Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+49
ChineseTiger
Sujoy
IPCR_quad
IPCRquad
thedrunkengeneral
bren_tann
lancelot
Backman
Isos
Tsavo Lion
immortal_sharpener
walle83
Rodion_Romanovic
Hole
miketheterrible
d_taddei2
ATLASCUB
George1
Benya
airstrike
zg18
mutantsushi
Berkut
Book.
max steel
type055
higurashihougi
magnumcromagnon
Mike E
Werewolf
nemrod
Viktor
TR1
Cyberspec
GarryB
Pervius
IronsightSniper
Ogannisyan8887
nightcrawler
solo.13mmfmj
Vladislav
Hitman
Sukhoi37_Terminator
Jelena
Stealthflanker
Russian Patriot
sepheronx
milky_candy_sugar
Admin
53 posters

    PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 516
    Points : 526
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  walle83 Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:38 am

    https://eurasiantimes.com/saab-gripen-rips-apart-chinese-j-11-fighters-in-war-games-experts-call-them-sitting-ducks-for-rafales/?amp

    zepia likes this post

    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 516
    Points : 526
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  walle83 Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:03 pm

    J-11s and a J-10 flying in formation.

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J10j1110
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J10j1111
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 J10j1112
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 4219
    Points : 4303
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  medo Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:34 pm

    J-16 and J-10.

    walle83 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30619
    Points : 31149
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:59 am

    That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7877
    Points : 7861
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  Isos Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:45 am

    Such exercices show nothing. They don't fight at 100% and don't show the real data about their missiles.

    GarryB likes this post

    zepia
    zepia

    Posts : 187
    Points : 192
    Join date : 2015-05-05
    Location : Bangkok

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  zepia Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:31 am

    GarryB wrote:That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.

    This article from The Diplomat gave us a lot more comprehensive view on the drill.
    https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/flankers-vs-gripens-what-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

    To me, BVR engagement result was not unexpected. J-11 is a plain classic Flanker, and AFAIK Chinese didn't update them at all.
    While Gripen C is a decade or two newer platform and design around concept of "situation awareness" and "network warfare" eg. integrated data link.
    Plus the different in size, J-11 is a big big target in radar while Gripen is quite a smaller plane and incorporate some low observability design.

    Actually the main reason RTAF broke their loyalty on US of A manufacturer was to obtain the key into these modern warfare concepts.
    Saab was offered 12 birds, 2 Erieyes (+1 bare 340 plane) and an agreement to help RTAF develop their own tactical data link (called "Link-TH"). Which suit their needs very well.
    Compare to US meh offer, a dozen of plain F-16 Block 52.

    What catch my interest is the Gripen is no match for Flanker in WVR engagement.
    I don't know if the engagement emphasis on platforms or weapons. AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Later years drill are more interest since Chinese participated with more advance domestic planes.
    But I wonder if we will ever learn about the result.
    avatar
    walle83

    Posts : 516
    Points : 526
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  walle83 Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:28 pm

    zepia wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.

    This article from The Diplomat gave us a lot more comprehensive view on the drill.
    https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/flankers-vs-gripens-what-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

    To me, BVR engagement result was not unexpected. J-11 is a plain classic Flanker, and AFAIK Chinese didn't update them at all.
    While Gripen C is a decade or two newer platform and design around concept of "situation awareness" and "network warfare" eg. integrated data link.
    Plus the different in size, J-11 is a big big target in radar while Gripen is quite a smaller plane and incorporate some low observability design.

    Actually the main reason RTAF broke their loyalty on US of A manufacturer was to obtain the key into these modern warfare concepts.
    Saab was offered 12 birds, 2 Erieyes (+1 bare 340 plane) and an agreement to help RTAF develop their own tactical data link (called "Link-TH"). Which suit their needs very well.
    Compare to US meh offer, a dozen of plain F-16 Block 52.

    What catch my interest is the Gripen is no match for Flanker in WVR engagement.
    I don't know if the engagement emphasis on platforms or weapons. AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Later years drill are more interest since Chinese participated with more advance domestic planes.
    But I wonder if we will ever learn about the result.

