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    Project 677: Lada class submarine

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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Admin Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:03 pm

    Admiralty Shipyards have deposited RF Navy the first production class submarine Lada in 2013 and 2015

    PETERSBURG, October 12. (ITAR-TASS). Admiralty Shipyards (part of the Western Shipbuilding Center, the United Shipbuilding Corporation) will hand RF Navy the first production class submarine Lada in 2013 and 2015, reported on Oct. 10 CEO Vladimir Alexandrov at the press conference at the Central Naval Museum Petersburg.

    October 10 Nevsky harbor left class submarine Lada (project 877) and went to the southern Baltic to the final stage of the factory running tests. This is an important event in the production of the enterprise of its staff and sailors of the Navy timed in the 65-th anniversary of the Hero of Russia the head of the Admiralty Shipyards Vladimir Alexandrov.

    According to Director General, during the trials will test the main power plant, hydroacoustic complex weapons systems. On this fourth-generation boat used about 130 of the latest experimental design systems.

    At present, in varying stages of construction at the Admiralty Shipyards are submarines called "Kronstadt and Sevastopol. They constitute the Navy, respectively, in 2013 and 2015.

    http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=76645&cid=25
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Viktor Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:29 am

    Thats way off timeline... not good. I was hopping faster introduction will speed up international sales.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Russian Patriot Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:20 pm

    Ok Vladimir, I noticed a error its Project 677 not 877:

    Project 677 Lada class
    Project 1650 Amur class
    Diesel-Electric Torpedo Submarine
    The construction of the Project-677, or Lada-class diesel submarine, named the St. Petersburg, began in 1997 and involved a unique design developed by the Rubin design bureau. The submarine (Lada = harmony), whose export version is known as the Amur 1650, features a new anti-sonar coating for the hull, an extended cruising range, and advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine weaponry. The new, fourth postwar generation Project 677 Lada class diesel-electric submarine is a successor to the Type 877EKM and Type 636 Kilo-class submarines. The Lada type is significantly smaller (1,600 tons D/W) than the previous Kilo type submarines (2,325 tons D/W), and generally configured for anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare, minelaying and special forces deployment.

    The Project 1650 Amur, intended for export, is part of the same project and differ only in customer requirements and operational conditions. In 1989 the Rubin Marine Design Bureau in St. Petersburg was commissioned by the Russian Navy to design a new fourth-generation diesel-electric submarine. Rubin completed design work on a whole family of the Amur diesel-electric submarines with a displacement of 550 to 1,850 tons. The designers adopted essentially the same design and layout solutions for entire submarines and their separate subsystems, using unified or modified equipment.

    The Amur class will also include provisions for a fuel cell plant that can be installed during construction or modernisation to give air independent propulsion with oxygen/hydrogen and electric/ chemical generators. However, the first submarines of the type will not be powered with such a plant. The reason is high cost of air-indipendent power plants, as well as higher level of fire safety required to operate them. The submarines powered with air-indipendent power plants may appear in the market not earlier than by 2003-2004. According to estimates, Kristall-27E AIP system will increase the Amur Class submarines’ submerged endurance by 15 to 45 days (the longer endurance is ensured by a short-term operation of the diesel engine in the snorkeling mode).

    The submarines will have high submerged cruising range and endurance, combat efficiency and reliability, and low acoustic signature. The Amur is intended to be the most advanced export design to date, incorporating many of the signature-reduction technologies proven on the Project 636 Kilo, notably anechoic tile coatings and a skewed seven-bladed propeller. Their sonar equipment includes highly sensitive direct-listening transducers at the forward end and a towed transducer array. It will be outfitted with six torpedo tubes, and its 18 weapons will comprise a mix of torpedoes and torpedo-tube launched missiles. Measuring 67 metres in length and 7.2 metres wide, it will include an anechoic tile coating on the outer hull and a skewed 7-blade propeller. The vessel's surface speed will be 10 kt; submerged 21 kt. The submerged cruising range using economic speed is 500 nautical miles at 3 kt. The maximum diving depth is 250 m, with an endurance of 45 days with a crew of 34.

    In addition:

    acoustic field of the submarine has been considerably reduced (in comparison with submarines of previous generations – several times);
    radio-electronic equipment of a new generation has been installed with a state-of-the-art element base;
    an integrated system has been installed for automatic control of submarine and its combat and technical facilities;
    an inertial navigation complex has been installed which provides safety of navigation and determination of motion parameters with specified missile armament accuracy during long underwater operation;
    a variable-speed propulsion plant of a new design has been fitted;
    a storage battery with increased service life has been installed.
    New types of production and technological processes have been introduced in the course of construction, as follows:

    a work bay has been equipped for production of non-penetrating retractable devices and hoist masts;
    a testing bench has been produced for the above retractable devices and hoist masts;
    a technology of installation of highly sensitive hydrophone antenna of sonar system “LIRA” has been developed and introduced;
    a technology of application has been introduced for anti-sonar coating of a new generation “Molniya” (“Lightning”);
    a technology of painting with “VICOR” of improved stability has been introduced.
    As of mid-1999 no customer had been found for the Amur 1650-class export submarine laid down at Admiralty Shipyard on 26 December 1997, as India had apparently decided it was not interested in the boat. The similar Lada-class (some sources consider this to be a Project 877 boat) Sankt Petersburg was begun the same day at the same facility for the Russian Navy. As of January 2000 the Sankt Petersburg was said to be about 30% complete and the Amur 1650 about 7% complete. As of early 2001 Russian officials were predicting that the Sankt Petersburg would be launched during 2001.

    As of 2002 work on the Sankt Petersburg was suspended.

    The main objectives of the Russian Shipbuilding Agency for 2004 in the military sector included the delivery during the year of the Sankt Petersburg class diesel sub for the Russian and foreign customers; project 11356 frigate; mine sweeper; combat and patrol cutters, specialized and auxiliary ships (fire control, divers’, hydrographic, demagnetizing, floating berths).

    On 28 October 2004 the Sankt Petersburg, honoring the 300th anniversary of the city, was launched at Admiralteyskiye Verfi. The conventionally powered fourth-generation submarine of the Lada project, designed by the Rubin Central Design Bureau, marked the introduction of one of the first submarines specifically built for the Russian Navy since the collapse of the USSR. In 2005 the Russian fleet commissioned two ships, including the conventional submarine Sankt Petersburg of the maiden Project 677.

