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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:15 pm

    Sounds to me like they're putting in double crews for the artillery, probably in preparation for very high-intensity combat operations.

    Muscles need resting after a hard pump you know Laughing

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:27 am

    During WW2 when ship crews were left w/o a ship anymore, they were re-equipped as naval infantry

    The conflict in Afghanistan saw air defence and chemical defence units being sent to Afghanistan... when asked why, they simply said it made more sense to keep a unit together and use it as a unit than to break it up and spread men all over the place in different roles.

    Air defence missile units like an OSA battery were not a lot of use but Shilka and ZU-23 units were put to good use.

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    Post  limb Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:06 pm

    I mean the ukrainians made their pilots into regular infantry and you were laighing at them. Theres NEVER ENOUGH ARTILLERY. Artillery support is hard to come by in the best of times, so any artillery crew counts. Artillery is the god, not king of battle. Infantry are one of the concubines of battle, not the queen. I hope these battalions return to their D-30s. Artillery crews are hard to train, theyre less replaceable than infantry.
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    Post  diabetus Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:55 pm

    Seems to me that new towed guns or at least bringing stored guns back into service would be more expedient than obtaining new SPGs.
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    Post  par far Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:54 pm

    This is a movie made by Wanger, it shows a lot of artillery duels and how in the Russian Army it works. It may not be 100% accurate but pretty close.







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    Post  limb Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:20 am

    Excellent movie. Portrays counterbattery warfare well too.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:31 am

    I mean the ukrainians made their pilots into regular infantry and you were laighing at them. Theres NEVER ENOUGH ARTILLERY. Artillery support is hard to come by in the best of times, so any artillery crew counts. Artillery is the god, not king of battle. Infantry are one of the concubines of battle, not the queen. I hope these battalions return to their D-30s. Artillery crews are hard to train, theyre less replaceable than infantry.

    I'm sure there is never enough artillery, but they're not suffering the bulk of the casualties - the infantry are. And so its the infantry that need constant replenishment.

    During the battle of Mariupol, the Ukrainian marines that surrendered en masse in those videos we saw published - were their communications and logistics platoons. Their infantry platoons had long been wiped out by then.

    Having artillery but not enough infantry is no good either. You can't advance, and are vulnerable to attack.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:07 pm

    I mean the ukrainians made their pilots into regular infantry and you were laighing at them.

    I don't remember that, but there are often a dozen or more pilots for every aircraft so as aircraft get shot down the demand for pilots decreases too.

    Theres NEVER ENOUGH ARTILLERY.

    Not true at all... if the Russian forces were all artillery the enemy could rush them...

    Having your artillery mixed in with your units is useful because it means you always have it available on call... even just 120mm mortars, but dropping their 122mm guns and having support from 152mm and even 203mm regiments, while units operating against dug in forces might have 240mm mortars on call for support is just more flexible and useful.

    They will also have air power available too.... they are not short of support.

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    marcellogo
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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 24 Empty That the russian army lacks infantry...

    Post  marcellogo Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:11 pm

    That the russian army lacks infantry is something the same commanders and staff candidly admit.

    It is something that begin even at squad level that is made by an assault section of 2-3 men and a fire support section of 4 (and squad leaders are prescribed to stay with support section).
    Platoon is three such squads, company is three platoons, a battalion 27 such squads, so 54 assault infantry only.
    Brigades were made just adding some divisional level support unit to the former regiments and no more infantry at all.
    So in the end the SV are a sort of inverted Pyramid, lot of heavy weaponries but no real infantry in them (except than in mountain brigades i.e. 2 in total).

    Hence because in Mariupol, Lisychansk and now Soledar/Bakhmut fightings footages you will see almost exclusively Naval infantry, VDV, Chechens, Rosgvardjia's SOBR teams and Wagner.

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    Post  Robert.V Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:25 pm

    Lack of infantry was visible from day one not only in size but how stretched out the man power was.   There  where plenty of  cases of  24-25 men of infantry support for  regular tank battalion.  Or 5-6 men strong rifle squads.  etc, etc.

