Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28938
    Points : 29466
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:55 am

    Too big and clumsy for use in dogfights or localized post-cold war conflicts, the Foxhound languished while other Russian weapons systems switched to earning their keep through export. Four decades on, the MiG-31 has never fired a shot in anger—or earned the Kremlin a ruble from any foreign sale.

    They have never earned a ruble from TOPOL or any of their ICBMs or SLBMs, but they have a real value beyond any commercial value... they have kept Russian borders safe even during periods of chaos.

    The amusing thing they don't mention is how revolutionary its nose mounted radar was... being electronically scanned it could detect targets all over the place and keep tracking them for engagement with SARH missiles.

    There is a lot of talk in military circles about the F-14 and its Phoenix missiles and how in tests it can launch and shoot down 6 targets at one time, but while the targets are flying at different distances and speeds, you do note that there was only about 600 metres in vertical altitude distance between them... and that is because the radar of the F-14 is mechanically scanned so low flying cruise missiles and high flying Kh-22M missiles could not be engaged at the same time by one F-14. In comparison the MiG-31 could track targets within an enormous volume of space very easily because of its PESA radar allowed electronic scanning.

    Big_Gazza, kvs, miketheterrible, lyle6, lancelot, Yugo90, The_Observer and Finty like this post

    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 1090
    Points : 1124
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  mnztr Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:19 pm

    I really find it annoying when these US authors talk about how ancient some of these planes are, meanwhile, how old are the planes in the USAF. Even the F-22 is no spring chicken!! The F-16s and 15s are ancient designs let alone the B-52, T-38 etc. It annoying and patronizing. Grrrr
    Finty
    Finty

    Posts : 102
    Points : 102
    Join date : 2021-02-10
    Location : Great Britain

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Finty Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:53 pm

    mnztr wrote:I really find it annoying when these US authors talk about how ancient some of these planes are, meanwhile, how old are the planes in the USAF. Even the F-22 is no spring chicken!! The F-16s and 15s are ancient designs let alone the B-52, T-38 etc. It annoying and patronizing. Grrrr

    Don't worry too much, those that are worth listening to will know how old the US fighter fleet is, let alone bombers and tankers!

    Big_Gazza and PapaDragon like this post

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 4078
    Points : 4074
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Hole Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:54 pm

    The plane was never intended as a dogfighter, the author is misleading his readers with the remark that it can´t do close combat.

    I doubt that the ASAT missile has anything to do with Kinzhal, it is based on a missile from the 80´s. And most recon satellites are in a low orbit and can be reached by the new missile. The high flying ones can be jammed (GPS) or their optics blinded by lasers likePeresvet (early warning sats).

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 000176

    magnumcromagnon, Big_Gazza, PapaDragon and LMFS like this post

    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:23 pm

    Hole wrote:

    I doubt that the ASAT missile has anything to do with Kinzhal, it is based on a missile from the 80´s. And most recon satellites are in a low orbit and can be reached by the new missile. The high flying ones can be jammed (GPS) or their optics blinded by lasers likePeresvet (early warning sats).
    This is over simplifying, it may be able to launch a small device into lower orbits but beyond that odds of finding something and targeting in orbit by this means is not very useful nor efficient and particularly serves no objective as there are other means to do it. Dead on arrival project....
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 4078
    Points : 4074
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Hole Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:24 am

    Ever heard about things like radar, datalinks and such stuff? No?

    magnumcromagnon and lancelot like this post

    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:27 pm

    Hole wrote:Ever heard about things like radar, datalinks and such stuff? No?
    That type of ASAT was 70's idea and just 40 years late....just think with common sense and you should be fine. Reason why such things are no more than research. Radars, data links is not the issue here....think for yourself how orbits work and how jet planes work and you should be able to visualize the inefficiency
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28938
    Points : 29466
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:03 pm

    The MiG-31BMs are linked in with the VKO... aerospace defence forces, which operates all the major long range radars and space looking radars that Russia has... if anyone can get the to an intercept point to engage an approaching enemy satellite then it is them.

    Second... getting a 100kg payload into very low earth orbit... is enough to launch a 40kg 2KT nuclear warhead like the ones fitted to 152mm artillery shells and still have room for a deorbit rocket motor and an electronic brain that deorbits the warhead package over an area the size of a country.

