Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+66
ALAMO
Autodestruct
owais.usmani
Krepost
pukovnik7
Mir
PhSt
marcellogo
RTN
TMA1
lyle6
mnztr
Arrow
Rodion_Romanovic
LMFS
Hole
dino00
chinggis
Teshub
PTURBG
Singular_Transform
Labrador
kumbor
Tsavo Lion
verkhoturye51
SeigSoloyvov
hoom
Tingsay
flamming_python
KiloGolf
miketheterrible
Benya
berhoum
Big_Gazza
PapaDragon
franco
zg18
andalusia
JohninMK
max steel
Isos
GunshipDemocracy
ExBeobachter1987
sepheronx
Cyberspec
ult
George1
type055
kvs
KomissarBojanchev
Stealthflanker
magnumcromagnon
navyfield
redgiacomo
Mike E
Hachimoto
AlfaT8
Mindstorm
TR1
Austin
Admin
TheArmenian
GarryB
runaway
Russian Patriot
Viktor
70 posters

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    marcellogo
    marcellogo


    Posts : 534
    Points : 540
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 54
    Location : Italy

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Post  marcellogo Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:45 am

    A small correction: Stirling engines are steam powered so they are not noisy at all.

    Problem with most of AIP is that they are a third propulsion system added to the other two already present in a conventional submarine i.e. battery and diesel.
    Obviously there is more than a way to skin a cat: some other AIP system like old Walter and Mesma powerpacks could be used instead of conventional diesels.
    They were in the end discarded because the fuel cells were in the end more efficient and ABOVE ALL safer.
    New high capacity batteries could revert the trend and Spain has so revamped Mesma tech.
    TMA1
    TMA1


    Posts : 804
    Points : 808
    Join date : 2020-11-30

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Post  TMA1 Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:51 pm

    Yeah Russia was working on AIP tech I think involving diesel and oxygen? Could be wrong. Thry have not utilized it. I agree that using more advanced battery packs could solve the problem and I think Russia has actually started developing these kinds of cells, not sure though.

    But since Russia has a vast nuclear fleet and the diesel subs stay closer to shore and I'm guessing AIP tech was not seen as necessary.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 35307
    Points : 35831
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:36 pm

    But since Russia has a vast nuclear fleet and the diesel subs stay closer to shore and I'm guessing AIP tech was not seen as necessary.

    Being quiet and a technology with a lot of applications in a lot of areas it is probably seen as very useful and desirable, but as you point out they have nukes which is the ultimate AIP, if a bit expensive and a little noisy in comparison to an all electric drive system.

    When the Russian AIP is fully operational the size of the diesels can be dramatically reduced to emergency energy supply so it wont be exactly the same as having three propulsion systems.

    The idea with the Russian AIP is that the hydrogen is extracted directly from hydrocarbons but oxygen is also needed for the process where hydrogen is fed from one side of the system which oxidises with oxygen to form heat and electricity and the byproduct is water plus solid carbon.

    In comparison the same fuel and oxygen going through the diesel engines also produces heat and water but it also produces carbon monoxide which is highly toxic and bad for the environment. In comparison solid carbon can be dumped safely with no risk to the planet or animals, though you could also store it and use the carbon to make useful products too.

    The advantage of the Russian system is that all the infrastructure for supplying ships with diesel fuel is already present in almost every port on the planet and liquid oxygen can be produced at the pier with an electricity supply plus water.

    For something more exotic like an airship you could use diesel enigines as the backup electricity supply, solar panels... taking advantage of its enormous surface area, so you would need batteries to store solar power as it is collected. The propulsion itself could be electric motors with propellers in propulsion pods for manouverability. The structure could be super light and super strong and super fire resistent carbon fibres and composites and the ballast could be water that the fuel cell could convert to lifting hydrogen when lift was needed, or water ballast together with heat when that was required meaning venting would not be needed as much which makes operation cheaper because it is more of a closed cycle and more efficient.

    Sadly the sight of the Hindenberg burning has coloured peoples view of airships as being dangerous... they are when you make them out of the stuff we make smokeless gunpowder out of... the skin of the hindenberg was combustible with an inside structure that consisted of bags filled with flammable hydrogen with pockets of air in between... the worst possible mix of fuel and oxygen, wrapped in a gunpowder skin. Replace the gunpowder skin with carbon fibre and nomex and composites that don't burn, and fill the gaps between the hydrogen bags with nitrogen and you could put a dozen burning road flares inside the thing and nothing would happen except some scorch marks. Hydrogen needs oxygen to burn. When it does burn it burns with an invisible flame.

    There are a huge number of reasons to continue to develop the Russian hydrogen fuel cell technology, but so that it can be fitted to a sub is probably not one of them.

    Improved fuel cell technology and high speed charging technology probably make fuel cell and other air independent power supplies redundant... except nukes of course...

    A small 1 metre by 1 metre by 4 or 5 metre long nuclear battery like those used for their new laser systems (truck or aircraft mounted) could be something, but they were also toying with sea bed nuclear power stations where Russia subs could moor to these underwater NPP presumably to recharge mid mission for perhaps half an hour to an hour and then continue on fully charged without making a lot of noise and not needing diesels or AIPs making their subs much much cheaper... you could have active defences around your charging stations like torpedo nets and even mines and other protections to prevent access by enemy subs or to prevent the sites being easily attacked.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total

    AMCXXL and TMA1 like this post

    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 1897
    Points : 1941
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Post  mnztr Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:20 am

    Problem with AIP is you need an oxydizer. So even if you use ammonia to store the hydrogen, you need to get oxygen. You can use Hydrogen Peroxide I suppose. you have sizable tanks of Hydrogen Peroxide and Ammonia on the sub. I guess you could use a outerhull+bladder to store them safely. One enticement of Lithium ion is it can be retrofitted into existing hulls and massively increase the capability of older subs.

    AMCXXL likes this post

    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL


    Posts : 781
    Points : 781
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Post  AMCXXL Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:15 pm

    TMA1 wrote:
    Yeah Russia was working on AIP tech I think involving diesel and oxygen? Could be wrong. Thry have not utilized it. I agree that using more advanced battery packs could solve the problem and I think Russia has actually started developing these kinds of cells, not sure though.

    But since Russia has a vast nuclear fleet and the diesel subs stay closer to shore and I'm guessing AIP tech was not seen as necessary.

    The way I see it, the 677 submarines will be placed in the Northern and Pacific fleet precisely to help or escort the SSBNs that have to leave from the bases in the open sea and that is where the enemy can try to attack them.

    It seems to me a good submarine and of a very reasonable size
    Although they have taken more than a decade in the tests of the first of the series, it seems that they have managed to progress

    By comparison, look at what happened with the Spanish S-80 submarines, which were announced in 1998 to enter in 2003-2005, supposedly they were going to be "almost-SSN's" and they have been delayed and failed for 20 years, it had to be extended the hull at 81 meters and the first example does not even have the AIP fuel cells until first repairs stop in ten years

    GarryB, Hole, TMA1 and Broski like this post


    Sponsored content


    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 25 Empty Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:22 am