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    USA - Australia military cooperation

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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:25 pm

    What kind of submarine is the question. Virginia class subs? They could be deliverd fast. But are the US ready to give away such secrets to even a close ally?

    But they cant build a new boat from scratch either, would take years before they were ready. Or are the US and UK creating something new(ish) based on ready technology from the Virginia and Astute classes.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:34 pm

    walle83 wrote:What kind of submarine is the question. Virginia class subs? They could be deliverd fast. But are the US ready to give away such secrets to even a close ally?

    But they cant build a new boat from scratch either, would take years before they were ready. Or are the US and UK creating something new(ish) based on ready technology from the Virginia and Astute classes.

    Virginia is too fresh if you ask me

    Maybe they could get some of the fresher Los Angeles-class on loan first?
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    Post  Finty Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:48 pm

    An interesting development, I won't gloat too much about the French losing out!

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    Post  Finty Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:50 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:Australia to purchase nuclear submarines (SSN) from USA

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-15/allied-naval-united-states-biden-australia-nuclear-submarines/100465628

    USA selling nuke subs to anyone would be paradigm shift

    I'll believe it when I see it


    They will also ask UK to build more SSN and base them in the pacific. UK has an island full of single family inbreads weiredos there.

    Bad news for France which looses 50 years, 50 billion $ contract for 12 subs. dunno . I wonder why at first they really thought they could wiin such a contract in US backyard.

    I'll try to reign in the Racism but the French can't say anything when their diet consists of frogs and snails and their cities have gone down the pan.


    Moving on swiftly....

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/15/biden-deal-uk-australia-defense-tech-sharing-511877

    Biden to announce joint deal with U.K. and Australia on advanced defense-tech sharing
    One source said there is a nuclear-defense infrastructure to the three-way pact known as AUKUS.

    The Australian Flag is seen.
    The Australian flag flies. | Darrian Traynor/Getty Images

    By ALEXANDER WARD and PAUL MCLEARY

    09/15/2021 08:55 AM EDT

    Updated: 09/15/2021 04:33 PM EDT

    President Joe Biden will announce a new working group with Britain and Australia to share advanced technologies in a thinly veiled bid to counter China, a White House official and a congressional staffer told POLITICO.

    The trio, which will be known by the acronym AUKUS, will make it easier for the three countries to share information and know-how in key technological areas like artificial intelligence, cyber, underwater systems and long-range strike capabilities.


    One of the people said there will be a nuclear element to the pact in which the U.S. and U.K. share their knowledge of how to maintain nuclear-defense infrastructure.


    There’s nothing explicitly mentioning China in the three-way deal, the people said, but both noted that the subtext of the announcement is that this is another move by Western allies to push back on China’s rise in the military and technology arenas.

    “This is a surprising and extremely welcome sign of the Biden administration’s willingness to empower close allies like Australia through the provision of highly advanced defense technology assistance — something that Washington has rarely been willing to do,” said Ashley Townsend, director of foreign policy and defense programming at the United States Center in Sydney. “It suggests a new and more strategic approach to working collectively with allies on Indo-Pacific defence priorities.”

    Australia’s Financial Review newspaper reported Canberra will abandon a $90 billion submarine deal with France and will now acquire an American-made nuclear-powered submarine. The French deal had long been in trouble, with the Naval Group, the French shipbuilder tasked with constructing the 12 submarines, and the Australian government sparring over design changes and cost increases.

    A new class of nuclear-powered submarines would give Washington and its allies in the Pacific a powerful new tool to attempt to contain Chinese military expansion, and would follow on the current deployment of a British aircraft carrier to the region, and recent transits by French and German warships to the South China Sea.



    The U.S. and U.K. have long partnered on their nuclear-powered submarine programs, sharing technology across their various classes of ships. Bringing Australia into the fold would would a major step in increasing the ability of the three countries to operate together undersea across the Pacific, as well as adding a powerful allied punch in the region that is currently lacking.

    Beijing has a growing missile arsenal at its disposal and its forces are increasingly aggressive, sailing naval ships near Japanese and American waters in recent days. It’s part of China’s effort to assert its primacy in the Indo-Pacific and lay claim to disputed territories. Chinese officials say territory that falls within the country’s “nine-dash line” in the South China Sea belongs to Beijing.