    Likely very inaccurate, but about 45 minutes from any target on earth from any direction...


    That type of ASAT was 70's idea and just 40 years late....just think with common sense and you should be fine.

    The reason they stopped was the ABM treaty which specifically banned their use, but the US ripped up that treaty so they could put AEGIS ASHORE in europe.

    The missiles tested in the 1980s in Russia and the US were for launching satellites... but obviously the ability of achieving a stable reliable orbit is really not much different than doing the same in the opposite orbit of an object already in orbit... when they collide... boom.

    There was talk these rockets were early strike or late strike weapons, but I rather suspect they could also be micro satellites that Russia can launch after the US has destroyed all their recon satellites, so these can be launched to work out what damage was done and perhaps which targets might need follow up attacks...

    lyle6 and lancelot like this post

    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:The MiG-31BMs are linked in with the VKO... aerospace defence forces, which operates all the major long range radars and space looking radars that Russia has... if anyone can get the to an intercept point to engage an approaching enemy satellite then it is them.

    Second... getting a 100kg payload into very low earth orbit... is enough to launch a 40kg 2KT nuclear warhead like the ones fitted to 152mm artillery shells and still have room for a deorbit rocket motor and an electronic brain that deorbits the warhead package over an area the size of a country.

    Likely very inaccurate, but about 45 minutes from any target on earth from any direction...


    That type of ASAT was 70's idea and just 40 years late....just think with common sense and you should be fine.

    The reason they stopped was the ABM treaty which specifically banned their use, but the US ripped up that treaty so they could put AEGIS ASHORE in europe.

    The missiles tested in the 1980s in Russia and the US were for launching satellites... but obviously the ability of achieving a stable reliable orbit is really not much different than doing the same in the opposite orbit of an object already in orbit... when they collide... boom.

    There was talk these rockets were early strike or late strike weapons, but I rather suspect they could also be micro satellites that Russia can launch after the US has destroyed all their recon satellites, so these can be launched to work out what damage was done and perhaps which targets might need follow up attacks...

    I did say it can launch a small device but putting a nuclear charfge will destroy its own too and there are many ways to put a charge...only an idiot will do that considering the low orbit mechanics. Precisely targeting a sat in low orbit from mig-31 is not the efficient way. Most military things are designed on cost, efficiency and probablity. This is a dead project.....in ASAT role. I will agree to take back my words if it ever takes off....
    lyle6
    lyle6

    Posts : 522
    Points : 524
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  lyle6 Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:06 pm

    The US is on record bitching and moaning about drunk Russian satellites not keeping to their lane and approaching their multibillion dollar spy sats dangerously close - forcing them to waste precious fuel just to maintain separataion. Yet some nobody would have us believe this is purely fiction. Razz Yeah, just you keep watching and you might learn a thing or two. Or maybe not, Indians have the best tech after all and Russians are just scammers who somehow managed to connive the naive Indians to bankrolling all their shiny stuff Razz

    miketheterrible likes this post

    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:20 pm

    lyle6 wrote:The US is on record bitching and moaning about drunk Russian satellites not keeping to their lane and approaching their multibillion dollar spy sats dangerously close - forcing them to waste precious fuel just to maintain separataion. Yet some nobody would have us believe this is purely fiction. Razz Yeah, just you keep watching and you might learn a thing or two. Or maybe not, Indians have the best tech after all and Russians are just scammers who somehow managed to connive the naive Indians to bankrolling all their shiny stuff Razz
    Only one that seems to be drunk here is you....what does this have to do with India or Russians being scammers? Do you even know what you are talking about?
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 5748
    Points : 5722
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:21 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The US is on record bitching and moaning about drunk Russian satellites not keeping to their lane and approaching their multibillion dollar spy sats dangerously close - forcing them to waste precious fuel just to maintain separataion. Yet some nobody would have us believe this is purely fiction. Razz Yeah, just you keep watching and you might learn a thing or two. Or maybe not, Indians have the best tech after all and Russians are just scammers who somehow managed to connive the naive Indians to bankrolling all their shiny stuff Razz
    Only one that seems to be drunk here is you....what does this have to do with India or Russians being scammers? Do you even know what you are talking about?

    He does.