    In July 2006 Konstantin Lantratov, Reporter for Kommersant Daily, reported that Vladislav Putilin, the deputy chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission, said that under the Russian State Armaments Program for 2007-2015 the Navy would receive six Project 677 Lada diesel-electric submarines.

    In January 2007 St. Petersburg's Admiralty Shipyards said it would soon begin a final round of sea trials of a fourth-generation diesel submarine. At that time a second Lada-class submarine, the Kronshtadt, which was the first in the production series, was also being built at the shipyard and was to be commissioned by the Russian Navy in 2009. A third submarine, whose keel was laid 10 November 2006, was named after a city associated with Russian naval glory - Sevastopol, and was expected to be launched in 2010. On 25 July 2008 it was reported that Navy commander Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky stated that the construction of new-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile and attack submarines is a top priority for the Russian Navy's development. At that time, the construction schedule for the Lada class submarines remained unchanged from 18 months earlier.

    A production rate of 1/year starting with laying down a fourth unit in 2008 would be needed to maintain existing force structure in the face of a plausible Kilo retirement schedule through 2020. Alternately, a building rate of two each year could be initiated after 2015 to achieve the same result, recognizing that the remaining Kilos were built at a rate of about two each year, and thus might also retire at about that rate.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/677.htm
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  runaway Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Lada class, also known as the Amur class which is currently having a few teething troubles.

    The Russians seem to have decided that hydrogen fuel cell technology is too dangerous in a submarine environment and they are currently investing in lithium ion technology to improve underwater performance.

    Personally I think the small compact nuclear power plants they use in space craft would be a much better idea as they are very similar in operation to a battery that is fully charged and will never completely discharge for the life of the vessel.

    Yes, it seems the construction has been at a standstill, as the development is slow. Badly, cause the other major sub manufactorers like Germany and Sweden is selling AIP subs, and has been doing for the past 10 years.

    I hope they construct the 636.3 so that they can implement a section of the new AIP later as it becomes availble!

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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:33 pm

    The situation is a bit like with the new Frigates... to keep up numbers and get numbers into service they are producing the Gorshkov Frigates, but also the Talwar Frigates produced for India but with Russian sensors, systems, propulsion and weapons.
    This will ensure compatibility and ease logistics and maintainence while getting hulls into the water.

    The Lada vessels have been delayed because of problems with propulsion and the sonar... which sounds bad, but you know me... I am a silver lining type of guy... they are having problems because they are new and ambitious and when they get them working they will likely be very good. Until they get them working (they are not planning mass production of the Lada till 2014 AFAIK) the upgraded Kilo is still a very good sub, though no longer state of the art, it can still perform most jobs required.

    Once they have the bugs sorted out on the Lada class they will have an even more capable vessel they can produce in large numbers.

    They are working on a new multi core CPU for military purposes, so by 2014 they should have that available for service perhaps...
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  runaway Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Lada vessels have been delayed because of problems with propulsion and the sonar... which sounds bad, but you know me... I am a silver lining type of guy... they are having problems because they are new and ambitious and when they get them working they will likely be very good. Until they get them working (they are not planning mass production of the Lada till 2014 AFAIK) .

    Guess the trials were disastrous for the mono hull sub:

    "24.11.2011

    Construction program of Project 677 Lada non-nuclear submarines can be suspended, reports Izvestiya referring to a source in Russian Navy Main HQ.

    According to the source, SSK St. Petersburg will not be commissioned into the Navy and remain an experimental prototype.

    Defects of Lada-class submarine – unfinished propulsion plant, sonar, Lithium tactical data system, torpedo TE-2 – make Russian Navy return to submarines of well-proved project Varshavyanka, reports the newspaper.

    According to the source, construction of two Lada-class submarines – Kronshtadt and Sevastopol – was suspended as well in spite of their hulls almost completed."

    Sounds like a real disaster! If they cant design a new type of SSK, but have to return to a 30 year old Soviet design, Kilo, the industri is in shambles.
    And moreover, it will be quite some time before a new design is ready for construction.

    Meanwhile, all competitors are launching new AIP types all over.
    I hate to say it, but russia seems to be some 30 years after in sub propulsion technology!
    This will have serious negative impacts on combat value, as opponents will likely have AIP and can stay submerged for weeks, while the Kilo must snorkel in a matter of a few days.

    Very very bad. Everything should be done in emergency to recover the situation as fast as can be done! For example, copy the Swedish or German AIP and add them as a section to the 636.3!

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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:24 pm

    Sounds like a sky is falling article to me.

    Rubin have said that based on testing they will have an upgraded Project 677M ready for mass production in 2014-2015 and that in the years of testing they have sorted out most of the problems.

    The Sonar is supposed to be the best fitted to a conventional sub anywhere in the world, while the propulsion is of a new design that is not a hydrogen fuel cell, so while it will take a lot of work to get going has the enormous benefit of no mechanical noise (vital for such a sub) but also no need for storing hydrogen on board the sub and therefore also not requiring hydrogen handling facilities at every Russian navy base... which would be an enormous fire hazard.
    They are also spending money updating the batteries using lithium ion technology with further development work to make them even more efficient and safe on board a submarine.

    The fact that the article says things like "Lithium tactical data system" is amusing.

    They developed a new class of submarine and during operational testing they found some problems which they no doubt have examined and solved and the solutions are being incorporated into an upgraded design... they will likely keep the vessel in service for testing new systems as a test bed vessel, and the two vessels that have started construction will likely be reworked into Project 677Ms once the new systems are ready.

    The resulting vessels will be smaller than Kilos, with smaller crews, but with better sensors, better weapons, better electronics, and longer range and patrol times... what is not to like?

    Also the upgraded kilos they are also getting will not be 30 year old vessels, they will have new electronics and sensors and weapons... not as good as the 677M, but as good as anything in service now anywhere.

    For export they have a deal with an Italian company, I believe to provide modern AIP for their subs.

    They have reportedly invested a lot of money into a system that works like a hydrogen fuel cell, but uses diesel instead of hydrogen... diesel is much safer and is obviously already stored in large amounts in a diesel electric sub. Also there is already infrastructure in all naval ports to provide diesel to ships, so no extra spending is required there either.

    No time to panic now. The production of the upgraded kilos was to reduce the urgency on the Ladas and that is exactly what it is doing.

    Or do you believe purchases of Mi-35s and Su-30MKs by the Russian Air Force prove the Mi-28N and the PAK FA are both failures too and that the Russian Air Force is being forced to rely on 40 year old soviet technology because they can't design new fixed and rotary winged aircraft?
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  runaway Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:Sounds like a sky is falling article to me.

