So you think India are contributing a lot of money... so they can buy whatever the Russians develop for themselves?
Indian money would also go towards establishing production in India, buying Russian components, price per airframe, making whatever indigenous components they want and integrating them...and the rest can just make whatever system the RuAF already specified for the PAK-FA go faster.
To take the Flanker example you think the Indians want a Su-35BM?
Well, it would certainly seem they do (aside from 2 seats) if we look @ the Super-30 modernization!
If the Indians want maximum all round stealth and really don't care about having a very manouverable aircraft flat engine nozzles make a lot of sense.
Flat engine nozzles don't preclude very maneuverable aircraft.
In fact they have said they want more engine power... is that because they expect it lose power with the flat nozzle design?
They said they want more engine power back when they planned for a two seat desighn. Let's read between the lines...the heavier two seater would need more engine power to stay @ required levels of performance. PLUS we can look at it as more power over current PAK-FA. We already know the definitive engine will be more powerfull, and there is no proof the Indians want more power than THAT. Also, there is a big question of will the top engine even be cleared for export.
So. They already have Su-30MKI in service and are upgrading them as we speak. There is no urgency to get the FFGA into service by 2015. Most of the Indian timescales I have seen say at least 2018 or later.
Yes, but 2018 is probably also in line with the time the RuAF will be getting the definitive model.]
Design choices involve penalties and capabilities... the Indians seem to place greater emphasis on stealth than on manouver capabilities, and the Russians seem to be focussing on the reverse.
Is there any explicit proof of that? I see none!
The Mig-21 is a cheap and simple fighter and with a few upgrades could actually be more appealing than early model Mig-29s. The eastern european nations seem to prefer to keep their 21s operational over their 29s.
That is because they are broke, and usually had small fleets of MiG-29s not worth keeping. Also, wasn't it only Roumania that kept its MiG-21s while retiring MiG-29s? Cost is one thing, but performance wise, you could do a light modernization of the MiG-29, and no MIG-21 would approach it.
If the Russian AF demands super small RCS then they will pay for it. The FFGA program is basically an Indian funded program with the Russians, French, and Israelis as subcontractors.
Right, but I see it as basically Indian indigenization to whatever degree achievable of the PAK-FA. I don't think anything fundamentally unique will be fitted to it. The foreign components are not clear as of yet btw, so we don't know how substantial they will be. Russia won't allow the Israelis full access to the PAK-FA for example. I think India will try to stick their equivalents into the plane more than 3rd party stuff.
If they develop some super new dodecahedron shaped engine nozzle that offers 3D thrust vector with a 1% thrust reduction at full deflection that is as stealthy as flat nozzles then I am sure the Russians will look at that technology for their T-50 too.
India's accomplishments so far in aviation are exactly what makes me doubt they will be making any breakthroughs in the FGFA program.
Very simply the FFGA program is like the MKI program... it is Indian driven and funded and the product will be Indian. The Russians will definitely learn something, and might take some things and use them as they are or perhaps might even explore them for different reasons and take them further.
The difference is during the MKI program, RuAF was broke and unable to fund its own advanced Flankers. The PAK-FA is a priority for Russia, well funded and the state of the art as far as Russian combat aviation is concerned. The MKI program helped fund some Russian en devours that yielded fruit for the RuAF later (like Irbis)....I don't think the same can be said of FGFA, which is program contemporary to the PAK-FA, not an advanced variant.
And that is the critical thing... a FFGA with a smaller RCS than the T-50 does not make it more or less advanced. It just makes it different.
True, but that does not change that there is no explicit proof regarding the matter! I would be willing to admit I am wrong if the evidence was there.
Russian hasn't got 1.5 billion taxpayers to fund such things so it has to think about protecting an enormous area with as few toys as possible... and hopefully toys that last as long as possible.
Russia may have less taxpayers, but they are richer tax payers . Plus, just from a defense budget perspective, Russia's will remain larger than India's for the foreseeable future.
To summarize I see a lack of actual evidence that the Indian version will be any stealthier then the RuAF bird.
The Indians have stated that stealth is a higher priority than for Russia.
Where? No actual sources involved in the program have said anything of the kind. There have only been generalities that can be explained as develooping the PAK-FA from what it is today- BUT that would have happened with or without India in the program.