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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:55 am

    Sweeden has something like that. I don't remember the name but you can found it easily.

    Because the RPK-8 anti submarine weapon is not cheap and only has a range of about 4.3km... at that range a burst of 30mm cannon shells would probably be more effective.

    Any medium gun would be vastly more accurate and more effective too.

    Well it's cheaper than replacing a radar because the enemy fired an guided rocket on it. However I agree with what you say, it's better to use canon.

    Their main role was to intercept torpedos and the Pk was like 0.8 against one torpedo with a 1 salvo. Their range is very small to attack subs.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:09 pm

    http://rusnavy.com/science/weapons/underseaweapon/index.php?print=Y

    Any improvment in torpedos since this article ?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:24 am

    Well it's cheaper than replacing a radar because the enemy fired an guided rocket on it. However I agree with what you say, it's better to use canon.

    Not really because to hit a point target like even a medium sized ship you would need to launch volleys of rockets only a few of which will actually land on the target.

    The whole point of the system is to scatter rounds around a point of aim to increase a chance of a hit.

    For the anti sub round with the sonar seeker precision is not important as while it dives it homes in on the target so it can miss by hundreds of metres and then swim towards it target is it descends in the water to get a hit.

    In terms of killing divers a volley of rockets each detonating at different depths in a scattered pattern makes a kill almost certain even against a group of divers... humans are horribly vulnerable to underwater explosions... the shockwaves move rapidly through water but air pockets collapse... think about what that means for a diver in the water when an explosive goes off nearby... a humans lungs are two large air pockets inside the body...

    In terms of an incoming enemy torpedo the system needs to drop a spread cluster of mines so that the torpedo will pass by a few to ensure their proximity explosion defeats the torpedo in question.

    The RBU and other similar Rocket depth charge launchers evolved in Soviet and Russian service over time to make them more flexible and useful and effective.

    In most western countries they remained cheap and very simple and to be honest not hugely useful most of the time.

    The Soviets developed them to the point where they were useful for a range of uses other than just attacking submerged vessels (ie anti frogman etc) but also rather capable at the job.

    Old story of the west replacing simple systems with more sophisticated systems (ie small calibre torpedoes) while the Russians/Soviets expanding the capabilities of systems to make them multipurpose.

    Any improvment in torpedos since this article ?

    I believe if you read through the earlier posts in this thread there were reports about brand new Torpedoes entering service this year and next that are state of the art...
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    Post  nastle77 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:56 pm

    Thanks for the explanation GarryB first time I really understood RBU
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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 Empty RPK-2( SS-n-15) and RPK-6 and RPK-7(ssn-16)

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:10 pm

    were these torpedoes missiles operational on the Yankee and Delta class submarines ?

    Assuming they were for self-protection as both SSN-15 and SSN-16 were ASW missiles , to protect the SSBN from SSN

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:59 am

    The SS-N-15 and SS-N-16 were for ASW use both in defence and in attack.

    In many ways they were super fast torpedoes that delivered torpedoes into the vicinity of enemy Subs at supersonic speed (mach 2.5) but without the noise of underwater travel to warn the target.

    The first the target knows of the attack is the torpedo dropping into the water nearby and starting actively seeking the sub...
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    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:33 am



    In many ways they were super fast torpedoes that delivered torpedoes into the vicinity of enemy Subs at supersonic speed (mach 2.5) but without the noise of underwater travel to warn the target.

    Do you know how much noise the lunch makes ? The booster is pretty noisy so a enemy sub could detect it a very long distances. It woun't be able to track it but it will know it has been lunch and it will know the position of the sub.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:41 am

    Do you know how much noise the lunch makes ? The booster is pretty noisy so a enemy sub could detect it a very long distances. It woun't be able to track it but it will know it has been lunch and it will know the position of the sub.

    The launch of any weapon makes noise... not sure you will care about a launch 40km away... they can be launched by ships as well too...

    Most of them move through the water like a torpedo and it surfaces and then the booster rocket motor fires to drag them out of the water... the launch noise would not be that much different from a sub launched Harpoon or Calibr.