    Rubin have said that based on testing they will have an upgraded Project 677M ready for mass production in 2014-2015 and that in the years of The resulting vessels will be smaller than Kilos, with smaller crews, but with better sensors, better weapons, better electronics, and longer range and patrol times... what is not to like??

    Also the upgraded kilos they are also getting will not be 30 year old vessels, they will have new electronics and sensors and weapons... not as good as the 677M, but as good as anything in service now anywhere


    For export they have a deal with an Italian company, I believe to provide modern AIP for their subs.

    They have reportedly invested a lot of money into a system that works like a hydrogen fuel cell, but uses diesel instead of hydrogen... diesel is much safer and is obviously already stored in large amounts in a diesel electric sub. Also there is already infrastructure in all naval ports to provide diesel to ships, so no extra spending is required there either.

    No time to panic now. The production of the upgraded kilos was to reduce the urgency on the Ladas and that is exactly what it is doing.

    Or do you believe purchases of Mi-35s and Su-30MKs by the Russian Air Force prove the Mi-28N and the PAK FA are both failures too and that the Russian Air Force is being forced to rely on 40 year old soviet technology because they can't design new fixed and rotary winged aircraft?
    I fear you`re sticking your head in the sand. Whats not to like is that the first sub which was laid down 1997, launched in 2006, will not be accepted into the Navy. I`m worried it has somthing to do with the mono hull design, rather then propulsion. Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy? (assuming we`re not the victims of Maskirovka)

    Yes the Kilo 636.3 is an excellent sub, but as it dont have AIP, its at an disadvantage.

    Great, they can export Kilos with Italian AIP, but doesnt have for themselves.

    And no, the PAK FA is no failure, yet. I would however be concerned if they lay the building of new PAK FA planes, prototypes on ice.
    As i would also had been concerned if the Bulava wasnt to be introduced in the strategic defence. But Bulava seems to be coming along now when the bugs are sorted out.

    But Lada class. Seems to be a failure, and they have decided to cut losses and pull the plug on the project.
    Hope i am wrong but if i am right, there IS cause to engage heavily to begin construction of a new project with workable AIP ASAP.


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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  TheArmenian Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:15 pm

    Relax. At one point the Bulava seemed in worst shape than the Lada. The future will tell.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  runaway Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:28 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Relax.

    Yes, thats really what the Admiralty Shipyard is doing, the two other subs of this class, Kronstadt and Sebastopol, was laid down in 2005 and 2006 respectively. And still they are not near completion, but work progress are at a complete standstill.

    If that is not spelled real TROUBLE, i dont know.

    Sad really, but the 636.3 with a AIP section added later should be amongst the worlds best, if not the best.

    Just let me hear that an AIP section is in real development.



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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:20 am

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111124/496875886.html

    Submarine Project 677 upgrade after 2013 - CDB "Ruby"

    24/11/2011 15:34

    MOSCOW, November 24 - RIA Novosti. Diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 "Lada" will modernize the technical refinement of the project will be completed in 2013, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, general manager of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" (project developer), Andrew deacons.

    He was commenting on reports by some media that the test boats of this project have been frozen.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013.

    A series of Russian diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise level with a powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.

    The boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and vessels of the enemy, protect naval bases, sea coast and sea lanes, conduct reconnaissance. Series is a development project 877 "halibut." Displacement of the ship is 1765 tons, the maximum depth - 350 meters, speed - 21 knots, the crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, and air defense systems "Igla-1M."

    Whats not to like is that the first sub which was laid down 1997, launched in 2006, will not be accepted into the Navy.

    Keep in mind that funding through the 1990s and up until about 2005 was pathetic... the fact that it was even built shows while everything else was completely neglected, that it got funding... sort of tells you it had priority status... something it hasn't lost.

    Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy? (assuming we`re not the victims of Maskirovka)

    For the same reason the first Flanker wasn't commissioned into the Russian Air Force. Fundamental flaws and problems that needed new solutions. To late to apply to this vessel, but they need a test bed vessel to test new stuff on anyway, so it gets that role instead. It is really not as big a deal as you are making out.

    When designing stuff you invest a lot of time and money and effort. They clearly pushed a few boundaries with this sub and as a result the Project 677M will be a very powerful vessel, but it is clearly cheaper and easier to use the first sub as a test bed and apply the new ideas they learnt from it to two incomplete vessels that were in the process of being built.

    If things were desperate then upgrading the original vessel might be an option, but clearly the production of 5 upgraded Kilos class vessels means there is no desperate situation... the new upgraded Kilos have filled that gap and they can spend a little more time getting the Ladas right.

    They can also continue further work and testing on the first vessel to further refine the design.

    Sounds perfectly sensible to me.

    Yes the Kilo 636.3 is an excellent sub, but as it dont have AIP, its at an disadvantage.

    AIP just allows a sub to remain submerged for longer periods. It is a good feature to have, but modern lithium Ion batteries on their own would increase their underwater performance by 40% alone... the Kilos without AIPs are described as being able to remain submerged for 10 days, which is pretty close to the two weeks or so that uber western vessels with AIPs can manage.

    The Russian navy has a few Akulas and Sierras and other vessels that can also stay underwater for long periods on very long trips... the conventional Russians subs will be largely coastal for the next few years anyway.

    Great, they can export Kilos with Italian AIP, but doesnt have for themselves.

    For years they exported Su-30MKIs and had Su-27s for their own forces. The gap is rather less in this case.

    And no, the PAK FA is no failure, yet. I would however be concerned if they lay the building of new PAK FA planes, prototypes on ice.

    Don't understand what you mean here. In any design project at some stage you have to freeze the design for production otherwise you will end up with each product being slightly different from the one before... which is not good for logistics.

    To put it in PAK FA terms once all the PAK FA prototypes have been produced and they integrate all the bits and pieces they will then upgrade all the PAK FA prototypes to working condition and they will likely be sent to Lipsek for operational conversion training and to create operations manuals and tactics, and of course create a maintainence schedule and manuals.

    For a ship it is obviously a bit different because of the scale and cost... normally operational problems with systems don't really show themselves till the ship is in the water and people are trying to use it for the things they use it for.

    When problems come up with propulsion (including AIP) and the Sonar, that require major redesign and reworking, then sometimes it is easier to start from an earlier position in the construction process to make those changes. For two vessels in the process of being built that is the case. For the vessel that has completed testing that is not the case.
    They need vessels for testing, so the vessel can be used for that... they save money on having to make a fundamental conversion, and also money on making a testbed sub.

