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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:29 am

    Nice, so they are not going to give up on towed artillery... makes sense.

    A towed gun is just cheaper and lighter and can be taken into places a self propelled gun can't go.

    New systems to allow it to be aimed and fired with automated information from a C4IR system will make them much more effective...
    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon May 10, 2021 1:33 pm

    In Nizhny Novgorod were showed several new products developed by the Central Research Institute "Burevestnik"

    2B24 "Deva" mortar on an ATV
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Dova10

    Self-propelled mortar 2S41 "Drok"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Self-p11
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Self-p10

    KamAZ-43269 "Shot" with a new module "Spitsa"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Bystre10

    "Typhoon-VDV" Self-propelled mortar 2S40 "Phlox"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 A19
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 B19

    Self-propelled howitzer 2C43 "Malva"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Malva10
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Malva210

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon May 10, 2021 2:03 pm

    Some great stuff here. I wonder if they will do a self loading version of the SP mortar and artillery. I know Serbia have self loading SP 122mm and 152mm, am sure there is scope to have a variant of each in self loading configuration. Obviously a self-loading version is more expensive but with obvious benefits. I suppose having different variants allows for good export options for the customer depending on budget. I wonder if a 122mm artillery version will be made. And I always liked the 82mm automatic mortar glad to see they have now made a decent SP version. Is Malva just a wheeled equivalent of 2S5?
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 11, 2021 2:02 am

    Is Malva just a wheeled equivalent of 2S5?

    It is interesting... the 2S5 was an extra long barrel 152mm gun that had extra range over the 2S3, but this vehicle does not seem to have a longer barrel than the Coalition... so maybe it is a reduced cost model rather than an extended range counter battery model...

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    franco
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    Post  franco Fri May 14, 2021 3:06 am

    Uralvagonzavod supplied the Ministry of Defense with the first batch of modernized ACS "Akatsia"

    MOSCOW, May 13. / TASS /. Uraltransmash (part of the Uralvagonzavod concern of the Rostec state corporation) delivered the first batch of 2S3M Akatsia self-propelled artillery units (ACS) 2S3M Akatsiya to the Russian Ministry of Defense as part of the state defense order. This was reported to TASS on Thursday in the press service of UVZ.

    "The vehicle has improved communication facilities, and also carried out work on complete import substitution. Self-propelled howitzers are fully equipped with transportable spare parts, tools and accessories and handed over to the customer," the press service quoted Dmitry Semizorov, General Director of Uraltransmash, as saying.

    ACS 2S3M2 "Akatsia" of 152 mm caliber is designed to destroy and suppress artillery, tanks, self-propelled guns and other armored equipment, suppress rear services and command and control bodies, and destroy field and long-term defensive structures.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11363945

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    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Sat May 15, 2021 2:00 pm

    Hole wrote:Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 004711
    Modernisation kit for the 2A36 gun

    Would they consider developing a variant that weighs at least half (around 4,000 to 5,000kg) similar to the US M777 so that it will be transportable by Mi-8 or Mi-38?
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat May 15, 2021 3:52 pm

    franco wrote:Uralvagonzavod supplied the Ministry of Defense with the first batch of modernized ACS "Akatsia"

    MOSCOW, May 13. / TASS /. Uraltransmash (part of the Uralvagonzavod concern of the Rostec state corporation) delivered the first batch of 2S3M Akatsia self-propelled artillery units (ACS) 2S3M Akatsiya to the Russian Ministry of Defense as part of the state defense order. This was reported to TASS on Thursday in the press service of UVZ.

    "The vehicle has improved communication facilities, and also carried out work on complete import substitution. Self-propelled howitzers are fully equipped with transportable spare parts, tools and accessories and handed over to the customer," the press service quoted Dmitry Semizorov, General Director of Uraltransmash, as saying.

