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    BUK SAM system Thread

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    Austin

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    Post  Austin Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:31 am

    Guess its not surprising some time back they showed drawing of BUK-M3 on truck with VLS launcher.

    I hope they release the specs officially at MAKS this year
    TheArmenian
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    Post  TheArmenian Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:34 am

    Austin wrote:Cool , Looks like BUK-M3 is a VLS system now.
    I am not sure about that.
    By looking at launcher elevating mechanism, I would say it is not VLS.
    We will have to wait for a final answer.
    As for the number of tubes, I would say 2 rows of five missiles, but we need a better picture.

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    Post  Austin Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:38 am

    BUK SAM system Thread - Page 3 Img_9710

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    Post  TheArmenian Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:40 am

    That is the missile reloads transporter. Not the launch vehicle.
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    Post  medo Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:02 pm

    It seems Buk-M3 will be developed from Buk-M2 with new missiles placed in containers. Maybe those missiles will be the same as those Russian navy will use on Grigorovich class frigates Buk VLS. I wonder if Buk-M3 will use same PESA radar as Buk-M2 or it will be newer AESA.

    Is Buk-M2 still in production for Russian army or they wait for Buk-M3?
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    Post  Austin Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:42 pm

    The cannister itself is an indication its a VLS launcher , The tubes are wodden round that are sealed and cannisterised

    These would be cold launched sytem launched vertically , IF these were like previous system they would have been on rails like BUK-M2
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    Post  Viktor Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:27 am

    I believe it is not VLS but standard BUK with more missiles all in containers.

    Here is one more picture. Check the lower right corner.

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    Post  xeno Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:55 am

    good picture. BUK M3 is not VLS.
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    Post  Austin Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:08 am

    Do we have picture of the BUK pictures/chart behind the model ?
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:08 am

    The fact that they are using launch tubes suggests commonality with the VLS naval systems.

    Whether the land based systems are raised to actually vertical or just near vertical for launch is not actually that important... these missiles are medium range and are not short range point defence quick reaction missiles.

    The question is, are these missiles Shtil-1 missiles in the same container/launcher tubes as the naval model, or are they new developments?

    It would make a lot of sense for there to be unification between Army and Navy missiles in terms of missiles and sensors and systems to reduce costs and get better value for money.

    If the Army can get away with using launchers that don't raise the missiles all the way to vertical for launch then that has ramifications in terms of potential to fire on the move for the launch platforms. I suspect with such a large missile that is only a remote possibility, but then the Army will be interested in the evolved systems which stretch back through the SA-17, SA-11, to the SA-6, which had four, four, and three ready to launch missiles respectively... even assuming two rows of five that is a serious increase in ready to fire missiles for each battery.
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    Post  Austin Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:48 am

    GarryB wrote:The fact that they are using launch tubes suggests commonality with the VLS naval systems.

    Not Really a tube launched is a wodden round that are stored in sealed cannister that increases the longivity of missile and prevents the exposure of the SAM to atmospheric elements.

    Tube launch has nothing to do with Naval or Ground capability.

    The question is, are these missiles Shtil-1 missiles in the same container/launcher tubes as the naval model, or are they new developments?

    Shtil-1 Missile is based on BUK-M2 and Shtil is based on BUK-M1 SAM.

    BUK-M3 from unofficial specs that i have seen is a new missile which has ARH seeker and a range of 70 Km and can intercept MRBM class missile with a range of 1000 km.

    I would still wait for them to release the official specs on BUK-M3 system.

    Yes a non VLS system would allow the Tracked or Wheeled TEL to fire the missile on the move which is a critical feature for any ground forces on the move.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:53 am


    Tube launch has nothing to do with Naval or Ground capability.

    The switch to a container suggests that it is no longer rail launched, which is a significant change for the missile in terms of design. The fact that the naval model is moving to VLS tube storage and launch and now we see a model of the land based missile in a sealed container is important and suggests this new missile is also no longer rail launched.

    Russian ATGMs include rail launched missiles like AT-1, AT-2, and AT-3 types, and also tube launched weapons (AT-4/5/6 etc)... none of which are vertical launch, but adopting a new launch method for air and land launched missiles suggests and change towards commonality that seems to be a goal at the moment.


