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    PLA Air Force General News Thread:

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    walle83


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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  walle83 Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:38 am

    https://eurasiantimes.com/saab-gripen-rips-apart-chinese-j-11-fighters-in-war-games-experts-call-them-sitting-ducks-for-rafales/?amp

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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  walle83 Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:03 pm

    J-11s and a J-10 flying in formation.

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J10j1110
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J10j1111
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J10j1112
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    Post  medo Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:34 pm

    J-16 and J-10.

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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:59 am

    That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  Isos Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:45 am

    Such exercices show nothing. They don't fight at 100% and don't show the real data about their missiles.

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    zepia
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  zepia Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:31 am

    GarryB wrote:That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.

    This article from The Diplomat gave us a lot more comprehensive view on the drill.
    https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/flankers-vs-gripens-what-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

    To me, BVR engagement result was not unexpected. J-11 is a plain classic Flanker, and AFAIK Chinese didn't update them at all.
    While Gripen C is a decade or two newer platform and design around concept of "situation awareness" and "network warfare" eg. integrated data link.
    Plus the different in size, J-11 is a big big target in radar while Gripen is quite a smaller plane and incorporate some low observability design.

    Actually the main reason RTAF broke their loyalty on US of A manufacturer was to obtain the key into these modern warfare concepts.
    Saab was offered 12 birds, 2 Erieyes (+1 bare 340 plane) and an agreement to help RTAF develop their own tactical data link (called "Link-TH"). Which suit their needs very well.
    Compare to US meh offer, a dozen of plain F-16 Block 52.

    What catch my interest is the Gripen is no match for Flanker in WVR engagement.
    I don't know if the engagement emphasis on platforms or weapons. AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Later years drill are more interest since Chinese participated with more advance domestic planes.
    But I wonder if we will ever learn about the result.
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    walle83


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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  walle83 Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:28 pm

    zepia wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.

    This article from The Diplomat gave us a lot more comprehensive view on the drill.
    https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/flankers-vs-gripens-what-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

    To me, BVR engagement result was not unexpected. J-11 is a plain classic Flanker, and AFAIK Chinese didn't update them at all.
    While Gripen C is a decade or two newer platform and design around concept of "situation awareness" and "network warfare" eg. integrated data link.
    Plus the different in size, J-11 is a big big target in radar while Gripen is quite a smaller plane and incorporate some low observability design.

    Actually the main reason RTAF broke their loyalty on US of A manufacturer was to obtain the key into these modern warfare concepts.
    Saab was offered 12 birds, 2 Erieyes (+1 bare 340 plane) and an agreement to help RTAF develop their own tactical data link (called "Link-TH"). Which suit their needs very well.
    Compare to US meh offer, a dozen of plain F-16 Block 52.

    What catch my interest is the Gripen is no match for Flanker in WVR engagement.
    I don't know if the engagement emphasis on platforms or weapons. AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Later years drill are more interest since Chinese participated with more advance domestic planes.
    But I wonder if we will ever learn about the result.

    Does the Thai Gripens have meteor missiles? Would explain alot.
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  zepia Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:44 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    zepia wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.

    This article from The Diplomat gave us a lot more comprehensive view on the drill.
    https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/flankers-vs-gripens-what-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

    To me, BVR engagement result was not unexpected. J-11 is a plain classic Flanker, and AFAIK Chinese didn't update them at all.
    While Gripen C is a decade or two newer platform and design around concept of "situation awareness" and "network warfare" eg. integrated data link.
    Plus the different in size, J-11 is a big big target in radar while Gripen is quite a smaller plane and incorporate some low observability design.

    Actually the main reason RTAF broke their loyalty on US of A manufacturer was to obtain the key into these modern warfare concepts.
    Saab was offered 12 birds, 2 Erieyes (+1 bare 340 plane) and an agreement to help RTAF develop their own tactical data link (called "Link-TH"). Which suit their needs very well.
    Compare to US meh offer, a dozen of plain F-16 Block 52.