    Obviously if things were urgent then converting the sub to make it operational makes sense. Things are not urgent because there are five new upgraded Kilos being made.

    But Lada class. Seems to be a failure, and they have decided to cut losses and pull the plug on the project.

    Not according to the article above.

    There wouldn't be any problems if they weren't pushing hard at the boundaries... I would be worried if there weren't problems.

    Hope i am wrong but if i am right, there IS cause to engage heavily to begin construction of a new project with workable AIP ASAP.

    The AIP they are working on is a drop in system... like a short section with VLS tubes for land attack missiles. You don't need to develop a new type of sub... the work on the AIP and the new generation sub are quite separate and actually not really related.

    Once their new AIP is ready and they decide to start fitting it to their own subs they can take the upgraded Kilos out of service slice them in half and slip in a section with an AIP and then do the wiring and piping etc and then wield them all back up again with a slight increase in length and weight and a jump in performance. At the same time they might slip in another section for UKSK tubes too.

    The point is that the AIP is like an independent battery charger that is added in addition to the propulsion of the vessel, which is a diesel motor, batteries and an electric drive system.

    And still they are not near completion, but work progress are at a complete standstill.

    Of course it is. The decision to build 5 Upgraded Kilos means there is no rush to finish these Lada boats... which means the design can be perfected based on experience at sea with the first vessel so changes in design and construction can be made and applied to the vessels that have started construction.

    No point in completing them and having three testbed subs with the same design and the same problems.

    The two remaining Ladas will be completed to the new design of project 677M and their design is not urgent because the plans are for 10 conventional subs by 2020.... 5 upgraded Kilos have been ordered and two Project 677Ms will be completed by 2014-2015... that leaves 5 years to make 3 more project 677Ms, which should be pretty straight forward.

    Sad really, but the 636.3 with a AIP section added later should be amongst the worlds best, if not the best.

    They have ordered 5, though the AIP can be added later.

    Just let me hear that an AIP section is in real development.

    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/09/new-aip-modules-in-russia-brief-report.html
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  runaway Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:54 am

    GarryB wrote: They clearly pushed a few boundaries with this sub and as a result the Project 677M will be a very powerful vessel, but it is clearly cheaper and easier to use the first sub as a test bed and apply the new ideas they learnt from it to two incomplete vessels that were in the process of being built.

    Yes, certainly, but wouldn´t be wiser to design the new propulsion first, on an older boat, so you dont waste a good new hull as a teast bed.
    We Swedes first developedt our AIP on an old Nacken class sub, then commenced building an entirely new class, Gotland, with Stirling engine Air Independent Propulsion, the new AIP already developed. Saves money, time and workforce.



    Don't understand what you mean here. In any design project at some stage you have to freeze the design for production otherwise you will end up with each product being slightly different from the one before... which is not good for logistics.

    And some projects are shut down, some dont, some should have, cause the end product is not good. As the M251 Sheridan, which never should have been built. Or perhaps the Sovremenny with its diastrous powerplant.

    The F-22, F-35 US planes are perhaps a good example too. They invest bilions of dollars and many years in a design which just dont seems to be a good design. Meanwhile, the older jets, F14, F15, F18 are falling out of lifespan and the new Sukhois have long passed them in terms of combat value.

    But another Sub example would be the terrible Brittish Upholder class.
    With just a few years in active service, they were quickly withdrawn and then sold cheap.
    While the customer Canada, after some time, were not happy at all with the sub.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013."Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    Thanks Gary, you have eased my mind, perhaps the 677M will be a succes, as it doesnt seem they are ready to give up the project.

    The currently developed Russian AIP is built on the same electro-chemical generation principle, as hydrogen elements, but uses different less flammable reagents. The chemical ingredients used in the new AIP are not disclosed however. Like foreign analogs the last Russian AIP is built in plug-in module. Dyachkov also said Rubin is working in parallel to improve the lithium-ion batteries for subs. Currently the installation of lithium-ion batteries allows to make underwater time longer on 40%, while it's only 35-40% of the theoretically limits of this technology.

    So, it could be incorporated into the 636.3 as a modular section later on. Good news.
    But as you have said, with the new lithium-ion batteries, its hardly worth it.
    Maybe its better to invest in Sonar, Stealth and Weapon systems.

    Gun controll is about to hit the target..

    Ha, nice touch. Although as a serviceman, i object to civilians armed with magnum and automatic weapons for the fun of it. They should start bowling or fishing instead.
    But hey, thats a topic for another discussion.



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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Admin Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:21 am

    runaway wrote:I`m worried it has somthing to do with the mono hull design, rather then propulsion. Or can you explain why the St petersburg isnt comissioned into the navy?

    Lada will not be accepted b/c...

    A) engine @ half rated power
    B) sonar obsolete
    C) software malfunctions



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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Lada/Amur Submarine News and Development

    Post  Austin Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:46 pm

    Have some update on Amur program from latest issue of FORCE ( www.forceindia.net )

    Deep Sea Quest
    A case for Russia’s Amur submarine for Indian Navy’s P-75I programme

    By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov

    Moscow: Three recent developments may help the Russians win the ongoing international competition for the Project 75(I): the Russian Navy’s commissioning of the Saint Petersburg, big domestic orders placed with the nation’s largest submarine builder — Sevmash and preparations for underwater trials of the BrahMos cruise missile.
    In the middle of 2010, Indian defence minister A.K. Antony gave approval for the Project 75(I), calling for procurement of six conventional (non-nuclear) submarines for USD 10.7 billion. While two vessels are to be constructed in the collaborator country, the remaining four are scheduled to be built in India, under license.
    According to the defence procurement practices, suitable companies from major exporting countries were invited to bid. They were forwarded Request for Information (RFI) in the second half of 2010 and the

    Project 677: Lada class submarine Project%20955%20Borey-class%20strategic%20nuclear%20submarine,%20the%20Yuri%20Dolgoruky

    request for proposal (RFP) is expected in the middle of 2012. If things move on time, the results are expected by 2014, and the delivery of the first vessel by 2016-2017.
    Four contenders — Rosoboronexport of Russia, Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) of Germany, DCNS of France and Navantia of Spain — are offering Amur 1650, Type 214, Scorpene and S-80 respectively. According to the RFI, circle of possible options was confined to those designs that were based on prototypes in existence.