    In response, the U.S. continues to build partnerships with other nations that serve as a bulwark against China. One such group is known as “the Quad” and has the U.S., Japan, Australia and India as members. Formed in its current iteration in 2017, the four-nation team never says that its economic, technological and military cooperation is about thwarting Beijing’s aims, but analysts say the Quad wouldn’t be as robust today if it weren’t for China’s continued aggressions.

    On Sept. 24, all four Quad-nation heads will meet at the White House for the first-ever in-person, leader-level gathering of the group.

    A trade war between China and Australia has also worsened relations between the countries. The dispute, which began in April 2020 after Prime Minister Scott Morrison asked for an inquiry into the origins of Covid-19, has cost the two nations roughly $4 billion. Josh Frydenberg, Australia’s treasurer, this month accused Beijing of trying to exert “political pressure” with penalties on Australian products.

    And China-India relations have also been tense, with recent fatal standoffs at their long-disputed border high in the Himalayas.
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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:What kind of submarine is the question. Virginia class subs? They could be deliverd fast. But are the US ready to give away such secrets to even a close ally?

    But they cant build a new boat from scratch either, would take years before they were ready. Or are the US and UK creating something new(ish) based on ready technology from the Virginia and Astute classes.

    Virginia is too fresh if you ask me

    Maybe they could get some of the fresher Los Angeles-class on loan first?

    I wonder if the Australiens would agree to that, we aint talking about India or Pakistan here. The article states that it will be a "new" nuclear submarine.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:02 am

    Finty wrote:An interesting development, I won't gloat too much about the French losing out!

    Of course, of course... lol1
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    Post  Finty Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:13 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Finty wrote:An interesting development, I won't gloat too much about the French losing out!

    Of course, of course... lol1
    USA - Australia military cooperation - Page 2 Latest?cb=20191215062815

    Picture's not loading dude but when I went to reply I saw Duke of Wellington in the image url, that's good enough for me!

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:09 am

    Isos wrote:Bad news for France which looses 50 years, 50 billion $ contract for 12 subs. dunno . I wonder why at first they really thought they could wiin such a contract in US backyard.
    Let's see if a jilted France now decides to sell nuclear submarines to China. Chinese subs are not as state of the art as Russian or Western subs, for one they are a lot more noisy.

    Re backyard, France does co-operate with Brazil to develop nuclear submarines.

    PapaDragon wrote:Virginia is too fresh if you ask me

    Maybe they could get some of the fresher Los Angeles-class on loan first?
    Doesn't have to be a U.S nuclear submarine, could well be a U.K one like Trafalgar or Astute.

    More importantly, it is quite possible now that countries capable of developing SSNs like Russia, France, China and even the Anglo-Saxon twins will start exporting SSNs to allied countries.

    Meanwhile, here’s the video of the RoKN’s submarine-launched BSM with 450km-range:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhHYs62eej8

    What’s interesting is that it has the same configuration as India’s K-15 SLBM, but the missile-body resembles Russia’s Iskandar-M SS-BSM. Maybe Russia used the good offices of BrahMos Aerospace to supply South Korea with certain specialised components like the first-stage booster, the missile canister & the expendable cannister-tip protective cupola.

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    Maximmmm
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    Post  Maximmmm Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:05 am

    Anybody wants to place bets on how much over-budget these puppies are gonna be?

    But yeah also hilarious how they cheekily snubbed the french. Oy frogs, isn't it time to awaken your inner De Gaulle and leave NATO already?

    Quick edit: Also I never get tired of western propaganda. "Australia will be getting nuclear submarines, but won't be getting access to nukes! How dare you insinuate that the US could use their subs and fill them to the brim with nukes if push came to shove, we're all for non-proliferation, f^&k North Korea!" Laughing

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:16 pm

    The Aussies might want their own design of SSN... something along the lines of the Collins class... which was a bit of a joke... it was an enlarged Swedish class SSK... so they might want a modified existing design.

    I guess ANZUS is dead then... good riddance.

    The media were asking horse face why we weren't part of it and she said we are not interested in nuclear powered subs so there was no point being part of it... which I pretty much agree with.

    India will be next and the pressure from the US to build up their navy with old USN hand me downs will become more and more intense.

