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    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Zivo
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    Post  Zivo Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:48 pm

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 33 E5bd23f68a49

    Side panorama, and backup cameras.
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    Post  AJ-47 Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:34 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    cracker wrote:what's the armament of boomerang? turret looks small. KPVT ?

    I believe than Epoha turets are ultimatively meant for APC version of Bumerang, Kruganets and Armata. I think that we have yet to see IFV version of those three Very Happy
    btw - Soviet red flags looks epic !

    I think that the APCs for the entire 3 families have the 14.5 mm gun, and the IFVs have the 30mm gun.
    I believe that later in time, and mabee it will take 5 years, the IFVs will have the 57mm gun, and the APCs will have the 45mm gun.
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:08 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Acheron wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Since RTD has been working with Russia since 2011 on the Atom program and we have a Boomerang that has striking similarities with both the VBCI and the AMV from Patria. Given the Patria/Rosomak was never a factor.

    Since we have Igor Sevastianov saying in the middle of june that the Atom was ongoing. And since the final product has one similarity too many to be simple coincidence.

    The day the Boomerang will be open to laymen eyes, the ergonomics will betray the RTD origins. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as the Russian MOD finds everything it needs on the Boomerang.

    Alternatively, the Russians could have simply created a vehicle that is externally similar to VBCI because, let's face it, all of the contemporary 8x8 AFVs that fulfill the same purpose (VBCI, Patria, Boxer, Pandur, Freccia, etc...) tend to look like clones of each other from a superficial outside perspective. We won't really know for certain until the full specifications and the interior components of Boomerang are fully disclosed for comparison with its foreign compatriots (or until someone on the design team will confirm it).


    I agree in full and subscribe to your assessment that form will follow function. However, as I said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we were to learn that indeed there is RTD DNA within Boomerang. And again, this isn't a jab at the Russian MIC, quite the contrary. The project looks solid and exceptionally well finished, especially when compared with the Chinese VN-1/ZDBL range.

    Plus check the production shots from NExter and compare the cutouts with the Russian Boomerang.

    Looking like a parallelogram on wheels does not mean it has "RTD DNA within Boomerang" and neither that is was developed in the same time window of Atom also signifies RTD input.

    KoTeMoRe wrote:And again, this isn't a jab at the Russian MIC, quite the contrary.

    Implying that Frenchies had a hand in developing anything is always an insult, no matter how you intend it.



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    Post  cracker Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:15 am

    what's the "bolts" or rivets things, are they... bolts or rivets? Very Happy

    So, the armour seems solid: at least a very good base hull (aluminium or steel?) + a total coverage of this quite thick (looks like 5-6cm) panels, probably composed of glass fiber, plastics, or ceramics, sandwitched in high hardness steel? What's to be expected, like imune to 12.7 AP everywhere, and to 30mm APDS frontally? And there is probably a good spall liner inside as well





    45mm for the APC variant seems too much work, it's probably almost as big as the 57mm... I think 30mm is fine for APC.
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:24 am

    The most widespread assumption is that the 30mm will be replaced with a 45mm gun
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    Post  TR1 Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:31 am

    https://i.imgur.com/odADS4d.jpg

    Turn up the contrast on this one- good detail behind the wheels.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:49 am

    2SPOOKY4U wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Acheron wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Since RTD has been working with Russia since 2011 on the Atom program and we have a Boomerang that has striking similarities with both the VBCI and the AMV from Patria. Given the Patria/Rosomak was never a factor.

    Since we have Igor Sevastianov saying in the middle of june that the Atom was ongoing. And since the final product has one similarity too many to be simple coincidence.

    The day the Boomerang will be open to laymen eyes, the ergonomics will betray the RTD origins. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as the Russian MOD finds everything it needs on the Boomerang.

    Alternatively, the Russians could have simply created a vehicle that is externally similar to VBCI because, let's face it, all of the contemporary 8x8 AFVs that fulfill the same purpose (VBCI, Patria, Boxer, Pandur, Freccia, etc...) tend to look like clones of each other from a superficial outside perspective. We won't really know for certain until the full specifications and the interior components of Boomerang are fully disclosed for comparison with its foreign compatriots (or until someone on the design team will confirm it).