    MoD simply applied for years a lot of shine and polish to the readiness reports and it seems plenty of contract soldiers existed only on paper.  And it also quite clear now that  most of the MoD didn't expect to march into Ukraine either.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:27 am

    From the start of WWII you can see it clearly in the orders of battle... as armies got more mechanised and more powerful vehicles and weapons get added the number of troops declines... it was something like a 10,000 man force at the start of the war was a 5,000 man force near the end... but fully mechanised and much much better armed... submachine guns and automatic rifles replacing bolt action rifles and vastly more machine guns and mortars and other weapons... and of course the T-26 tank to JS-3s and T-34/85s and Su-100s... and Polikarpov fighters to La-11s and Yak-3s.

    As armies get more mechanised... made worse by the BMPs which simply didn't have enough room for the troops previous vehicles carried so they had to use BTRs and MTLBs... but their new BMPs are bigger and can carry 10 troops again so this problem is being fixed, but certainly a wakeup call for now...

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    Post  PhSt Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:31 am

    but their new BMPs are bigger and can carry 10 troops again so this problem is being fixed

    Are you referring to Kurganets? I wonder when these units along with Bumerang will be fielded in significant numbers in the Russian army
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    Post  Robert.V Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:07 am

    Both boomer and kurgy are as far as I know supposed carry a squad of 8 men along with additional crew of 3 with a with a emergency extra seat for one more men.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:51 am

    Not sure about the Kurganets (B-15) or Armata (T-15), but the Boomerang has 3 + 8, but the commander of the vehicle and the gunner are part of the squad too, while the driver just provides mobility for the commander and the gunner of course.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/land-forces/armored-combat-vehicles/boomerang/

    Are you referring to Kurganets? I wonder when these units along with Bumerang will be fielded in significant numbers in the Russian army

    They had to change the design a bit after playing around with the prototypes and make it a little bigger, but being wheeled it should be able to be produced rather quicker than tracked models.

    Important to note that the crew figures are for the BMP models so vehicles with 30mm cannon or 57mm grenade launchers in a substantial turret... a BTR model with a remote weapon station with a Kord HMG normally carry more troops, though from what I have seen the 30mm and 57mm gun mount turrets are self contained and don't penetrate into the vehicle hull reducing troop compartment space.
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    Post  marcellogo Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:18 am

    In BMP-2 platoon the squad commander had also the function of vehicle commander and sit in turret but get out with the infantry squad.
    Platoon commander will also do the same and the only one to remain in place would be the will be the vice-platoon commander that will act as the commander of the bronegruppa i.e. the vehicle's units that could also operate independently from the infantry.
    It was however not an optimal solution as only a BMP over three would have a proper commander.
    Probably, already in case of the BMP-3 the problem could already has been solved but I have no precise data on its own squad's composition.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:39 pm

    Artillery control complexes of the Tablet family


    The effectiveness of the combat use of artillery systems of all classes depends not only on their own tactical and technical characteristics and the training of crews. Of great importance are the complexes and fire control systems used, which are responsible for processing incoming information and calculating data for firing. One of the latest domestic developments in this area are the control complexes of the Tablet family, which have already been brought to service in the army.

    Portable version

    One of the developers of control systems for Russian artillery is the All-Russian Research Institute "Signal" (Kovrov), which is part of the NPO High-Precision Complexes under Rostec. At the beginning of the last decade, the institute, on its own initiative and in agreement with the Ministry of Defense, began developing the so-called. small-sized wearable complex for automating the control of artillery and mortar units (KSAU-MN).

    For several years, VNII "Signal" completed the design work, and in the second half of the decade brought the new KSAU-MN to the test. In 2019, the product successfully passed state tests and received a recommendation for acceptance for the supply of artillery units. By this time, the complex was called "Tablet-A".

    In August 2020, it became known that VNII Signal received the first state contract for the production of new complexes. At that time, the organization was preparing a production line and in the near future planned to transfer the first batch of products to the customer. The needs of the troops in "Tablets-A", the ordered number of such devices, the cost of the contract, etc. were not reported.

    To date, the artillery units of our army have received a number of Tablet-A complexes, mastered them and tested them in training grounds. According to domestic media, the new KSAU-MN are actively used during the Special Operation to Protect Donbass. With their help, artillery is included in full-fledged reconnaissance and strike systems with high speed and accuracy of fire.