    Wouldn't surprise me if 16 LCS ships and 3 Zumwalts didn't become suddenly available real soon...

    Ironically with the potential for modern UUVs being noisy could be used as part of a trap... saying Chinese subs are noisy is an inaccurate generalisation... their project 636 Kilo class subs are not noisy at all... and they will have access to high tech 6 axis cutting machines too... the level of production precision necessary for stealth fighters should make precision parts for less vibration and noise a natural progression moving forward.

    If they Collins class SSK is anything to go by this should be amusing.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:35 pm

    A rumor doing the round is that Australia might go for the Astute class SSN but using the new PWR3 reactor destined for the U.K's Dreadnaught Class of SSBNs. Which is largely based on a GE design. They could go for say an Astute but with the Virginia Payload Module, for an improved land attack capability.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:52 pm

    Sujoy wrote:A rumor doing the round is that Australia might go for the Astute class SSN but using the new PWR3 reactor destined for the U.K's Dreadnaught Class of SSBNs. Which is largely based on a GE design. They could go for say an Astute but with the Virginia Payload Module, for an improved land attack capability.

    Tend to agree. I would think that to the US, exporting UK sub technology rather than their own (naturally superior) was a lower security risk. Then making sure that there were significant elements in it with significant US IPR so that they retained a degree of control, as they do over ours.

    Meanwhile the French are pissed off

    USA - Australia military cooperation - Page 2 E_XrTL4VEAEVjvm?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Finty
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    USA - Australia military cooperation - Page 2 Empty Aukus: China denounces US-UK-Australia pact as irresponsible

    Post  Finty Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:18 pm

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58582573

    47 minutes ago
    Share

    media captionWatch: Australia’s ‘risky bet’ to side with US over China
    China has criticised a historic security pact between the US, UK and Australia, describing it as "extremely irresponsible" and "narrow minded".

    The deal will see the US and UK give Australia the technology to build nuclear-powered submarines for the first time.

    It is being widely viewed as an effort to counter China's influence in the contested South China Sea.

    The region has been a flashpoint for years and tensions there remain high.

    Chinese Foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said the alliance risked "severely damaging regional peace... and intensifying the arms race".

    He criticised what he called "the obsolete cold war... mentality" and warned the three countries were "hurting their own interests".

    Chinese state media carried similar editorials denouncing the pact, and one in the Global Times newspaper said Australia had now "turned itself into an adversary of China".

    ANALYSIS: Why this pact signals a major shift
    EXPLAINED: Tensions in the South China Sea
    The US is sharing its submarine technology for the first time in 50 years, having previously only shared it with the UK.

    It means Australia will now be able to build nuclear-powered submarines that are faster and harder to detect than conventionally powered fleets. They can stay submerged for months and shoot missiles longer distances - although Australia says it has no intention of putting nuclear weapons on them.

    The new partnership, under the name Aukus, was announced in a joint virtual press conference between US President Joe Biden, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his Australian counterpart Scott Morrison on Wednesday evening and Thursday morning.

    And while China was not mentioned directly, the three leaders referred repeatedly to regional security concerns which they said had "grown significantly".

    "This is an historic opportunity for the three nations, with like-minded allies and partners, to protect shared values and promote security and prosperity in the Indo-Pacific region," a joint statement read.

    Who has nuclear-powered subs?
    1px transparent line
    The Aukus alliance is probably the most significant security arrangement between the three nations since World War Two, analysts say.

    It means Australia will become just the seventh nation in the world to operate nuclear-powered submarines.

    While they are the big-ticket item in the deal, cyber capabilities and other undersea technologies will also be shared.

    "This really shows that all three nations are drawing a line in the sand to start and counter [China's] aggressive moves," said Guy Boekenstein from the Asia Society Australia.

    Boris Johnson later said the pact would "preserve security and stability around the world" and generate "hundreds of high-skilled jobs".

    UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace told the BBC that China was "embarking on one of the biggest military spends in history... Our partners in those regions want to be able to stand their own ground."


    media captionWhy is everyone fighting over the South China Sea?
    In recent years, Beijing has been accused of raising tensions in disputed territories such as the South China Sea.

    It has been increasingly assertive over what it says are centuries-old rights to the contested region, and has been rapidly building up its military presence to back up those claims.

