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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:56 am

    Exactly... even if it doesn't track the enemy stealth aircraft at all, it can indicate the presence of enemy stealth aircraft including UCAVS, and I am sure it will have many other functions they might work out for it for direction finding... the size of the AESA modules means it should be able to transmit and receive on a very wide range band of frequencies...
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    Post  Rpg type 7v Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:06 pm

    all options considered were ;
    1 seat ,2 seat
    engine with circular nozzle ,squaretip nozzle .
    L-band aesa ,no L-band.
    lots of combinations there.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:28 am

    [all options considered were ;
    1 seat ,2 seat
    engine with circular nozzle ,squaretip nozzle .
    L-band aesa ,no L-band.
    lots of combinations there.

    Hardly anything really... only the 1 seat/2seat question would require any changes to the aircraft design worth a damn... the other two could be added on as optional extras if required later on.

    The L band radar are fitted to the wing leading edge and take up space otherwise used for fuel or forward looking sensors or nothing.

    Regarding engine nozzles... they can be changed fairly easily... the engines are not that close together and angled slightly outwards anyway so whichever arrangement they pick shouldn't be a problem.
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    Post  Austin Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:02 pm

    Press conference of "Saturn"

    http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2013/07/15/259336.html

    On the engine for the PAK FA

    Asked by reporters on the engine for a prospective fifth-generation fighter being developed by the program "promising aviation complex tactical aircraft" (PAK FA), I.Fedorov noted that work is being done extremely well under the leadership of chief designer STC them. Arkhip Cradles Eugene Marchukova. Design Bureau NPO "Saturn", headed by chief designer Yuri Shmotinym, did a great job on the new gas generator engine characteristics have turned out much better than expected by the customer. Now comes the final configuration of the motor and coordination with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. Dry questions on placing the engine on the aircraft. President of JSC "UAC" Mikhail Pogosyan puts a condition that the engine installed in the aircraft without any change in the support (now at T-50 or PAK FA fighter jet engines are installed ed. "117" before the new engine). Installing the engine of the second stage will dramatically increase the speed of the aircraft, as the increase traction and acceleration, in addition, the engine will be easier.

    It should be noted that one of the conditions for the developer fighter is the price of a new engine - it should not be higher than the price of the engine, "ed. 117", which is set today, and this demand will be met and maintained. The engine in the production of the most cost-effective when it is released in large series, as it is today, for example, the engine AL-31 FP / FN in Moscow "Salute" and Ufa MPO. Today, there is confidence that even at half of the series, which now is, the production of the new engine will be cost-effective. Now an estimated price corresponds to the engine "izd.117."
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    Post  Y2J Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:44 pm

    5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost

    NEW DELHI: India's biggest defence project in the making, the critical joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, has flown into some rough weather.

    Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. "It's very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal," said a source.

    This contract was to be inked in 2012 as per the then revised timeline after completion of the preliminary design contract (PD C) phase. India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.

    The plan till last year was that India would begin inducting the FGFA from 2022 onwards, with IAF test pilots getting three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for trials at the Hindustan Aeronautics manufacturing facility at Ozar.

    "The timeframes will now have to be revised. MoD has established a committee of specialists and finance officials to verify the rise in costs. An internal contract negotiation committee is also in progress," said the source.

    But India remains firm about rejecting the US offer for joining its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II' programme. "A lot of money and time has been invested in the FGFA with Russia. India simply cannot afford two FGFAs, both financially as well as logistically" he said.

    The 18-month PDC worth $295 million for the FGFA with Russia was inked in December 2010, under which Indian designers and scientists have even been stationed in Russia to work out the blueprints and documentation for the fighter.

    Though the Indian "perspective multi-role fighter" will be based on the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA, which now has four prototypes flying, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements. IAF had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters but will go for only single-cockpit jets now to reduce costs as well as protect stealth features.

    The final design contract now being negotiated was pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia sharing $5.5 billion each towards the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. Each fighter was to cost over $100 million.

    IAF is quite confident the T-50 will meet its future requirements. Apart from ultra-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the FGFA will carry its weapons inside the fuselage to lower its radar signature. With a cruising speed of Mach 1.7 to 1.8, it has both long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities.

