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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:11 am

    if they wanted speed then a Vasilek mortar design firing at a cyclic rate of well over 100 rounds per minute would have been an obvious choice... replace the four bomb clip with a continuous belt feed
    That was exactly what I expected it to be when I first saw it.

    I had never heard of Vasilek until I saw footage of it being used in Donbas on the back of a truck in pop out, shoot & scoot mode.
    I was very shocked & impressed by the firepower it could produce.

    With Russia working on several modernised official Technical type vehicles & emphasis on unmanned, automated turrets a belt-fed (semi?)automatic 82mm mortar on a 4*4 MRAP sounds absolutely perfect for providing rapid, devastating firepower support for hard-pressed airborne troops.
    If properly designed I'd expect it to have a more precise single-shot mode available too.

    Edit: oh, there is a rather larger weight cost of that automatic mechanism than I realised Suspect
    Vasilek is over 600kg vs modern 82mm muzzle loading infantry mortars are in the 40kg range so yeah thats more than an order of magnitude.

    On the other hand this turret has a recoil system, breech & elevation mechanism which will be a decent part of the extra weight of Vasilek so maybe not that much of a weight difference to add auto-fire dunno

    Edit2:
    This (overdramatised!) video shows interior & loading

    It does look like a pretty light implementation.
    Also carries 40 rounds of 82mm onboard apparently, some reports the mortar can also be demounted & fired from the ground if needed.

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    Post  Mir Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:16 pm

    I had never heard of Vasilek until I saw footage of it being used in Donbas on the back of a truck in pop out, shoot & scoot mode.
    I was very shocked & impressed by the firepower it could produce.

    It was introduced into the Soviet Army back in the 70's already and saw heavy action in the Soviet-Afghanistan War.

    Quite unique even to this day! One of many "no analogue" weapons in the Russia or Soviet arsenal. Smile

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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:00 am

    I had never heard of Vasilek until I saw footage of it being used in Donbas on the back of a truck in pop out, shoot & scoot mode.
    I was very shocked & impressed by the firepower it could produce.

    It is a very potent system... if you wanted to lay smoke it would be ideal for getting a screen up quickly over a wide area, and for enemy troops in the open with no cover it could deluge the area in HE very quickly.


    With Russia working on several modernised official Technical type vehicles & emphasis on unmanned, automated turrets a belt-fed (semi?)automatic 82mm mortar on a 4*4 MRAP sounds absolutely perfect for providing rapid, devastating firepower support for hard-pressed airborne troops.
    If properly designed I'd expect it to have a more precise single-shot mode available too.

    Very much agree, but I have not seen any information about a Vasilek-M yet...

    Vasilek is over 600kg vs modern 82mm muzzle loading infantry mortars are in the 40kg range so yeah thats more than an order of magnitude.

    For the towed model that is not as important as you might think as the wheels make it rather mobile and also stops it jumping around too much when it fires.

    It is designed so a unit with towed weapons can come to a halt, deploy the gun... fire off 8 rounds per gun and leave in a very short time... a very very short time...

    They made gun/mortars out of 120mm weapons... perhaps a shell with propellent charge for a 82mm gun/mortar might be interesting.

    I suspect the fact that the 120mm rounds are so much more powerful and versatile limits the 82mm interest to super light weight man portable weapons... though this system obviously suggests further mechanisation...

    On the other hand this turret has a recoil system, breech & elevation mechanism which will be a decent part of the extra weight of Vasilek so maybe not that much of a weight difference to add auto-fire

    I think perhaps the question is not so much can they, but why should they...

    I rather suspect precision is more value than rate of fire... the latter often scattering rounds and making them less effective against protected targets.

    This (overdramatised!) video shows interior & loading

    I like it.

    The video clearly shows the system is fully automated in terms of receiving target data... it is an all weather system where the crew don't need to go out in the cold to do their job... just slip off the barrel muzzle cover point the gun and fire. Having a stabilised machine gun with thermals to protect the unit and being able to stop and fire and then move instantly makes it an excellent shoot and scoot system. The crew and the machine gun support crew are protected from light small arms fire and fragments by the vehicle and it has good mobility and speed.