    You, flint and others do not.
    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:22 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The US is on record bitching and moaning about drunk Russian satellites not keeping to their lane and approaching their multibillion dollar spy sats dangerously close - forcing them to waste precious fuel just to maintain separataion. Yet some nobody would have us believe this is purely fiction. Razz Yeah, just you keep watching and you might learn a thing or two. Or maybe not, Indians have the best tech after all and Russians are just scammers who somehow managed to connive the naive Indians to bankrolling all their shiny stuff Razz
    Only one that seems to be drunk here is you....what does this have to do with India or Russians being scammers? Do you even know what you are talking about?

    He does.

    You, flint and others do not.
    Dude, get out of your little gangs and keep it relevant.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 5748
    Points : 5722
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  miketheterrible Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:25 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The US is on record bitching and moaning about drunk Russian satellites not keeping to their lane and approaching their multibillion dollar spy sats dangerously close - forcing them to waste precious fuel just to maintain separataion. Yet some nobody would have us believe this is purely fiction. Razz Yeah, just you keep watching and you might learn a thing or two. Or maybe not, Indians have the best tech after all and Russians are just scammers who somehow managed to connive the naive Indians to bankrolling all their shiny stuff Razz
    Only one that seems to be drunk here is you....what does this have to do with India or Russians being scammers? Do you even know what you are talking about?

    He does.

    You, flint and others do not.
    Dude, get out of your little gangs and keep it relevant.

    You are the one calling someone else drunk. I suggest you do what he says - type less, read more.
    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:26 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The US is on record bitching and moaning about drunk Russian satellites not keeping to their lane and approaching their multibillion dollar spy sats dangerously close - forcing them to waste precious fuel just to maintain separataion. Yet some nobody would have us believe this is purely fiction. Razz Yeah, just you keep watching and you might learn a thing or two. Or maybe not, Indians have the best tech after all and Russians are just scammers who somehow managed to connive the naive Indians to bankrolling all their shiny stuff Razz
    Only one that seems to be drunk here is you....what does this have to do with India or Russians being scammers? Do you even know what you are talking about?

    He does.

    You, flint and others do not.
    Dude, get out of your little gangs and keep it relevant.

    You are the one calling someone else drunk. I suggest you do what he says - type less, read more.
    Did you even read his comment? What does his comment have to do with mig-31 lauching sat or asat? I know the obsession of bringing US into everything but a little bit of rationality is not too much to ask or display
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28938
    Points : 29466
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:31 am

    I did say it can launch a small device but putting a nuclear charfge will destroy its own too and there are many ways to put a charge...only an idiot will do that considering the low orbit mechanics

    You misunderstand.

    You can carry a small nuclear charge in the rocket for the purposes of having an orbital nuclear bombardment system.... you launch it up in a direction and it enters low earth orbit... which means it is going to go round the earth for a fairly long time depending on what altitude it reached... it does not have to be high to remain for a couple of years, but as I specified half of the 100kg payload could be a nuclear bomb and the other half a brain and a deorbiting rocket set to deorbit the bomb over enemy territory... not accurate but you could launch dozens a day.

    Another option would be to replace that bomb with a micro satellite because when it is used WWIII will be going on and Russian satellites will be under attack... a low orbit optical satellite could be launched 12 hours after the war started to fly over the US to see what is destroyed and what is not so any Poseidons or nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missiles you are about to launch could use some fresh targets.

    The third use could be shooting down enemy satellites which is just a case of launching this 100kg payload in the same orbit as the target but in the opposite direction... every 45 minutes there is a chance they will meet.... if the 100kg payload is a bag of nails that are slowly spreading out every 45 minutes the chance of a collision gets higher and higher till it becomes certain....

    Precisely targeting a sat in low orbit from mig-31 is not the efficient way. Most military things are designed on cost, efficiency and probablity. This is a dead project.....in ASAT role. I will agree to take back my words if it ever takes off....

    Putting satellites in low earth orbit is a business... and a MiG-31 can fly anywhere to launch.... even near the equator where it can get a boost from the earths rotation to go for higher orbits without having to make the load lighter.

    I know the obsession of bringing US into everything but a little bit of rationality is not too much to ask or display

    The US is introducing Space Forces... likely taking weapons into space... Russia has to take steps to counter that whether she wants to or not.

