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76 posters

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    avatar
    Rpg type 7v


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:42 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!

    egypt and some others got upgraded s-125s ,thats a better value for money.

    Jesus Christ.
    Pantsir and S-125 are in no way compatible. In function, in role, in capability.

    You know what is funny? More nations bought Pantsir than the Pechora S-125 upgrade.
    they are if we start comparing in prices ,and you get more out of Neva then overpriced pantcir you got that right. Embarassed
    What nations? Laughing
    avatar
    Rpg type 7v


    Posts : 374
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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:43 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    I will quote this again for our friend.

    Look at that range and ballistic quality!

    Much better than Gepard and earlier too!

    Omg! ZSU-57 also, Gepard was a crappy copy of it ;(

    zsu-57 is a failed project and got whitdrawn unlike some other types of shorad . clown
    besides they all lack mobility of gepard Wink

    Most German Gepard's are withdrawn.

    Guess they are failures.
    gepards are 40 yrs old man ,its about time and normal that they are replaced with something more modern welcome
    TR1
    TR1


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 11:47 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!

    egypt and some others got upgraded s-125s ,thats a better value for money.

    Jesus Christ.
    Pantsir and S-125 are in no way compatible. In function, in role, in capability.

    You know what is funny? More nations bought Pantsir than the Pechora S-125 upgrade.
    they are if we start comparing in prices ,and you get more out of Neva then overpriced pantcir you got that right. Embarassed
    What nations? Laughing
    1.) You have evidence that you get more out of Neva? Will you finally produce evidence that Pantsir is overpriced?
    No? More empty statements?
    2.) Russia, Syria, UAE, Algeria, Brazil, Iraq, potentially Jordan and Venezuela.
    That enough for you? Pechora has done far worse. I woooonder why (even though the comparison is at best assinine, they are very different systems, even though Pechora is crap in just about eveyr parameter compared to Pantsir).
    avatar
    Rpg type 7v


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Rpg type 7v Thu May 09, 2013 11:51 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!

    egypt and some others got upgraded s-125s ,thats a better value for money.

    Jesus Christ.
    Pantsir and S-125 are in no way compatible. In function, in role, in capability.

    You know what is funny? More nations bought Pantsir than the Pechora S-125 upgrade.
    they are if we start comparing in prices ,and you get more out of Neva then overpriced pantcir you got that right. Embarassed
    What nations? Laughing
    1.) You have evidence that you get more out of Neva? Will you finally produce evidence that Pantsir is overpriced?
    No? More empty statements?
    2.) Russia, Syria, UAE, Algeria, Brazil, Iraq, potentially Jordan and Venezuela.
    That enough for you? Pechora has done far worse. I woooonder why (even though the comparison is at best assinine, they are very different systems, even though Pechora is crap in just about eveyr parameter compared to Pantsir).
    I did make some calculations earlier you have to go read my posts not just foam when you see something you not like...
    Brazil?? so russia ,syria and UAE ,just 3 countries ?
    algire ,lybia ,syria ,belarus ,got petchora-m etc...
    petchora the f-117 and f-16 killer is crap -the same radio command guidance but with much more powerful missile , this is a new hit Laughing and it got f-15 in lybia
    TR1
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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 Fri May 10, 2013 12:05 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    You were categorically wrong in every other sense.
    Good job man!
    i was right about everything ,you just wait a little Wink

    Yeah, I will wait while more rich customers buy the Pantsir.

    If only they knew the truth!

    egypt and some others got upgraded s-125s ,thats a better value for money.

    Jesus Christ.
    Pantsir and S-125 are in no way compatible. In function, in role, in capability.

    You know what is funny? More nations bought Pantsir than the Pechora S-125 upgrade.
    they are if we start comparing in prices ,and you get more out of Neva then overpriced pantcir you got that right. Embarassed
    What nations? Laughing
    1.) You have evidence that you get more out of Neva? Will you finally produce evidence that Pantsir is overpriced?
    No? More empty statements?
    2.) Russia, Syria, UAE, Algeria, Brazil, Iraq, potentially Jordan and Venezuela.
    That enough for you? Pechora has done far worse. I woooonder why (even though the comparison is at best assinine, they are very different systems, even though Pechora is crap in just about eveyr parameter compared to Pantsir).
    I did make some calculations earlier you have to go read my posts not just foam when you see something you not like...
    Brazil?? so russia ,syria and UAE ,just 3 countries ?
    algire ,lybia ,syria ,belarus ,got petchora-m etc...
    petchora the f-117 and f-16 killer is crap -the same radio command guidance but with much more powerful missile , this is a new hit Laughing and it got f-15 in lybia