    BTW I remember seeing a missile being fired from a surface ship... the torpedo tubes are turned to the side and the missile leaves the torpedo tube on the ship and splashes into the water... then a few metres further away from the ship the rocket motor fires and the missile leaves the water on a ballistic path to the target.

    they could have adapted it for the ship... there is also the Medvedka, but by using the torpedo based system they can launch torpedos at long range targets rapidly and without modification needed.
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    Post  nastle77 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:11 pm

    Was the SSN 16 a dual role weapon ? ASW and ASUW
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:19 am

    I guess it is possible, but the ballistic path on the way to the target area would make it rather vulnerable to interception by SAM... SS-N-16 is a 65cm weapon... I would say a 100km shot with a 50 Knot torpedo would be more likely than a 30-40km shot with a much smaller torpedo with a much smaller HE payload...
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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:30 am

    GarryB wrote:I guess it is possible, but the ballistic path on the way to the target area would make it rather vulnerable to interception by SAM... SS-N-16 is a 65cm weapon... I would say a 100km shot with a 50 Knot torpedo would be more likely than a 30-40km shot with a much smaller torpedo with a much smaller HE payload...
    Makes sense , You are referring to type 65 76 torpedoes which were high speed wake homing and long range >50 km?
    Could they be carried by any sub with 65 cm tubes?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:18 pm

    Could they be carried by any sub with 65 cm tubes?

    I would expect that would be the purpose of fitting 65cm tubes on a sub... to allow the use of such torpedoes and weapons...

    Obviously you need a bigger sub to carry such tubes/weapons, but then the role of larger vessel would be to operate further from shore where enemy subs and carrier groups are more likely to be encountered...
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    Post  franco on Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:39 am

    Are these items improved RPU's or chaff / flare devices?

    https://ria.ru/arms/20170102/1485082489.html
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:59 am

    Удав-1М is also known in the west as RBU-12000:

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/udav_1m/udav_1m.shtml

    While "Запад" — ракетный is known as РПК-8 «Запад»

    http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?topic=7685.0

    Not exactly new systems... note the RPK-8 is the whole system designation that uses sonar and the RBU-6000 launcher and control systems...
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:26 am

    What is the luncher on the carrier they sold to India ? In one vdeo they show it working. It's a small luncher with 2 tubes. At first I thought it was decoys but in the video it uses ammunitions which seems to be big bullets.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:19 am

    If it looked like this it's DP-64 anti-diver grenade launcher

    Edit: Probably this
    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 ZiF-121-Barrel-PK-2-Counter-Measure-System-INS-Vikramaditya-R%25255B3%25255D
    Which is apparently a ZiF-121 decoy launcher http://www.aame.in/2013/07/ins-vikramaditya-testing-its-zif-121.html
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    Post  Guest on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:37 am

    hoom wrote:If it looked like this it's DP-64 anti-diver grenade launcher

    Edit: Probably this
    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 ZiF-121-Barrel-PK-2-Counter-Measure-System-INS-Vikramaditya-R%25255B3%25255D
    Which is apparently a ZiF-121 decoy launcher http://www.aame.in/2013/07/ins-vikramaditya-testing-its-zif-121.html

    ПК-2 Decoy launcher
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    Post  nastle77 on Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:06 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Could they be carried by any sub with 65 cm tubes?

    I would expect that would be the purpose of fitting 65cm tubes on a sub... to allow the use of such torpedoes and weapons...

    Obviously you need a bigger sub to carry such tubes/weapons, but then the role of larger vessel would be to operate further from shore where enemy subs and carrier groups are more likely to be encountered...
    Right so the standard ASUW torpedo of soviet subs during the cold war was the type 53 65 ?
    It was wake homing? And it's effective range was 10 miles?
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    Post  Benya on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:25 am

    Russia developing Khishchnik high-speed torpedo to replace VA-111 Shkval supercavitating torpedo

    The Elektropribor Design Bureau in Saratov is developing a high-speed torpedo dubbed Khishchnik (Russian for ‘raptor’) and designed to replace the Shkval, expert Vladimir Tuchkov writes in an article with the Svobodnaya Pressa online news agency. The blog of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) has reported that Elektropribor is soon to complete the development of a sophisticated high-speed torpedo. The weapon is designed for replacing the famous Shkval capable of accelerating to 200 knots under water. CAST learnt about that when Elektropribor applied for participating in the 2015 Aircraft Maker of the Year Competition held by the Union of Aviation Industrialists of Russia (UAIR).

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 Torpedo_Shkval_russia
    Artist Impression: A Shkval torpedo is launched from a submarine

    Two applications have been submitted, with one of them dedicated to "the execution of the state defense order for developing components of advanced underwater vehicles." The application continues: "Since 2013, the company has been developing and manufacturing prototypes and testing a component of the underwater missile embodying advanced boundary layer control principles."