    The Russian Navy operates the Saint Petersburg, head vessel of the Project 677 design, codenamed Lada. The Amur 1650 is the latter’s export derivative. The German Navy operates Type 212 U-boats, from which the Type 214 was derived for export purposes. The French Navy operates only nuclear-powered submarines, but DCNS has already delivered a pair of Scorpene submarines to Chile, another pair to Malaysia and is supplying six to India under license-production contract with Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL). Navantia’s product does not meet the above requirement, but this may change soon as the Spanish Navy takes delivery of its first S-80, now under construction some time in 2013-2015.

    The Indian Navy operates four Shishumar class submarines of the German Type 209 and 10 Russian-built Project 877EKM attributed to the Sindhughosh class. It use to have eight older Russian submarines, but the last of those, the INS Vagli, retired in 2011 after 36 years of service. Of the existing fleet, only four submarines are expected to remain operational in 2020 and none in 2025.

    India has plans for 24 new non-nuclear submarines, of which, 12 shall be built locally and 12 by the collaborator. In 2003-2005, France won the order for six Scorpene class submarines worth over USD four billion. These are being constructed locally at MDL in Mumbai. Sadly, the construction process has been going slower than originally envisioned.

    Meanwhile, India is also developing its nuclear submarine called Advanced Technology Vehicle, with the head vessel, Arihant nearly ready for sea trials. Besides, under a special deal between Kremlin and New Delhi, the Indian Navy is going to operate, under lease terms, a Project 971 submarine. The ship Nerpa, with tactical number K-152, is undergoing acceptance trials. Upon the completion of the trials, she will go south and serve there as INS Chakra. The Indian Navy may have as many as five or six nuclear-powered submarines in 2020. This would be a big development, but the need for modern conventional submarines will remain.

    Face-Off

    Germany, France and Russia have been competing for submarine orders round the world for decades. In this respect, each of the three has its strong and weak points. Broadly speaking, the West Europeans are considered better at air-independent propulsion (AIP) technologies in non-nuclear vessels. The Germans claim their Type 212 can move submerged at speed of three knots for nearly 14 days. This is made possible through the use of 300kWt AIP, based on fuel elements, and the use of stored oxygen.

    The Russian submarines have better chances in a duel situation. In this respect, the current production Project 636 (06363) is pictured as prevailing over the contemporary German and French designs. The newer Amur 1650 is even better, due to more powerful acoustic system, lesser noise and lower displacement (1,765t against 2,350t).

    As an added bonus, the Russian submarines can be equipped with Club-S missile system from Novator, an export version of the Caliber on the Russian Navy ships. The Club-S can fire three types of missiles, the anti-ship 3M-54, the anti-submarine 91R and the land-strike 3M-14. Today, such missilery is available only from Russia. In the course of modernisation and upgrade, Indian Navy’s Project 877EKM submarines have been obtaining the Club-S.

    It is interesting to note that certain countries with reputation as capable submarine builders are not bidding in India, this time. At one point, there were speculations that the S-1000 was being offered. This is a Russian design made under contract by Fincantieri of Italy, as an inexpensive ‘no-frills’ submarine, with displacement of 1,000 tons, intended mostly for coastal protection. Respective development contract was signed in 2004 and fulfilled shortly afterwards. However, neither the S-1000, nor its completely Russian equivalent Amur 950, is on offer to India.

    Swedish Kockums company is working on the A26 with 1,900 ton displacement, after building a series of three Gotland 1,500 ton submarines. The Gotland features Sterling-type AIP with underwater time up to 20 days. Australia operates six similar Collins class submarines produced in 1996-2003, while Singapore will soon be taking a pair of 1,500-tonne Archer submarines after they were rebuilt in Sweden. It is believed that after HDW took control over Kockums in 2004, it has the right to control the latter’s export operations. And, HDW chose to reply to the Indian RFI with the Type 214 offer.

    Project 677: Lada class submarine St%20Petersburg%20%E2%80%98Lada%E2%80%99

    Starting in 1998, HDW has been supplying Type 212 U-boats to German and Italian navies with eight deliveries, so far. The exportable Type 214 is larger, with displacement of 1,960t against 1,450t. So far, nine deliveries have been made to Portugal, Republic of Korea and Greece.

    Early sale success was somewhat marred by media reports about numerous design deficiencies. The U-boats tended to be unstable when surfaced, especially in strong winds, their AIPs produced lower output and overheated. There were reports of water leaking into hydraulics, periscope vibrations, cavitation, which decreased the propeller’s efficiency, and certain onboard sensors worked unstably. In 2010-2011, the RoK Navy reportedly withdrew submarines from active service temporarily for repairs, as nearly 30 cases of loosing bolts were discovered on three vessels.
    The fairly advanced and innovative design of Type 212/214 at the turn of the century, could not escape the inevitable teething problems. However, most of them are believed to have been cured by now, and the German product is widely considered front-runner in the ongoing completion.

    The S-80 is the largest of the four competing designs with 2,400t displacement. Worldwide economic crisis and the problems in the Euro zone postponed completion of the first Spanish Navy vessel from 2011 to 2013, and then over to 2015. Herein lies its weakest point. The S-80 is a very advanced submarine featuring an all-new but untried AIP solution, with a bio-ethanol processor of hydrogen. The S-80 has a combat management system from Lockheed Martin. While, this insures high quality, such advanced systems of US origin come with restrictions on access to their codes, algorithms and software package.

    France has already won Indian order for six Scorpene vessels. Increasing the numbers to 12 may be beneficial to local partner MDL. France does not operate Scorpene for itself, but Portugal and Malaysia operate them in a simplified 1,500-t version without AIP. KD Tunku Abdul Rahman and KD Tun Razak completed in 2009, for the Malaysian Navy, reportedly had problems when getting submerged. Contract worth over Euro two billion raised concerns in the country, with claims made against certain government members. Adding to DCNS’ troubles were charges of corruption.


    Project 677: Lada class submarine Project%20677%20submarine

    DCNS has produced unique type of AIP called MESMA (Module d’Energie Sous-Marin Autonome). MESMA makes use of a steam turbine. Steam is generated by combustion of ethanol and oxygen stored under pressure of 60 atmospheres. There is only one submarine actually outfitted with MESMA, the Pakistan Navy’s third hull of the Agosta 90B class. The S137 Hanza differs from her sister ships in having displacement of 2,050 tons against 1,760, and comes equipped with a 200kW MESMA. Reportedly, she did not manage to develop the advertised four knots, her actual speed falling one knot behind the promise.

