Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1073
    Points : 1071
    Join date : 2015-12-30

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:47 am

    GarryB wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:How many MiG-31's does Russia have in reserve overall? How many do you think they could modernize and bring back into service?

    I would say it probably depends on the engines... have they put the engine back in to production or are they working on new engine upgrades for the aircraft... something they could further update...

    miketheterrible wrote:It wouldn't be out of realm for them to restart production
    Modernized parts may make it far more efficient too.

    MiG-31 was a very good jet. Still a very good jet.

    As it was posted in the united engine corporation thread last summer, Russia is restarting production of the engine core of the D30F6 (Mig31 engine).

    They do not need to produce the full engine and they have a lot of engines sitting somewhere and until now not useable because of lack of spare parts doe the hot core.


    As I already commented on the other thread:

    I understand the importance of producing newly built cores for the mig-31 engines, extremely important if they want to keep them operating as long as possible. (I believe they also have more than 100 mig-31 in reserve, that could be modernised and put back in service).

    It remains, however, a 40 years old engine. For sure they will have something quite different for the Mig-41.

    In addition, probably they do not need entire new engines, since normally the hot core is the one that have the shorter life. Since they are not building new mig-31, they just need to replace the parts that are at the end of their lifecycle.



    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/engines

    Russia Relaunches Production of Engine Cores for the MiG-31

    by Vladimir Karnozov

    August 13, 2019, 8:19 AM



    Russia’s United Engine Corporation (local acronym ODK) is halfway through an effort to relaunch the series production of the core engine (gas-generator) for the D30F6 reheated turbofan that powers the MiG-31 interceptor. The work is being carried out by the Perm Motor Plant (PMZ).

    This company manufactured about 1,600 such engines in the 1979-1992 timeframe, each developing a maximum thrust of 152 kN (34,170 pounds). Due to the high utilization of the MiG-31 fleet over the past decade, the stock of spare engines is running out, and operators and industry need to replenish it by overhauling some engines through the replacement of worn-out parts in the hot section.
    A member of ODK’s Perm Motors division that unites several enterprises located in the city of Perm, PMZ has recently resumed the manufacture of the high-pressure turbine (HPT) and combustion chamber. This effort took three years, according to ODK-Perm Motors CEO Sergei Popov. Together with some other parts, these items are now included in a typical repair kit for the Aircraft Repair Plant no. 218 at Gatchina (ARZ218) that specializes in D30F6 heavy maintenance.
    The next three years will be devoted to relaunching production of the high-pressure compressor (HPC). With that accomplished, PMZ will be in a position to assemble a completely new gas-generator for the D30F6 by late 2021. Popov said that, as of today, there are no plans for the manufacture of a complete engine. Instead, starting in early 2022, his enterprise would supply “extended repair kits” to ARZ218.
    Out of the production run of some 520 MiG-31s, half remain operational in Russia and Kazakhstan. The Russian Air and Space Force (VKS) wants to keep the type in service until 2035. Since 2012, about 60 aircraft have undergone modernization into the MiG-31BM/BSM version. Earlier this year, the Russian defense ministry awarded United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) a new order. While exact numbers remain secret, UAC president Yuri Slyusar said that all surviving MiG-31s will undergo modernization by 2023.

    In the meantime, local media and experts have speculated on the possibility of restarting D30F6 production to power the MiG-41/PAK DP, a next-generation high-speed interceptor that is under development to replace the MiG-31. Additionally, the Aviadvigatel design house that developed the engine intends to employ its gas-generator in a new 32-MW industrial turbine for Gazprom and other fossil fuel companies. Should this product sell well, it would help the industry invest in the production restoration effort—not just of the core, but of the entire engine.
    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 363
    Points : 365
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:09 pm

    Another BM for Yelizovo

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12274750@egNews
    02/08/2020
    Pacific Fleet naval aviation replenished with another MiG-31BM fighter
    After repair and modernization, another MiG-31BM high-altitude fighter-interceptor returned to Kamchatka, which is part of the Air Regiment of the Troops and Forces in Northeast Russia.
    During the repair and modernization, the high-altitude fighter received the latest avionics and electronic systems, as well as improved tactical characteristics, which significantly increases its combat capabilities.

    https://twitter.com/qretaxyeta/status/1227144480240939008
    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Mig-3111
    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 363
    Points : 365
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:10 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:@AMCXXL

    How many MiG-31's does Russia have in reserve overall?  How many do you think they could modernize and bring back into service?