    ACS 2S3M2 "Akatsia" of 152 mm caliber is designed to destroy and suppress artillery, tanks, self-propelled guns and other armored equipment, suppress rear services and command and control bodies, and destroy field and long-term defensive structures.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11363945

    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 89123210

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    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun May 16, 2021 12:09 am

    PhSt wrote:
    Hole wrote:Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 004711
    Modernisation kit for the 2A36 gun

    Would they consider developing a variant that weighs at least half (around 4,000 to 5,000kg) similar to the US M777 so that it will be transportable by Mi-8 or Mi-38?

    Translation????
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    Post  d_taddei2 Sun May 16, 2021 12:16 am

    George1 wrote:
    franco wrote:Uralvagonzavod supplied the Ministry of Defense with the first batch of modernized ACS "Akatsia"

    MOSCOW, May 13. / TASS /. Uraltransmash (part of the Uralvagonzavod concern of the Rostec state corporation) delivered the first batch of 2S3M Akatsia self-propelled artillery units (ACS) 2S3M Akatsiya to the Russian Ministry of Defense as part of the state defense order. This was reported to TASS on Thursday in the press service of UVZ.

    "The vehicle has improved communication facilities, and also carried out work on complete import substitution. Self-propelled howitzers are fully equipped with transportable spare parts, tools and accessories and handed over to the customer," the press service quoted Dmitry Semizorov, General Director of Uraltransmash, as saying.

    ACS 2S3M2 "Akatsia" of 152 mm caliber is designed to destroy and suppress artillery, tanks, self-propelled guns and other armored equipment, suppress rear services and command and control bodies, and destroy field and long-term defensive structures.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11363945

    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 89123210

    Looks like new lol. Quite surprised in a way that they are still upgrading these. Pretty short range compared to the 2S19 Msta only real benefits is that it's cheaper to upgrade the 2S3 than build a new 2S19, and obviously the weight difference which is pretty big 2S19 around 42 tons and 2S3 at 28 ton, lighter vehicles can have there uses. To note 2S1 also at 16 tons.
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    Post  lancelot Sun May 16, 2021 4:08 am

    I guess this is yet another new service they can provide to former customers of the type.
    But it seems to be yet another vehicle and chassis type to maintain. Why not just put a howitzer on a Kurganets chassis?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun May 16, 2021 11:53 am


    Would they consider developing a variant that weighs at least half (around 4,000 to 5,000kg) similar to the US M777 so that it will be transportable by Mi-8 or Mi-38?

    If you listened to the fanboys here demanding a Russian M777 you would think they didn't have any in service anyway... yet they have developed an upgrade kit for it....

    I guess this is yet another new service they can provide to former customers of the type.
    But it seems to be yet another vehicle and chassis type to maintain. Why not just put a howitzer on a Kurganets chassis?

    It greatly improves the performance and independence of existing vehicle types... in theory they could operate as a team without having to line up side by side to fire, which would make them much harder to target in counter battery fire, plus with rounds coming from different directions timed to arrive at the same time it would probably be rather more effective.

    As far as the target is concerned they wont know if these 152mm shells travelled 18km or 28km or 68km... the effect on target will be similar and quite devastating.

    It is a cheaper way of improving existing capacity and better using existing resources and also offering export customers cheaper simpler system alternatives if they want them.

    Obviously most of the improvements would require most countries spent money on C4IR systems to make them actually useful too.

    I rather suspect the upgrade systems and equipment are based on the new systems used with the newer more powerful vehicles, so essentially this is bringing them up to be more in line with newer platforms. Good for commonality and cheaper training perhaps... they can use older vehicles and systems to better effect and then when they are obsolete they can be withdrawn or sold and the troops transition to newer stuff that would be rather similar to use but with much better range and accuracy I suspect.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:22 pm

    Demonstration of new Russian artillery systems

    June 10th, 22:04

    As the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation reported on June 10, 2021, Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Alexei Krivoruchko visited the Smolino test site in the Nizhny Novgorod region during his working trip, where he checked the progress of the state defense order.

    Alexey Krivoruchko got acquainted with the Ka-52M attack helicopter, which received a new radio-controlled weapon system. He was shown a new self-propelled mortar "Drok" in action.