    The US has bolstered its military presence too, and has been investing heavily in other partnerships in the region such as with Japan and South Korea.

    Having the submarines stationed in Australia is critical to US influence in the region, analysts say.

    Tensions between China and Australia
    China is Australia's biggest trading partner, and in the past, the two have maintained good relations.

    But in recent years, political tensions have created a deep rift, stoked by Australia criticising China's treatment of ethnic Uighurs, banning some technology from telecom giant Huawei and supporting an investigation into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic.

    Western nations have also been wary of China's booming infrastructure investment on Pacific islands, and have criticised its heavy trade sanctions against countries like Australia - last year it slapped Australian wine with taxes of up to 200%.

    'A stab in the back'
    But France has also reacted angrily to the new pact, because it means Australia will now abandon a $50bn (€31bn; £27bn) deal with it to build 12 submarines.

    "It's really a stab in the back," France's Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told France Info radio. "We had established a relationship of trust with Australia, this trust has been betrayed."

    The European Union's foreign policy chief, Josep Borrell said he understood why France was disappointed by the deal, adding that the EU was not consulted about the new alliance.

    "This forces us once again... to reflect on the need to make the issue of European strategic autonomy a priority. This shows that we must survive on our own," he said on Thursday.

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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:24 pm

    Nuclear subs for Australia does make a lot of sense considering that they are a key US ally in the fight against China BUT this program is going to be hugely expensive if the subs are going to be new builds. Might in the end prove too expensive and then they may have to crawl back to France for a cheaper alternative. Australia is practically a jail atm due to the Covid restrictions but there used to be a very strong anti-nuclear lobby in Australia which can also put an abrupt end to these plans when it comes to election time.

    The French on the hand can suddenly turn a friendly hand towards China in helping them to develop new nuclear subs. Much like they did during rosier times with China. Fact is - no matter what - the French are really pissed off! Interesting times ahead for NATO as well. Smile

    As in Finty's post - China is not going to take it well and they will surely respond "appropriately".

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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:01 pm

    Mir wrote:Nuclear subs for Australia does make a lot of sense considering that they are a key US ally in the fight against China BUT this program is going to be hugely expensive if the subs are going to be new builds. Might in the end prove too expensive and then they may have to crawl back to France for a cheaper alternative. Australia is practically a jail atm due to the Covid restrictions but there used to be a very strong anti-nuclear lobby in Australia which can also put an abrupt end to these plans when it comes to election time.

    The French on the hand can suddenly turn a friendly hand towards China in helping them to develop new nuclear subs. Much like they did during rosier times with China. Fact is - no matter what - the French are really pissed off! Interesting times ahead for NATO as well. Smile

    As in Finty's post - China is not going to take it well and they will surely respond "appropriately".

    French are out. It's finish for them. Even if they go for a diesel sub US will push them for a sweedish or japanese sub full of US stuff. Anglo-saxons don't like french.

    I disagree with your first sentence. Australia isn't a key ally. It is a lost ally because China is already rulling there economically. US can't do anything against that, if China put sanctions or stops it eco partnership with them they will all be poor and bankrupt. Those subs are a desperate move.

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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:54 pm

    Isos wrote:

    French are out. It's finish for them. Even if they go for a diesel sub US will push them for a sweedish or japanese sub full of US stuff. Anglo-saxons don't like french.

    I disagree with your first sentence. Australia isn't a key ally. It is a lost ally because China is already rulling there economically. US can't do anything against that, if China put sanctions or stops it eco partnership with them they will all be poor and bankrupt. Those subs are a desperate move.

    The French and the British have along "love to hate" history. Even during the golden Cold War years the French and the British couldn't see eye to eye on many joint projects that eventually came to none - this is not so new. The French are out of the deal for sure but I am not so sure the Australians would be able to follow through on this due to the inevitable cost overruns and domestic political pressure. Many Australians are not happy with the way the current Government is handling the Covid crisis and it may eventually result in a new government that will most likely kill the deal.

    China and Australia are major trading partners but you may not be aware of the Five Eyes intelligence alliance between the US, Canada, UK , Australia and New Zealand. With the possible exception of New Zealand these countries have now openly declared economic and political warfare against China. The US wants to retain it's precarious position as the number one economic and military power in the world. It therefor has to openly challenge China and these countries are willing and able to take the economic risk and assist the US. There are also other major countries at play here including Japan and Korea and together with Australia they form the key Pacific alliance against China.