    Lípetsk: 29 MiG-31, the most, about two dozen are stored MiG-31DZ from Perm and Khotilovo
    probably not more of half a dozen of MiG-31BS available for BM modernizarion
    https://www.google.es/maps/@52.6329531,39.4674635,451m/data=!3m1!1e3

    Yelizovo: in that image of last year there are 31 machines, 2 are modernized and 29 MiG-31 not modernized.
    Of the, about 10-12 are DZ, available for MiG-31K upgrade
    https://www.google.es/maps/@53.1773197,158.4392137,445m/data=!3m1!1e3

    Tsentralnaya Uglovaya: there are 36 machines here, of then 24 are BM and 12 are MiG-31 not moderimzed, about the half are DZ
    https://www.google.es/maps/@43.3541324,132.0669408,270m/data=!3m1!1e3

    Knevichi ARZ: 7 MiG-31 of forst series are stored here, the better airframes already have been taken
    https://www.google.es/maps/@43.3992979,132.2032192,540m/data=!3m1!1e3

    In the 514 ARZ only remain one dozen and a half of old airframes for canibalization and get parts


    Then, there are 77 airframes in reserve (29+29+12+7)
    Of them, about 35-40 are DZ and probably only half dozen of BS remain
    Other 35 are of original series , not available for modernizarion if there are not radars Zaslon-A and spares stored for get the standard BS and then , to modernization


    In the plant of Nizhniy Novhorod should be the airframes for the modernization in this year 2020, at least we know 6 will be send to Kansk.
    This means the Kansk regiment will reach 33 machines, so 9 MiG-31BM type 28 (with refueling probe) are available to send to Yelizovo

    Probably, also several machines from Savasleyka wlil be send to Yelizovo

    Really, with a dozen more of BM, the modernization will be complete (now there are 142 handed over, 4 of then lost)

    The total numbrer of BM produzed for the tropos will be between 155 and 160 (6 regiments of 24=144 + one dozen for training and replace losses)


    After that the 35-40 DZ (3 squadrons) will get the MiG-31K standard , for a total of about 50 MiG-31K


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4734
    Points : 4712
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:14 pm

    I still think the MiG-31K is a waste as it only carries 1 Kinzhal. All Tu-22M3 should be armed with that so MiG-31K can be repurposed.
    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 363
    Points : 365
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:30 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I still think the MiG-31K is a waste as it only carries 1 Kinzhal. All Tu-22M3 should be armed with that so MiG-31K can be repurposed.

    I think not a waste, you still have an interceptor with also the possibility of a long range strike.

    This is not a complete modernization, only install the missile support.
    There are very few Tu-22M3, only about 60 in total, and this airplanes are not so faster and have not a high ceiling than the MiG-31

    The good of MiG-31 is can fire the missile at near 3000 km/h and more than 20 km of altitude, this means Khinzal can get a higher top speed and range, because the the saving of fuel in the acceleration and climb phase.

    A group of several MiG-31K will be lethal for a US Carrier even at thousend of miles
    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 363
    Points : 365
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    How many MiG-31's does Russia have in reserve overall? How many do you think they could modernize and bring back into service?

    I would say it probably depends on the engines... have they put the engine back in to production or are they working on new engine upgrades for the aircraft... something they could further update...

    there are a big stock of engines in the system. more than 900 as were refered in a comisión in the state Duna (parlament) in 2013
    The repair and update of the engines is happening since the begining of modernization
    They can opérate the MiG-31 as many time as is necesary
    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL

    Posts : 363
    Points : 365
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  AMCXXL on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:44 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:MiG-31K launches Kinzhal, not BM as far as anyone is aware.

    Some major mistakes in that rt article. Not surprising to be honest.
    in this article it is written:

    RT wrote:In addition, a special modification of the MiG-31BM, which received the designation MiG-31K, has become the only combat carrier of the hypersonic aircraft complex X-47M2 "Kinzhal" to date .
    .