    In addition, the servicemen at the range demonstrated firing at various ranges from new artillery systems, such as the Magnolia, Malva, Phlox, Lotos self-propelled guns and the Sprut self-propelled anti-tank gun. The gunners fired at stationary and moving targets.

    “The equipment being developed generally meets modern requirements and is expected by the troops in the near future. The presented samples are superior to the existing samples in a number of basic tactical and technical characteristics, "the Deputy Minister of Defense said following the demonstration.

    Oleksiy Krivoruchko also held a meeting with the participation of representatives of the military-industrial complex and the leadership of the military department. It discussed the organization and control of the implementation of research and development work on new models of weapons for the Ground Forces, the Airborne Forces and the Marine Corps.

    152-mm self-propelled howitzer 2S43 "Malva"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Malva11

    120-mm self-propelled gun 2S40 "Phlox"

    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Phlox10

    82-mm self-propelled mortar 2S41 "Drok"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Drok11

    120-mm self-propelled gun "Magnolia" based on a two-link conveyor DT-30MP "Vityaz"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Magnol10

    125-mm self-propelled anti-tank gun 2S25M1 "Sprut-SDM1"
    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread - Page 15 Sprut10

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4328394.html

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    Post  mavaff Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:35 am

    video of Magnolia 120mm firing

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/2021610719-XftrT.html

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    Post  Flanky Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:31 pm

    mavaff wrote:video of Magnolia 120mm firing

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/2021610719-XftrT.html

    Very nice catch!
    Its good to see Russians have finally understood the value of having artillery on wheels.
    But the floks is a surprise... howitzer and mortar all in one?
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:10 pm

    Flanky wrote:
    Very nice catch!
    Its good to see Russians have finally understood the value of having artillery on wheels.
    But the floks is a surprise... howitzer and mortar all in one?
    Wheeled self-propelled as opposed to towed artillery only really took off once all the enablers for responsive counter-battery fire started proliferating, so the last 30 years. Before that towed artillery was perfectly fine, especially since the truck typically carried much more ammo than was possible if the truck were to be mated with the gun itself, which is neat since going on the offensive hundreds of kms from railheads means you are going to need all the trucks you are going to get and then some.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:56 am

    Its good to see Russians have finally understood the value of having artillery on wheels.

    Hahahahaa... the irony of that statement is amusing... I remember complaints or comments regarding how the Soviets are so inferior to HATO because they have so little self propelled artillery... most of it was towed back then... but now they are realising the affordability of wheeled vehicles... yeah right... the west also looked down on the cheap wheeled BTRs till they started introducing their own...

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:09 am

    Soviets had more mobile artillery assets than the whole NATO combined.
    Towed ones were just an addition to that.
    Things are getting funnier each day.
    Now Russia has renewed its whole artillery park and has new models for each level.
    And each military branch ...
    Same time, the best NATO has is a 30 years old PzH2000. It is still a great piece of German military enginery.
    It shots 2/3 the range, half the rate, and about double (some say quadruple) the CEP of 2S35.
    Hurray! Attack! Moscow is ours! cheers
    Laughing

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:17 pm

    Soviets had more mobile artillery assets than the whole NATO combined.

    True but in the late 1970s the 2S1 and 2S3 were brand new and they (HATO) knew very little about other models which were relatively new at the time anyway.

    Certainly they have changed the situation for the better... and they always had a massive superiority in rocket artillery...
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:41 pm

    RAND made an evaluation about Russia vs. NATO mobilization capabilities.
    It was a great read when they compared artillery.
    They made a table with systems and ratios.
    For artillery, the ratio was 6:1 if I remember correctly.
    But for rocket artillery, it was 1: infinity Laughing
    The other is obviously not true, showing the quality of western "anal-ysis", because rocket artillery exists in all ex-WarPac NATO members, to begin with.
    Still, funny.

