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    BUK SAM system Thread

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:58 am

    The thing is that SAMs are not launched from behind the objects they are intercepting... they don't need higher speed to chase down their targets...

    Quite often the SAMs are the first targets of the objects they have to shoot down and the things around the SAMs that the SAMs are there to protect is their next targets... so effectively the SAM does not need to be massively faster than the targets it engages... though having said that high speed can be useful in getting to an intercept point on time to be able to do something about a threat.

    Effectively TOR is intended for both shooting down Hellfire missiles before they hit the TOR vehicle or the armoured vehicles the TOR system is protecting, and also the helicopter launching the Hellfire missiles... and Tunguska is pretty much for doing the same thing... it is no accident that TOR had a range of 12km and 2S6M1 has a range of 10km with missiles.

    The range of enemy ATGMs is increasing and Russian air defence vehicles are getting better to compensate... Spike extended long range with a range of 32km... Pantsir SM with a range of 40km.

    Pantsir SM uses a hypersonic solid rocket booster to accelerate the missile itself to extended distances so it can effectively glide or coast for 20-30km and then engage targets 40km away.... it will probably be lofted into the air and dive down on the target like a top attack missile...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:08 pm

    Buk-M1

    BUK SAM system Thread - Page 19 Eb9h5boUcAAydhP?format=jpg&name=large
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:28 pm

    Buk m3 is proposed for export : 65km against 2m2 rcs target. 20km against BM. Only 12km against hovering helicopters.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/air-defense-systems-and-mounts/%22Viking%22%20%289K317ME%29/

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:45 am

    Regarding the helicopters, it probably has more to do with their altitude and blending in with the terrain around them by not moving...

    Ironically a hovering helicopter at low level is a difficult target for radar guided missiles, but a sitting duck for a 57mm gun...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 am

    It has more to do with doppler effect that works only on moving object.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:40 am

    12 missiles on the firing unit, 6 on the telar, ARH missiles and an elevated radar. Big improvement over buk-m2 in terms of number of engagement at the same time.

    BUK SAM system Thread - Page 19 Eg3nyh10

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:21 pm

    It has more to do with doppler effect that works only on moving object.

    Doppler effect is used to determine the flight direction and speed of a target by the effect of the movement of the target on the signal returned from the radar... a closing target has a different effect from a receding one...

    If the BUK used doppler radars for search and tracking and doppler radar didn't work on things that weren't moving then it wouldn't be able to shoot down hovering helicopters at any distance.

    12 missiles on the firing unit, 6 on the telar, ARH missiles and an elevated radar. Big improvement over buk-m2 in terms of number of engagement at the same time.

    Also the tubes mean the missiles themselves are better protected from weather and the elements and handling them should be easier too.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:12 pm

    Hmm 9M317ME still appears to be a SARH. The active one were supposed to have designation of 9M317MA where A denotes "Aktivnaya" or Active. Maybe the export would have the designation MEA or MAE.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:18 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Hmm 9M317ME still appears to be a SARH.  The active one were supposed to have designation of 9M317MA where A denotes "Aktivnaya" or Active.  Maybe the export would have the designation MEA or MAE.

    The point of the M3 is to use active radar missiles which allow reaching further because SARH missile were limited by the targeting radar range.

    With SARH missile it is just a M2.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:23 pm

    Isos wrote:

    The point of the M3 is to use active radar missiles which allow reaching further because SARH missile were limited by the targeting radar range.

    With SARH missile it is just a M2.

    So do you mean the 9M317ME for BukM3 is not the same missile as one for Shtil ?

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:46 pm

    On their website you can see they give the shtill launched missile 45km and for the export buk m3 known as the Viking they say 70km.

    They use this missile but with an active seeker for the buk M3.

    So no they are two different missiles.

    Shtill will probably get this new ARH missile too as an upgrade.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:49 pm

    http://roe.ru/eng/press-service/press-releases/rosoboronexport-starts-market-promotion-of-the-viking-air-defence-missile-systems/


    ROSOBORONEXPORT STARTS MARKET PROMOTION OF THE ‘VIKING’ AIR DEFENCE MISSILE SYSTEMS
    28.03.2018 Press release

    JSC Rosoboronexport (part of the Rostec State Corporation) is starting the promotion to the foreign markets of the newest air defence missile system (ADMS) ‘Viking’ (a ‘Buk-M3’ type ADMS).

    “That’s good news for us and our foreign partners. The ‘Viking’ complex preserves the best characteristics of the famous line of the ‘Buk’ air defence missile systems and represents the milestone in the development of the medium-range ADMS. The producers allotted unique characteristics to it, which are in line with the current requirements in the area of force and infrastructure protection from the strikes of present-day and future air assault weapons in conditions of radio-electronic countermeasures and firing. The ‘Viking’ has no countertypes today in the world armaments market,” said Rosoboronexport’s Deputy Director General Sergey Ladygin.

    The multimissile highly mobile medium-range air defence missile system ‘Viking’ is the next step in the development of the famous ‘Kub’ - ‘Buk’ ADMS line. In comparison with the ‘Buk-M2E’ ADMS, its range of fire has increased nearly by 1.5 times – up to 65 kilometers. Besides, the number of simultaneously fired targets has also increased by 1.5 times, which is 6 by each self-propelled launching installation, and the number of ready-for-launch air defence guided missiles in one firing position made of two combat units has grown up from 8 to 18.