    MiG-31BM is the modernization of MiG-31B and MiG-31BS.
    Index "B" refers to the MiG-31 with Zaslon-A radar, so only is BM a MiG-31 with Zaslon-A radar

    MiG-31K is an improvement of MiG-31DZ, capable to carry a Khinzal missile, so MiG-31K IS NOT any type of MiG-31BM

    The person who wrote that stupidity in RT is a great ignorant

    [quote="Rodion_Romanovic"]
    GarryB wrote:
    Out of the production run of some 520 MiG-31s, half remain operational in Russia and Kazakhstan. The Russian Air and Space Force (VKS) wants to keep the type in service until 2035. Since 2012, about 60 aircraft have undergone modernization into the MiG-31BM/BSM version. Earlier this year, the Russian defense ministry awarded United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) a new order. While exact numbers remain secret, UAC president Yuri Slyusar said that all surviving MiG-31s will undergo modernization by 2023.

    other big nonsense

    By 2010, the half of MiG-31 was scrapped. Kazajstán had 24 in operation and 10 in reserve, and Russia had 120 in service and 130 in reserve.
    Now there are 160 in russian service

    The contract of 60 signed in 2011 was the third contract
    The first of 8 was in 2006 and other for at least one dozen before the contract in 2011
    In 2015 other contract for 50 + 4 (for replace losses) was signed
    The total contracted for 2006-2018 has been about 140 machines, and now there are other contract for several more dozens
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6115
    Points : 6266
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:23 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:It wouldn't be out of realm for them to restart production
    Modernized parts may make it far more efficient too.

    MiG-31 was a very good jet. Still a very good jet.
    If what AMCXXL is saying is true, that the K variant is a modernized DZ variant, that means it's capable of launching the anti-sat missile (which is about the same size as kinzhal), which if need be could be converted into a FOBs glide-bomb with a thermonuclear warhead. The K variant seems to be optimized to launch oversized munitions, which opens the window for many opportunities. There was talk there was going to be a air-launched version of one of the missiles destined for the S-500 complex; just imagine a oversized munition capable of defeating mid-course targets.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9379
    Points : 9461
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:32 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:...If what AMCXXL is saying is true, that the K variant is a modernized DZ variant, that means it's capable of launching the anti-sat missile (which is about the same size as kinzhal).....

    That ASAT missile is almost twice the size of Kinzhal

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25952
    Points : 26498
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:50 am

    MiG-31 was a very good jet. Still a very good jet.

    The most effective interceptor available today or for its entire career... American fanbois claim the F-14 was better, but in terms of systems quality and performance the MiG is better.

    There was one test for the F-14 where it shot down 6 different targets at once, but if you look at the details the mechanical scan of its radar meant although the targets could be at different speeds and distances the total height difference between all 6 targets was about 650 metres... which is so unrealistic as it would be tasked with shooting down Backfire bombers at 12km altitude and its missiles which have either high or low profiles... high being about 22km and low being wavetop, and with later newer missiles up to 40km altitude for the missiles moving at mach 4.5.


    The MiG-31 is faster and has a much better electronically scanned radar that can track targets over a much wider volume of airspace.

    Part of its problem in its early models was the sheer volume of airspace that could be scanned limited its range, but more powerful computer processors increase its performance radically without any changes to the radar... changes to the radar improve performance even further...

    With these new photonic radars... for which the MiG would be the ideal platform the performance might improve exponentially... the new radar elements are supposed to be lighter and more compact so the radar that could be fitted could be bigger and much more powerful...

    It remains, however, a 40 years old engine. For sure they will have something quite different for the Mig-41.

    Of course... the MiG-41 will likely have a combine turbofan(for takeoff and landing)/ramjet(very high speed cruise) engine and modified design to incorporate internal weapon carriage... the latter alone will make it more stealthy but also lower drag and able to maintain higher flight speeds with less engine thrust required to maintain it.

    Some sort of S-500 based AAM could be used to shoot down all sorts of high flying targets including satellites in orbit...

    I still think the MiG-31K is a waste as it only carries 1 Kinzhal. All Tu-22M3 should be armed with that so MiG-31K can be repurposed.

    Not a waste... it effectively makes the missile rather more potent and longer ranged when launched from higher speeds and higher altitudes...

    Sometimes that extra performance could be critical... when it is not or when numbers are more important then a Backfire with four kinzhals can also be used.

    They can opérate the MiG-31 as many time as is necesary

    Good to hear. thumbsup

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3141
    Points : 3141
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Hole on Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:47 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:It wouldn't be out of realm for them to restart production
    Modernized parts may make it far more efficient too.