    What catch my interest is the Gripen is no match for Flanker in WVR engagement.
    I don't know if the engagement emphasis on platforms or weapons. AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Later years drill are more interest since Chinese participated with more advance domestic planes.
    But I wonder if we will ever learn about the result.

    Does the Thai Gripens have meteor missiles? Would explain alot.

    No, the only medium range in inventory is AMRAAM.
    I heard they're eyeing the Meteor but nothing official yet.
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:15 am

    AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Lima and Mike model Sidewinders are ancient and totally inferior to even base model export R-73s.

    The L and M model sidewinders are from the early 1980s and have no high off boresight capability, have trouble tracking targets manvouering hard, and are suckers for Soviet and Russian flares... at the time they were good because R-73 production was slow initially and limited to Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces, but once it hit the export market... well...

    It was the reason the down graded export model MiG29s the East Germans had beat any and all opposition during the 1990s testing.

    The best performing western aircraft of the time was the F-16 and it got onto the tail of the MiG-29 62% of the time, so if they both had the same Sidewinder load out the F-16 would have won 62% of the time... which would be a terrible defeat for HATO because they expected to win in close combat with few losses because the Soviets still had thousands of single engined fighters and they couldn't afford anything close to parity in results of dogfights.

    The R-73, with its thrust vectoring motor and high offboresight seeker that was controlled by a helmet mounted sight or radar or IRST didn't require the aircraft to get behind the target for an assured kill and the MiG-29 won every engagement because by the time the F-16 got on its tail it was already judged to have been killed.

    Replacing the Sidewinders with X Ray Models (ie AIM-9X) was not a solution because despite having a better seeker and wide angle detection and tracking performance and the ability to track 9g targets all the enemy pilot has to do is launch their missile before your missile kills his plane and it is one all... which, considering the numbers of aircraft they are reducing down to as the new ones get more and more expensive is not acceptable either so after a short panic they poured funds and hope into AMRAAM which was not well funded before that because they thought Soviet pilots were drones and their missiles were shit and they could kill them like a combine harvester collects corn in a cornfield.

    Tactics shifted to BVR range combat using advantages in AWACS and JSTARS and of course high flying supersonic stealth fighters launching missiles at even greater ranges...

    BVR engagements are mostly successful when the target does not know they are under attack. A third world country enemy in a MiG-21 or Su-17 is one thing, but a country with electronics and systems almost as good as yours or better is a real challenge to a force that neglects ground based air defence and focuses on air power...
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  George1 Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:14 pm

    Flights of the Chinese UAV TW328 / TB-001 in the East China Sea and the Pacific Ocean

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 55779610
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 55781410
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 91557310

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4383817.html

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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty China flies TEN aircraft including fighter jets into Taiwan's airspace ramping up tensions just a day after AUKUS pact was signed

    Post  Finty Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:11 pm

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10001967/amp/China-flies-TEN-aircraft-including-fighter-jets-Taiwans-airspace.html

    China has flown ten aircraft including fighter jets into Taiwan's air space just a day after the UK, US and Australia signed a defence pact to push back against Beijing.

    Taipei said two J-11 fighters, six J-16 fighters, one Y-8 anti-submarine plane and one Y-8 spy aircraft entered its air defence identification zone near Pratas Island today.

    Fighter jets were scrambled to turn the aircraft back while radio warnings were also broadcast and missile defence systems activated to monitor the situation.

    Taiwan scrambled fighter jets and activated its missile defences today to drive away what it said were ten Chinese aircraft that encroached into its airspace
    Details of the flights published by Taiwan's defence ministry show the Chinese fighters briefly skirted into the defence zone before turning back.

    But the spy plane and anti-submarine aircraft made a longer route, flying several miles along Taiwan's south coast before turning around and heading away.

    The island's government has complained for a year of repeated missions by China's air force near its borders, often in the southwestern part of its air defense zone close to Taiwan-controlled Pratas Island.