    1.) Please post em again. I see nothing but silly conjecture, one that ignores reality.
    2.) Let me help you count. Brazil, Russia, UAE, Syria, Algeria, Iraq. These are confirmed orders, with several more very likely.
    Your Pechora-M list has some question marks. Note generally the Pantsir is bought by those who can afford something good. Why? Because it is an excellent system.
    Pechora missile is huge compared to Pantsir, of course it has a few advantages - warhead, range. But Pantsir has massive advantages over Perchora- do you really need help figuring out what they are?
    Either way Pechora is outdated, bare bones solution. Comparing it to a cutting edge SHORAD like Pantsir is dumb.
    Viktor
    Viktor


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor Fri May 10, 2013 12:27 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:1. if you intend to fly around with F-35 looking for some Pancir-S1 than I guess F-35 will be dead before it finds anything

    Nope , by definition ,air defence must have its search radars on to be effective and f-35 will be hard to detect for pantsyr.

    No its does not. Big fail for you.

    Information about the target will come to Pancir-S1, in the most cases and well in advance, from command posts like

    Ranzir/Castelania/Bernaul/etc and the radar system directly attached to it or from higher echelon command post (Radar and ASU ones).

    When target enters engagement envelope of Pancir-S1 it can turn on its radar and fire missiles at it.

    This is the case under which Pancir-S1 will perform most of the time anywhere. It will be connected in integrated air defense

    network. I really dont understand why do you persistently insist on one Pancir-S1 scenario when thats the least possible option to

    happen. Let me ask you something.

    Do you know the reason why integrated air defense solutions where developed?

    Why do you expect any SAM system to work outside integrated air defense network.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:2. same triangulation method can be used to find F-35 and at point when F-35 enters Pancir-S1 engagement envelope give order to shoot it down. This is no problem.

    how will pantsyr triangulate an f-35 please? this is nonsense.

    With the introduction of S-400 system in the Russian army even a 55K6 regimental command post can operate directly with passive

    radar systems like Orion-Vega. When F-35 lights up his radar system it will shine like torch in the night. Information about it will

    be passed out to Pancir-S1 command post and when it enters engagement envelope, Pancir-S1 will open fire.

    More to it few Pancir-S1 can lay quiet for instance 10 miles away from the Pancir-S1 that will have its search radar turned on.

    When F-35 goes for the kill, information about it can be passed on to the Pancir-S1 in ambush so they can open fire on an

    unaware F-35. There are really huge range of different options.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:3. F-35 has really small internal weapon bay where it does not carry no where near enough weaponry to penetrate even a single Pancir-S1. Its missiles/bombs would get shoot down and than F-35 itself.

    Is this a joke, i has 2 big bays for a-g weapons 3 per bay to saturate pantsyr.
    It depends on the crew of pantcir if the missiles will be destroyed ,but f-35 itself is untouchable unless its pilot is idiot and blunders completely ,it will have full power of aiming radar on him because its stealth and its hard to track so it will have some time to maneuver and get out of its kill zone 15-18km.


    Nope its not a joke. It can carry some glide bombs like JDAM or JSOW or Paveway and that only one per bay in two bays.

    Thats it. No more not less. So there is nothing much to fear. If F-35 wants to carry formidable array of weapons it will lose its

    stealth. Besides we still dont know why are you debating F-35 vs Pancir-S1. Please answer this question as F-35 is not nearly finished

    and has jet to overcome bumpy ride until is done.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:4. Pancir-S1 can use natural hideout or camouflage nets to conceal its presence and work in passive mode or even on active

    Its very limited in passive mode very narrow vision and imported thermal system whis is not even near the best in the world ,if it goes active its bye bye ...

    Interesting that you fail to mention that big fail of yours about Pancir-S1 not being able to guide missiles on targets without

    the use of only its optics. Well you seems to forget mistakes of yours quite easily. Dont you find that interesting.

    Anyway Pancir-S1 has wide range of options beside using its own radar that will give it an idea of where to look for the

    targets. So it can remain in passive mode and fire missiles at targets without them being alerted by Pancir-S1 presence.




    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:5. F-35 can catch false decoy radar emissions and fall in the Pancir-S1 trap
    Its an option ,it could also spend all its missiles on towed decoys of f-35...