    The weapon in question is the Khishchnik, of which very little is known due to the program being very hush-hush.

    The torpedo is under development by the company developing components for military planes, and the weapon has been submitted for the competition to be held by UAIR. The thing is, the type of weapons is called rocket-assisted torpedo, and Elektropribor is developing electrical units for its rocket motor and the control systems.

    The NII-24 Research Institute (now the Region State Research and Production Company, a subsidiary of Tactical Missiles Corp.) kicked off Shkval’s development in 1960. The requirements specification called for a torpedo with a cruising speed of 200 knots and a range of 20 km for launch via the standard 533-mm torpedo tube.

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 Torpedo_Shkval_head
    Shkval nose cone

    The first prototype was made as soon as 1964. The same year, it launched its tests at Lake Issyk-Kul followed by tests in the Black Sea near the city of Feodosiya. The tests failed. The designers developed one model after another that kept on failing to meet the stringent requirements specification. It is the sixth prototype that passed the tests and was cleared for full-rate production. The torpedo entered the Soviet Navy’s inventory in 1977.

    Its high speed resulted from cavitation. Research into this field was started by a TsAGI affiliate in the Soviet Union in the late ‘40s. In the late ‘50s, the scientists came up with a harmonious theory of cavitation movement and issued recommendations for applying its principles to high-speed underwater vehicle development. Cavitation boils down to an object (a torpedo in this case) moving inside an air bubble, overcoming the drag caused by the air, rather than by water. A combined-cycle gas turbine unit in the nose section creates the air bubble enveloping the torpedo.

    The weapon is propelled by a jet from its solid-propellant rocket motor, rather than by a screw or a waterjet. The Shkval’s power plant is two-stage. First, the solid-propellant motor accelerates the torpedo to the cavitation speed. Then, the sustainer - an underwater ramjet - kicks in.

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 Torpedo_Shkval_rear
    Shkval rear, showing the guidance fins and the electronics connector

    The development of the underwater ramjet proved to be as difficult as that of the cavitation generator. It is radically different to the ones used in planes and rockets. It uses seawater as actuating medium and oxidizer, while hydroreactive metals are its fuel.

    The speed requirement was met, but the range proved to be a mere 13 km. The torpedo’s launch depth was 30 m, and the weapon dashed to its target at 6 m below the surface. Initially, its warhead was nuclear and had a yield of 150 kilotons. The torpedo weighed 2,700 kg and measured 8,200 mm long.

    While having a huge speed, the torpedo lacked a seeker. There were two reasons for that. First, maneuvering worth mentioning is impossible at such a speed, because the air bubble will disintegrate. Second, the torpedo is very noisy and it vibrates, which will make the seeker hear nothing but the motor.

    Naturally, the heading of the enemy ship subject to sinking as well as its speed and other factors is taken into consideration prior to the Shkval’s launch, i.e. a lead is allowed for, but it is short, because the Shkval covers 13 km inside 130 s - a bit more than 2 min. The torpedo’s baseline model carried a 150-kt nuclear warhead. It was replaced with a high-explosive one weighing about 250 kg, when the time came to slash the nuclear stockpiles. However, the launch of the torpedo exposed the submarine, for the Shkval’s wake gave its position away lock, stock and barrel. The torpedo’s short range was fraught with another problem: to attack an aircraft carrier or other major combatant, the submarine had to enter its antisubmarine coverage area, which reduced its own chances for survival. In other words, although the designers produced high technical characteristics, the weapon proved to be of little use in practical terms. The Shkval was removed from the inventory.

    Designers in two more countries echoed the ideas embodied in the Shkval. In 2005, Germany announced the development of the Barracuda supercavitating torpedo with a speed of 400 km/h, and, two years ago, the Iranian chief of naval operations mentioned a torpedo travelling at 320 km/h. However, these are not weapons ready for combat, rather prototypes undergoing the trials.

    The Khishchnik is not a version of the Shkval. Serious money has been set aside for its development. The two contractors alone - Elektropribor and the SEPO-ZEM plant in Saratov - co-pursuing the Khishchnik-M program have received more than 1.5 billion rubles ($25 million).