    Self-governing Taiwan, which is home to the Republic of China which fought against the Communist Party when it first emerged, views itself as an independent state but Beijing views it as a breakaway province.

    It has long-standing ties with the US, which historically recognised it as the legitimate government of China.

    Tensions around the island have been mounting since President Xi Jinping vowed in 2019 to 'reunify' Taiwan with the Chinese mainland, using force if necessary.

    Among the aircraft Taiwan said it intercepted were six J-16 fighters (pictured, file image) and two J-11 fighter jets which were quickly turned away

    A Y-8 anti-submarine plane and a Y-8 spy aircraft (pictured, file image) also entered Taiwan's airspace and flew a longer route before turning back

    The standoff entered a new phase on Thursday when Australia, the UK and US announced a new defence pact to share military technology that will include giving Australia its first fleet of nuclear submarines.

    Beijing reacted angrily to the deal, denouncing the allies' 'Cold War mentality' while warning it risks stability in the region and could make Australia the target of a nuclear strike.

    Shortly after the alliance was announced, Australian defence minister Peter Dutton admitted that war with China is possible - with Taiwan likely to be the flashpoint.

    The deal is about securing 'peace' in the region, Mr Dutton insisted, but added that the odds of a conflict with China 'shouldn't be discounted'.

    Australia admits war with China IS possible over Taiwan amid warnings that Beijing could use nukes and fears that Britain could now be dragged into the conflict after signing AUKUS submarine pact

    North Korea is expanding its plutonium-producing nuclear reactor and could increase stocks of weapons-grade uranium by 25 per cent, satellite images reveal
    'The Chinese.. are very clear of their intent with regard to Taiwan [and] the United States has been very clear of their intention toward Taiwan,' he said.

    'Nobody wants to see conflict but that really is a question for the Chinese.'

    The incident came a day after Taiwan proposed extra defence spending of $9billion over the next five years, including on new missiles, warning of an urgent need to upgrade weapons in the face of a 'severe threat' from China.

    Peter Dutton, Australia's defence minister, warned that war with China is possible after signing joint defence deal with the UK and America
    Speaking earlier on Friday, Taiwan Premier Su Tseng-chang said the government had to take the threat from China seriously.

    'The Chinese Communists plot against us constantly,' he said.

    Taiwan's defence spending 'is based on safeguarding national sovereignty, national security, and national security. We must not relax. We must have the best preparations so that no war will occur', he added.

    China's government, for its part, criticised Taiwan Foreign Minister Joseph Wu on Friday for comments this week in which he said Taiwan was a 'sea fortress' blocking China's expansion into the Pacific.
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  George1 Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:05 am

    Chinese electronic warfare aircraft J-16D

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4400772.html
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty China’s ‘Sniping’ J-20 Jets, A.I. Enabled AWACS — Beijing ‘Unveils’ Its Plan To Puncture US Muscle Power

    Post  Finty Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:13 am

    https://eurasiantimes.com/chinas-sniping-j-20-jets-a-i-enabled-awacs-beijings-unveils-its-plan-to-puncture-us-muscle-power/?amp

    As the world struggles to decode the ‘China enigma’, speculating how Beijing will fight its next war, views expressed by its defense specialists provide a glimpse into how it could look at the battleground against the US.

    F/A-18 Super Hornets Finally On Cusp Of Beating F-35 Stealth Fighter Jets For Lucrative RCAF Contract?
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    China seems to have evolved from its “informationized war” concept to “intelligentized war”, where the primacy of possessing information and an “enhanced situational awareness” can decide the outcome of a battle.

    Speaking at a seminar, Lu Jun, Chief Designer of China’s KJ-2000 early warning aircraft, and Cui Jixian, the Deputy Executive Designer of the KJ-500 early warning aircraft, talked about future airborne warning roles to be distributed between various small and big aircraft and assets.

    “A future Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) will likely not be one single early warning aircraft, but a cluster of platforms that can accomplish different missions and build an information network,” he said.