    MiG-31 was a very good jet. Still a very good jet.
    If what AMCXXL is saying is true, that the K variant is a modernized DZ variant, that means it's capable of launching the anti-sat missile (which is about the same size as kinzhal), which if need be could be converted into a FOBs glide-bomb with a thermonuclear warhead. The K variant seems to be optimized to launch oversized munitions, which opens the window for many opportunities. There was talk there was going to be a air-launched version of one of the missiles destined for the S-500 complex; just imagine a oversized munition capable of defeating mid-course targets.

    The MiG-31 (Izdeliye 01DZ) is the version with IFR capability.
    The ASAT carrier was called MiG-31D (Izdeliye 07).
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4460
    Points : 4456
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:07 pm

    MiG-31/41 will become a hypersonic killer
    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/02/12/mig41/
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25952
    Points : 26498
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:39 am

    In general for a fighter high speed is a waste of energy and fuel and just makes the plane more expensive and complex.

    For an interceptor speed and altitude are more important than the ability to manouver hard in a dogfight or to be stealthy...
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 497
    Points : 527
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  mnztr on Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:19 am

    AMCXXL wrote:Another BM for Yelizovo

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12274750@egNews
    02/08/2020
    Pacific Fleet naval aviation replenished with another MiG-31BM fighter
    After repair and \
    modernization, another MiG-31BM high-altitude fighter-interceptor returned to Kamchatka, which is part of the Air Regiment of the Troops and Forces in Northeast Russia.
    During the repair and modernization, the high-altitude fighter received the latest avionics and electronic systems, as well as improved tactical characteristics, which significantly increases its combat capabilities.

    https://twitter.com/qretaxyeta/status/1227144480240939008
    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Mig-3111

    Still a sexy beast after all those years!!!
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3141
    Points : 3141
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Hole on Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:31 am

    But it had some plastic surgery. Very Happy
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 497
    Points : 527
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  mnztr on Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:38 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:MiG-31/41 will become a hypersonic killer
    https://lenta.ru/news/2020/02/12/mig41/

    I wonder what the final concept for the 41 will be. I suspect a lifting body design with small stub wings (like the starfighter but with much more rear biased wings) at speed the wings might fold slightly up to have a tailplane effect and increase lateral stability......either the wings or the wing tips
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4460
    Points : 4456
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:32 am

    1 more squadron to Kamchatka: https://iz.ru/1030814/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/est-tolko-mig-31-tikhii-okean-zakroet-eskadrilia-perekhvatchikov

    George1, dino00 and LMFS like this post

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1435
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:00 pm

    And the MiG lasts: work has begun to increase the service life of the interceptor

    They plan to extend the flight life of supersonic aircraft by more than a third


    The legendary MiG-31 will get a second life. Sources in the military-industrial complex and the military department told Izvestia that the issue of extending their service life by several thousand flight hours is currently being studied. This will allow the world's most powerful interceptor to be used for at least another ten years. It can destroy any aerial targets - from drones and cruise missiles to hypersonic aircraft. Also in the arsenal of the "thirty-first" unique missiles Kh-47M2 "Dagger".

    Experts believe that the resource of the titanium airframe of the aircraft is practically unlimited, and thanks to the modernization, the aircraft will remain relevant for a long time.


    The issue of extending the service life of the MiG-31 supersonic interceptors is being studied, but the final decision will only be made based on the results of research and development work (R&D), sources in the military department and the military-industrial complex told Izvestia. R&D work has already begun to extend the life of the upgraded MiG-31BM fighter-interceptors.

    According to the schedule (a copy is available to Izvestia), the project will be carried out in two stages. By the end of 2021, trials are planned to confirm the airframe's resource of 3 thousand flight hours. Next year, they want to bring it to 3.5 thousand.

    The end of the ROC is scheduled for August 2022. All MiG-31BMs in service were built in the late 1980s - early 1990s.Their service life is limited to 2.5 thousand flight hours. Extending it by a thousand hours will allow the interceptors to remain in service until at least the mid-2030s
    . By that time, the MiGs will become one of the oldest types of combat aircraft in service with the Russian Aerospace Forces.

