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    Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Sujoy
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Sujoy Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:50 am

    Proposed Su-30MKI upgrade

    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Su_30_10


    Of this, integration of upgraded radio altimeter, VOR/ILS & SDRs has been achieved.
    GarryB
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:34 am

    The fundamental question though, is, are these bits going on the plane because they are the best choice and the most capable available option, or are they going on because they are Indian made?
    medo
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:37 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Proposed Su-30MKI upgrade

    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Su_30_10


    Of this, integration of upgraded radio altimeter, VOR/ILS & SDRs has been achieved.

    This upgrade still bring some questions. Upgraded Su-30MKI still doesn't get IFDL data link, so it will not be networked and this is a big minus in modern air combat. Other question is radar and IRST. Russia will not give new AESA radar from Su-57 and without new 117S engines, Su-30MKI could not use N036 radar from Su-57 or Irbis from Su-35. Most probably just upgraded Bars radar, maybe to Bars-R level on Su-30SM. Zhuk-AE or ELM-2052 have shorter range than Bars-M radar and will not give much better combat capabilities. IRST is another question. Which one Russia is ready to sell and anyway it will be export version, less capable than domestic one.

    VOR/DME/ILS is civil ICAO navigation complex and is not suitable for combat missions. TACAN is military one, but it is less precise than Russian RSBN, which Su-30MKI doesn't have.

    I have a feeling India again go for a mix of components from everywhere to have future problems and questions if this uprade is upgrading or downgrading Su-30MKI capabilities. The main question is, will they replace engine with more powerful one or they will keep existing Al-31FP, which have the same thrust as Al-31F on basic Su-27.

    George1 likes this post

    GarryB
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:41 am

    I understand pride, and normally I am all for it, but when it comes to your home defence you need to put such things in their place.

    I would say get the best you can get and worry about making your own stuff from the bottom up.

    The cheap simple light fighter programme should be the one that has all indigenous equipment and systems... even if you have to drop the single powerful but fuel efficient and expensive imported motor and perhaps use two smaller lighter licence built motors instead.

    Domestic parts will increase the costs but it is money spent at home and money going to Indian companies and you can make as many of these aircraft as you like.
    Needs to be clear though that an x standard is set so if it is not good enough or not reliable enough then a foreign part will be used just for basic performance and standards.

    This will give Indian companies experience and potential experience so they can develop and improve their products.

    Maybe not even start on the Tejas... maybe start with an SR-10 like jet trainer aircraft and once they get experience they can set higher ambitions of creating systems for heavier aircraft including civilian aircraft.

    The point I am trying to make is that India is not going to just start making the worlds best fighter or the worlds best main battle tank overnight, and just assembling something someone else made is not the same... it just makes the same thing more expensive for no advantage at all.

    India would be better off buying Russian assembled and French assembled aircraft and then licence producing the spare parts needed to keep them operating... that would offer more reliability in terms of making them sanction proof and self reliant, but most of the time their problems centre around taking too long to order new aircraft and once the orders are made assembling them and getting them into service.

    India needs to look at its own situation and really think what it needs a lot of... there is no point in India developing a medium 5th gen fighter on their own... if they don't find an enormous market and sell thousands of them then they are going to be left with a fighter they make a couple of hundred of... which is going to make them eye wateringly expensive no matter what the performance level. And that cost is going to lead to inevitable cost cutting which is going to negatively effect performance.

    Odds are they wont be stupid enough to want a VSTOL fighter so at least it wont be as terrible as the F-35.

    India would be better off producing numbers stuff... order the Pantsir or TOR or both systems and get the licence to produce the missiles and make hundreds of millions of them... having enormous numbers of such weapons is useful in real combat.

    MANPADS and ATGMs are the same... the more the better.

    But instead of making super fighters and super tanks a cheap simple plane like an An-2, and a simple cheap vehicle like an MTLB would be more use to India than all the Rafales or Sukhois they could build...

    I realise Russia would benefit from this suggestion, but I also honestly think India would too... when I say An-2 and MTLB I don't mean just copies... but they can follow the same simple practical and useful designs and make them solid and reliable. Not necessarily super big advanced engine... not necessarily super fuel efficient, but something you can fix with a laptop and a few simple tools by yourself most of the time.

    Isos
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Isos Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:13 pm

    I understand pride, and normally I am all for it, but when it comes to your home defence you need to put such things in their place.

    They mostly need to puy their stupidity in tveir ass and corrupt people in jail.

    For 1/4 of the money they spend on rafale, mirage upgradr, apache and tejas they could have bought 100 mig-35 and 100 su-57.

    Their MKI is trash with western made avionics. With indian made stuff it will be as good as a mig-23.

    For the price of one MKI they could have had one su-30MK2 and 1 mig-29M. Abd the western avionics inside are not even critical. Russian stuff would have been just as good.
    Sujoy
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Sujoy Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:39 pm

    The points made regarding the numbers is probably true, if we have to judge using $$ figures only.

    It's possible, though not proved,  that Indian avionics is average. However, why would Western avionics be described as "thrash"? After all, there are no compelling evidence to believe that the avionics sector in the West and especially in the defence sector is in any way less developed than Russia.

    Besides, much like the West, export version of Russian avionics is almost always downgraded.