    Does the Thai Gripens have meteor missiles? Would explain alot.
    zepia
    zepia

    Posts : 187
    Points : 192
    Join date : 2015-05-05
    Location : Bangkok

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  zepia Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:44 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    zepia wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That claim that the Gripen beat the Chinese Flankers is interesting... first if all is it coming from the Thais, and second we really don't know what equipment each side was using or NOT using.

    Did the Chinese use R-77s or did they just use R-27s.... assuming the Thais used AMRAAM.

    Deficiency in EW and long range combat and of course aircraft to aircraft communications would be expected for the Chinese aircraft because they probably want to use their own and they don't have the experience in that field that SAAB or the Russians have.

    The fact that China is training with the Thai Air Force means they are looking at their own capabilities and trying to get better... which I would suggest should be of interest to the west.

    Before the west ever came up against enemy MiG-29s in real air to air combat they got a chance to play with them in Germany in a safe environment and develop tactics and equipment to defeat them. The downgraded MiG-29s of Iraq in Desert Storm mostly just ran away to Iran.

    These results might make Europe think they are fine against all Flanker types but these planes don't represent anything other than what they are, so the feelings of superiority and advantage will be largely misplaced and erroneous.

    A Gripen operating from Thailand with Flankers arriving from China is one thing, but a Gripen in Finland fending off Russian Flankers operating as part of their IADS is something totally different... in Europe the roles are reversed because it will be European fighters operating away from their own territory and operating near Russian territory... which is not simulated in these exercises I suspect.

    This article from The Diplomat gave us a lot more comprehensive view on the drill.
    https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/flankers-vs-gripens-what-happened-at-the-falcon-strike-2015-exercise/

    To me, BVR engagement result was not unexpected. J-11 is a plain classic Flanker, and AFAIK Chinese didn't update them at all.
    While Gripen C is a decade or two newer platform and design around concept of "situation awareness" and "network warfare" eg. integrated data link.
    Plus the different in size, J-11 is a big big target in radar while Gripen is quite a smaller plane and incorporate some low observability design.

    Actually the main reason RTAF broke their loyalty on US of A manufacturer was to obtain the key into these modern warfare concepts.
    Saab was offered 12 birds, 2 Erieyes (+1 bare 340 plane) and an agreement to help RTAF develop their own tactical data link (called "Link-TH"). Which suit their needs very well.
    Compare to US meh offer, a dozen of plain F-16 Block 52.

    What catch my interest is the Gripen is no match for Flanker in WVR engagement.
    I don't know if the engagement emphasis on platforms or weapons. AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Later years drill are more interest since Chinese participated with more advance domestic planes.
    But I wonder if we will ever learn about the result.

    Does the Thai Gripens have meteor missiles? Would explain alot.

    No, the only medium range in inventory is AMRAAM.
    I heard they're eyeing the Meteor but nothing official yet.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30619
    Points : 31149
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:15 am

    AIM-9L did inferior to R-73 that's for sure.

    Lima and Mike model Sidewinders are ancient and totally inferior to even base model export R-73s.

    The L and M model sidewinders are from the early 1980s and have no high off boresight capability, have trouble tracking targets manvouering hard, and are suckers for Soviet and Russian flares... at the time they were good because R-73 production was slow initially and limited to Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces, but once it hit the export market... well...

    It was the reason the down graded export model MiG29s the East Germans had beat any and all opposition during the 1990s testing.

    The best performing western aircraft of the time was the F-16 and it got onto the tail of the MiG-29 62% of the time, so if they both had the same Sidewinder load out the F-16 would have won 62% of the time... which would be a terrible defeat for HATO because they expected to win in close combat with few losses because the Soviets still had thousands of single engined fighters and they couldn't afford anything close to parity in results of dogfights.

    The R-73, with its thrust vectoring motor and high offboresight seeker that was controlled by a helmet mounted sight or radar or IRST didn't require the aircraft to get behind the target for an assured kill and the MiG-29 won every engagement because by the time the F-16 got on its tail it was already judged to have been killed.