    If F-35 loads up with MALD it will loose its stealth or space that could be used to carry bombs etc. So its a win win situation for

    Pancir-S1. Still because Pancir-S1 can work in a passive mode but still receive information about the situation in the air space

    F-35 pilot will have no idea when to fire MALD but by the time he realizes that his plane is being tracked it may already be to late

    for him and eject can be the only safe option as F-35 is not the most fastest or most maneuverable plane out there.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Like with everything else.
    Its not easy for me to debate vs 5 non-objective guys .

    Yes, you are the one who defined situation where quality of Pancir-S1 depends only of its ability to stand up all by itself to a

    200 million $ fighter that does not exist jet, So much about objectivity. Still you persistently avoid to put Pancir-S1 in a

    situation for which it is intended to. But we are the ones bein non-objective. Besides arguing with the 5 guys should tell you

    something about objectivity by itself.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Provide links where it says it is lacking or flawed or even overpriced.
    I have proved my point. There is the report on the very first page of this topic

    But that has been widely discussed. You never even mentioned the first page until now - so there is no need to dig up graves.

    You on the other hand mentioned all the other reasons but that. Reasons which are always non-objective and sometimes false same as

    most of the ones on the first page.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:And what is PANCIR-S1 today?
    -Nothing special ,still a work in progress...

    Well you are right up to a point. Pancir-S1 as all the rest weapons in the world is work is progress.

    Still even in todays configuration it is the best and cheapest short range SAM in the world.

    If you look at the Pancir-S1 delivered for Algeria you will notice a new radar on it. It is perhaps AESA and perhaps not - we dont

    know jet but things will change in time and development will never end. Thing is that no other country in the world

    can field such capability is what is important specially when working within Russian integrated air defense network.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What needs improving?
    Jesus i repeat myself over and over , fire & forget capability /

    1. Pancir-S1 does not need fire and forget missiles (I explained why)

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What needs improving?
    hiting targets that try to hide bellow horizon

    2. Did you checked its range? Big fail! Another one.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What needs improving?
    lower price

    3. And is jet the cheapest one out there even now. Compare the prices of similar existing system and their amount until they reach

    Pancir-S1 capability. You will find out that Pancir-S1 is by far the cheapest one out there as well as the rest of Russian equipment.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What needs improving?
    aesa constant search of all sectors in lpi mode

    4. It may already have AESA radar - we are not sure. Either way lpi or not lpi Russia has range of AESA radar systems that

    will always be connected to Pancir-S1 command post. So you dont need to worry. Everything is fine.




    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What needs improving?
    aim & guiding capability in all direction simultaniously

    Well that would be nice capability to have indeed but we will have to wait for it a bit longer. No one possesses such

    capability at the moment. Still when it comes to firing in all directions simultaneously Russia

    is No1 in comparison with the rest.



    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:What needs improving?
    ,better guns....etc.

    No it does not. Guns are just fine.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:-No radar is needed to fire missiles with optical guidance channel. Even a version of Pancir-S1 with single optical channel was made. Now you did not know that?
    It does have to have send radio commands towards the missile and wide field of view so the missile will catch its signals so it will have wide lobes ,signal can be weak as the missile is near and get narrower and stronger the further its away but beam is in the direction of the target so it will be detectable...

    But it does not need to have its search or shooting radar on and you said it does. Laughing Big fail.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:Optical system can trace just 1 missile towards 1 target.

    True but all the other system of such class can even with the use of its radar systems guide their missiles to only one target.

    Pancir-S1 can guide 4x as many Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy . Imagine the numbers needed to achieve such supremacy in repelling saturation attacks.

    Only one battery of Pancir-S1 can simultaneously fire at 24 targets Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 34znad2

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:That point is something vastly beyond your understanding. The primary mission of Pancir-S1 is to work with other air defense assets
    and with radar coverage and aviation form a protective layer of air defense systems.
    That includes vast amounts of different systems all working together under control of command post.
    If you need to spend that much money on patcyr you wont have much left for other air defence SAMs

    You are worried about the money but you have no problem placing 15 million $ Pancir-S1 against 200 million F-35

    and you refuse to compare the prices of Pancir-S1 and the Patriot missile system LINK. Well you need money to buy anything. This price argument is the biggest fail of yours
    even more than other false things you mentioned earlier. Nothing is cheap nowadays but still Russian equipment when it comes to
    capability/price ratio is the best out there.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 1zejfpk


    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Of course ability to work alone, to repel areal attacks and ground even and to shoot multiple missiles at multiple targets and to make nightmares to any western planes planing to invade a country armed with the Pancir-S1 is just one of its many pluses.
    You sound like you work in the advertisement department showing off all the strong points but hiding the weak..