    GarryB wrote:The fundamental question though, is, are these bits going on the plane because they are the best choice and the most capable available option, or are they going on because they are Indian made?
    "Most capable" would mean comparing them with Western and Russian analogues. Since that comparison has not been made it's difficult to deduct their capability. They are going on because the systems, sub-systems displayed in the image have to be upgraded and these indigenous designs are an option.

    medo wrote: Russia will not give new AESA radar from Su-57 and without new 117S engines, Su-30MKI could not use N036 radar from Su-57 or Irbis from Su-35.
    NPO-AL-41F-1S (117S) is on offer.
    medo wrote:Upgraded Su-30MKI still doesn't get IFDL data link, so it will not be networked and this is a big minus in modern air combat.
    Su 30MKI are already datalinked, they have the Polyot which allows flights of Flankers to share targeting information, designate, attack. However, IAF is now standardizing on it's new Operational Data Link, Israeli hardware/Indian software, a far more advanced system

    medo wrote:Other question is radar and IRST.
    A new domestic IRST is in the works
    GarryB
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:00 am

    [qutoe]It's possible, though not proved, that Indian avionics is average. However, why would Western avionics be described as "thrash"? After all, there are no compelling evidence to believe that the avionics sector in the West and especially in the defence sector is in any way less developed than Russia.[/quote]

    I don't think anyone is saying don't buy western gear at all, but when you take a design like the Su-30 and you put Israeli and French systems in it then of course you are going to break the design because it was never intended to use those systems.

    More importantly those western makers of that kit are not making money selling planes... only selling bits so they will charge top dollar for those bits because they will have to get involved and try to make the damn things work in an alien environment they were never intended to work in.

    Just the same I would not suggest you start ripping stuff out of the Rafale and replace it with Russian gear because that will be even more expensive too despite the parts probably being cheaper.

    "Most capable" would mean comparing them with Western and Russian analogues

    Breaking open something so I can put in something I made myself because I think it might be better is never a good thing to do... it can only create problems.

    Since that comparison has not been made it's difficult to deduct their capability.

    Even if the India gear is slightly better, the added potential problems and cost make it less than ideal in practise.

    NPO-AL-41F-1S (117S) is on offer.

    Likely only to India... and no one else... but this is not appreciated much...

    However, IAF is now standardizing on it's new Operational Data Link, Israeli hardware/Indian software, a far more advanced system

    That is fine, but it has to go into every aircraft... including helicopters and must also be compatible with ground controllers...
    Sujoy
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Sujoy Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:45 am

    GarryB wrote:I don't think anyone is saying don't buy western gear at all, but when you take a design like the Su-30 and you put Israeli and French systems in it then of course you are going to break the design because it was never intended to use those systems.
    Nothing was broken. Su-30MKI from the outset was an open architecture platform.

    Besides, at that time the same were not available from Russia & that’s why the Russian Air Force took more time to order its Su-30SMs. Even Algeria ordered western avionics for the same reason.

    Countries like Vietnam, Indonesia that opted for Russian avionics had all ordered Su-30MKKs & MK2s, not Su-30SM & certainly not the IAF-specific Su-30MKI.

    GarryB wrote:Likely only to India... and no one else... but this is not appreciated much...
    Charging top $$ for it, not doing any favor. If India can afford, the only thing India should appreciate is it's ability to pay such an exorbitant price.

    117S has also been offered to several existing users of Su 30 across South East Asia.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:36 pm

    HAL (India) has assembled the last two Su-30MKI multirole fighters out of 272 under a contract with the Russian Federation and is ready to supply them to the Air Force of its country.

    https://en.topwar.ru/179575-indija-sobrala-dva-poslednih-istrebitelja-su-30mki-v-ramkah-kontrakta-s-rossiej.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:11 am

    Su-30MKI from the outset was an open architecture platform.

    So India must be assembling them all by themselves.... adding and taking bits off as they please in real time....

    Besides, at that time the same were not available from Russia & that’s why the Russian Air Force took more time to order its Su-30SMs. Even Algeria ordered western avionics for the same reason.

    So your reasoning is that Algeria did it too...

    Sukhoi being very accommodating should not be the excuse for doing something that ends up costing you more money.

    Countries like Vietnam, Indonesia that opted for Russian avionics had all ordered Su-30MKKs & MK2s, not Su-30SM & certainly not the IAF-specific Su-30MKI.

    That is right... much cheaper and much simpler design. But being India you probably could have gotten better specs in Russian gear.

    Charging top $$ for it, not doing any favor. If India can afford, the only thing India should appreciate is it's ability to pay such an exorbitant price.

    Of course, only France and the US can overcharge you and get away with it. When making brand new state of the art stuff most Russian planes don't have yet they have to give India a discount in the hopes they will honour Russia by choosing to slum it and buy their products.

    117S has also been offered to several existing users of Su 30 across South East Asia.

    Over what time frame?

    India is looking elsewhere and is improving ties with the US and Japan and Australia, who are all hostile to Russia... how do you expect that to effect ties with Russia?

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    Backman
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    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Empty Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Backman Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:53 am

    Sujoy wrote:Proposed Su-30MKI upgrade

    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Su_30_10


    Of this, integration of upgraded radio altimeter, VOR/ILS & SDRs has been achieved.

    This is madness. They probably have to rewire the entire aircraft. This isn't an upgrade. It's a transformation.

    This is why India should have stuck with the FGFA. Backing out was the worst decision in their military history. They could have designed their stuff into the air frame from the start.

    Fire up the HAL plant. Put this stuff in a new air frame. Get a lic for su 57
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:37 am

    Indian Su-30MKI: News - Page 14 Su_3010

    https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1358270706576949248?s=20
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue May 11, 2021 1:55 pm

    Russia has offered the Su 30SM2 as the baseline for the Super Sukhoi project

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w-Sl7ykuPg


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