    In 2018, the UEC - Perm Motors company announced that it was ready to quickly resume the production of key components and assemblies of the unique D-30F6 engines installed on the MiG-31. This is necessary to maintain the combat readiness of the aircraft after the increase in service life. According to the company, the available stocks of aircraft engines and repair kits for them are enough to operate the MiG-31 in the Aerospace Forces for another 30-40 years.

    In order to fully replace the MiG-31 in the Aerospace Forces, it is planned to create a "Perspective Aircraft Complex for Long-Range Interception" (PAK DP, also known as the MiG-41). In July 2017, RSK MiG reported that the company is proactively developing a concept project on this topic. Last year, Ilya Tarasenko, General Director of JSC RSK MiG, told the media that joint work with the military on the technical specifications of the new complex is still ongoing. Its planned schedules and expected specifications have not yet been released.

    A significant extension of the service life of the modernized MiG-31 will allow them to remain in service until a full replacement is created. As noted by the developers, the PAK DP will be made using fundamentally new technologies and materials.


    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1038711/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/i-dlitsia-mig-nachaty-raboty-po-uvelicheniiu-sroka-sluzhby-perekhvatchika

    KH-47M2 don't exist, it was a journalist mistake repeatedly ad nauseum... What a surprise Mig 31 is not moribund as the CEO of Mig wanted the MoD to believe

    LMFS likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25952
    Points : 26498
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:29 pm

    They checked the SR-71s for cracking after several years of use only to find regular very high speed flight is actually good for the material (titanium) and that it actually gets better with use.

    I would think upgrades to the MiG-31 would include replacing heavy stainless steel parts with much lighter titanium parts and perhaps high temperature resistant aluminium stuff they are developing... they can probably shave quite a lot of weight off these aircraft while improving their ability to resist high temperatures at high speeds.

    Of course electronic upgrades will also dramatically reduce weight and improve performance as well...

    the old MiG-31s probably had a lot of old computer hardware plus lots of cooling stuff to keep it working.... the newer stuff will be much smaller and lighter and more compact and the cooling stuff much smaller and more efficient...

    dino00 likes this post

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1435
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:They checked the SR-71s for cracking after several years of use only to find regular very high speed flight is actually good for the material (titanium) and that it actually gets better with use.

    I would think upgrades to the MiG-31 would include replacing heavy stainless steel parts with much lighter titanium parts and perhaps high temperature resistant aluminium stuff they are developing... they can probably shave quite a lot of weight off these aircraft while improving their ability to resist high temperatures at high speeds.

    Of course electronic upgrades will also dramatically reduce weight and improve performance as well...

    the old MiG-31s probably had a lot of old computer hardware plus lots of cooling stuff to keep it working.... the newer stuff will be much smaller and lighter and more compact and the cooling stuff much smaller and more efficient...

    Russia will operate the 2 best interceptors at the same time...why would the Russian MoD develop another interceptor if they had so little modernization potential?
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1951
    Points : 1951
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  LMFS on Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:They checked the SR-71s for cracking after several years of use only to find regular very high speed flight is actually good for the material (titanium) and that it actually gets better with use.

    Titanium is like good wine then Razz

    Do you know why does it "improve" over time?

    I would think upgrades to the MiG-31 would include replacing heavy stainless steel parts with much lighter titanium parts and perhaps high temperature resistant aluminium stuff they are developing... they can probably shave quite a lot of weight off these aircraft while improving their ability to resist high temperatures at high speeds.

    Good point. When they told about this new aluminium alloy I thought this could be a great application, but assumed they were not going to put more effort into the MiG-31... it is great to see they indeed opt for a most reasonable approach now. The air vehicle of the MiG-31 is something nobody else has, and that will continue to be a huge advantage for Russia for a long while. And as you say, new materials and stuffing would rise the plane to another level of performance. They could increase the temperature tolerance of the engines for faster flight, improve massively the radar (which is today apparently less advanced than Irbis-E) etc. In fact that is just what they need to do, if they want to test the technologies for the PAK-DP. Now they have 3D printing technologies they should be also capable of reworking the airframes (which have been modified several times and often do not match 100% the documentation) much faster, with materials and shapes of higher performance. When they created the Su-35 they also took the opportunity to seriously increase the fuel capacity... what the MiG-31 is missing is time and effort invested in improving it, to the point the PAK-DP seems unnecessary for long while... but this is good, because it will take a long time to develop it.

    dino00 wrote:Russia will operate the 2 best interceptors at the same time...why would the Russian MoD develop another interceptor if they had so little modernization potential?