    IAF is currently making do with just 34 fighter squadrons (each has 14 to 18 jets) despite needing at least 44 to keep both Pakistan and China at bay. It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:25 am

    There has been a lot in regards to hate towards FGFA program from India, and it is no secret that organizations within India is payed by others (not pointing fingers) to protest such procurements. Actually, there are western backed organizations who get people to protest the opening of nuclear power plant in South India that is developed by Russia. There is very little word on regarding about funding for FGFA, and since FGFA is a two seater variant using some other components from other countries on board, India is getting away quite easily with its development as Russia footed most of the bill, while F-35 is once again, prolonged to 2019 as there are development issues (yet again) and cost overruns of unprecidented proportions

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323873904578573502455715108.html

    That being said, there were issues regarding Su-30MKI, with its Thales/Israeli avionics and the FBW components not working well together. This could very well be the cost overruns in trying to make sure that it would work well. But apparently, PAK FA is not showing any signs of cost overruns, so why FGFA? I think there is something else in the background going on.
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:58 am

    That article has no specifics, only "sources" predicting problems.

    Pass.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:39 am

    TR1 wrote:That article has no specifics, only "sources" predicting problems.

    Pass.

    Which one? Mine or what Y2J stated?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:45 am

    Let me repeat two quotes from the one article...

    India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.

    and
    It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.

    Lets look at those numbers again... 35 billion for 200 Russian and Indian 5th gen fighters, almost 20 billion for 126 French 4th gen fighters, and 12 billion for 270 joint developed Russian Indian 4th gen fighters.

    I think one foreign country is screwing India and I also think they are not wearing a FRENCH letter (ie Condom).

    Local production is always more expensive but the price of 126 Rafales is theft. Nice aircraft but no Su-30MKI+, and certainly no PAK FA.
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:That article has no specifics, only "sources" predicting problems.

    Pass.

    Which one?  Mine or what Y2J stated?

    The one above yours.
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:52 am

    Garry:

    The French prices are pretty absurd.
    Look no further than the Mirage 2000 upgrade: something like 2 billion USD for sub 50 airframes.

    No clue why India is even bothering with such a price hike, they have a handful of better options.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:01 pm

    The General Perception in India and even among MOD is Russian prices are cheaper but they screw in Spares and Support and they get delayed always.

    American system are expensive ( very expensive ) so goes for France but they deliver on time and spares/support is available even though its expensive.

    The only way Russian system look ahead is charge as much as US and French do or slightly lower but provide on time service and charge more for spare/support but provide it on time/quality.

    We got C-17 at almost ~ $450 million per aircraft but US started deliveries of it.

    I think Russia will end up loosing on this front in long run is they think India will buy because its cheap , We can afford to pay more atleast the Governement thinks so but we need quality and on time.

    Ofcourse neither US not France provides as much TOT as Russia does so no need for Russian to oblige either as it does not make much difference.
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:05 pm

    The Supply problems should dissipate basically as new aircraft are built.

    Legacy birds suffered from collapse of USSR, and pit the country was in. Plus, components had to be sourced from over the place, a complete mess.
    I don't see such an occurrence with PAK-FA, or other new projects.

    C-17 has a huge production line that was just churning out birds for the USAF.
    In Russia on the other hand most lines stalled and were without work for a number of years post USSR (with exceptions like Mi-8 ).

    Another trend is Russian weapons will get more expensive with time.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:12 pm

    Surprisingly I havent heard much complain as I hear from India on Russian Weapons and Equipment , may be because we are the largest users of it.

    Or it could be that there is something to it. Back during FSU days Russia perceived friendly nation where nothing could go wrong and now it is a case of every thing could go wrong.

    I believe slowly but surely India will buy more US equipment over Russian ones.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:15 pm

    Most contracts did not have anything to do with spare parts.  Apparently, all contracts afterwards were for spare parts, and Russia was caught unprepared.  Apparently, new contracts made, also account for spare parts as well to be delievered on time.  India did not go much for spare parts as they relied on their own.
     