    Musks space lander for deploying Marines anywhere on the planet in 45 minutes might find missiles from all directions arriving from orbit that does not require a space launch rocket to be fuelled up and made ready... infact they likely wont even notice it is being launched because MiG-31s often operate at altitude and speed.

    Also please stop repeating everything everyone else says in your reply.

    HTML works like brackets in maths so if you click on the quote button please take the time to unwrap all the previous comments and just leave the one you are replying to... this is a forum rule remember...
    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    You misunderstand.

    You can carry a small nuclear charge in the rocket for the purposes of having an orbital nuclear bombardment system.... you launch it up in a direction and it enters low earth orbit... which means it is going to go round the earth for a fairly long time depending on what altitude it reached... it does not have to be high to remain for a couple of years, but as I specified half of the 100kg payload could be a nuclear bomb and the other half a brain and a deorbiting rocket set to deorbit the bomb over enemy territory... not accurate but you could launch dozens a day.

    Another option would be to replace that bomb with a micro satellite because when it is used WWIII will be going on and Russian satellites will be under attack... a low orbit optical satellite could be launched 12 hours after the war started to fly over the US to see what is destroyed and what is not so any Poseidons or nuclear powered unlimited range cruise missiles you are about to launch could use some fresh targets.

    The third use could be shooting down enemy satellites which is just a case of launching this 100kg payload in the same orbit as the target but in the opposite direction... every 45 minutes there is a chance they will meet.... if the 100kg payload is a bag of nails that are slowly spreading out every 45 minutes the chance of a collision gets higher and higher till it becomes certain....

    Putting satellites in low earth orbit is a business... and a MiG-31 can fly anywhere to launch.... even near the equator where it can get a boost from the earths rotation to go for higher orbits without having to make the load lighter.
    I understand very well, space is not confined to 3 or 4 countries anymore and anyone can launch a 100 kg or microsats from lot of places in world unless you are saying nuclear holocaust already occured at which point Russia would have lost all of its assets too. No particular benefit in using mig-31 in that role, if it did we would see it adopted for that role long time back and more recently. Rest all is possibilities....no Mig-31 does not have range to get to equator nor Russia has bases near equator where it deployed 31's to do that. It is not the primary purpose of mig-31. If Russia is putting charges in space during regular times then they would use one of the rockets to do that unlikely they will use 31 for that.



    The US is introducing Space Forces... likely taking weapons into space... Russia has to take steps to counter that whether she wants to or not
    It is a different topic, my comment was specific to mig-31 not satellites inspecting other sats or space militarization. You are stretching it needlessly.

    Also please stop repeating everything everyone else says in your reply.

    HTML works like brackets in maths so if you click on the quote button please take the time to unwrap all the previous comments and just leave the one you are replying to... this is a forum rule remember...[/color]
    [/quote]
    I am assuming you made this comment to others or everyone...I do not repeat more than the last quote unless its accidental. See my posts unless it occurs accidentally. Even here see the dude that started this chain repeating in full, that short fused one that does not read before commenting.


    Last edited by gbu48098 on Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarified equator related detail)
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 4078
    Points : 4074
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Hole Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:23 pm

    Good, lets elaborate a little on the development of ASAT.

    First of all a satellite can´t maneuver like a plane or a missile. If you know in which height and direction the thing flies you can hit it. To avoid a incoming missile/object a satellite would burn nearly all his fuel so even if an enemy would miss it the satellite would be out of order quite fast.

    The first russian ASAT was a so-called interceptor satellite. It was tested from the late 60´s to the mid 70´s and then put into service. At the beginning of the 80´s there were at least 2 launch pads in Baikonur reserved for the ASAT system, together with technical facilities and storage area where some 12+ space launchers and satellites waited for action. The Tsiklon rocket was used, maximum engagement height were 5.000km.

    The interceptor satellite consists of engines, a battery, computer and camera + some explosives so he could miss the target by a few metres and still destroy or sufficiently damage it.

    Data for the ASAT system were gathered by Daugava and Dnestr radars + the Krona radar and Okno optical system which were put into service in the 80´s. And of course the Don-2 radar close to Moscow which is able to cover the whole of European Russia and beyond.

