrier should not be less than 70 thousand tons.
    Krylov State Research Center previously developed and presented to the general public an aircraft carrier design for foreign customers, which was also offered for the domestic fleet. Project 23000 was named "Storm". The sketch assumes that the ship will have a displacement of 80-90 thousand tons, it will be equipped with a combined power plant (both an atomic reactor and a gas turbine engine) [as I also predicted], the air group of the ship must number up to 60 aircraft.
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5344390
    So, what else is new?
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:09 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    LMFS wrote:

    The construction of the destroyer "Leader" and the aircraft carrier may be delayed until 2035



    What a joke

    Same as the alledged cancellation of the Su-57. A joke

    Why don't they scrap instead some of those super-duper nuclear-powered missiles and underwater drones and other expensive mallarcy useful only for deterrence.
    Hardware such as next-gen fighters and destroyers on the other hand are things that our armed forces actually need.

    Why would Russia engage in conventional war with NATO? This enables NATO's one and only advantage over Russia: numbers of
    men and equipment and manufacturing capacity. That is simply suicidal.

    Russia already has a doctrine that it will use nuclear weapons to remove NATO's conventional advantage. Nuclear weapons are
    vastly cheaper than fleets of ships, tanks and other conventional war resources. Escalation to strategic nuclear weapons use
    is a 100% certainty. So it is best to focus on hypersonic warheads and interceptors than on buying junk that will rust and become
    obsolete over a short period of time.

    Nobody on this board has demonstrated any actual deficiency with Russia's military revamping. All the yelping about not enough
    ships is some sort of pro-NATO BS agenda. Nuclear powered cruise missiles and Mach 10 anti-ship missiles are where it is at
    and Russia is delivering.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:35 am

    We don't even know what is happening exactly. They never said they cancelled Su-57, so python, don't exaggerate. It's that it was one opinion that it isn't needed.

    As said, they need advance newer planes, exactly 700 fighters total. They are doing just that while slowly introducing Su-57.

    For ships, they are developing quite a few missile boats. Plans are for frigates too. Outside of those, it's in the air. TBH, big ships are not really necessary anymore for Russia.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:22 am

    Hole wrote:Nuclear war is the only hope for NATO. Conventional they are not superior. Supposeldy the got more than 3 million man, but they had Problems to field there 30.000 men "spear head". Production capacity? Who will pay for more production? The western oligarchs want money first, before they do anything, a war wouldn´t change that.

    1) During conventional wars, western economies adopt command economy regimes. Just as during WWII, the taxpayers
    will pay for it.

    2) I can't believe anyone thinks that Russia could field more production capacity than NATO. This is nonsensical. Germany
    was out resourced by its enemies.

    3) The USA doubled its GDP during WWII. The US elite thinks it can pull the same stunt today with a conventional war on
    Russia in Europe. While the Old World burns, Yankee dipsh*ts expect to be all warm, comfy and safe on their island continent.

    4) Russian military doctrine clearly states that tactical nukes will be used to counteract NATO's conventional advantage.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:49 am

    kvs wrote:
    Hole wrote:Nuclear war is the only hope for NATO. Conventional they are not superior. Supposeldy the got more than 3 million man, but they had Problems to field there 30.000 men "spear head". Production capacity? Who will pay for more production? The western oligarchs want money first, before they do anything, a war wouldn´t change that.

    1) During conventional wars, western economies adopt command economy regimes.   Just as during WWII, the taxpayers
    will pay for it.

    2) I can't believe anyone thinks that Russia could field more production capacity than NATO.   This is nonsensical.   Germany
    was out resourced by its enemies.

    3) The USA doubled its GDP during WWII.   The US elite thinks it can pull the same stunt today with a conventional war on
    Russia in Europe.   While the Old World burns, Yankee dipsh*ts expect to be all warm, comfy and safe on their island continent.

    4) Russian military doctrine clearly states that tactical nukes will be used to counteract NATO's conventional advantage.

    The most probable scenario is a quick gain of lands by russia over the eastern nato countries and use of tacrical nuks to stop the war and destroy one or two carrier.

    Naato lacks capacities to defend the east 24/7.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:19 am

    NATO is no defense organisation. Its purely for attack against 3. world countries.
    No western country is able to go to a "wartime" production. Not possible. In my time at the german army (90´s) we discussed this a lot. The government would have to make the decision to call all reservists in to the army, which would take month. The working force would loose hundreds of thousands of the best skilled workers. The companies would revolt. Western companies are all multi-national. There is no "national identity" left in the management class.

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