    Just a question of how much extra it would cost. Also of course in some terrain you might need to carry it anyway... so it is not going to replace the man portable mortar.

    If the mortar unit is used to support an attack by lobbing bombs at an enemy position to force them to keep their heads down, then this sort of system would be excellent... sneak up via dead ground and shoot and move.... with a MG to protect yourself too.

    Also carries 40 rounds of 82mm onboard apparently, some reports the mortar can also be demounted & fired from the ground if needed.

    If that is not enough ammo I am sure a second troop transport Tigr could operate with it with extra ammo for both weapons... and perhaps even a drone to find targets...

    Some of the video shows a mortar base plate on the rear of the vehicle so it clearly can be used dismounted, but probably only as a muzzle loaded weapon rather than a breach loaded one.

    A Typhoon is a slightly heavier vehicle family with 4x4 and 6x6 wheeled vehicles but I think they would use bigger 120mm gun/mortars.

    For Small 4x4 Tigr vehicles you could have quite a team with 30mm cannon armed turrets, Kornet missiles, Igla twin launchers, this 82mm mortar, as well as light troop transports and vehicles carrying drones and other equipment.

    For a standard division I would think Armata and Boomerang and Kurganets and even Typhoon could probably use the 120mm mortars instead, but for very light forces... VDV and recon forces this would be much lighter even when fully loaded up.

    It would benefit from being part of the artillery network they have created too.

    It was introduced into the Soviet Army back in the 70's already and saw heavy action in the Soviet-Afghanistan War.

    Quite unique even to this day! One of many "no analogue" weapons in the Russia or Soviet arsenal.

    I believe the French also have a range of automatic mortars... they have mounted some on small boats...

    Quite a potent weapon that is not particularly heavy.

    Quite interestingly I seem to remember a plan to fit a Vasilek... to a Humvee... it was an American programme... the Vasilek was chosen because of its size and calibre and fire power... pretty sure it didn't make it to service but would be quite interesting... the core advantage of the Vasilek is that being an 82mm mortar it can use all the 82mm Soviet and Russian and eastern european ammo stocks, but can also fire western 81mm ammo too... though with slightly reduced performance to normal weapons.

    Had a look at the US army started with the Vasilek on he Humvee and called it the Scorpion... but obviously cheap and simple is a problem for the US so the made it much more complicated and expensive...

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20077/army-shows-off-awesome-automatic-mortar-system-thats-still-too-expensive-to-field

    It had spent years before that experimenting with a weapon system known as Scorpion, consisting of a simpler Humvee-mounted Soviet-designed 2B9 Vasilek soft-recoil, semi-automatic mortar. That weapon feeds from four-round magazines and has a practical rate of fire of up to 180 rounds per minute.

    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 17 Messag12

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:19 am

    Damn that american attempt at an "improved" Vasilek is terrible, twice the size and it seems to have completely lost the sustained fire capability.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:50 pm

    2S4 mortars getting it on... I like to think each round lands on the head of a bunch of Azov MFers. Twisted Evil

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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:01 pm

    No Nuland Twisted Evil

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    Post  hoom Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:22 pm

    If that is not enough ammo I am sure a second troop transport Tigr could operate with it with extra ammo for both weapons... and perhaps even a drone to find targets...
    ...
    A Typhoon is a slightly heavier vehicle family with 4x4 and 6x6 wheeled vehicles but I think they would use bigger 120mm gun/mortars.
    This is Typhoon not Tigr, its based on Typhoon K-53949 4*4.

    Typhoon K-4386 is a slightly smaller, several tons lighter version for VDV.


    I'm thinking you could probably do an automatic version but as you say you'd need a separate 2nd vehicle as ammo carrier to stay within weight limits.
    So the calculation is probably that 2* this more simple version works out more reliable/flexible overall (eg if you air drop and one vehicles chutes don't deploy)

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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:25 am

    I believe the main problem for the US Scorpion on the Humvee was excessive recoil... normally the recoil from the Vasilek is absorbed by the ground, but putting it on a truck or four wheel vehicle puts a lot of strain on the chassis and the suspension.