    The MiG-31D was tested between 1987 and 1989 with the 79M6 and 95M6 missiles. They carry a small kill vehicle which hits the satellites and destroys it. At the same time the americans tested a modified F-15 with the ASM-135.

    Today the data is gathered by Woronesh radars, the Don-2 and Krona (two more sites are being planned with new radars) and Okno (2 sites, Tadjikistan and Altaj).

    The current ABM system around Moscow can be used for ASAT, the new A-235 will be even better at this. Then there will be the Nudol ASAT/ABM system and the S-500 should be capable to fullfil the SAM/ABM/ASAT roles.

    The MiG-31 in the ASAT role will be the first line of defence because it can deliver the missile up to 1.500km from the base (without IFR).

    Last remark: if such a weapon wouldn´t be feasible the russians wouldn´t waste money on flying the plane and the missile.

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:21 pm

    Hole wrote:

    Last remark: if such a weapon wouldn´t be feasible the russians wouldn´t waste money on flying the plane and the missile.

    It is not in service to do that for that exact reason....do you know how many satellites are in low earth orbit now? Lot of feasibility and research occurs, it does not mean everything gets realized or practically deployed. There are better ways to take out sats that is exactly why they haven't really done that. Even after 30 years its just talk that it can do that...nothing beyond that. There are no ASAT mig 31 squadrons....during holocaust all that infrastructure of space radars can safely be assumed to be dust on both sides.

    Anyway, current data shows while it may be possible it has not been prioritized to do that and no squadrons are created to do that as of now after atleast 30 years in service of mig-25/31.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28938
    Points : 29466
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:53 am

    No particular benefit in using mig-31 in that role,

    Actually huge benefit... launch the same rocket from the ground and it wont make it to space let alone to orbital speeds.

    Launching from a MiG-31 greatly reduces the size and weight the rocket needs to be.

    no Mig-31 does not have range to get to equator nor Russia has bases near equator where it deployed 31's to do that.

    A MiG-31 could be flown with an inflight refuelling tanker, or it could be put on a ship to Venezuela or Indonesia and flown from there... if it is launching micro satellites that isn't necessarily an act of war you know.

    It is not the primary purpose of mig-31.

    It was the primary purpose of the MiG-31K, till it became the standard carrier of the Kinzhal.

    It is a different topic, my comment was specific to mig-31 not satellites inspecting other sats or space militarization. You are stretching it needlessly.

    Not a different topic at all the MiG-31 has anti satellite uses too and would actually be used to try to intercept some incoming ballistic threats if they come down near where MiG-31BMs are operating.

    I am assuming you made this comment to others or everyone...I do not repeat more than the last quote unless its accidental. See my posts unless it occurs accidentally. Even here see the dude that started this chain repeating in full, that short fused one that does not read before commenting.

    That was directed at everyone involved, yourself included, but the other people doing it too.

    For instance your post number 815 includes the original post from Lyle6, (who did nothing wrong by the way), your original reply and then mikes reply to you and then your reply to mike and mikes second reply to you.... instead of repeating the 5 quotes you should have just replied to the last.

    It is not in service to do that for that exact reason....do you know how many satellites are in low earth orbit now?

    We don't know what they have in service and what they don't.

    We know the ABM system in Moscow is operational and has been for decades, but whether Nudol is in service or still testing, or these rockets are in service or still testing is completely unknown.

    BTW Zircon raises another possibility... a scramjet powered first stage that takes the missile to 40km altitude and mach 10 would be a very fuel efficient first stage booster before a rocket accelerated it the rest of the way...

    There are better ways to take out sats that is exactly why they haven't really done that.

    This is a roaming platform already linked in to their air defence network... why wouldn't they include it?

    Even after 30 years its just talk that it can do that...nothing beyond that.

    Much of that 30 years it was illegal under the ABM treaty... a treaty the US ripped up in the 2000s so they could put ABM systems in Europe... now it is fair game.

    There are no ASAT mig 31 squadrons....during holocaust all that infrastructure of space radars can safely be assumed to be dust on both sides.

    The idea is to defeat enemy satellites before the infrastructures are dust so the defences can do their thing and the US and west wont know what worked and what is destroyed and what didn't work and what has survived.