    I agree in full and subscribe to your assessment that form will follow function. However, as I said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we were to learn that indeed there is RTD DNA within Boomerang. And again, this isn't a jab at the Russian MIC, quite the contrary. The project looks solid and exceptionally well finished, especially when compared with the Chinese VN-1/ZDBL range.

    Plus check the production shots from NExter and compare the cutouts with the Russian Boomerang.

    Looking like a parallelogram on wheels does not mean it has "RTD DNA within Boomerang" and neither that is was developed in the same time window of Atom also signifies RTD input.

    KoTeMoRe wrote:And again, this isn't a jab at the Russian MIC, quite the contrary.

    Implying that Frenchies had a hand in developing anything is always an insult, no matter how you intend it.




    Sigh...whatever. I hope you're right.
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    Post  TR1 Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:51 am

    KoTeMoRe, how dare you suggest Russia borrows from anyone ever Wink .


    On a similar silly note:

    http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/April-22th-Alabino/i-Ft3LwXt/0/O/2015AlabinoFirst-02.jpg
    http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/April-22th-Alabino/i-WsPW5X3/0/O/2015AlabinoFirst-04.jpg

    Funny how the welding on the splash plate on different Kurganets versions looks worlds apart. The IFV one looks pretty shitty honestly.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:56 am

    Hehe Osobist on MP.net made also a stingy observation on the Armata Led's. It was russian alright because one was nicked.

    Yeah well as I said, I hope the Boomerang is 100% local...

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    Post  EKS Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:12 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hehe Osobist on MP.net made also a stingy observation on the Armata Led's. It was russian alright because one was nicked.

    Yeah well as I said, I hope the Boomerang is 100% local...


    Boomerang can't be anything but local. Although, From a strategic point of view. But i agree that Some features, from a design point of view, look a bit Like some western models, but it's only the shape. The important systems are russian tech.
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:17 am

    EKS wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hehe Osobist on MP.net made also a stingy observation on the Armata Led's. It was russian alright because one was nicked.

    Yeah well as I said, I hope the Boomerang is 100% local...


    Boomerang can't be anything but local. Although, From a strategic point of view. But i agree that Some features, from a design point of view, look a bit Like some western models, but it's only the shape. The important systems are russian tech.

    So now russia relies on western countries to use a form/shape of the chassis Laughing
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:20 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    EKS wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hehe Osobist on MP.net made also a stingy observation on the Armata Led's. It was russian alright because one was nicked.

    Yeah well as I said, I hope the Boomerang is 100% local...


    Boomerang can't be anything but local. Although, From a strategic point of view. But i agree that Some features, from a design point of view, look a bit Like some western models, but it's only the shape. The important systems are russian tech.

    So now russia relies on western countries to use a form/shape of the chassis Laughing

    I posted the rolling train of the VBCI, which so far is breaking from the Boomerang pattern. But hey, only coincidences.
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    Post  Brovich Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:48 am

    Just created the Kurganets-25 Wikipedia page. THIS

    Feel free to add sourced info.
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:28 am

    TR1 wrote:https://i.imgur.com/odADS4d.jpg

    Turn up the contrast on this one- good detail behind the wheels.

    Another thing...."Belshina" tyres - Belorussian http://www.belshinajsc.by/
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    Post  Regular Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:38 am

    Nice catch man. I noticed that Russian army was using western tires a lot, nice to see Belarussians are having their slice.
    Ok, I've seen someone claiming that Armata is a copy of AMX Leclerc, so is it safe to assume that Kurganets is a copy of AMX-10P and Bumerang is VBCI.. And Putin is a copy of Napoleon.
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:46 am

    Regular wrote:Nice catch man. I noticed that Russian army was using western tires a lot, nice to see Belarussians are having their slice.

    Thanks. There was talk that it was going to use Michelin tyres not long ago...


    Brovich wrote:Just created the Kurganets-25 Wikipedia page. THIS

    Feel free to add sourced info.