    Yes a non VLS system would allow the Tracked or Wheeled TEL to fire the missile on the move which is a critical feature for any ground forces on the move.

    I would be more cautious in that area... heavy missiles can damage the launcher if the vehicle hits a bump or lurches during the launch of such a heavy missile... I would expect it would be stationary for launch.
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    Post  medo Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:38 pm

    I would be more cautious in that area... heavy missiles can damage the launcher if the vehicle hits a bump or lurches during the launch of such a heavy missile... I would expect it would be stationary for launch.

    Agree. It will for sure need short stop to launch missile and than continue to go further. It is big success for such system, if the launcher could move and guide missile to the target, considering this missile will need some time to rich target 50 km away.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:45 am

    Yes, mobility will be increased, but launching would warrant a short stop.

    Of course having said that mobility is a good thing but even fairly old aircraft radars had functions to detect and track moving targets on the ground, so continuously moving is not a good thing either.

    When a vehicle does something to betray its position like scan for targets with a radar, or launch a huge missile, then moving to another location quickly is a very good idea, but driving around all the time can make you visible to the enemy too.

    Ask any hunter and often the first thing you are scanning for is movement... or should I say the first thing you see/the first thing that draws your attention to things that are hiding is movement.
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    Post  medo Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:33 pm

    True, but Buk is intended to protect ground forces units, so its moving also depend on moving of protected unit itself. When protected unit is on marsh, Buk is on the marsh with it. Bite when unit is stationary, than Buk moves are limited in changing positions.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:51 am

    The BUK would not be protecting one unit, they would likely have a brigade or group of brigades to protect and would more accurately be protecting the ground being covered by those brigades.

    As the friendly forces move the Buk batteries would move... but strategically and certainly not all at once to ensure proper coverage... but you already know that. Smile
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    Post  medo Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:29 pm

    Of course we know that. Fire, while battery is on move, is still important plus in defending large units in case of attack, because batteries on the move could still engage attacking planes together with batteries on defending positions and still keep moving on their defending positions to cover protected units.
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    Post  TR1 Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:15 am

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    9C36 radar, with the 22 meter mast.
    Target RCS 1m2-2m2 : 120km detection range if target is 3km high, 30-35km if target is 10-15 meters high.
    10 target tracking, 4 engaged at one time.
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    Post  Viktor Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:03 pm

    Excellent pictures TR1.

    And excellent specs from low attitude 9S36 PESA. Old Kupol radar has also received upgrades so its newest iteration detects RCS-1-2m2

    at 160km. Interesting enough as Russia operates 7 brigades of BUK-M1 I bet west was happy to see its capabilities diminish in

    21st century air defense arena. As a highly reliable AD system and extremely mobile, BUK-M1 can go and disappear and reappear where it

    wants to. With the new modernization BUK-M1-2 Russia can upgrade existing BUK-M1 thus vastly improving its air defense capability.

    Number of guidance channels was doubled per battalion, ECM vastly increased, new missile with new ranges, increased low altitude

    acquisition and engagement etc. With the introduction of BUK-M2 and as we saw BUK-M3 situation is only getting worst for the "west".

    Modernized Kupol radar

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:20 am

    do we have any Buk-M3 deliveries?
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    Post  Viktor Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:41 am

    New models of BUK-M2 with 6 missiles. Interesting thing is that missiles are now stored in tubes.

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    Post  TheArmenian Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:48 am

    Nice find Viktor.
    Are you sure its M2 and not M3?
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    Post  Viktor Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:02 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Nice find Viktor.
    Are you sure its M2 and not M3?
    Im not sure. But based on what I saw, I think this could be further modernization of BUK-M2 with perhaps technology from BUK-M3.
    As I remember, models of BUK-M3 have more missiles per TELAR.

    Yup 12 missiles per TELAR: Here is the picture.

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    Post  TheArmenian Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:06 pm

    Thanks.
    I hope MAKS-2013 will clarify things. But, I am afraid (as per previous shows) it will raise more questions than provide answers.
    We will see.
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    Post  Viktor Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:07 pm

    Pictures from BUK-M2 simulator


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