    Micro satellites could then be launched by surviving MiG-31 to spot for targets for weapons like Poseidon and Storm Petrel etc etc.

    Anyway, current data shows while it may be possible it has not been prioritized to do that and no squadrons are created to do that as of now after atleast 30 years in service of mig-25/31.

    Current data shows new squadrons of MiG-31K have been put into service for carrying Kinzhal missiles for anti ship use... satellites could be dealt with using the same aircraft with a different missile.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 4078
    Points : 4074
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Hole Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:45 am

    The AGM-135 fired from an F-15 shot down a old satellite in the late 80´s. The russians didn´t demonstrate that capability because of Gorbi/Yelzin. After the "end" of the cold war work on ASAT systems was stopped (at least officially). After the americans and chinese destroyed satellites with land or sea based missiles the work on Nudol and the specialised MiG-31 version resumed or began in earnest. According to russian experts the MiG-31 is best suited as ASAT weapon because it can fly very fast and high and is therefore superior to land baed systems.

    The number of important spy sats isn´t that large. Destroy a few of them and the surveillance picture is getting blurred.
    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Actually huge benefit... launch the same rocket from the ground and it wont make it to space let alone to orbital speeds.

    Launching from a MiG-31 greatly reduces the size and weight the rocket needs to be.
    A single soyuz can launch a lot of them and if you are talking nuclear exchange time then all bets are off to do something like that as most infrastructure will be taken out on all sides.



    A MiG-31 could be flown with an inflight refuelling tanker, or it could be put on a ship to Venezuela or Indonesia and flown from there... if it is launching micro satellites that isn't necessarily an act of war you know.
    Too much of a stretched argument -- wont try to counter as it just can;t stand in practical realm. Except they have not done that in over 25 years for obvious reasons after experiment..


    It was the primary purpose of the MiG-31K, till it became the standard carrier of the Kinzhal.
    No ASAT mig-31 squads nor launches beyond an experiment. Kinzhal is a practical use for this plane


    Not a different topic at all the MiG-31 has anti satellite uses too and would actually be used to try to intercept some incoming ballistic threats if they come down near where MiG-31BMs are operating.
    Not orbital intercepts....like icbm warheads.


    That was directed at everyone involved, yourself included, but the other people doing it too.

    For instance your post number 815 includes the original post from Lyle6, (who did nothing wrong by the way), your original reply and then mikes reply to you and then your reply to mike and mikes second reply to you.... instead of repeating the 5 quotes you should have just replied to the last.
    811 is my quote to lllyle user and it was to his post only and then the other user did not follow the guidance.....you should blame the other user not me for introducing block quotes


    We don't know what they have in service and what they don't.
    We do not know anything if its said like that...

    We know the ABM system in Moscow is operational and has been for decades, but whether Nudol is in service or still testing, or these rockets are in service or still testing is completely unknown.
    Unrelated topic...my point was based on existing open source observations or more like speculations. I already acknowledged possibility because they did the experiment long time back. No one thing ends with one test even for much simpler things....

    BTW Zircon raises another possibility... a scramjet powered first stage that takes the missile to 40km altitude and mach 10 would be a very fuel efficient first stage booster before a rocket accelerated it the rest of the way...
    It is not speed related, it is more about alternate more simpler and cheaper ways now to do it when rockets are manufactured on assembly lines to send to space....


    This is a roaming platform already linked in to their air defence network... why wouldn't they include it?
    You can build your own confusion matrix or other predictions why its not considered more than an experiment then and now....until new evidence comes into open source not much to talk on possibilities in future.


    Much of that 30 years it was illegal under the ABM treaty... a treaty the US ripped up in the 2000s so they could put ABM systems in Europe... now it is fair game.
    18 years already since ABM ripped apart


    The idea is to defeat enemy satellites before the infrastructures are dust so the defences can do their thing and the US and west wont know what worked and what is destroyed and what didn't work and what has survived.