    Nope, you are totally wrong as usual. Im well aware about the things that would need improving about Pancir-S1 but the ones you are

    mentioning have nothing to do with reality.


    Rpg type 7v wrote:Missile is quite simple ,it is very fast no doubt but has its limitations.
    Huge booster means large internal dead zone ,no sustainer , so second stage flies in a balistic path and has limited maneuvering capability with together its small finns-canarads.

    Agree. There are things that needs to improve but same situation can be applied to any weapon system in the world no matter the

    country and the system, dont you agree. Still no matter things that will/should improve Pancir-S1 missiles are still by far most

    dangerous in their class as well as the system as a whole. So while its further development will surely continue, Pancir-S1

    will despite all retain its crown as the best air defense in its class and the cheapest one too.

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:Also few more things , pantcir missiles drop in speed on average 70m/s/s ,
    Nope, you are wrong as usual - its 40m/sec
    Im right, deceleration like acceleration is measured in meters per second squared m/s*s in time units , or m/sec during certain distance traveled.
    besides its booster can accelerate it 1,3km /s for horizontal shot or 1,2 km/s for near vertical shot ,so it can vary also.

    Deceleration is on average 40m/s per km, so it will be higher early on during its flight maybe 60 m/s per km. at 10km away that can be 500 m/s deceleration. Also the reason garry cant calculate right is because during booster cut-off the missile is already 1,2-1,5 km away so the speed of the second stage only then starts to drop.

    even in garrys link they say - short ballistic delay during no-booster flight (40 m/s for 1 km of track)


    You said average was 70 m/s per kilometer and I said it was 40 m/s per kilometer.

    So I was right and you where wrong. So another big fail for you.



    Rpg type 7v wrote: dunno
    Viktor wrote:So we are here talking about by far the most capable air defense system in the world and the cheapest one too.

    So yes, we are here talking about the best and cheapest air defense system in its class.
    TR1
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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  TR1 Fri May 10, 2013 1:23 am

    TO summarize, he wants a bunch of either impractical or hugely expensive solutions....to make it more cost-effective?

    Contradictions galore.
    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB Fri May 10, 2013 12:25 pm

    gepard is the father of tunguska its obvious just by looking at it ,and in configuration -aim radar on center+ 2 gunns on the sides + search radar on the top and rear -so almost everything, but the russians added some missiles which is typical for their thinking.

    My grandfather had two eyes at the front of his head... it helped him to see objects and the spacing gave him the depth perception to judge distances, he had two ears that allowed him to hear and judge the direction sounds were coming to him from, they were on the side of his head.

    Do you have two eyes? Do you have two ears... you must be my uncle... my grandfathers son.

    The Gepard was a poor equivalent of the ZSU-23-4 that in an attempt to outrange helicopter launched missiles went too large a calibre to actually be effective. If it had ever gone to war it would likely have been very good for morale, but little else.

    but although older gepard has much better gunns!!! of
    35mm caliber and 1,4km/s projectile speed.

    Speed is irrelevant against small fast moving targets unless it can change course mid flight. Shotguns fire lots and lots of small pellets in a cluster, it is the cluster of projectiles that allow for any last minute manouvers the target might perform between when the weapon is fired and the pellets impact the target area.

    pantcir has 30mm caliber and projectile speed <1km/s which is a huge difference and a big minus for tunguska and pantcir that is a big difference in flight time and accuracy!!

    Flight time is irrelevant, and accuracy is actually counter productive. You don't want all your shells hitting the targets bulls eye... because when the target moves all the shells that are headed for where that target was going to be would be totally wasted because it is not going to be there anymore when the shells arrive. A good spread of shells ensures that any manouver by the target still results in the chance for a hit.

    so the russians eventually copied german design !

    That is your opinion. They had a requirement to replace an existing vehicle with a vehicle that used more powerful guns. They could have gone for a 57mm gun armed system with even greater range, but realised that guns are not efficient at long range and that guns and missiles compliment each other, so fitting big guns made less sense, though effective range could be doubled simply by replacing the 23 x 152mm guns of the Shilka, with the new 30 x 165mm round adopted by the BMP-2 and other platforms.
    For a short period they thought the OSA might replace the Shilka, but found there are many targets where guns are just better so they continued with the Tunguska, which turned out to be the best Self propelled air defence vehicle of the period, and even today is one of the best.

    Nope , by definition ,air defence must have its search radars on to be effective and f-35 will be hard to detect for pantsyr.