    As well, MiG-29K's were on target, same with Su-30MKI's.  Apparently it is only the aircraft carrier that isn't.  Talwar at first faced issues but as orderes increased, so did production quality.

    Austin wrote:Surprisingly I havent heard much complain as I hear from India on Russian Weapons and Equipment , may be because we are the largest users of it.

    Or it could be that there is something to it. Back during FSU days Russia perceived friendly nation where nothing could go wrong and now it is a case of every thing could go wrong.

    I believe slowly but surely India will buy more US equipment over Russian ones.

    I hope your government is prepared to get raped then. USA could very well place embargos (again) on India, as well as they supply your major enemy, Pakistan. Also, not to mention, Russia provides sales for transfer of technology, as well as the ability that your country builds certain amount as well. Your government and its quality control is also to blame, especially for many of the jets built in India. India will face the same issue with American made equipment, no doubt about it. Look at attrition rate of Pakistan equipment, coming from USA. It isn't much better.

    Regardless, I never thought India was a good partner for Russia. If India wants to get screwed with the F-35 deal, then I say all for it.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:17 pm

    It's certainly possible. On the other hand Russia will be in a good position to increase its exports in the next decade as the new equipment for the Armed Forces modernizations enters service.

    One downside is Russia is very likely to reconsider its "special" relationship with India in terms of under-the-table defense transfers, if this happens.
    But, business is business. States have interests, not friendships.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:It's certainly possible. On the other hand Russia will be in a good position to increase its exports in the next decade as the new equipment for the Armed Forces modernizations enters service.

    One downside is Russia is very likely to reconsider its "special" relationship with India in terms of under-the-table defense transfers, if this happens.
    But, business is business. States have interests, not friendships.
     
    Exactly, there was a time recently where Pakistan was interested in Russian military equipment.  At that, Pakistan is a great opportunity for Russian enterprises to exercise in, as Pakistan is a heavily undeveloped country, where certain companies could really thrive (Energy industry, as well as construction).
     
    I think it may be a good idea for Russia to look at its dual investment with India in terms of military equipment.  PAK FA was completely funded by Russia and India is getting off with a dual seat version, and Russia paid for most of it.  If India is not happy with Russian equipment, then maybe it is best for Russia to dump the agreement, let India waste its money elsewhere, and Russia could then sell off the PAK FA and FGFA to whomever they please.  India could very well trade off specific secrets of the equipment and Russia could be in trouble.

    KnAAPO control the development of PAK FA, and any other subcontractor dealing with its components. Since it will be the new aircraft, it will be more than likely have a fully supply chain catered to its needs (spare parts). I am not entirely sure as to whom Irkutsk gets its spares from, but I have not heard a single complaint. Majority of complaints is either slow aquisition of Su-30MKI (which was an issue when it first started back in the late 90's) and MiG-21BIS (old ass aircraft should have been out of commission already, and that is the major military equipment that Indians love to use against Russia in the media).
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    Post  Austin Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:51 pm

    The Indo-Russian defence relationship is such that there is a rule that Russia will not sell defence equipment to Pakistan and Pakistan does not have much money to buy either.

    The only hope for Russia besides India is China and they arnt buying much either.

    I believe what ever happens atleast in the next decade some big deals are in progress or could be signed.

    FGFA ,Indo-Russian MTA , Brahmos-2/Brahmos , 2nd Line of Submarine not sure but something else might come up too.

    I think where Indo Russia truly lack is trade relationship we are just $10 billion in Trade and back then during FSU days our tade numbers were $35 billion.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:54 pm

    Austin wrote:The Indo-Russian defence relationship is such that there is a rule that Russia will not sell defence equipment to Pakistan and Pakistan does not have much money to buy either.

    The only hope for Russia besides India is China and they arnt buying much either.

    I believe what ever happens atleast in the next decade some big deals are in progress or could be signed.

    FGFA ,Indo-Russian MTA , Brahmos-2/Brahmos , 2nd Line of Submarine  not sure but something else might come up too.