    It is a bit like Tu-160M and PAK-DA, or Su-35 and PAK-FA: you hedge against problems in the high-risk program by creating a foldback plan based on the evolution of an already existing product... which frequently is so good that it removes the hurry to introduce the more advanced one, which in turn allows to make it more advanced, cheaper and more reliable. This is how realistic and reasonable program management works, because highly inovative development is ALWAYS associated with delays. The approach of eliminating any other option so that it becomes impossible to cancel a program, no matter how disastrous, is "worst practice" and is only applied where crooks rule (you now what country I am thinking of Wink )
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4460
    Points : 4456
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:56 pm

    Do you know why does it "improve" over time?
    tiny cracks in the skin through which fuel leaked got welded together & rivet heads got flattened with high temperatures from air friction.
    I've read it here: https://www.amazon.com/Sled-Driver-Flying-Worlds-Fastest/dp/0929823087/ref=sr_1_36?dchild=1&keywords=SR-71&qid=1595530266&s=books&sr=1-36

    LMFS likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25952
    Points : 26498
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:40 am

    Russia will operate the 2 best interceptors at the same time...why would the Russian MoD develop another interceptor if they had so little modernization potential?

    There is potential for different uses for the MiG-31 and MiG-41... both will be fast, but the MiG-41 is a fair way off yet and wont be super cheap so will likely be gradually put into service.

    I suspect the Roscosmos might buy some MiG-31s and later MiG-41s for some experimental light satellite launching work, but the MiG-41 will be like the MiG-9 in the sense that it will be the first step into very fast aircraft technology where the airframe will need to be of new materials because of heat issues and the engines will be of a new design working at normal speeds and also speeds much higher than normal turbojet engines will work.

    Just because they will be putting the MiG-41s in to service as fast as they can get them, the MiG-31 will still be a useful interceptor and Kinzhal launcher.

    New avionics developed for the MiG-41 could be tested in the MiG-31 and once it works well sharing systems and equipment across the two aircraft will reduce costs and increase commonality.

    Titanium is like good wine then Razz

    Do you know why does it "improve" over time?

    Conventional metals tend to get stress induced cracks... sometimes microscopic, that weakens the structure and risks sudden failure.... which is bad.

    tiny cracks in the skin through which fuel leaked got welded together & rivet heads got flattened with high temperatures from air friction.
    I've read it here

    With flights up to mach 3.2 and then back down to room temperatures tempered the metal and in a way eliminated the stress cracks, so over time the metal became better and better... exactly like a wine.

    The fuel leaking is another matter... the SR-71 is optimised for extreme speed, so ways of reducing unnecessary weight included using the same structure as the new MiG-29M2/35 so rather than having a bladder fuel tank or a separate fuel container, the sections were sealed so with tubes an area could be used as a fuel tank without the extra weight of an actual tank.

    That means the external skin of the aircraft is also the skin of the fuel tank and with an aircraft like an SR-71 where mach 3.2 flight speeds heats the outer skin of the aircraft to very high temperatures then that creates a problem. When metal is heated it expands. A full sized SR-71 will expand about 30cm in length at top speed... but that means when it is sitting on the runway and room temperature there are gaps in the skin... gaps for the metal to expand so it doesn't buckle or pop apart at high speed. The aircraft is over 20m long and the expansion is only about 30cm so we are not talking about inch sized gaps but they are mms gaps and when the aircraft is sitting on the ground it needs constant topping up because the fuel leaks out between the panel joins while it is on the ground... normally the aircraft will take off and the first thing it will do is hook up with a tanker and fill the tanks beyond its take off mass will allow and then it will go to full AB and climb and accelerate... once it is going fast enough the gaps close and it stops haemorrhaging fuel.

    The fuel has a very high flash point... I believe it is called JP-5 or something... even a burning cigarette dropped in a pool of this stuff wont burn.

    When they created the Su-35 they also took the opportunity to seriously increase the fuel capacity... what the MiG-31 is missing is time and effort invested in improving it, to the point the PAK-DP seems unnecessary for long while... but this is good, because it will take a long time to develop it.