    They can operate with their radar on... what is the F-35 going to do to them? Fire off its entire payload of two ARMs and then fly home empty knowing both missiles were probably shot down.

    how will pantsyr triangulate an f-35 please? this is nonsense.

    Even domestic F-35s will be stealthy only from the front... please tell us how an F-35 can fly in enemy airspace and keep its nose pointed at all the enemy radars at once?

    Is this a joke, i has 2 big bays for a-g weapons 3 per bay to saturate pantsyr.

    So a total of 6 weapons... even a Single Pantsir could defeat 6 weapons coming from one aircraft...

    Its very limited in passive mode very narrow vision and imported thermal system whis is not even near the best in the world ,if it goes active its bye bye ...

    Perhaps you have not heard of a zoom lense. It allows optics to scan large areas at once and then zoom in on potential targets...

    If it goes active it will have a lot of weapons to defend itself against, but will not go bye bye... in fact it could wait till another vehicle has spotted an F-35 flying above it and then turn on its own radar... if the F-35 opens fire, then that pretty much confirms it hostile and the system sitting below it can open fire immediately and take out the aircraft.

    The effective range and likely sensor range of F-35 can be calculated and Pantsir-S1 vehicles could be driven to built up areas below where an F-35 might launch an attack from in ambush.

    Its an option ,it could also spend all its missiles on towed decoys of f-35...

    The advantage of a command guided missile is that the operator can look at a zoomed in image of the target slaved to the radar track and he could override the lock on a towed decoy so that the missile hits the plane in front... the pilot would not know which the missile is hitting till his plane is impacted.

    With a fire and forget missile the ground unit would have no idea what they locked till impact.

    Jesus i repeat myself over and over , fire & forget capability / hiting targets that try to hide bellow horizon , lower price , aesa constant search of all sectors in lpi mode / aim & guiding capability in all direction simultaniously ,better guns....etc.

    Fire and Forget means MUCH more expensive to buy and to actually use.
    AESA radar means MUCH more expensive.
    No reason why PESA could not operate in LPI mode.
    The use of 6 vehicles in a battery with a datalink means it already can operate in all directions simultaneously.

    The only better guns possible would be a 45mm or 57mm gun with guided shells.

    It does have to have send radio commands towards the missile and wide field of view so the missile will catch its signals so it will have wide lobes ,signal can be weak as the missile is near and get narrower and stronger the further its away but beam is in the direction of the target so it will be detectable...

    Rubbish. The Search radar is scanning for new targets while the tracking radar is tracking BOTH the engaged target AND the outgoing missile. The datalink is a very narrow beam.

    Plus who cares if the target detects the datalink beam? To jam it properly they need to get between the missile and the launcher...

    If you need to spend that much money on patcyr you wont have much left for other air defence SAMs

    The Russians are spending a small fortune on their military... why wouldn't they spend a little more to defend it?

    Its an inferior gun as i have prooved , 1,2 km iz a large internal dead zone that is a circle of 2,4km, diameter ,they better be good.

    The guns are effective to 4km and easily cover that 1.2km radius circle. The pathetic 20mm round used by Phalanx is actually most effective within 1.2km so I would expect the 30mm to be even more effective within a radius of double that.

    First you say:
    Im right,
    from a quote where you say average decelleration is 70m/s/s, then you say
    Deceleration is on average 40m/s per km, so it will be higher early on during its flight maybe 60 m/s per km.

    So if it is higher earlier on, then for it to be average then it must be much lower later on... right?

    A missile travelling at 1.3km/s after 2.4 seconds of flight that is still travelling at 700m/s at 18km is very very impressive without a sustainer rocket motor, which makes me suspect they might have a gas generator to reduce drag (like a base bleed system in a long range artillery shell).

    osa is not a gun but a light missile platform ,and not tracked, by the way its archaic radio clos system is today in use with pantsyr

    You just don't get it do you?

    Why is TOW and HOT and Milan archaic CLOS guidance?

    You probably think Javelin is the best ATGM in the world despite all the enormous compromises its guidance choice have been made.

    Its sophisticated datalink technology means it can be cheap and easy to use and able to be bought in enormous numbers and still be very effective while NATO wonders if it can afford fire and forget systems that are only superior on paper.

    You were right about one thing, the sustainer.