    China is militarily basically surrounded but their leadership had the foresight to rebuild and modernize the PLA into a formidable force for what was inevitable.

    BTW China and Russia has huge economical reserves that can last for many years - The US and it's allies does not have this luxury.
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:27 pm

    Australia can't declare eco war to China. It's totally dependant on chinese growth. All their natural ressources are bought by chinese companies. If they try to replace China by US they will go bankrupt.

    Even US isn't declaring such war. Trump tried but failed. Take out chinese stuff from US stores and they become empty. Try to produce them in US and they will cost 10 times more.

    China knew from the begining when western companies delocalized their production in China that they will rule the world one day. Western governements were too busy eating dollars. And now that they eat less and less and have to give to unemployed people in their countries they see how they fucked up.

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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:39 pm

    Australia can't declare eco war to China. It's totally dependant on chinese growth. All their natural ressources are bought by chinese companies. If they try to replace China by US they will go bankrupt.

    You're right - but with the exception of New Zealand - they don't think so. We all know they will fail with dire consequences. That is why I referred to the vast Chinese and Russian reserves.

    China knew from the begining when western companies delocalized their production in China that they will rule the world one day. Western governements were too busy eating dollars. And now that they eat less and less and have to give to unemployed people in their countries they see how they fucked up.

    This is what happens when you're ruled by Big Capital. They don't feel shit about the common people that "vote" for them. All they care about is max profit no matter what.

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    Post  nomadski Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:55 pm

    Seems to me this is a consequence of bankrupt Brexit policy . A policy driven largely by the right wing conservatives , as a knee-jerk reaction to British economic and social woes . A policy that replaces economic pragmatism with nationalistic tribalism . Before Brexit they said that we had to end up eating chlorinated American chicken . But now there is a shortage of Chicken in the UK . No More KFC . Ironic since KFC,  is an American franchise . See how tribalist Imperialism fails ! Eric Cartman would not be happy about this .

    Meanwhile Nordstream 2 finished . Europe gets cheap Gas . UK gets a 25% price hike , because the wind power has died down in the North sea . The Anglo world is shrinking fast . The Euro-Asian economic union is expanding fast . How about France help build the Belt and Road to China instead ? As well as offering the Submarine contract to China ? Stab them in the back , as they did to France !


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKjjHn_FemM

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:36 pm

    Sujoy wrote:A rumor doing the round is that Australia might go for the Astute class SSN but using the new PWR3 reactor destined for the U.K's Dreadnaught Class of SSBNs. Which is largely based on a GE design. They could go for say an Astute but with the Virginia Payload Module, for an improved land attack capability.

    Adding Virginia payload module on Astute is just asking for pain in the ass and burning money

    If they want to use cruise missiles there are easier ways to do it, launching cruise missile from torpedo tubes would be best approach

    Smartest thing for Australians would be to ask for Astute-class with enlarged torpedo room so they can store additional cruise missiles


    Also, French are absolutely furious, like big time lol1

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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:56 pm

    The French can go **** themselves.

    Collectively, so can US and Australia. But oh well.

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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:13 pm

    Actually the french contract was about ToT and building them in Australia. It wasn't about paying 50 billion euros and getting 12 subs from France.


    Australia can't build diesel subs, let alone building nuclear ones. So if they go for it, it will be built by the US because they will tell UK to **** themselves when they will ask to build them in the UK because what matters at the end is the US mainland.

    They aren't planing to protect Australia from Chinese but US mainland. So if they have to sacrifice it will be in this order: every asian ally with people with semi-closed eyes, all the territories around them, Australians, UK, blacks inside US, hispanics in the US and then Nuk the world. Whites in the US aren't an option for them.

    Actually there is no order they will throw anyone in the garbage to save themselves and the dollar.
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    Post  walle83 Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:18 pm

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:32 pm

    walle83 wrote:

    Didnt watch this as yt channel is garbage.

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    Post  walle83 Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:44 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    walle83 wrote:

    Didnt watch this as yt channel is garbage.
    Why even comment then.

    PapaDragon likes this post


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