    Good start...needs expanding
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    Post  Zivo Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:33 am

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 33 0_130350_bce94125_orig

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 33 3939113

    So, is the consensus that this is "Stardard" APS? And were the hell are the Kords at?
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    Post  Brovich Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:51 am

    Just created another Wikipedia article on the Epoch turret. THIS

    Again, feel free to expand with sourced info.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:07 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Thanks. There was talk that it was going to use Michelin tyres not long ago...

    As I recall Michelin tyres are made in Russia too
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:01 am

    Regular wrote:Nice catch man. I noticed that Russian army was using western tires a lot, nice to see Belarussians are having their slice.
    Ok, I've seen someone claiming that Armata is a copy of AMX Leclerc, so is it safe to assume that Kurganets is a copy of AMX-10P and Bumerang is VBCI.. And Putin is a copy of Napoleon.

    Nothing to do with copies. It has to do with a couple choices. The VBCI will reach 32 tons and countnting, it was never thought with flloatability in mind and the engine choice reflects different needs from Russia (Even the BTR 90 had better HP/Ton ratio) so it was NEVER in demand as it is. Russia, however probably chose a proven drivetrain, Renault having enough assets in Russia to facilitate "dual purpose" technologies and design.

    The fact that the early T90's had been offerred Thales BMS and thermal sights along also means integration of that BMS with Russian components. There are enough bits of information there that point to a significant departure from Soviet practices in C2, C3.

    The fact you ridicule the idea that various elements of the VBCI might have been the basis for Boomerang is worrying. Because the VBCI IS arguably the better thought Western "BTR" out there.
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    Post  Cyberspec Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:59 am

    Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if the Boomerang has some French influence but we don't know that atm.

    Some info on the Boomerang  


    Boomerang is larger compared to the BTR-80, and most importantly - has a different layout. You may notice that the combat unit moved closer to the rear of the machine. Obviously, the engine moved to the front of the armored car, and it has a rear ramp"- said military expert Ilya Kramnik.

    "Boomerang" - is not only an APC, it is a universal wheeled platform of middle weight category, created by LLC "Military-Industrial Company". In accordance with the tactical and technical requirements of the Ministry of Defence, it will be equipped with different combat modules that will perform the task of air defense, Anti Tank, Recon, evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield.

    According to information from public sources, the latest Russian armored vehicle has undergone several incarnations before there was this vehicle that participates in the Victory Parade rehearsal. Initially, the project was called not "Boomerang" but "Gilza".

    According to some reports, the project planned to use the maximum components of the BTR-90 Rostok. The Russian military abandoned the BTR-90, (according to one version) because it did not meet modern requirements. The project "Gilza" involved the installation of the engine in the middle of the vehicle, and the combat module would partially unify the weapons that are used on the BTR-82. It was also planned to install a lightweight APS.

    The existence of Boomerang was first acknowledged in Oct 2010

    The need to create a new armored personnel carriers, arose primarily due to lower mine-protection of previous models.

    The old Soviet APCs have low mine protection, and it was impossible to raise the anti-mine protection sufficiently via modernization of older models. A new model was required. "Boomerang" protection level will be much higher. This is ensured by special shape of the bottom, the internal layout and in particular, suspension crew seats to the ceiling, "- said Ilya Kramnik.


    There was also the need to increase the internal volume of the machine. "Soviet APCs are cramped inside. The average size of today's soldiers is bigger compared to the 1950/60's and flak jackets and vests were not widely used. It's a global trend of increasing armored personnel carriers and here we are just catching up".


    According to unconfirmed information, officially, the new APC has a chance to become an armored vehicle equipped with active protection systems (KAZ). If these reports are correct, in terms of security "Boomerang" will be a leader among the wheeled armored personnel carriers, having protection against tank attack.


    So far, very little is known about the combat unit of the new machine, in rehearsals in Alabino it is disguised. However, experts say there may be set a different set of weapons, depending on the tasks: machine gun mount for internal troops or remote module with a larger caliber weapons. It is known that on the basis of "Boomerang" is planned, even the creation of self-propelled artillery.