    Naturally, use of compact steam turbines predetermines relatively low efficiency, in range of 15-26 per cent compared to 42-46 per cent for the German AIP
    solution and 50-55 per cent for the Russian. The latter two centre on use of fuel cells and electrochemical generators and have power output in the region of 300-350 kW, just enough to make three-four knots under water.

    BrahMos

    BrahMos Aerospace under the leadership of Dr Sivathanu Pillai is a joint venture between India and Russia. The company develops the PJ-10 supersonic cruise missile able to strike at stationary and moving surface targets, such as warships. Based on the Russian systems known under names of the Onix, Alfa and Yakhont, the PJ-10 has a launch weight of four tons. If a decision to use the BrahMos missiles on the Project 75(I) ships is taken, the resulting submarine will appear to have a stretched hull, to house one more compartment amidships. This one will house a number of vertical launch containers. Models of the Amur 1650 exhibited at international show how this will be done.

    There could be varied reasons to integrate BrahMos in the existing European hulls, but it seems to be a difficult proposition. For instance, the Germans keep reservoirs for hydrogen storage in the upper part of the hull just aft of the conning tower.
    Besides, it is not about simply making a stretch to accommodate one more hull section — the effort also requires combat management and other systems to serve the missiles and insure their effective employment in wartime. Of the three European bidders, only France has experience of launching missiles vertically from under water depths.

    The Russians can smoothly integrate the BrahMos on their ships, as they have a rich experience in vertical launches and, more importantly, invented the BrahMos itself as a derivative of the Onix system, in use on Russian submarines.
    Russian weaknesses are chiefly aftermaths of the system crisis in their defence industrial complex that developed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Meeting offset requirements is particularly an issue. Negotiations on the matter of offset need active participation of Russia’s integrated structures such as the United Shipbuilding Corporation (OSK) and Russian Technologies State Corporation.

    Options and Possibilities


    India may choose to buy more submarines from abroad in addition to acquisitions under the Projects 75 and 75(I). This may involve more Project 971 ships and, perhaps, the Project 636 as well. The latter has been popular with China, which added six improved ships in 2004-2006 to a pair acquired in 1997-1998. Besides, China has commenced building copies known as the Yuan class. Algeria took two vessels in 2009 and Vietnam signed for six. Last year, the Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg laid down the Novorossiysk and the Rostov-upon-Don for the Russian Navy’s Black Sea Fleet. The local customer has ordered four more improved Project 636 (06363) vessels.

    The Project 636 was on offer in India sometime ago. This time, however, the Russians responded to the new Indian RFI with the more modern Amur 1650. The decision was influenced by the Russian Navy commander’s order dated 6 May 2010, on inclusion of the St Petersburg, the head vessel of Project 677, into inventory of the Baltic Sea Fleet, supplemented by ritual hoisting of the Russian Navy flag.

    Development of the Lada commenced in the middle of Eighties. It was meant to be a sort of interceptor, able to defeat US fast-attack submarines, operating off Russian coasts which were trying to detect and then shadow Russian strategic nuclear submarines on deterrent patrols. For this purpose, the Project 677 was made quieter and smaller than its predecessor Project 636, yet equipped with much more powerful acoustic sensors.

    At the turn of the century, the Admiralty Shipyards laid down two series hulls, the Kronshtadt and the Sevastopol for the Russian Navy, and a third for export. In November, Rubin chief engineer Igor Vilnit told the media: “Construction of these vessels for the navy goes on in accordance with respective Russian government orders. Meantime, the head vessel, the St Petersburg, is undergoing modernisation and overhauling work in preparations of her operational trials in northern waters, according to the plans of the Russian defence ministry and the navy.”
    The Admiralty Shipyards reports that the series hulls are 40 per cent and 10 per cent complete respectively, while the export hull is ready for outfitting with systems. This creates good foundations for fulfilling would-be foreign orders, should overseas customers buy the Amur 1650.

    n 2011, the Sevmash company (also referred to as SMP) declared its intent to built diesel-electric submarines along with the Admiralty Shipyards. Sevmash specialises in nuclear-powered submarines, with 128 units having been built in Severodvinsk so far, following commissioning of the K-3 in 1958. The company says that, without slowing down construction of nuclear-powered submarines for the Russian Navy, it can produce at least one diesel-electric submarine for export customers annually.

    This statement comes along with another one: Sevmash and its patron OSK are talking to the Russian defence ministry on construction of three to four improved Project 636 submarines for the Russian Navy. Initially, the customer wanted to take six units from the Admiralty Shipyards, but latter was booked to capacity with previous orders, including that from the Vietnamese Navy. The builder is moving out of St Petersburg city to a new site on the island of Kotlin.

    The importance of Sevmash is that, it adds considerably to the Russian export capabilities, especially in terms of production quality, and fulfilling industrial offset requirements. With workforce of 27,000, it is not only the largest shipbuilder in Russia, but also the best equipped and financially stable.

    In November 2011, the Russian defence ministry awarded OSK and Sevmash orders for construction of four Project 955A Borey-A strategic nuclear submarines, in addition to three Project 955 Boreys, already built in Severodvinsk. The customer had ordered five Project 885M Yasen-M nuclear fast-attack submarines, in addition to the head vessel, now under sea trials. The exact sum of these contracts has not been made public but it is known that the Alexander Nevsky, a second Borey-class vessel, was build under contract worth Rouble 23 billion, which equates to USD 0.75 billion.

    Lada Goes Through its Paces


    Five years of the St Petersburg’s operational trials have highlighted issues that need to be resolved before the Project 677 goes into full scale production. It is a standard Russian practice that head vessel of a brand-new type goes through vigorous testing before permission is given for full scale production. For instance, a previous generation Russian design had a 4-year operational trails period on two ships during which the navy made nearly 30 major and half-a-thousand minor claims, and these were subsequently addressed and resolved by the industry before launching the type into quantity production.

    Since entering service, St Petersburg sailed Baltic waters regularly every year, for trials and working out war tactics. Work on preparations of improved design for the Russian Navy is proceeding well, in view of the completion date of 2013.
    In relation to the Project 75(I) competition, AIP is the hottest issue. By the time the Indian tender committee comes to the selection process of the most suitable supplier, work on shaping Amur 1650’s AIP would be complete. Due to huge investments in new technologies in the Soviet times, the Russian scientists have amassed large experience in fuel cells, and have tried them on submarines and spacecraft, and more recently, on unmanned air vehicles.

