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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    GarryB
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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Empty Re: Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    Post  GarryB 04.11.21 5:32

    203mm guns and 240mm mortars are always going to be big heavier vehicles, but a modernised lighter cheaper wheeled version actually makes a lot of sense in terms of mobility over even short distances, and would probably be lighter and easier to ship than previous tracked versions.

    Interesting there is a wheeled version of the 240mm mortar because I would love to see a new wheeled version of the 203mm gun too... mainly because I would like to see a new naval version of the 203mm gun with new long range ammo of the type developed for the Coalition.

    Even if they don't make a wheeled version of the 203mm gun I would like to see them develop a new range of long range ammo for it.

    In naval terms a 240mm weapon would only be of any use in a naval gun support role being located very close to the beach the landing is taking place on.... the HE bomb would be devastating but a bit risky having to be within 20km of the beach to support operations there.

    In comparison the 70km range for the 152mm ammo not to mention the hoped for 180km range ammo would be rather more useful with GLONASS guided shells, or a 203mm equivalent... even assuming the same 180km range for many small targets that could replace some shorter ranged anti ship missiles and in terms of accurate all weather day and night shelling capacity that would be very impressive.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir 04.11.21 10:38

    The 203mm gun is likely to be too powerful for a wheeled chassis - even a 155mm is quite a challenge to mount successfully on a truck. The 203 is so powerful that it requires an alarm to warn the crew to clear the area before a shot can be fired.

    EDIT: I think the largest caliber gun we're going to see on a ship could well be the twin 152mm Koalitsiya on the Nakhimov?
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 23.01.22 18:37

    Just gonna leave this excellent article here:
    https://www.revistaejercitos.com/2022/01/23/la-artilleria-rusa/

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 24.01.22 6:27

    The 203mm gun is likely to be too powerful for a wheeled chassis - even a 155mm is quite a challenge to mount successfully on a truck. The 203 is so powerful that it requires an alarm to warn the crew to clear the area before a shot can be fired.

    (Thinking about it.... ) I agree, the only way to get a 203mm gun on a wheeled chassis would be to have a reduced power 203mm gun, which pretty much defeats the entire purpose of having a 203mm gun really.

    203mm land guns would only be used in specialist artillery units and would only be based on lightened Armata chassis.

    EDIT: I think the largest caliber gun we're going to see on a ship could well be the twin 152mm Koalitsiya on the Nakhimov?

    Ships have traditionally been fitted with absolutely enormous guns that make the 203mm gun look like a pea shooter because water absorbs recoil very very efficiently.

    Older generation guns got bigger and heavier as armour was added to ships... a bit like tanks but on a much more expensive scale, but aircraft bombs and missiles rendered the armour deadweight, so they became light again and so lighter guns were used along with missiles to destroy enemy ships.

    The thing is that like the F-35 programme, the Zumwalt class ship with its special guns was a good idea, but the messed it up.

    What the US Navy should have done was said to the Army... hey... we want a powerful long range gun we can use instead of expensive missiles and inefficient rockets. Lets work together on a shared gun design, we can make it a standard design... 155mm or 203mm are common for the US Army and Navy... 6 inch and 8 inch guns.... they could get together and develop new ammo, new guns, new propellent, new projectiles etc etc new automatic feed mechanisms etc etc.

    Don't expect enormous ranges to start... work in stages... the point is that a 203mm gun is useful for landing force support... and a very long range heavy gun that is accurate is a valuable thing because a 203mm artillery shell that is 110kgs of mostly HE warhead that can be fired to 200km would be an excellent way of dealing with surface vessel threats... even a solid steel shot round round that has no HE that punches a hole right through the front of an enemy ship... a Phalanx would be useless.... most SAMs would be useless because they work by making the warhead explode, but a solid round would just keep coming... it wont do as much damage as a HE round but it will certainly have an effect when it punches a hole deep into the target.

    A large ship could carry thousands of shells for sustained support in any weather day or night for landed troops.

    An enormous range of shells could be developed including communications jamming rounds to fire into the enemy troop positions so they are cut off from command.

    Just gonna leave this excellent article here:

    Interesting article, but lots of subtle jabs, like Russian artillery not being constrained by moral rules of engagement when it comes to artillery fire amongst non combatants... suggesting laser guided ammo is not so important for them... ignoring the enormous range of laser guided artillery rounds they have and also use...

    And mentioning Bellingcat as a research centre, when in fact they are a propaganda centre.