    The KJ-2000 is based on the Russian 190 ton-class Il-76 large transport aircraft, and the KJ-500 is derived from China’s indigenous 60 ton-class Y-8 medium transport aircraft.

    Russia Activates S-400, Pantsir-S Anti-Aircraft Missiles To Ward-Off Rafales, Typhoons, F-35s During Zapad 2021 War Games
    Eyeing Joint Combat Capability
    While individual assets like aircraft, submarines, or tanks can deal with their counterparts in war, the key is to integrate all space, aerial, ground, surface, and underwater systems for “joint combat capability.”


    KJ-2000 AWACS
    The KJ-2000 AWACS aircraft.


    “Future AWACS will definitely become an information network system that includes not only one single aircraft, but a cluster of platforms that can either operate together or alone.

    These platforms will play their specially designed roles based on the demands of combat missions, with the final goal being winning the war”, Cui said, noting that both large and small AWCAS platforms are future trends.

    A manifestation of this primacy of information sharing is in China’s pride and joy, the J-20 ‘Mighty Dragon’, as its designer Yang Wei calls the concept of maneuverability as “outdated”.

    India Pitches Its HAL Tejas Fighter Jets To Australia; Pins Hope On Malaysia For The 1st Elusive Contract
    The J-20 stealth aircraft has been rightfully criticized for lagging in kinematic performance of speed, nimbleness, and payload, but that is never what the jet was designed for and purported to fight in the first place.

    J-20 Could Be A Game-Changer
    The EurAsian Times had reported how the J-20, combining its stealth, radar-reflecting Luneburg Lens (on the rear underside), advanced avionics, Electronic Warfare (EW) and jamming suites and ultra-long-range air-to-air missiles like the PL-15 (range 300 km), will slip past fighter screens and knock out enemy air assets, in a classic ‘hit-and-run’ role.

    These will be transport, Airborne Early Warning (AEW), and air-to-air refueling planes that degrade an air force’s logistical and surveillance capability. This is also adopted in China’s plans to keep the US Navy at bay in the Western Pacific.

    By using YJ-18, YJ-12 supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles (range 540 km), the PL-15 that outrange the US’ subsonic 240-km range Harpoons and the 161-km AIM 190D and the DF-21D Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile (ASBM), China aims to keep the Americans at bay, never allowing them to get close to the mainland.

    In a paper in the Chinese military aviation journal Acta Aeronautica Sinica last July, the J-20’s Chief Designer Yang Wei gave the most extensive insight into the present Chinese military doctrine that puts situational and all-domain awareness and information processing ahead of the performance of individual combat systems.

    PLA Air Force J-20 fighter jets patrol in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone. (via Twitter)
    “Information has now become the deciding factor, as modern fighter jets focus on gaining more information with the help of AESA radars and data chains, while also reducing opponents’ ability to gain information, including using stealth technology and electronic countermeasures.

    When aircraft can get more information with these advanced devices, pilots must have extensive knowledge, sharp analysis and sound decision-making to put them to use,” Wei says.

    After Airbus Deal, India’s ‘Next Lockheed Martin’ Eyes Multi-Billion Fighter Jet Contract From The Air Force
    Here, artificial intelligence will help pilots process the information, and help them become mission objective-oriented by leveling up the observe-orient-decide-act (OODA) loop to OODA 3.0.

    Here too, it is the range, combat endurance, powerful stealth and heavy payload of air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles and the ability to provide the pilot with “easy-to-understand” battlefield situation images drawing and transmitting to and from all friendly assets in an “integrated network” are vital, according to Yang.

    A US Department of Defense (DoD) September 2020 study acknowledges the People’s Liberation Army’s (PLA) belief in the side that has “intelligentized capabilities” for “rapid and efficient decision making” to be able to win a war.

    “To quickly observe, orient, decide, and act in an increasingly dynamic operating environment…China is pursuing AI to support future capabilities, such as autonomous command and control (C2) systems, sophisticated and predictive operational planning, and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) fusion.