    Easy enough mistake to make when the KBP website describes the missile as the sustainer stage:

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Untitl10

    zsu-57 is a failed project and got whitdrawn unlike some other types of shorad . clown
    besides they all lack mobility of gepard

    Gepard is a failed project that never shot down a real plane in anger and is withdrawn. Razz



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    Post  Zivo Sat May 11, 2013 1:26 pm

    Have they shown a Pantsir with nakidka yet?
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    Post  TR1 Sat May 11, 2013 11:44 pm

    Moving on from this futile discussion, any news on 23Ya6 missile?
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    Post  TR1 Sat May 18, 2013 10:00 pm

    Less unintelligible blabbing, more news:

    http://www.balancer.ru/sites/w/w/www.kbptula.ru/images/stories/kbp/news/2013/018.jpg
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Sun May 19, 2013 5:01 pm

    medo wrote:

    Only TLAR system up to now is Tor. All others are either TEL or TELAR.
    Ok what is pantcir then?
    medo wrote:
    And you want to teach me the meaning of TEL, TELAR and TLAR? AR in the end mean AND RADAR. TELAR means Transporter, Erector, Launcher And Radar.
    S-300 is TEL, because it have to erect missiles in vertical position to launch them, but have radar on separate vehicle. Same go for the systems you mention. Because they have separated radar, they are stationary system, not mobile.
    Ok.
    I should have said S-300V Very Happy

    medo wrote:
    For now they ordered 100 Pantsirs and will be more of them later. Production for RuAF for now is limited because of many foreign orders with UAE as primary customer, because it pay for development. Even Tor-M2 for now is ordered in smaller numbers. Is it bad system? No, they just order them in smaller batches.
    Link please.
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    Post  Viktor Tue May 21, 2013 2:56 pm

    Well unlike out RPG friend, PVO General Victor Gumen is perfectly happy with Pancir-S1 confirming its

    marketed specification while shooting down targets at its maximum range while on testing at Ashuluk.

    Firings ZRPK "Shell-C" last night at the site Ashuluk


    Calculations showed high skills and abilities to conduct combat operations in the difficult conditions. All the assigned targets destroyed at maximum distance. ZRPK "Shell-S" has once again proved its high efficiency and reliability.


    MOSCOW, November 23 - RIA Novosti. Martial firing anti-aircraft missile and gun complex "Shell-C" were held at the Ashuluk range (Astrakhan region) in the framework of educational and methodical gathering of senior anti-aircraft missile troops of the Air Force, led by the Chief of Air Force SMP Major General Victor Gumen, the official said the administration press service of the Defense Ministry and the information on the Air Force, Lieutenant-Colonel Vladimir Deryabin.

    "In Ashuluk range (Astrakhan region) in training and methodical collection management team defense missile troops of the Air Force, led by the chief of SMP Air Force Maj. Gen. Victor Gumen initial firings were held anti-aircraft missile and gun complex" C-Shell " - said Derjabin.

    According to him, one of the crews of anti-aircraft missile regiments of the Eastern Military District received from JSC "PCU" six armored ZRPK "Shell-C" supplied as part of the state defense order, and successfully produced a live firing at air and ground targets using a rocket and cannon armament.


    "Fighting fire produced at night by air targets simulating drones and high-precision weapons," - said the colonel.

    He noted that during the shooting technique was perfected receiving ZRPK "Shell-C" of the industry and of the initial firings, as well as methods of loading missiles and cannon armament.

    "Calculations showed high skills and abilities to conduct combat operations in the difficult conditions. All designated target destroyed at maximum distance. ZRPK" Shell-S "has once again proved its high efficiency and reliability, and the crews of the Eastern Military District - a willingness to use it in various conditions, "- said Derjabin.

    Earlier it was reported that on Friday night was held in the procedure for transfer of the combat units of the Eastern Military District Air Defense Battalion of the six anti-aircraft missile and gun systems "Shell-C."



    LINK
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Tue May 21, 2013 3:27 pm

    Viktor wrote:Well unlike out RPG friend, PVO General Victor Gumen is perfectly happy with Pancir-S1 confirming its

    marketed specification while shooting down targets at its maximum range while on testing at Ashuluk.

    Firings ZRPK "Shell-C" last night at the site Ashuluk


    Calculations showed high skills and abilities to conduct combat operations in the difficult conditions. All the assigned targets destroyed at maximum distance. ZRPK "Shell-S" has once again proved its high efficiency and reliability.


    MOSCOW, November 23 - RIA Novosti. Martial firing anti-aircraft missile and gun complex "Shell-C" were held at the Ashuluk range (Astrakhan region) in the framework of educational and methodical gathering of senior anti-aircraft missile troops of the Air Force, led by the Chief of Air Force SMP Major General Victor Gumen, the official said the administration press service of the Defense Ministry and the information on the Air Force, Lieutenant-Colonel Vladimir Deryabin.