    ADMS ‘Viking’ has received a number of unique features, which were not previously available in any air defence missile system. For instance, it has a capability of integrating launchers from the ‘Antei-2500’ ADMS, which provides for the capability of target engagement at a distance up to 130 kilometers and will boost the efficiency of the whole AD grouping in the fight against enemy’s pilot-controlled aviation.

    The ‘Viking’ was developed and designed with the account of the world market trends. Its technical characteristics allow the system to be adapted to the greatest possible extent for the priorities of Rosoboronexport’s foreign customers. The combat control station of the ‘Viking’ has a possibility of integration with the organic radar system as well as with other radars, including the ones produced outside Russia, but possessing required characteristics. Besides, the ADMS envisages a capability of the autonomous use of the firing sections and even separate self-propelled firing installations, which enlarges the total defended area and increases the number of covered sites. In addition, it helps to minimize the expenses for the air defence configuration set up.

    “Commissioned by the Russian Armed Forced ‘Buk-M3’ system and its export version ‘Viking’ have proved a very high level of combat efficiency during their daily operation and exercises. The ‘Viking’ has a very high kill probability in relation to enemy’s aviation, attacking elements of precision-guided munitions, as well as tactical ballistic missiles, maritime and ground targets,” added Sergey Ladygin.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:45 pm

    Isos wrote:On their website you can see they give the shtill launched missile 45km and for the export buk m3 known as the Viking they say 70km.

    They use this missile but with an active seeker for the buk M3.

    So no they are two different missiles.

    Shtill will probably get this new ARH missile too as an upgrade.

    and my question is why they designate the missile as "9M317ME" ? While the new active missile was "9M317MA" Wont this new missile be designated as "9M317MAE" ? So that at least there are no confusion.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:55 pm

    Those who make such posters take the images from google and have no idea what they are doing. Probably a mistake.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:21 pm

    Isos wrote:Those who make such posters take the images from google and have no idea what they are doing. Probably a mistake.

    No. That appears from the presentation of the Shtil. and this is the brochure of the 9M317ME.

    BUK SAM system Thread - Page 19 Message-editor%2F1522455913682-image-161

    BUK SAM system Thread - Page 19 VL%2B9M317ME%2BSHTIL-3


    The missile with ARH is designated as "9M317MA"

    https://en.topwar.ru/168498-sistemy-pvo-v-rf-zrk-buk.html

    article wrote:
    9M317M missiles is a single-stage solid-fuel rocket, made according to the normal aerodynamic scheme. The length of the rocket is 5180 mm, the diameter of the hull is 360 mm, the range of the rudders is 820 mm. Due to the fact that the rocket is equipped with a more powerful dual-mode engine with increased operating time, the controlled flight range of 9M317M has been increased to 70 km. Reach in height - 35 km, flight speed - 1550 m / s. The missile is delivered and stored in an airtight transport and launch container, completely ready for combat use, and does not require on-board equipment inspections during the entire specified period of operation.

    At the main stage of the flight, the rocket is controlled by an autopilot with correction for radio signals, and when approaching the target, a semi-active Doppler radar homing head with an integrated on-board computer is used. However, this guidance method requires radar illumination at the final stage, which significantly unmasks the air defense systems and limits the range of use of the radio horizon. To eliminate this drawback, the 9M317MA missile system with an active homing radar was developed. The use of missiles with ARGS makes it possible to fire with off-load tap-changers, which greatly increases the survivability of the division. The characteristics of the ARGSN used on the 9M317MA rocket make it possible to capture a target with an EPR of 0,3 m² at a distance of up to 35 km.


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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:57 am

    At the other end of the missile it clearly uses thrust vectoring for flight control, you can see the four bits sticking down from the missile to hold the control surfaces that sit in the rocket exhaust to deflect it and manouver the missile...

    Traditionally the naval missiles have been cherry picked from army and air force based equivalents, so the Army Osa and TOR is used, and also Pantsir and of course BUK and S-300 and older missiles too.

    The naval version is generally different from the land based equivalent but not enormously different... not unique.

    The Rif and Rif-M were the 90km and 150km range S-300Fs, they have not shown newer big missiles than that on their ships, yet the Shtil seemed for a while to be more advanced than the land based BUK equivalent... though the BUK has clearly caught up... normally the reverse is true.

    The TOR was in service for quite some time on land before it was fully operational at sea... I seem to remember the Udaloy class ships being at sea for a couple of years before they got their EO and radar mounts for their TOR systems.

    To be fair the TOR has a very sophisticated 3D search radar and was designed from the outset to track and kill very small targets including incoming missiles like Hellfire or TOW or Maverick... very expensive detection and guidance but super cheap command guided missiles.
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    Post  Sujoy on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:16 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:they have specialized EW brigades, elctromagnetic emitters/modulators , dedicated decoys, radar/IR opaque camonets, multispectral area masking systems, hardened egression and coverage structures
    Are all these added systems part of the S-400 export versions? For instance the S-400 units exported to China? Or the S-400 that we will receive probably from next year onward?

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