    I think where Indo Russia truly lack is trade relationship we are just $10 billion in Trade and back then during FSU days our tade numbers were $35 billion.

    A lot of countries dude, you are not the only one. As you said yourself, sales of Russian equipment to India fell yet Russian military equipment sales have risen. China is one of them, Vietnam, Venezuela, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc etc etc. Pakistan could be on the list. If your government decided to call bail. Wouldn't be too surprised either.

    Don't think that your country is special in any way, cause it is far from it.
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    Post  Austin Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:59 pm

    AFAIK India account for 40 % of Russian military sale or is it 30 % its off my head.

    So it will remain so for a long time to come , Since US and Israel Intel are very active in India and a lot of Indian official are very pro-US because their friends relatives family are settled there or would want to be H1B holder then its bound to get reflected.

    Any ways India and US have lot of friction among them , including the Nuclear Deal where US has some condition where India cannot accept and US support to Pakistan .
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:03 pm

    Well then, that would be classified as corruption anywhere else if interest of politicians is solely based upon by someone outside of the country.  But seeing as how your leader is ruled by a woman whom is from Italy, I am not surprised.
     
    I have a silly suspision, even if FGFA is total working awesome and spare parts came in, that the plane would still end up crashing in Indian air force, and they would still put the blame on Russia.
     
    And no, there are indeed other countries to sell to.  They will take a hit no doubt from not selling to India, but not as much as a hit as you may think.

    On that note though, India banked a lot on FGFA and barely interested in the F-35 due to its shortcommings, so it will acquire FGFA, but who knows exactly the total amount that it will get. As well, sales of helicopters and other equipment very well will also go through. But it would be in Russia's best interest to start looking elsewhere, and there are indeed other countries that could acquire PAK FA (Vietnam, Iraq, Venezuela, Malaysia, Brazil, etc).
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    Post  Austin Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:11 pm

    Well India is a corrupt country and corruption is like a cancer eating into our society , As an India I feel ashamed about this fact and its felt in day to day things we do.

    I dont think Sonia Gandhi is a problem here , She is simply made a scape goat because she is an Italian who married to an Indian and by destiny became what she is .... Its not that before SG India had all things well and under her things went bad.

    In India we have a tendency to blame some one else for our problem and we do not want to take responsibility and get that fixed , Blaming is part of our culture and mindset.

    You can see that in every thing we do including our Polity.

    I am not happy with SG but I think she thinks about the poor no matter how corrupt her party or she is , The Food Security Bill is something good for our country and she was instrumental in getting it done.

    But lets skip this discussion for now as it does not add any value to PAK-FA thread.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:15 pm

    I already did move on.

    FGFA/PAK FA has a lot of potential, in many countries, like in Iraq for instance, or in Venezuela and Vietnam. India said they are to get about 148(?) at first. And like GarryB mentioned, it seems India gets screwed quite a bit from foreigners like France as well, especially in costs. So far, nothing about Rafale deal either.

    Let us hope that with the PAK FA, development of the spare parts will also be acquired and that India inks whatever deal ahead of time for supply of spare parts, or at least become a partner in the development of spare parts to offload issues from domestic Russian enterprises. PAK FA is barely out, and people commenting on FGFA as if they know, is kinda absurd really. And in all of that, it is a wait and see.
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:25 pm

    Austin wrote:The Indo-Russian defence relationship is such that there is a rule that Russia will not sell defence equipment to Pakistan and Pakistan does not have much money to buy either.

    Austin , good points . I will make a few addendums to your's  if you permit  .

    Actualy Pakistan does have Mi 17 helos that are being used for counter insurgency but a significant number ( along with Apaches ) are being placed on the borders with India to blast out Indian T 72 & T 90 battalions .

    India does not have a right to say to Russia do not sell to Pakistan . Russia can if it wants to . The Kremlin realizes that any thing that is remotely hitech if sold to Pakistan will find it's way into China ( if not US) . That's a big deterrent to the sale of hi tech weapons to Pakistan .  You are right . Pakistan does NOT have much money . But they never had that . They will get money from Saudi Arabia or UAE and thereafter make the payment .