    The Amur 1650 is offered with AIP that employs fuel cells and reforming of diesel fuel for hydrogen by means of electro chemical generator. This solution permits to escape the need of storing hydrogen onboard submarines, as the Germans do, and rather generate it, as necessary. This eases issues with coastal infrastructure and crew safety.

    Experimental unit is under bench trials, and is available for inspection by Indian specialists. Next step in the programme is construction of AIP full-scale prototype. This work is being done by Rubin under the company’s initiative, in reply to requests of potential foreign customers.

    It is interesting to notice that unlike certain Europeans, the Russian Navy is not interested in AIP. As a result, no R&D work is being pursued in relation to Project 677. The Russian thinking is that underwater time can better be enlarged by increased capacity of accumulator batteries. The classic acid batteries are giving way to newer ion-lithium. As of now, the St Petersburg is equipped with a classic battery, but in future, it will be replaced by ion-lithium, when latter gets available. It is expected that the Amur-1650 with ion-lithium batteries can get a two fold increase in underwater time – from 9 days currently up to 16, which is comparable to the current levels of German U-boats with AIP. What may happen is that Indian specialists working on the RFP to the Project 75(I) would finally drop their early requirement for AIP and rather specify underwater time and other parameters of autonomous operations.

    Duel Situation

    Another example illustrating difference in Russian and European approaches is a duel scenario. Starting from the Project 641B, the Soviet (and then Russian) thinking was focussed on lowering acoustic fields so that diesel-electric submarines could be effectively employed on defence of naval bases and coastal waters against US fast-attack submarines, seeking to shadow Russian strategic nuclear submarines. The Soviet Union invested heavily in powerful acoustic sensors that would enable its submarines to detect enemy ships at greater distances, and allow for timely execution of evasive manoeuvres or first-see-first-strike sort of action.

    Acoustic signature can be decreased by means of employing electrical motors on permanent magnets. The Russians and the Germans went that way, brining to life, motors like Siemens Permasyn on Type 212/214, a unitary engine for ‘creeping’ towards target, economic cruise and full speed. This has been a new direction in conventional submarine development, which met numerous difficulties. Higher-than-advertised noised levels were reported for RoK and Helenic navy vessels. In turn, the Russians managed to achieve noise levels, but still worked on their SED-1 motor, trying to make it deliver the full advertised power. During sea trials of St Petersburg, underwater speed tended to increase, but it is still some two-three knots below specification.

    The Project 677 features state-of-the-art Lira acoustic detection system from Elektropribor company, complete with huge quasi-conformal antennae. As a result, the Saint Petersburg fared better in simulated duels with previous-generation submarines. The Lira has demonstrated stable work in Baltic waters but still needs checking in deeper ocean waters. Following completion of the Saint Petersburg modernisation and repairs, the ship will go to the Arctic for testing purposes in 2012.

    During public discussions on future of the Russian Naval forces in the time when the Russian Navy was choosing between the improved Project 636 and Project 677, to equip the Black Sea Fleet, lots of information became available on results of Saint Petersburg testing. This included making public certain facts about her teething problems such as that with SED-1. Bits of that information have been skilfully used by interested parties in a campaign against the newer Russian project, seemingly in an effort to decrease its chances in the global marketplace. Competition in the Project 75(I) tender is expected to be hot, and in many ways, decisive of the future of Russian non-nuclear submarines.

    (The writer is a Russian journalist based in Moscow)
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:41 pm

    Very interesting... thanks for posting.

    Especially the bit about UAVs using fuel cells... lets face it... a UAV has plenty of air available to run an internal combustion engine, so the only reason to power a UAV with a fuel cell is to reduce noise.

    Internal Combustion engines are noisy, while fuel cells are like batteries and are quiet as they generate electricity to run electric motors... which is ideal for a submarine, but would only make sense for a UAV if it needed to be very quiet...
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Admin Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:58 pm

    There isn't a chance Lada will be a contender for P-75I.

    Navy refused the newest submarine project "Lada"

    "St. Petersburg" will be the only boat of this project, which will be experienced and not a part of the Navy

    Project 677: Lada class submarine B-585_Sankt-Peterburg_in_2010

    "Saint Petersburg". Photo: A. Morozov

    In the Main Staff of the Navy, "Izvestiya" reported on Wednesday that the testing program of the project "Lada", from which 10 years ago there were plans to upgrade non-nuclear submarine force, had collapsed.

    - In the battle fleet, "St. Petersburg" will not be accepted. This is the final decision. The boat will remain prototypes, which will be tested separate complexes - a senior representative of the Command of the Navy.

    The main drawback of "Lada" interlocutor "Izvestia" described is crude engine, which proved unable to develop more than half of the given project power.

    In addition, the sonar system is not ready the boat for the development of which was spent 1.3 billion rubles, the combat information management system "Lithium" and torpedo "TE-2 toy" remains undeveloped.

    - Beautiful on a plan, the project was unsuccessful. In fact, we have a full-scale model of the ship. The boat is fully obsolete on a number of important areas. Its defects and the rapid aging of existing diesel submarines are forcing us to return to the tried and tested "Kilo" - summed up the representative of the Navy.

    According to him, work on two other boats of the project "Lada" - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol", the body which is fully ready, now frozen. Perhaps they are already tested equip engines from other projects, legacy systems and will be sold abroad.

    http://www.izvestia.ru/news/507580
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:43 pm

    This report has already been discussed from memory.

    It is essentially true, yet fundamentally wrong.

    The lead ship of the Lada class wlll not enter operational service and will be used for testing.

    Sounds catastrophic... but actually isn't.

    They tested it and found that certain things don't work to the level they need to work... which is not to say it is unworkable.

    For testing, normally they have to take an in service submarine from service to do operational testing... ie checking sonar signature from an external source etc etc, so using this prototype as a testbed is a good thing.

    The two vessels that have been laid can benefit from the problems found with the first boat and solutions can be applied to solve those problems and get their performance to spec.

    The Navy has ordered new Kilos in the mean time as they are proven and capable designs.


    Submarine Project 677 upgrade after 2013 - CDB "Ruby"

    24/11/2011 15:34

    MOSCOW, November 24 - RIA Novosti. Diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 "Lada" will modernize the technical refinement of the project will be completed in 2013, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, general manager of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" (project developer), Andrew deacons.

    He was commenting on reports by some media that the test boats of this project have been frozen.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013.