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    Post  lyle6 Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:11 pm

    It was because the M270 rocket artillery system made use of palletized rounds and comes with its own integrated winch that it could reload itself without outside assistance and quickly. These morons unironically think faster reload equals superior rocket artillery. Like are you fucking for real? N*gger the only thing a rocket arty ought to do after firing is to unlimber, back out of whatever firing position they are in, and just drive like madmen as far away as possible. Once you do that you are free to reload as slow as you want.
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    Post  Cheetah Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:51 am

    mavaff wrote:video of Magnolia 120mm firing

    Is anyone else concerned by how much the barrel seems to sway on that mount?
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:57 am

    Yes, all through the 1980s I had to read British military magazines telling be a polish or czech copy of the grad was superior because it had a spare reload of rockets on the back so it could fire and then reload in 5 minutes and then fire again... ignoring the fact that after it fired the first time it needs to move immediately because there is no hiding a launch from anyone and even if it only takes 5 minutes to reload what are you going to fire at?

    Your original target should have been hit already and what other targets will there be for you?

    It makes more sense to fire and move and while you are moving to a new launch location you can gather information about how effective your last strike was... does it need to be hit again or can you move on to other targets.

    By the time you get to where you are going getting the launchers into position and loading them with new ammo ready to fire and having your loading trucks moving away while you finalise direction and orientation of the launchers for the next attack awaiting for the order to fire and then move again.

    Having extra rockets on the vehicle that are not also ready to fire just adds weight and could make you linger too long at a launch site and end up getting you killed.

    Regarding the MLRS, to be clear it was a chassis unique to the US Army... it was the tracked chassis of a Bradley BMP that was no used by any of Americas HATO partners so when they bought them they bought a new chassis and new track type and new wheel type that they didn't already have in service.

    It was expensive for what it was but was not more accurate nor more powerful than its Soviet equivalent, the 220mm Uragan which had better range, was mounted on a truck that was standard throughout the Warsaw Pact and the vehicle carried 16 rockets instead of 12 with better range than the MLRS.

    The Grad carried a lot more rockets that in later models had similar range to the MLRS that was much cheaper and more mobile and versatile and of course the Smerch which blew the MLRS away in all parameters.

    Regarding guided rockets the Tochka-U and Iskander were superior in every way too.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:05 pm



    This is a test to see if Zvezda news videos will play...

    Is anyone else concerned by how much the barrel seems to sway on that mount?

    It is a very long unsupported barrel, I would be surprised if it didn't wobble a bit.

    The standard shells have guidance kits built in so it should not effect accuracy.

    Was more interested at about 2 minutes and 12 seconds into the video where the Sprut fired sideways while driving... it kicked the vehicle sideways 20-30cm or so... quite impressive...

    Interesting, you don't get a proper look but it seems that there is a crew position on each side of the gun an the guy on the left side loads the brass propellent case and the guy on the right hand side loads the projectile... the propellent case extracted from a bin on the right hand side and handed across to the guy on the left while the guy on the right lowers a projectile which is then flipped into the breach and rammed up into the chamber, which is understandable as the projectiles are 40kgs-50kgs, while the propellent charges should be rather lighter and easier to man handle.
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:26 pm

    The main reason why a launcher carries a reload is financial&logistic. You don't need two lorries to shoot and reload. Everyone who is doing that has a cost-saving in mind. But as it does not sounds particularly good, well, they need a story sometimes Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:35 pm

    Having a small amount of ready to fire ammo makes sense because this thing should shoot and then scoot and not hang around for long periods because it is very vulnerable to counter battery fire.

    But in situations where the risk of counter battery fire is low an ammo vehicle could park nearby and assist with the reloading.

    At some stage the small amount of onboard ammo will need to be topped up so some sort of reload vehicle must exist... but I suspect it keeps its distance most of the time to avoid drawing attention to itself.

    They have mentioned new types of reloading vehicles for tanks and BMPs that can drive up and feed fresh ammo into the vehicle automatically... presumably designed for use with their new vehicle families with unmanned turrets but perhaps could be used on older models too.

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