    This vehicle has a machine gun on top but only for self defence, though in the mountains it might be an interesting vehicle for long range fire power where its range of 6km makes it pretty useful. In the advert on the export site it mentions the mortar can be lowered to the point of being horizontal for direct fire use...

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/land-forces/missile-systems-multiple-rocket-launchers-mrl-atgm-systems-and-field-artillery-guns/drok/

    An important factor of course is that their new armoured vehicles have unmanned turrets so an automatic mortar... even if it does not fire rapidly like the Vasilek, but has a full automated ammo feed that can change between ammo types might be something they are developing for their new vehicle families... this one being a small light simple vehicle... would they consider a 6 wheeled Typhoon version with a 120mm gun/mortar, or for that matter the much bigger Boomerang and Kurganets and Armata?

    A vehicle that is very mobile and well armoured could even be useful on a COIN battlefield... delivering direct fire makes it rather accurate and a 4kg 82mm mortar bomb will ruin most vehicles with one hit...

    Note on the advert above the bit below the title basically says high mobility and improved protection of the mortar squad, which is essentially what it is... small arms protection, plus a machine gun with day night all weather sights, and smoke grenades, as well as communication and not having to dig in and set up every time they stop and then pack up every time they move...

    With good communication and good coordination you could have four or five of these vehicles around the place but when needed they could all coordinate their fire onto one target at the same time leading to devastating fire support options.

    I rather like the vehicle.
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    Post  hoom Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:35 am

    would they consider a 6 wheeled Typhoon version with a 120mm gun/mortar
    Thats basically Phlox (is on an armored Ural but I don't think its Typhoon-U)
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:21 am

    The point is that armoured divisions have mortar platoons, so in an Armata div or a Kurganets div or a Boomerang div or a Typhoon based mobile independent mortar platoon or regiment that in these divisions there would be an armata, kurganets, boomerang, or typhoon based mortar vehicle...

    Traditionally towed mortars have been 82mm or 120mm but vehicle based mortars have been 120mm mounted systems like the NONA on the BMD vehicle or the BTR based version...

    I don't know whether a tank division has a mortar platoon, but I am pretty sure a motor rifle division does.
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    Post  franco Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:The point is that armoured divisions have mortar platoons, so in an Armata div or a Kurganets div or a Boomerang div or a Typhoon based mobile independent mortar platoon or regiment that in these divisions there would be an armata, kurganets, boomerang, or typhoon based mortar vehicle...

    Traditionally towed mortars have been 82mm or 120mm but vehicle based mortars have been 120mm mounted systems like the NONA on the BMD vehicle or the BTR based version...

    I don't know whether a tank division has a mortar platoon, but I am pretty sure a motor rifle division does.

    Motor rifle battalions have a mortar battery but tank battalions don't. Tank division/regiment/brigade would all include Motor rifle battalions in support.

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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:42 pm

    I don't know how accurate my info is but the mortars (up to eight) are only available for BTR equipped battalions.
    An armoured brigade should have at least one MR BTR equipped battalion.
    The BMP batallions will normally have 2s1's in direct support (up to 18).

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    Post  franco Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:04 pm

    Mir wrote:I don't know how accurate my info is but the mortars (up to eight) are only available for BTR equipped battalions.
    An armoured brigade should have at least one MR BTR equipped battalion.
    The BMP batallions will normally have 2s1's in direct support (up to 18).

    BMP battalion's would also have a mortar battery of 6-8 units. And usually a Tank regiment / brigade has a BMP battalion. The only organizational difference between a BMP and a BTR battalion is that the BMP battalion does not have a separate ATGM platoon due to each BMP already having an ATGM. The artillery support (2S1, etc) comes when a BTG (battalion tactical group) is created and from a battery to a battalion may be added along with other units. This applies to BMP, BTR or Tank BTG's.