    Last edited by GarryB on 25.01.22 6:03; edited 1 time in total

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    marcellogo
    marcellogo


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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Empty Re: Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    Post  marcellogo 24.01.22 14:46

    GarryB wrote:

    EDIT: I think the largest caliber gun we're going to see on a ship could well be the twin 152mm Koalitsiya on the Nakhimov?

    Ships have traditionally been fitted with absolutely enormous guns that make the 203mm gun look like a pea shooter because water absorbs recoil very very efficiently.

    Older generation guns got bigger and heavier as armour was added to ships... a bit like tanks but on a much more expensive scale, but aircraft bombs and missiles rendered the armour deadweight, so they became light again and so lighter guns were used along with missiles to destroy enemy ships.

    The thing is that like the F-35 programme, the Zumwalt class ship with its special guns was a good idea, but the messed it up.

    What the US Navy should have done was said to the Army... hey... we want a powerful long range gun we can use instead of expensive missiles and inefficient rockets. Lets work together on a shared gun design, we can make it a standard design... 155mm or 203mm are common for the US Army and Navy... 6 inch and 8 inch guns.... they could get together and develop new ammo, new guns, new propellent, new projectiles etc etc new automatic feed mechanisms etc etc.

    Don't expect enormous ranges to start... work in stages... the point is that a 203mm gun is useful for landing force support... and a very long range heavy gun that is accurate is a valuable thing because a 203mm artillery shell that is 110kgs of mostly HE warhead that can be fired to 200km would be an excellent way of dealing with surface vessel threats... even a solid steel shot round round that has no HE that punches a hole right through the front of an enemy ship... a Phalanx would be useless.... most SAMs would be useless because they work by making the warhead explode, but a solid round would just keep coming... it wont do as much damage as a HE round but it will certainly have an effect when it punches a hole deep into the target.

    A large ship could carry thousands of shells for sustained support in any weather day or night for landed troops.

    An enormous range of shells could be developed including communications jamming rounds to fire into the enemy troop positions so they are cut off from command.  

    GarryB, look that a such system already exist and it is already in service in the Nato navy that has the most capable weaponries of the whole lot by decades: the most capable ASM missile, the most capable anti-submarine missile, the WAY most performant artillery pieces, the most performant CIWS system  and that's actualy putting forth ships like crazy...the Marina Militare Italiana.

    It is called Vulcano.

    https://electronics.leonardo.com/en/products/vulcano-127mm


    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Ngcb8

    No need to install a different gun on your ship: as you just need to put a different sabot to adapt it to a another caliber.
    It worked so well on 127mm and 155mm ì that we developed a different smaller one for our 76mm(with an added double feed system for using it together with Dardo ones) .
    At the contrary, it could be wise for our army to look at the possibility of adapting the 127mm gun of Navy on a wheeled chassis as it is certainly easieer ti handle.
    GarryB
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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Empty Re: Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    Post  GarryB 25.01.22 6:12

    Interesting, but the Americans with the Zumwalt gun and the Russians with the naval Coalition are aiming for much better range, but also a decent HE payload as well.

    To blunt an attack a few hundred hits with APFSDS rounds might be interesting on a ship like a helicopter landing carrier or a cruiser, but it might be a bit hit and miss regarding other platforms... it is certainly an area of weapons that seems to be ignored.

    Of course US Navy Phalanx gatlings fire subcalibre DU rounds to defeat incoming threats, while the Soviet 30mm guns fire HEI and HE rounds to try to detonate the warhead on the incoming round.
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door 25.01.22 12:02

    GarryB wrote:Interesting, but the Americans with the Zumwalt gun and the Russians with the naval Coalition are aiming for much better range, but also a decent HE payload as well.

    The american 155mm naval gun fires a subcalibre rocket assisted round that has a hillariously minute warhead.
    marcellogo
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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Empty Re: Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    Post  marcellogo 25.01.22 18:48

    GarryB wrote:Interesting, but the Americans with the Zumwalt gun and the Russians with the naval Coalition are aiming for much better range, but also a decent HE payload as well.

    To blunt an attack a few hundred hits with APFSDS rounds might be interesting on a ship like a helicopter landing carrier or a cruiser, but it might be a bit hit and miss regarding other platforms... it is certainly an area of weapons that seems to be ignored.