    "In Ashuluk range (Astrakhan region) in training and methodical collection management team defense missile troops of the Air Force, led by the chief of SMP Air Force Maj. Gen. Victor Gumen initial firings were held anti-aircraft missile and gun complex" C-Shell " - said Derjabin.

    According to him, one of the crews of anti-aircraft missile regiments of the Eastern Military District received from JSC "PCU" six armored ZRPK "Shell-C" supplied as part of the state defense order, and successfully produced a live firing at air and ground targets using a rocket and cannon armament.


    "Fighting fire produced at night by air targets simulating drones and high-precision weapons," - said the colonel.

    He noted that during the shooting technique was perfected receiving ZRPK "Shell-C" of the industry and of the initial firings, as well as methods of loading missiles and cannon armament.

    "Calculations showed high skills and abilities to conduct combat operations in the difficult conditions. All designated target destroyed at maximum distance. ZRPK" Shell-S "has once again proved its high efficiency and reliability, and the crews of the Eastern Military District - a willingness to use it in various conditions, "- said Derjabin.

    Earlier it was reported that on Friday night was held in the procedure for transfer of the combat units of the Eastern Military District Air Defense Battalion of the six anti-aircraft missile and gun systems "Shell-C."



    LINK

    Hii viktor ,sorry for not answering to your posts its hard to keep track of everyone.
    But i didnt find out any details about exercise , nore videos ,what were the targets? and their speeds? and course?...
    Generals say many things. In Russia you have many crazy and chestbeating generals.
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    Post  Viktor Tue May 21, 2013 4:01 pm

    Pancir-S1 is truly the best short range air defense system. It is not as capable as TOR-M1/2 at shooting down maneuverable targets but

    covers higher altitude and range than TOR and performers much batter under heavy ECM. Together they form the impregnable defenses for

    saturation attacks. Both TOR and Pancir-S1 will receive more funds for further upgrades and modernizations. Both are competing

    for the same market in the world. Media attacks on each other are frequent and brutal for those reasons and the only one who can truly

    tell the difference is the Russian Army. Thats why you have so much testing going on for year after year with ever increasing ECM and

    new harder to hit targets being applied coupled with constant Pancir-S1/Tor-M1 improvements. Thats why I dont think it is fair of you to

    try to discredit Russian PVO General.

    Who are you to tell that KBP Tula is lying that Russian General is lying? Pancir-S1 has been entrusted to protect S-400 system which

    will form the basis of the Russian PVO. No one will lie there and only hard results under severe testing can earn Pancir-S1 such

    reputation and position. Thats why it is selling in the world like there is no tomorrow and each of those buyers are conducting their

    own testing confirming Russian army testing results and marketed producers specifications.

    Algeria: 38

    Brasil: 24

    Iraq: 42-50

    Russia: 100

    Syria: 36-50

    UAE: 50 + 28

    ---------------------------
    All in all: 254 - 340 fire units

    and you have Venezuela and India as most likely buyers with many more to come.

    So you are saying that all others are stupid and all those states that has bought Pancir-S1 have stupid engineers and military officers.

    Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Last edited by Viktor on Tue May 21, 2013 4:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  TR1 Tue May 21, 2013 10:12 pm

    http://lenta.ru/news/2013/05/21/target/

    Cool- on the base of the Pantsir, a target-drone launcher is being created.
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    Post  Viktor Wed May 22, 2013 4:17 am

    Tor-MU (delivered last year) and Pancir-S1 together at Kapustin Yar shooting ground with the task to shoot down 50 maneuverable targets

    in heavy ECM environment. Nice.

    When after conduction such tests PVO General says that Pancir-S1 performed efficiency and reliability destroying all

    targets in difficult ECM conditions and at maximum distance out RPG friend here will just disregard the whole thing by calling PVO

    General a liar. How lovely.


    In May, at the Kapustin Yar calculations AAMS "Tor-MU" and ZRPK "Armour-S" will hit about 50 air targets


    TSAMTO, May 21. At the end of May at the Kapustin Yar with staff air defense forces of the Southern Military District will be conducted live firing of air defense missile systems "Tor-MU" and ZRPK "Armour-S", the press service of the Southern Military District.


    The latest air defense troops entered service in SOUTH late 2012 - early 2013. within the framework of the state defense order.