    According to information from public sources, one of the possible weapon systems can be developed by JSC "Instrument Design Bureau" (CPP) in Tula combat module "Boomerang-BM" with a 30-mm gun with 500 rounds of ammunition, firing range of up to 4000 m, machine gun , automatic grenade launcher and "Kornet" missiles. Automatic fire control system module allows you to search purposes in different spectral bands using an optical locator to find camouflaged targets.

    The Machines in Alabino are BTR version reportedly armed only with 12,7mm MG module.

    Military experts believe that BTR "Boomerang" is equipped with modern control, reconnaissance and navigation equipment, including a single system of tactical control (ESU TK). The system provides the unit commander complete picture - the position of each machine during the battle, as well as data on the nature of their equipment damage.

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/analytics/novye-razrabotki-/effekt-bumeranga-novyy-rossiyskiy-btr-otrazit-dazhe-tankovuyu-ataku/


    Zivo wrote:Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 33 3939113

    So, is the consensus that this is "Stardard" APS? And were the hell are the Kords at?

    Possibly the only armament on the APC version....strange decission dunno
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:09 pm

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 33 Vkmfo3k
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:45 pm

    To be honest, even the most heavily armoured wheeled IFV (and its crew) is going to have a very bad day if engaged with anything more serious than a KPVT.

    Well the Typhoon will likely be 14.5mm ammo proof from all angles... the 25 ton class boomerang and kurganets should be 30mm proof at least from the front... the 18 ton BMP-3 already is...

    Add to that that the biggest threat to IFVs on the battlefield are RPGs and a decent APS would make them much safer.

    Hence, unless someone is actually going to release a wheeled IFV which integrates non-passive armouring options seen on current and prospective MBTs, I am going to treat the protection levels of such vehicles with suspicion, no matter whether they are BTR, VBCI, Boxer or Boomerang.

    The Kurganets is heavier and better protected than a BMP-3, and the Boomerang has similar protection to the Kurganets...


    what's the armament of boomerang? turret looks small. KPVT ?

    Boomerang is a vehicle family... it is possible the APC version might have a KPVT, but I suspect the 30mm turret that doesn't penetrate the hull is more likely.

    I think that the APCs for the entire 3 families have the 14.5 mm gun, and the IFVs have the 30mm gun.

    Unlikely. We have seen the 30mm turret and it doesn't penetrate into the hull... there would be no advantage to going to a 14.5mm weapon as it would not allow more troops to be carried, and besides an IFV needs a main gun that can defeat similar vehicles... that requires a 57 or 45mm gun and hull penetration which means reduced troop capacity.

    I believe that later in time, and mabee it will take 5 years, the IFVs will have the 57mm gun, and the APCs will have the 45mm gun.

    Very unlikely they would adopt two guns for the same role... not a good idea logistically.

    Note there are a wide range of vehicles in each unit, so a 50 cal turret might be for use on a range of vehicles including Tigrs, or light command vehicles.
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Well the Typhoon will likely be 14.5mm ammo proof from all angles... the 25 ton class boomerang and kurganets should be 30mm proof at least from the front... the 18 ton BMP-3 already is...

    The Kurganetz 25 is already safe from front and side against 30mm API rounds, the applique armor is based on NII Stali development which they have used for BMD3 and BMP2/3 upgrades.

    Here video of protection with NERA/ERA tiles against 30x165mm AP-I rounds, not detonating ERA but stoping bullets with NERA plates inside.

    From 4:55



    GarryB wrote:
    Add to that that the biggest threat to IFVs on the battlefield are RPGs and a decent APS would make them much safer.

    I just hope they will get ERA aswell, APS will not work always and ERA is very important.


    GarryB wrote:
    The Kurganets is heavier and better protected than a BMP-3, and the Boomerang has similar protection to the Kurganets...

    Not so sure about Boomerang protection being similiar to Kurganets.
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    Post  George1 Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:25 am

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 33 2015AlabinoFirst-11

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