    The main buyer of "Plates-A" is the Russian army, but foreign orders are also expected. Back in 2020, VNII "Signal" completed the development of the export image of the complex. It provides for some specific differences and the possibility of integration with foreign means of intelligence, communications, etc.

    Self-propelled variant

    The basic version of KSAU-MN "Tablet-A" is made in the form of several devices in shipping cases and is wearable. It is easy to use and has the necessary characteristics and capabilities. At the same time, portable execution imposes some restrictions, which we decided to get rid of in the new project.

    In 2021, VNII Signal presented the Tablet-M-IR artillery control automation system. Its main difference lies in the use of a self-propelled base in the form of an armored car. The shown prototypes were built on the basis of the Athlete machine, but other platforms can also be used.

    The necessary radio-electronic equipment, food supplies, etc. are placed in the interior of the armored car. In addition, two automated workplaces of operators were organized at once. From the point of view of the composition of devices, technical and operational characteristics, Tablet-M-IR differs significantly from the basic complex with the letter “A”, but its functions, tasks and capabilities generally remain the same.

    Currently, the mobile version of KSAU-MN is being tested, the results of which will decide its future. The positive experience of the previous project and the specifics of the work of modern artillery suggest that the Tablet-M-IR will be of interest to the Russian army and will also enter the troops in the foreseeable future.

    Devices and their capabilities

    The portable complex "Tablet-A" is a set of several tools of various kinds with different functions. All of them have minimal dimensions and weight, making it easy to integrate them into the equipment of the gun or battery commander. Protected cases with built-in chargers and batteries are intended for storage and transportation of these devices.

    The main element of KSAU-MN is the commander's tablet computer. This device is in a durable sealed case, built on a modern domestic element base, with special software. The computer interfaces with wireless communications, intelligence systems, etc., which ensures the reception and delivery of data.


    Workplaces of the self-propelled complex "Tablet-M-IR"

    The commander's tablet determines the location of the artillery unit, receives and processes information about targets from various sources, and also calculates data for firing. It is reported that in the memory of "Tablet-A" there are data on all artillery systems and ammunition in service with the Russian army. This allows him to control the fire of any units, regardless of their equipment. In addition, it is possible to supplement the database when new types of weapons or ammunition appear.

    Information about the terrain and targets is given using different maps, both military and taken in open civilian services. This approach makes it possible to obtain more complete and up-to-date information about the combat area and enemy positions.

    A special small-sized terminal is intended for gun commanders. This is a small wrist device with a screen for displaying information and a radio communication system. With its help, the crew commander receives ready-made data for firing, calculated by the subunit commander's tablet.

    The mobile complex "Tablet-M-IR" differs from the wearable one in the composition of devices and in some capabilities. So, his calculation includes two people, which allows you to distribute work and solve more problems. In addition, new means of communication with a longer range and other advantages have been introduced in the mobile KSAU-MN.


    In the recent past, the development organization has talked about the possibility of introducing additional features. So, Tablet-M-IR could not only work with data in digital form, but also receive a video signal and other information from reconnaissance UAVs. This would speed up the process of preparing for firing and simplify the adjustment of fire. In addition, a drone with a laser designator that interacts with the "Tablet" can be used to guide corrected projectiles.

    There is a fundamental possibility of further modernization of both versions of the Tablet. They can be upgraded by replacing communication or computing devices with analogues with higher performance. In addition, the timely updating of the database of weapons and ammunition used for calculations is of great importance.

    In the process of refurbishment

    Thus, a new convenient and successful means of fire control appeared at the disposal of our gunners. The Tablet-A wearable complex is mass-produced and supplied to units and subunits of the ground forces, where they are used with various types of artillery systems. In addition, a mobile version of such a complex with improved characteristics and an extended list of functions has been created and is being tested.

    Obviously, the production and implementation of such control systems is of great importance for the development of ground artillery. The industry has mastered their production and gradually covers the needs of the troops, providing them with the necessary capabilities. In addition, in parallel with the production, the development of the original product is carried out, as a result of which the complex receives new functions. All this allows us to be optimistic about the prospects of our field artillery.

    https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/209633-kompleksy-upravlenija-artilleriej-semejstva-planshet.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:55 pm

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 24 Scree581
    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 24 Scree582
    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 24 Scree583
    A few stills from the last Combat Approved. Phlox 120mm mortar.