    Of course US Navy Phalanx gatlings fire subcalibre DU rounds to defeat incoming threats, while the Soviet 30mm guns fire HEI and HE rounds to try to detonate the warhead on the incoming round.

    APFSDS???? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL, what? NarTurally Vulcano like previously even dardo are HE projectiles, with a quantity of explosive comparable to the one of standard full bore round and superior to a equivalent RAP one.

    Ok, Let's begin to square one:

    Believe it or not there a country called Italia.

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 OIP

    And even more unbelievable, it has Armed Forces and between them even a Navy called Marina Militare Italiana (MMI).

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 R.0de3385b4f88fcb066dd849625c1019e?rik=wupLlRbEHYEXWQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.marina.difesa.it%2fnoi-siamo-la-marina%2fstoria%2fla-nostra-storia%2ftradizioni%2fPublishingImages%2ffigura_08

    Now, even more incredible, such a  Navy not just have armed shis but it eeven has a long tradition of indipendently develop, produce, install and use operatively their own weaponries (and radars too).

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 R.63f309df56277083802db0c9accc72e9?rik=y20k33ojEI%2f9ow&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.military-today.com%2fmissiles%2fotomat_l2
    OTOMAT Anti ship missile
    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Aspide-1.001-900x500-1
    Albatros launcher with Aspide missile.

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 430197
    Marte "light" anti ship missile.

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 R.83d485c36700f4d11e1ba6e8b391baa7?rik=jNTgF2HdWSunKA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.naval.com.br%2fblog%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2009%2f01%2fmilas2
    Milas anti submarine missile.

    ...and it did so because it is usually absolutely unsatisfied by weaponries offered in international market into satisfing their own requirements and in the same time even more uncompromising at the idea of lowering them.
    For this reason its own designed weaponries are between the more performing (and by far) you would find into NATO naval arsenal at any given time.

    This above all when it came to naval artillery, for what they have a dedication that sometime border fanatism.

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Nave-audace

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 R.3ec4ee617ff59042fec8455507903b7a?rik=T%2fcydLW4qwe%2fcw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.maquetland.com%2fupload%2fphototeque%2fimages%2f6348%2fvittorio_veneto_550_babord_arriere_pont_envol_tourelle_breda_dardo_oto_melara+76-62_mmi+(4)

    (continue... dog need to make a walk).

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos 25.01.22 19:27

    They used to have all of this. Now they buy US f-35 and make collaborations to create even the cheapest stuff they use.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir 25.01.22 20:29

    Now, even more incredible, such a  Navy not just have armed shis but it eeven has a long tradition of indipendently develop, produce, install and use operatively their own weaponries (and radars too).

    Italy had a great navy during the Cold War years. Even the Maestrale-class frigates were very well armed and compared favorably with other NATO destroyer sized ships. The Otomat anti-ship missiles were by far the best in the NATO arsenal. Well even today they have a very capable navy and shipbuilding industry. I do miss the Vittorio Veneto. Smile

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo 26.01.22 0:55

    Isos wrote:They used to have all of this. Now they buy US f-35 and make collaborations to create even the cheapest stuff they use.

    Well, before of that we used AV-8BII*i.e. the radar ecquipped version of harrier, whose development was initiated at our (and spanish) demand and it was armed with AARGM anti-radar missiles, an joint venture between the US DoD and our MoD.
    Our F-35B will be produced in Italy, incidentally less15 km from where I am writing now, unique nation of NATO with such a privilege...

    So, our partecipation to an internatinal cooperation program or even a foreign buy doesn't come neither cheap nor passive.
    We buyed U-212 also but partecipated in its development, all others buyed inferior U-214 off the shelf.

    Now, to continue the previous tirade.
    Between those artillery system, a very particular niche was and still is our own Ciws systems that were always noteably different from the ones used by ALL other nations.

    When others used those lightweights:

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 R

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 0yRlCgiJuzaOMpzH3Pc5xjgV-ZvMwQMJdmELNhvdr8k

    We started with this.

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 OIP
    Twin 40L70 turret with Dardo FCS (that could also guide aspide missiles).

    After it , being the prudent people we are, found it not sufficently performing against supersonic missiles, so we used this as our standard CIWS system.

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 143lqhev9ps31

    OTO 76mm SR (Super Rapido)

    Still unsatisfied we went to this, passing to guided projectiles:

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Oto_Melara_Strales_76mm_Euronaval_2012_news

    76mm STRALES with:
    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 Davide_1

    Dardo decalibrated guided round.