    The MiG-25 was made on the cheap so that it was both affordable to make and relatively easy to work on.... it burned fuel like an Abrams... you need to be an oil exporter to operate it, but that was fine... its performance was unique. The MiG-31 had a lot more composites and aluminium in places not effected by heat, and more titanium in places that were but it was still a heavy aircraft. Making the airframe lighter and adding more fuel would dramatically improve performance without making them too expensive.


    It is a bit like Tu-160M and PAK-DA, or Su-35 and PAK-FA: you hedge against problems in the high-risk program by creating a foldback plan based on the evolution of an already existing product... which frequently is so good that it removes the hurry to introduce the more advanced one, which in turn allows to make it more advanced, cheaper and more reliable.

    They are just one country under sanctions... they can't afford to introduce next gen stuff in every area at once, but splitting the load where some are working on next gen from scratch new stuff while others work on upgrades to eliminate all the problems and improve performance as far as possible with the existing design has worked well from them in every area.

    This is how realistic and reasonable program management works, because highly inovative development is ALWAYS associated with delays. The approach of eliminating any other option so that it becomes impossible to cancel a program, no matter how disastrous, is "worst practice" and is only applied where crooks rule (you now what country I am thinking of Wink )

    To be fair the Zumwalt and Ford Class and LCS and even F-35 were ambitious programmes... their problem was that there was no plan B in fact to avoid alternatives all plan Bs were sabotaged... so tooling for F-14s gone, second engine type for F-35 eliminated and not funded etc etc... if they had installed the EM cats on an existing type and spent more time trying to work on it to get it right, and perhaps done the same with Zumwalts gun and made some of the innovations stage 2 or stage 3 developments things might have been different...

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6115
    Points : 6266
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:21 am

    The publication writes that all the MiG-31BMs in service were built in the late 1980s - early 1990s and their service life is limited to 2.5 thousand flight hours. The extension of the resource by another 1,000 will allow the use of interceptors until the mid-2030s.
    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 1595584461_1595584440
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1951
    Points : 1951
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  LMFS on Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:when the aircraft is sitting on the ground it needs constant topping up because the fuel leaks out between the panel joins while it is on the ground...

    Shocked

    The fuel has a very high flash point... I believe it is called JP-5 or something... even a burning cigarette dropped in a pool of this stuff wont burn.

    It better had...

    Making the airframe lighter and adding more fuel would dramatically improve performance without making them too expensive.

    A supercruising engine would be the ideal match for the plane, technology should be available for it once izd. 30 is ready. I guess that would be rather used in the PAK-DP, but who knows. A first step would be an enlarged version of izd. 30 for the MiG-31, a second one a VCE with quasi-ramjet operation mode that could be used up to ca. 4 M as we know from similar developments based on the YF120 engine. That would massively increase its combat radius. I even think it is not as silly as it may seem despite the massive costs and efforts involved, because such improvement in operational characteristics means you can actually save many airframes to accomplish the same missions.

    They are just one country under sanctions... they can't afford to introduce next gen stuff in every area at once, but splitting the load where some are working on next gen from scratch new stuff while others work on upgrades to eliminate all the problems and improve performance as far as possible with the existing design has worked well from them in every area.

    They would do the same in US if they were half normal, this is just how development works... the know how that you have on the old proven product is priceless, and with relatively little investment you get great cost reductions and function improvements. Creating a high risk program without solid risk mitigations strategies like this is just silly.

    if they had installed the EM cats on an existing type and spent more time trying to work on it to get it right, and perhaps done the same with Zumwalts gun and made some of the innovations stage 2 or stage 3 developments things might have been different...

    Totally. They had the best conditions thinkable to keep their advantage, so decided it was best to squander them and just fill their pockets... and they can't blame Russians for that Very Happy

    magnumcromagnon wrote:The publication writes that all the MiG-31BMs in service were built in the late 1980s - early 1990s and their service life is limited to 2.5 thousand flight hours. The extension of the resource by another 1,000 will allow the use of interceptors until the mid-2030s.

    By now it seems to be just a very limited action to restore the life of the airframes. It is thinkable that they get beyond that, once they agree on the requirements for PAK-DP and can understand what role MiG-31 can play in reducing technological risk of the solutions to be implemented.

    Sponsored content

    MiG-31BM Interceptor: News - Page 28 Empty Re: MiG-31BM Interceptor: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:16 am