    Micro satellites could then be launched by surviving MiG-31 to spot for targets for weapons like Poseidon and Storm Petrel etc etc.
    Too optimistic to consider what you are saying when a nuke exchange occurs to do something like that....most military deployments follow optimization principles as things are finite and therefore risks prioritize why,what, how and where


    Current data shows new squadrons of MiG-31K have been put into service for carrying Kinzhal missiles for anti ship use... satellites could be dealt with using the same aircraft with a different missile.
    Kinzhals are not orbitally deployed as far as I know
    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:11 pm

    Hole wrote:The AGM-135 fired from an F-15 shot down a old satellite in the late 80´s. The russians didn´t demonstrate that capability because of Gorbi/Yelzin. After the "end" of the cold war work on ASAT systems was stopped (at least officially). After the americans and chinese destroyed satellites with land or sea based missiles the work on Nudol and the specialised MiG-31 version resumed or began in earnest. According to russian experts the MiG-31 is best suited as ASAT weapon because it can fly very fast and high and is therefore superior to land baed systems.

    The number of important spy sats isn´t that large. Destroy a few of them and the surveillance picture is getting blurred.
    So we shall see....I only based on current speculations. Experiments are experiments.....there are lot of one off experiments. Ground based and sea based ones certainly but you have to question yourself when a country has literally 100's of sats in orbit why anyone country would target one? Laser blinding like peresvet make some of these ineffective if the experiments did not already.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28938
    Points : 29466
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:54 am

    [quoteA single soyuz can launch a lot of them and if you are talking nuclear exchange time then all bets are off to do something like that as most infrastructure will be taken out on all sides.[/quote]

    A single Soyuz launch takes months to prepare and as you said its launch facilities could be compromised by the time it is needed.

    In comparison a MiG-31 could be located anywhere in Russia, or flown anywhere for the launch and because the rockets are launched from altitude and also at speed they are nothing like the size or signature of a rocket you would normally need to get such a package into orbit... you could transport a MiG-31 and 20 missiles in an An-124 most likely... 50 tons for the MiG and 80 tons for the missiles assuming 4 tons each...


    Too much of a stretched argument -

    The simple fact is that the closer you are to the equator the more of a boost any launch in the direction of the earths spin... for commercial launches it might make sense to move closer to the equator to achieve a higher orbit, but for military purposes the direction of launch might make the speed of the earths rotation at the equator count against the launch rather than improve its performance.

    No ASAT mig-31 squads nor launches beyond an experiment. Kinzhal is a practical use for this plane

    Photos of MiG-31s with large rockets underneath them that are clearly not Kinzhals suggests otherwise.

    Not orbital intercepts....like icbm warheads.

    ICBM warheads do not enter orbit, they go up and come down like an artillery shell... a MiG-31 operating in the middle of Siberia with **** all of any consequence within 1,000km radius has just taken off from its airbase and an SLBM warhead is detected heading for the air base... a MiG-31 with an air launched S-500 missile might be a good solution to dealing with the threat... no ABM treaty to stop them after all.

    811 is my quote to lllyle user and it was to his post only and then the other user did not follow the guidance.....you should blame the other user not me for introducing block quotes

    It is clearly stated in the forum rules that you have read of course.

    Unrelated topic...my point was based on existing open source observations or more like speculations. I already acknowledged possibility because they did the experiment long time back. No one thing ends with one test even for much simpler things....

    Kinzhal is an air launched Iskander, so they set a precedent... they could just as easily air launch an S-500 SAM, or a small satellite launch rocket with its biggest first stage removed.

    It is not speed related, it is more about alternate more simpler and cheaper ways now to do it when rockets are manufactured on assembly lines to send to space....

    Of course it is speed and altitude related... the higher and faster moving the rocket is when it is launched the less speed and altitude and air it has to fly to to get to space. Lifting it up though the thickest warmest part of the atmosphere makes reaching space much easier... momentum is as critical as speed.

    18 years already since ABM ripped apart

    But no urgent interest till Trump started talking about militarisation of space and space forces etc.

    Photos of large rockets under MiG-31s are not recent or new either...

    Too optimistic to consider what you are saying when a nuke exchange occurs to do something like that....most military deployments follow optimization principles as things are finite and therefore risks prioritize why,what, how and where

    If you are creating doomsday revenge weapons it makes sense to have some way of using them efficiently... launch the nuclear powered low flying cruise missiles in any direction you like and launch some micro satellites to have a look at the damage... the poseidons and long range cruise missiles might be programmed not to hit targets for days or weeks... plenty of time for microsatellites to look over the target zones and determine what needs to be hit again... then launch a Sputnik 10 that orbits the earth every 90 minutes transmitting the locations each missile in flight should be going for...