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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:52 pm

    I don't know how dated my info is but the Armoured and Mechanized Heavy Brigades should have a separate artillery regiment with 36 2s19's and 18 BM-21's. The 2S1's (up to 90 in total) should be attached to the individual Tank and MR Battalions?
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    Post  franco Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:44 pm

    Mir wrote:I don't know how dated my info is but the Armoured and Mechanized Heavy Brigades should have a separate artillery regiment with 36 2s19's and 18 BM-21's. The 2S1's (up to 90 in total) should be attached to the individual Tank and MR Battalions?

    A division would have the separate artillery regiment plus a battalion for each regiment. A heavy brigade would have a total of 2 battalions (18 per) of SP artillery plus one of MRL (18 per). There is not a lot of equipment standardization any more. A battalion may have 2S1, 2S3, 2S5, 2S19 or even 2A65's. Some of the new regiments formed are even using a mixed battalion of 12 2A65's and 4 BM-21's. Not sure what that says about the generally accepted belief of there being thousands of 2S1 and 2S3's in storage. There seems to be some attempt to ensure the Artillery regiments and brigades utilize the 2S19's. Also some divisions have 3 combat regiments and others have 4.

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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:40 pm

    Yes I've noticed it's a bit of a "pick a mix" situation in certain areas Laughing
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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:46 pm

    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 17 2s4m_k10

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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:18 pm

    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 17 2s4m_k11
    Yandex translation

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:08 am

    And a cab roof mounted machine gun position to defend the vehicle...

    Nice...

    The wheels will make it easier to move long distances by road and also likely make it faster except cross rough country.

    And also make it cheaper to operate, buy, and service... excellent.

    That Yandex translation feature is handy too...
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    Post  hoom Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:59 am

    Oof! Wheeled Tyulpan affraid
    Now thats some mobile firepower
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:09 am

    GarryB wrote:The wheels will make it easier to move long distances by road and also likely make it faster except cross rough country.

    And also make it cheaper to operate, buy, and service... excellent.

    That Yandex translation feature is handy too...

    Much better solution in peacetime, in terms of cost etc. and only a bit less in combat when its very muddy.

    One hell of a weapon, 10" barrel, like an old heavy cruiser Laughing

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:31 pm

    A wheeled chassis is simply a better fit for the motorized units (aka infantry) they support. Gorets, Flox, Drok - these are all based on some for of the Typhoon chassis which makes logistics all the more simpler.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:04 am

    Despite being wheeled, these are not like cargo trucks... the Grad is truck based too and could be driven to some pretty rough locations operationally... and there will be plenty of equipment and vehicles that can tow them out if they get stuck.

    The current ammo they talk about has a range of 18km, so there is a bit of flexibility as to where they could be located and still provide support.
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    Post  Mir Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:37 pm

    Most heavy tracked vehicles are required to be moved by rail over fairly long distances. Even more so in Russia. Having wheeled heavy weapons gives you an alternative method and they can cover quite a long distance rapidly. That gives you not only a tactical advantage in some situations but strategic as well. The South African G-6 artillery piece is a good example. The only downside is that these vehicles tend to be huge, but lower cost and it's strategic mobility gives it a useful advantage.

    Heavy Artillery pieces like the 2S4, the 2S7 and the Smerch or even the Uragan MLRS. Do the Russians deploy them at Army Level or at Divisional Level in the current structure?
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    Post  franco Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:16 pm

    Mir wrote:Most heavy tracked vehicles are required to be moved by rail over fairly long distances. Even more so in Russia. Having wheeled heavy weapons gives you an alternative method and they can cover quite a long distance rapidly. That gives you not only a tactical advantage in some situations but strategic as well. The South African G-6 artillery piece is a good example. The only downside is that these vehicles tend to be huge, but lower cost and it's strategic mobility gives it a useful advantage.

    Heavy Artillery pieces like the 2S4, the 2S7 and the Smerch or even the Uragan MLRS. Do the Russians deploy them at Army Level or at Divisional Level in the current structure?

    Uragan at Army level, Smerch at District level plus there is 1 battalion of 2S4 and 2S7 per district. The Western is in a separate Heavy Artillery brigade, the Southern two bn's are attached to the 58th Army Artillery brigade while the Central and Eastern units are split up and attached to different Army Artillery brigades.

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