    For the development of new weapons officers and soldiers, gunners for 3.5 months have been trained at the Training Center Air Defense Forces in the Krasnodar region, where studied the performance characteristics, basic maintenance and operational use of new weapons.


    AAMS "Tor-MU" to detect and track up to a few tens of aerial targets at ranges up to 30 km and hit 4 targets simultaneously at a height of 10 km.


    "Armour-S" on a number of parameters exceeds the foreign analogues. His military capabilities enable highly efficient fight with both existing and prospective facilities with an air attack.


    In total, the doctrine attracted about 10 air defense systems. Martial calculations in a complex traffic situation in conducting electronic warfare will conduct reconnaissance aerial targets reflect tactical air strikes, destroy drones and precision-guided weapons submunitions imaginary enemy.


    Total estimated AAMS "Tor-MU" and ZRPK "Armour-S" will hit about 50 air targets that are maneuvering to simulate single and multiple air targets in conditions of interference, said the press service of the Southern Military District.


    LINK
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Wed May 22, 2013 10:11 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    The SA_22 missile is unified with the HERMES missile... the latter will come in a version with 100km flight range... presumably with a more powerful booster motor, of course the Pantsir-S1 is for defending larger SAMs like S-400 or Vityaz so extra range will make it more expensive without improving its ability to do its job...


    There will be problem ,it has missiles mounted on top of the truck and a rotating turret , you cant just put bigger and heavier booster there ,it would effect Cg , rotating speed , gunns accuracy , you cant interchange missiles like s-300 systems or Vytaz...

    That truck and turret is already at its limits it would be very hard to change Pantcir loadout with other missiles ,some new storage and launch metod is needed.

    Most of the variants of Pantsir' (of an extremely wide range of variants, some unveiled and some not) are already set up to launch missiles with both the 170 mm diameter boosters and the 210 mm diameter boosters. This can clearly be seen by paying attention to the spacing between the missile canister mounting fixtures.

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    Post  Karria Thu May 23, 2013 1:25 pm

    Sorry but is this a Pantsir-S1 system? It is taken in Vietnam. What's radar far away in picture? Thanks you russia
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Pantsir-s1_1369306785
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    Post  Viktor Thu May 23, 2013 2:47 pm

    Karria wrote:Sorry but is this a Pantsir-S1 system? It is taken in Vietnam. What's radar far away in picture? Thanks you russia
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Pantsir-s1_1369306785

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 33yp920


    Certainly looks like it. If I remember correctly it was TR1 who posted SIPRI report that Vietnam bought Pancir-S1.

    Have you any more pictures of it?





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    Post  Karria Thu May 23, 2013 3:59 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Karria wrote:Sorry but is this a Pantsir-S1 system? It is taken in Vietnam. What's radar far away in picture? Thanks you russia

    Certainly looks like it. If I remember correctly it was TR1 who posted SIPRI report that Vietnam bought Pancir-S1.

    Have you any more pictures of it?

    No sorry dunno . That Sipri's report and this picture is from the same guy in VN millitary forum. However, I doubt that he edited the Sipri's report (Arm deal in 2012 as S300, Panstir,Buk and Yak-130) cause I found nothing on Sipri's website. Do you have any source about them in Russia? Thanks you I love you

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    Post  medo Thu May 23, 2013 6:11 pm

    Karria wrote:Sorry but is this a Pantsir-S1 system? It is taken in Vietnam. What's radar far away in picture? Thanks you russia
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Pantsir-s1_1369306785

    Yes, it is a Pantsir and the radar covered with net is Low Blow tracking radar for SAM-3.
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 23, 2013 8:38 pm

    Karria wrote:Sorry but is this a Pantsir-S1 system? It is taken in Vietnam. What's radar far away in picture? Thanks you russia
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Pantsir-s1_1369306785

    Great find.
    Chalk another export for the Pantsir.
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    Post  Viktor Fri May 24, 2013 3:46 am

    Karria wrote:No sorry dunno . That Sipri's report and this picture is from the same guy in VN millitary forum. However, I doubt that he edited the Sipri's report (Arm deal in 2012 as S300, Panstir,Buk and Yak-130) cause I found nothing on Sipri's website. Do you have any source about them in Russia? Thanks you I love you

    Here it is. However It seems that SIPRI has removed this chart from its pages I check it out too.

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 13 Hrdmon
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    Post  medo Fri May 24, 2013 4:32 pm

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201305241341-jebm.htm

    First video from exercise in Kapustin Yar wit both Tor-M2 and Pantsir.

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