    Therefore, it is possible that the torpedo will have a seeker and be able to maneuver and its range and stealth will increase, expert Vladimir Tuchkov writes in the article on the Svobodnaya Pressa news website.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/january-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4791-russia-developing-khishchnik-high-speed-torpedo-to-replace-va-111-shkval-supercavitating-torpedo.html
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    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:47 am

    Completed field tests of the modernized naval artillery installation AK-176MA

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 3963483_original

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2467332.html
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    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:07 pm

    Russian Navy to Receive New Deep-Water Torpedo in 2018

    The new Russian torpedo will reportedly be able to reach speed more than 60 knots and hit targets at a range of over 35 miles.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The tests of Russia's advanced deep-water homing torpedo named Futlyar (Fizik-2) will wrap up this year and the Russian Navy will introduce it into service in 2018, a defense industry source told Sputnik on Friday.

    "The tests of the newest Futlyar torpedo — an improved Fizik — are being carried out successfully. They are planned to be completed by the end of 2017. The Russian Navy will put it into service in 2018," the source said.


    The source added that Futlyar torpedoes had improved systems of homing, remote control and its effective distance had also been increased if to compare with Fizik torpedoes.

    According to the publicly available sources, Futlyar would be capable to reach speed more than 60 knots and depth of more than 540 yards and would be able to hit targets at a range of over 35 miles.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051435733-russian-navy-futlyar-fozok-torpedo/
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:32 pm

    OK so it is about a navy weapon so I understand knots... but WTF are they talking about yards and miles for... this is the 21st C not the fkin dark ages...

    According to the publicly available sources, Futlyar would be capable to reach speed more than 60 knots and depth of more than 540 yards and would be able to hit targets at a range of over 35 miles.

    Why don't they tell us how many Arshins in 540 yards...
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    Post  Benya on Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:12 am

    Arsenal Machine Building Plant to deliver 22 AK-176MA Naval Gun Systems to Russian Navy

    A total of 22 upgraded AK-176MA guns designed for the advanced Project 22160 patrol ship and Project 22800 corvette will be delivered to Russia’s Navy before 2020, the press office of Russia’s Arsenal Machine-Building Plant said.

    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology - Page 9 AK-176MA_Naval_Gun_System_Russia
    The AK-176MA naval gun system prototype. Picture by JSC "Arsenal Machine-Building Plant". (via flotprom.ru)

    "Before 2020, the Arsenal Machine-Engineering Plant is expected to deliver 22 upgraded AK-176MA Mod. 01 guns to the Navy," the press office said.

    "The first upgraded gun has been dispatched to the Zelenodolsk Shipyard [in the Volga area] to be mounted on the Project 22160 lead ship Vasil Bykov,"
    the press office added.

    The plant developed the upgraded version of the gun on its own initiative. The upgraded gun has completed field tests.

    "All requirements indicated by the Navy in the tactical specifications have been met. The AK-176MA gun’s laying accuracy and grouping of shots have more than doubled, the laying speed has been increased considerably and the weight has been decreased to less than nine tons," the press office said.

    The advanced AK-176MA gun is designed for littoral ships and is expected to be mounted on the Project 22160, 22800, 12418 and 23550 vessels.

    It can be also used to replace obsolete artillery systems of ships built earlier.

    "Russia’s Navy has received the advanced 76.2mm shipborne gun comparable with foreign-made analogs and superior to them by some characteristics," the press office added.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/march-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5002-arsenal-machine-building-plant-to-deliver-22-ak-176ma-naval-gun-systems-to-russian-navy.html



    It can be also used to replace obsolete artillery systems of ships built earlier.

    Well, AFAIK there are a multitude of Russian Navy ships currently in service that are using AK-176/AK-176M guns (most corvettes and some Ropucha-class landing ships), but I think that rearming them with this new AK-176MA would be only practical if they would be kept in service for at least 10-15 years, but that is highly unlikely.

    New guns/weapon systems should only be equipped on newer ships in my opinion.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:50 am


    ...
    The advanced AK-176MA gun is designed for littoral ships and is expected to be mounted on the Project 22160, 22800, 12418 and 23550 vessels. ...

    OK so we have:

    2x 12418 (those 2 with Uran missiles they are finishing)

    2x 23550

    6x 22160

    That leaves 12 for 22800 so we can hope to see 12 Karakurts laid down until 2020. Just my guesstimate...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:28 am

    The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

    At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

    It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too.

    They have developed guided 57mm shells so guided 76.2mm shells should be fairly easy to make too. that would allow greater engagement ranges against point targets like Anti ship missiles and other threats.

    If some ragheads try to use a boat laden with explosives to attack a Russian ship there is nothing like a 76.2mm shell smacking them with twice the mass of a 57mm shell. (76.2mm shells have 6kg projectiles, while the 57mm rounds are 2.8kg projectiles...)

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