    “In addition, the PLA is developing…future command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR) systems will seek to use AI to collect, fuse, and transmit big data for more effective battlespace management and to generate optimal courses of action,” the DoD report said.

    Parth Satam is a Mumbai-based journalist who has been covering India’s defense sector for more than a decade. He maintains a keen interest in defense, aerospace and foreign affairs and can be reached at satamp@gmail.com
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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  Hole Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:11 pm

    George1 wrote:Chinese electronic warfare aircraft J-16D

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4400772.html

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J-16re10
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J-16re11
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J-16re12

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    Post  walle83 Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:59 pm

    PLA Air Force to unveil WZ-7 high-altitude reconnaissance drone at Airshow China 2021

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 05fe2710

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202109/1235017.shtml

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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  Hole Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:43 pm

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 000183
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 000363
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 000445
    CH-6

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    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  Hole Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:45 pm

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Fh-97_10
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:55 pm

    Electronic warfare aircraft J-16D again. Beutiful.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:10 pm

    You should say "su-30 is beautiful".

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    Post  walle83 Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:03 pm

    Isos wrote:You should say "su-30 is beautiful".

    Well the whole Flanker family I supose.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:19 am

    Just shows they have good taste... they could have copied any old design...

    That CH-4 is interesting... it is a jet, but has straight thin wings so it is clearly subsonic and I would guess flys at rather high altitude to justify jet engines.

    It is also interesting that that Su-30, the pod under the wing seems to have wings/fins sticking out of it... at first I thought they might have designed the pod so a missile could be attached underneath so the pylon wasn't wasted, but I rather now think it is some sort of external antenna for the pod, which is different from the other pods being carried.
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    Post  walle83 Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:Just shows they have good taste... they could have copied any old design...

    Nah, the Su-27/30 was the only modern fighter available to the Chinese at the time. If the US had offerd them the F-15 im sure they would have copied that as well.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:50 am

    I don't agree... if they decided they wanted F-15s they would have stolen the designs and copied them... they wanted Flankers and they bought Flankers... if Russia had refused to sell then they probably would have stolen the plans and made a copy anyway... this is not a game... this is national defence...

    Many of their drones look like US drones... some of the Russian drones look like US drones... when you are given the task of solving a problem for your country the first step in the design process is to look at all current and suggested solutions used by other people... you then evaluate good points and bad points of each of those designs and decide which features and problems suit you best.

    Most of the time there is the best available solution, but other peoples problems and therefore their solutions are not always exactly the same as the ones you are dealing with so sometimes other details need to be added for your solution to work for your problem.


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    Post  walle83 Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:04 am

    GarryB wrote:I don't agree... if they decided they wanted F-15s they would have stolen the designs and copied them... they wanted Flankers and they bought Flankers... if Russia had refused to sell then they probably would have stolen the planes and made a copy anyway... this is not a game... this is national defence...

    Many of their drones look like US drones... some of the Russian drones look like US drones... when you are given the task of solving a problem for your country the first step in the design process is to look at all current and suggested solutions used by other people... you then evaluate good points and bad points of each of those designs and decide which features and problems suit you best.

    Most of the time there is the best available solution, but other peoples problems and therefore their solutions are not always exactly the same as the ones you are dealing with so sometimes other details need to be added for your solution to work for your problem.

    Its not that easy to "steal" a aircraft design. Specialy not in the 90s. China was more or less forced to buy Russian fighters. No western nation would sell them any.
    And if they some how had copied the F-15 design, no way they would be able to copy and built the engine, radar ecs.
    When they bought the first Su-27 they could start to copy every system it carried. If Russia decided not to sell them the aircraft it would have taken the Chinese years and years to develop a new 4th generation aircraft.
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    Post  RTN Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:41 am

    GarryB wrote:I don't agree... if they decided they wanted F-15s they would have stolen the designs and copied them... they wanted Flankers and they bought Flankers...
    China did not purchase F-16 either, but J-10 is a copy of the F-16.

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