    Similarly , India does NOT have to apologize to Russia  if it purchases weapons from a third party . India is not purchasing weapons to fight Russia . But China is  purchasing weapons from Russia to use against India . And so is Pakistan . It makes sense to have a few wild cards up your sleeves if they are from a different vendors .  

    It's essential to remember that the PAK FA is not going to be a silver bullet as many in India are claiming . Maybe against Pakistan but certainly not against China . Once China starts deploying the S 400 in the Tibetan plateau whatever advantages the PAK FA or Super Sukhoi gives India  will simply .... evaporate .

    Moreover, China will never allow Russia or any other country to become a major supplier to Pakistan as Pakistan is it's largest customer and China loans out substantial amount to Pakistan as soft loans so that Pakistan can afford to purchase Chinese hardware.

    Austin wrote:As an India I feel ashamed about this fact and its felt in day to day things we do.

    You don't need to . The LIBOR scam in the UK was worth .... hold your breath $550 TRILLION .

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/09/uk-libor-nyse-idUKBRE9680G420130709

    I am not saying that be corrupt and be proud . Just that we talk about corruption the west doesn't . The entire financial crisis was an invent of the West . That's corruption 101 .

    Austin wrote:The only hope for Russia besides India is China and they arnt buying much either.

    For hi tech weapons that is . China has achieved a self sufficiency in most areas . Plus they have one of the world's most remarkable pool of cyber warriors who have stolen everything from W 89 blueprint to F 35s DASS operational features .

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-29/reports-chinese-hackers-targeted-us/4719352

    Austin wrote:I believe what ever happens atleast in the next decade some big deals are in progress or could be signed.

    Also , the volume of military trade is so huge that even if you and I are to carry on this discussion 50 years from now Russia would still remain a major player in India . According to figures provided on the Russian president’s official website kremlin.ru , India accounted for 27% of Russian weapon sales in 2012-13 making it the largest importer . Between 1965 till date that has by and large been India's position ( either 1 or 2) . That being said , figures don't often tell the whole picture . PAKFA , BRAHMOS 2 , MTA will NOT be treated as a "export to India" no matter into how many billions these figures run .

    Austin wrote:FGFA ,Indo-Russian MTA , Brahmos-2/Brahmos , 2nd Line of Submarine  not sure but something else might come up too.

    Yes . Interesting that no one asks the question why did Russia approach India for these projects ?  It was a win win situation for both countries . With defense being a priority only for Anglo Saxons there are not too many countries that would spend billions on these projects . Then there is Smerch MLRS which started local production in India . Not to forget that Big Daddy of all deals . The $45 billion nuclear deal .

    http://indrus.in/articles/2012/12/26/india_russia_to_embark_on_45_bln_nuclear_energy_roadmap_21291.html

    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-12-26/news/36007954_1_sistema-imperial-energy-glonass

    I will further add that I don't know why other countries have NOT yet joined these projects . That would have had the potential to lower costs .

    Austin wrote:I think where Indo Russia truly lack is trade relationship we are just $10 billion in Trade and back then during FSU days our tade numbers were $35 billion.

    True . That's because some of Russia's major trading partners are those with which it has either a direct border or a land route is possible through CIS . I ' ll wager though that Russia & India are working on connecting an Iranian port to the Caucasus via a rail route .


    Last edited by Sujoy on Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:46 pm; edited 6 times in total
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 38 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:32 pm

    China is good for copying.  Not much else is well known.  Seeing how poor their sales are for aircrafts, I do not hold much in regards to hopes for their new jets.  They may LOOK 5th gen, but are they actually built 5th gen?  But, I don't doubt they could try to simulate things like DASS though.
     
    I think the biggest deal that India and Russia are getting, that isn't military related, is the apparent 18 or so Nuclear power plants that is to be built. Apparently as well, India has a license to built jet engines from Russia and co-development for receivers and access for Glonass.

    But more joint-development between the two countries, as well as bi-lateral cooperation in things like investing in each other and ease of visa's (either for travel or for education wise) may be best in order to help prop up political relationship as well.

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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1 - Page 38 Empty Re: PAK FA, T-50: News #1

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