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    Post  diabetus Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:25 pm

    Would it take much to develop a bigger krasnopol or similar round for pion?
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    Post  xeno Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:50 pm

    To Hole,
    Where did you find this episode of Combat Approved? I cannot find it on Youtube or otvaga2004....
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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:26 pm

    Direct at the source: Zvezda TV.  Wink
    It´s about the Artillery Academy in St. Petersburg.
    The sequence with the Phlox is at the end of the episode. Just a few seconds, firing a shot or two.
    Maybe they show more in one of the next episodes.

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    Post  limb Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:53 am

    And ofc no flox or drok in the area of SMO
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:24 am

    Limb if Russia was allotted 250 to 300 billion a year in defense I might sympathize with you. Up till very recently they have had a defense budget about the size of the big European states. While they have been floundering Russia has a land, sea, and aerospace complex that rivals all of Europe.

    Woulent you be more comfortable in one of the many doomer ruskie defense forums? Ffs it seems us outsiders care about Russia's sovereignty more than many Russians.

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:14 am

    Russia has more or less defined its nuclear tipped rounds precisely to nuclear weapons in strategic and tactical sense. I don't believe they bothered to develop anything new beyond maybe some basic research papers and that's it. I don't really see it reasonable or necessary to use such rounds in today's conflicts and can be used only for last resort weapons.

    Unlike US that uses depleted Uranium rounds. While effective, you can get rather close to its performance with newer rounds and no need for radioactive dangers.

    But I wouldn't be surprised if some companies and research groups are looking at restarting such a development if the west keeps playing stupid games.

    Edit: Don't bother with Limb. Guys a troll. And honestly, if everyone just put him on ignore, he may go away.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:10 pm

    Would it take much to develop a bigger krasnopol or similar round for pion?

    They have a laser guided shell for Tulip... 240mm....

    They adapted one of their gun fired anti tank missiles so it could be used in four different guns including the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3, the 100mm rifled gun of the T-54/55 (different propellent case), the 100mm smoothbore gun of the MT-12, and there was also a version designed to be used with a sabot to be fired in the 115mm smoothbore of the T-62.

    They also had the unrelated Gran for 120mm gun mortars, and the Kitilov for 122mm calibre weapons (that can also be fired in the 120mm gun mortars).

    I was under the impression that they had guided 203mm rounds already but have not seen any evidence... the 203mm has been very useful in the current conflict but previously they didn't use it a lot.. hopefully current experience will result in new ammo for it.

    The new Coalition rounds have a guidance kit built into the nose mounted fuse... which means the fuse is the guidance package... and 203mm shells have the same sized fuse pocket at the 152mm artillery (as does the 160mm and 240mm calibres).

    You're right, but on the other hand, sometimes MoD sets too high standards for weapon systems, while not willing to pay the price.

    Challenging the Russian MIC to give good value for money is not a bad thing when you see the results of the US throwing money at companies and not caring if the product even works properly yet.

    It does not hurt to want better, but right now they are outperforming the entire west on a budget the west would waste on a good night out.

    Or, their procurement was not in step with times. For example, they had concepts ready for Pion guided round by Kompas for a while now, and didn't go for it. Also, Kosmos design bureau had a precision guidance kit for arty rounds ready more than 10 years ago and nothing was done with it.

    That is normal though isn't it... when you can't afford everything and anything you want to be sure you are getting value for money.

    Experience in Syria and now Ukraine it will become rather obvious what value such things are and they will be bought in volumes to make them useful and deadly.

    But to get back on topic: has anyone heard anything of newer nuclear rounds for Russian gun artillery? The last one I'm aware of is the RD4-01 for D-20s, which is likely not in service anymore.

    Back on topic... excellent...

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 24 152mm_10

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 24 152mm_11

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    Post  Begome Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:52 pm

    Anymore info on that shell, e.g. name, yield, year etc? It looks slightly different from the RD4-01, but not by much.

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