    A series of Russian diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise level with a powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.

    The boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and vessels of the enemy, protect naval bases, sea coast and sea lanes, conduct reconnaissance. Series is a development project 877 "halibut." Displacement of the ship is 1765 tons, the maximum depth - 350 meters, speed - 21 knots, the crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, and air defense systems "Igla-1M."

    source: http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111124/496875886.html

    The article you posted is dated November 23 2011, and the article I posted above is dated November 24 2011, and is clearly in direct response to the article you posted.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Admin Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:54 am

    With an engine working only at half power, weapon systems that do not function and obsolete systems this submarine does not reach the goals of a modern SSK. State timelines are meaningless proven time and again. Funding has not been provided for completion and won't be until it is determined a viable product. We have to wait many years for the State to come out and say a project is terminated. It is just a matter of time before they are forced to admit it.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:21 am

    The stuff being developed for the Lada is all new and state of the art... that is why there are problems with it.

    The article I posted above is from the makers of the submarine, so it is hardly unbiased... but if the sub was crap they would have scrapped it and the two subs laid down and would then have had to start from scratch to design and build new conventional subs.

    The facts of the matter are that the Lada contains all their latest technology, which if it works is world leading.

    If you read the article that started this thread... German subs with their "Amazing" AIPs can operate at 4 knts for 14 days underwater, while this Lada sub can operate underwater for 16 days at 4knts on batteries alone!

    Doesn't sound obsolete to me.

    It has some problems and they are working on those problems and plan to have solved those problems by next year.

    They will apply those solutions to the already laid down hulls fo the next two vessels... and lets be realistic, it is possible that they might not finish them very quickly and also that the new solutions are not completely successful.

    The Lada is significantly better than any model Kilo on paper, so if these new Project 677M subs are only getting close to what the project 677 was supposed to be at least it is a step forward.

    If the 677 is obsolete rubbish then why keep it at all?

    Very simply what I am saying is that even if it is not as good as it is supposed to be it will be better than what they currently have.

    I think it will actually be a very good with a smaller crew and lighter displacement, but a better sonar and command and control systems and new torpedoes it should be a very capable system when it is actually ready for service.

    Problems during development are better than problems during service... it is best to sort things out now and build upgraded Kilos to fill the gap than to rush production of Ladas now and sort out the problems while they are in service/production.

    I have read an article where a Russian Navy official states that their plans are for 5 upgraded kilos to be built and 5 Lada class vessels to be built by 2020. The Kilos are already ordered and the Ladas are scheduled to start production after 2013.

    If they did have to cancel it it would be incredibly expensive to start an all new program... especially as it is unlikely that any country that has developed AIPs will share that technology.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:54 am

    The Russian Navy had problems developing the new Project 677 Lada diesel-electric submarines, whereas Project 877 Paltus (Kilo class) submarines continued to age rapidly. As a result, the Navy had to order upgraded Project 636-M (Kilo class) submarines once again. In August 2010, the keel of a lead Project 636-M submarine was laid for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Over the next decade, the Navy will replace obsolete Paltus submarines with improved models, while continuing to upgrade the Lada submarine. The Navy is to operate four to five Ladas, as well as 9-12 upgraded and 5-6 obsolete Paltus submarines.

    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101102/161183586.html

    from November 2010, and in practical terms a motor not running to max spec performance and a Sonar system that operates well in the baltic and will likely be tested in deeper water this year needs minor fixes rather than replacement... it is a high performance set designed to detect enemy SSNs near Russian SSBNs and ports.

    Most likely the current version of Sigma C4IR system will likely be added to the 677M vessels as that system is standard on all other new surface vessels and subs.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Austin Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:32 pm

    Vlad , do not just trust blindly what izvestia has to say , it is known for many comical news like procurement of shuttle for badminton becuase Medvedev said it improves concentration and many other.

    Izvestia is basicly crap , unless its confirmed by many source.

    Rubin director has said in an interview to Rian recently that the next 2 lada will be built to improved standard and will be based on feedback from the first boat ...so Lada will live and will get better.

    They have also tested a unique AIP for it that generated hydrogen on the fly and does not have to store and uses diesel to do it.Its very promising technology for AIP and more safer then the germans one which stores hydrogen on board.

    Kilo wont last for long and they know that , so they will pursue it in the long term interest of industry and for the navy , no two views on that.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:47 pm

    They have also tested a unique AIP for it that generated hydrogen on the fly and does not have to store and uses diesel to do it.Its very promising technology for AIP and more safer then the germans one which stores hydrogen on board.

    The Russians have really thought about this and have invested a lot of money into the new AIP, and also they have invested a lot of money in developing Lithium Ion batteries too.

    The genius of their AIP is that because it extracts the required material from Diesel when you adopt this AIP very little has to change.
    If you buy a German sub with AIP then even if you only buy one then in every port you want that sub to operate you need to set up facilities for handling and supplying hydrogen right to the pier.

    With the Russian system the diesel handling and storage is already present.

    The other point is that a diesel electric sub already has onboard storage for large amounts of diesel fuel so apart from some pipes carrying diesel from the fuel tanks to the new AIP section and electrical cables that deliver the current generated to the batteries or direct to the propulsion motor there is little else that needs to be done to an old ship being upgraded with this new AIP.

    To install the German system you need hydrogen storage tanks as well as the AIP section.

    Obviously it isn't perfect... there are plenty of questions to be answered... AFAIK the Russian system doesn't extract hydrogen from the diesel, it actually extracts methonol or some such alcohol based fuel that is used in their fuel cell to generate electricity, so what remains of the diesel and what use is it?

    Can it still be used in the diesel engine or must it be discarded.

    Could they use different diesel with a very high methanol content and then process the diesel once underway to separate out the material they need leaving diesel they can still use as diesel?

    I don't know.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Admin Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:54 am

    There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Austin Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:50 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.

    The AIP is being bench tested for the past 2 years and they were suppose to be demonstrated to India.

    The additional Scorpenes is to tie over the short fall in submarine , cant wait for the new line to over the shortfall too soon as the new 2nd line of submarine for which Amur is a contender will only come like 5 years from now.
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    Project 677: Lada class submarine Empty Re: Project 677: Lada class submarine

    Post  Admin Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 am

    The RFP for 75I has yet to be issued. No bench test has been demonstrated to India.

    Mazagong docks says it is cheaper to build more French submarines and with the tight wads at FinMin, Marlin looks the winner.

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