    Kinzhals are not orbitally deployed as far as I know

    Of course not, but in the ammo depots for the MiG-31K aircraft that deliver Kinzhals against ship and surface targets they could have a large stock of other rockets they could also launch if needed against satellites or to put their own satellites in orbit.

    Ground based and sea based ones certainly but you have to question yourself when a country has literally 100's of sats in orbit why anyone country would target one?

    There are a lot of countries that might want to blind Russia or the US or European satellite users... the destruction of other satellites might damage or disable your own so emergency deployment of new temporary satellites might be a valuable capability.
    avatar
    gbu48098

    Posts : 180
    Points : 182
    Join date : 2021-04-18

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    A single Soyuz launch takes months to prepare and as you said its launch facilities could be compromised by the time it is needed.
    Peace time operates like that and in 35 years there has not been any evidence that this is the way any wait time was resolved. Space launches are planned in peace time and infrastructure will be taken out during war time especiallly Russia vs US, so practicality of this is 10000:1 or even worse.


    The simple fact is that the closer you are to the equator the more of a boost any launch in the direction of the earths spin... for commercial launches it might make sense to move closer to the equator to achieve a higher orbit, but for military purposes the direction of launch might make the speed of the earths rotation at the equator count against the launch rather than improve its performance.
    It was your comment about mig-31 being close to equator or getting close by flying with refuelers that too with nuclear charges and sats/asat's and what not. This is more of "anything is possible" argument.


    Photos of MiG-31s with large rockets underneath them that are clearly not Kinzhals suggests otherwise.
    Could be manythings....we have not seen mig-31 launching orbit loads of anykind since that one offish....most experiments are carried out with controlled params and same with US shooting SATs or China....war time is much harder to predict.



    ICBM warheads do not enter orbit, they go up and come down like an artillery shell... a MiG-31 operating in the middle of Siberia with **** all of any consequence within 1,000km radius has just taken off from its airbase and an SLBM warhead is detected heading for the air base... a MiG-31 with an air launched S-500 missile might be a good solution to dealing with the threat... no ABM treaty to stop them after all.
    Sorry I meant " outer space"


    It is clearly stated in the forum rules that you have read of course.
    Allright, made a mistake :-)


    Of course it is speed and altitude related... the higher and faster moving the rocket is when it is launched the less speed and altitude and air it has to fly to to get to space. Lifting it up though the thickest warmest part of the atmosphere makes reaching space much easier... momentum is as critical as speed.
    Zircon speed is not the deciding factor for this....anyway we have not seen them doing this in its existence so far beyond one or two experiements 2 decades ago. I will change my opinion if more experiments are carried out or deployments happen. Never said its impossible...

    But no urgent interest till Trump started talking about militarisation of space and space forces etc.

    Photos of large rockets under MiG-31s are not recent or new either...
    Correct, not urgent or efficient especially now to use it in that role. It is a fast interceptor of planes and cruisemissles and kinzhal like missiles. ASAT role is not.


    If you are creating doomsday revenge weapons it makes sense to have some way of using them efficiently... launch the nuclear powered low flying cruise missiles in any direction you like and launch some micro satellites to have a look at the damage... the poseidons and long range cruise missiles might be programmed not to hit targets for days or weeks... plenty of time for microsatellites to look over the target zones and determine what needs to be hit again... then launch a Sputnik 10 that orbits the earth every 90 minutes transmitting the locations each missile in flight should be going for...
    Not the issue....my point was its practicality in those times for this usecase.


    Of course not, but in the ammo depots for the MiG-31K aircraft that deliver Kinzhals against ship and surface targets they could have a large stock of other rockets they could also launch if needed against satellites or to put their own satellites in orbit.
    Let's only talk on open source speculations.

    There are a lot of countries that might want to blind Russia or the US or European satellite users... the destruction of other satellites might damage or disable your own so emergency deployment of new temporary satellites might be a valuable capability.
    Not a single icbm was used in war, they can't even address covid-19 properly and nuclear exchange after math I am sure we know what we can anticipate now.

    Sponsored content

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 33 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat May 08, 2021 3:48 am