    Actually , it is not still not over as we are actually introducing in service our fourth CIWS system, the 76mm SOVRAPONTE

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 1otmxiydpnb31

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 76%2BSOVRA%2BIMG_20160702_090415_zpsk1tpzgwj

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 18 R.2cd98d6404f1f45b8554948951b27132?rik=wYOVX%2f1Iv4jERg&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mdc.idv.tw%2fmdc%2fnavy%2feuronavy%2foto76-sovraponte

    So, given that from the very first one of all those systems we went for proximity fuzed rounds instead of direct impact ones, reading someone still have not noticed it in the last forty tofifty years and think that a DARD/STRALES or a VULCANO is an armor piercing round...silent silent silent silent silent silent silent silent

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 26.01.22 3:59

    Thank you for the education Marcello, but I don't think this is the correct thread for it.

    I rather think it deserves its own thread, if you would like to make one I can transfer the relevant posts if you like.

    Sadly the media and marketing machine of the US and to a lessor degree UK and France, other countries with defence talent often get ignored or under rated.

    When others used those lightweights:

    To be fair the Soviets and Russians also used Kashtan with 30mm guns and missiles plus naval TOR and naval OSA and other missiles as well as 57mm and 76.2mm and 100mm and 130mm guns with proximity fused shells and were also interested in dealing with sea skimming supersonic anti ship missiles and had plenty of good examples to test their systems on.

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo 26.01.22 19:12

    GarryB wrote:Thank you for the education Marcello, but I don't think this is the correct thread for it.

    I rather think it deserves its own thread, if you would like to make one I can transfer the relevant posts if you like.

    Sadly the media and marketing machine of the US and to a lessor degree UK and France, other countries with defence talent often get ignored or under rated.

    When others used those lightweights:

    To be fair the Soviets and Russians also used Kashtan with 30mm guns and missiles plus naval TOR and naval OSA and other missiles as well as 57mm and 76.2mm and 100mm and 130mm guns with proximity fused shells and were also interested in dealing with sea skimming supersonic anti ship missiles and had plenty of good examples to test their systems on.

    My preferred option would to leave them here, maybe with me removing the pictures that made those post quite heavy but to open another one in Russian Navy sector about their own artillery system compared to the one used by Nato nation (and here, with the 76L62mm COMPATTO making more than half of the lot, Italy is absolutely a force to be reckoned with), Chinese and neutral ones (here Sweden have to be mentioned).
    Or revive an already existing one if it exist.

    For what it come to your own notes, my comparison was made between the twin 40L70 Dardosystem and the respective contemporary systems of seventies /eighties.
    Similarity between solutions used by Soviet/Russian and Italian naval forces was always present and well perceived, although obviously not related one to the other and they were dictated by the fact that those Navies were both oriented, by geograhical constraint and, in our case, by  deliberate choice, still upholded even today, to operate in restricted sea areas but in a way that cannot be covered just by something akin to a modern coastal /Petit Ecole force.
    Just a quick comparison would show it: helicopter cruiser for both, later evolved in heavily armed STOVL ones, even more heavily armed Destroyer and Frigates, even at expense of crew accomodation, a lot of corvettes for both... and so on and on.

    On the antimissile systems, it's quite evident that both navies examined the problem in depth and found parallel evidencies, others was evidently not so persistentand went to (IMHO) half assed solutions.
    George1
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    Post  George1 29.01.22 0:16

    In the Rostov region, servicemen of artillery units of the 150th motorized rifle division of the Southern Military District fired at distant targets from 2A65 Msta-B towed howitzers.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 07.02.22 17:33

    Live firing from Msta-S and Msta-B howitzers was carried out by artillerymen of the tank formation of the Western Military District as part of an exercise at the Alabino training ground in the Moscow Region.

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    Post  George1 15.02.22 2:44

    152mm 2S3 Akatsiya and 100mm MT-12 Rapira gun

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 15.02.22 15:01

    Looks like practicing direct fire some of those shells looked like pads

    Also those italian naval cwis look awesome. Makes me wonder if the 57mm guided warhead developed very recently could be used on 57mm russian naval gun.
    George1
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    Post  George1 15.02.22 17:44

    152mm 2S3 Akatsiya in exercise "Allied Resolve-2022"

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    Post  George1 21.02.22 18:34

    120-mm mortar complexes 2S12 "Sani" and 122-mm howitzers D-30.

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