    Replacing the Sidewinders with X Ray Models (ie AIM-9X) was not a solution because despite having a better seeker and wide angle detection and tracking performance and the ability to track 9g targets all the enemy pilot has to do is launch their missile before your missile kills his plane and it is one all... which, considering the numbers of aircraft they are reducing down to as the new ones get more and more expensive is not acceptable either so after a short panic they poured funds and hope into AMRAAM which was not well funded before that because they thought Soviet pilots were drones and their missiles were shit and they could kill them like a combine harvester collects corn in a cornfield.

    Tactics shifted to BVR range combat using advantages in AWACS and JSTARS and of course high flying supersonic stealth fighters launching missiles at even greater ranges...

    BVR engagements are mostly successful when the target does not know they are under attack. A third world country enemy in a MiG-21 or Su-17 is one thing, but a country with electronics and systems almost as good as yours or better is a real challenge to a force that neglects ground based air defence and focuses on air power...
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 16609
    Points : 17114
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  George1 Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:14 pm

    Flights of the Chinese UAV TW328 / TB-001 in the East China Sea and the Pacific Ocean

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 55779610
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 55781410
    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 91557310

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4383817.html

    Hole likes this post

    Finty
    Finty

    Posts : 339
    Points : 345
    Join date : 2021-02-10
    Location : Great Britain

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty China flies TEN aircraft including fighter jets into Taiwan's airspace ramping up tensions just a day after AUKUS pact was signed

    Post  Finty Yesterday at 11:11 pm

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10001967/amp/China-flies-TEN-aircraft-including-fighter-jets-Taiwans-airspace.html

    China has flown ten aircraft including fighter jets into Taiwan's air space just a day after the UK, US and Australia signed a defence pact to push back against Beijing.

    Taipei said two J-11 fighters, six J-16 fighters, one Y-8 anti-submarine plane and one Y-8 spy aircraft entered its air defence identification zone near Pratas Island today.

    Fighter jets were scrambled to turn the aircraft back while radio warnings were also broadcast and missile defence systems activated to monitor the situation.

    Taiwan scrambled fighter jets and activated its missile defences today to drive away what it said were ten Chinese aircraft that encroached into its airspace
    Details of the flights published by Taiwan's defence ministry show the Chinese fighters briefly skirted into the defence zone before turning back.

    But the spy plane and anti-submarine aircraft made a longer route, flying several miles along Taiwan's south coast before turning around and heading away.

    The island's government has complained for a year of repeated missions by China's air force near its borders, often in the southwestern part of its air defense zone close to Taiwan-controlled Pratas Island.

    Self-governing Taiwan, which is home to the Republic of China which fought against the Communist Party when it first emerged, views itself as an independent state but Beijing views it as a breakaway province.

    It has long-standing ties with the US, which historically recognised it as the legitimate government of China.

    Tensions around the island have been mounting since President Xi Jinping vowed in 2019 to 'reunify' Taiwan with the Chinese mainland, using force if necessary.

    Among the aircraft Taiwan said it intercepted were six J-16 fighters (pictured, file image) and two J-11 fighter jets which were quickly turned away

    A Y-8 anti-submarine plane and a Y-8 spy aircraft (pictured, file image) also entered Taiwan's airspace and flew a longer route before turning back

    The standoff entered a new phase on Thursday when Australia, the UK and US announced a new defence pact to share military technology that will include giving Australia its first fleet of nuclear submarines.

    Beijing reacted angrily to the deal, denouncing the allies' 'Cold War mentality' while warning it risks stability in the region and could make Australia the target of a nuclear strike.

    Shortly after the alliance was announced, Australian defence minister Peter Dutton admitted that war with China is possible - with Taiwan likely to be the flashpoint.

    The deal is about securing 'peace' in the region, Mr Dutton insisted, but added that the odds of a conflict with China 'shouldn't be discounted'.

    Australia admits war with China IS possible over Taiwan amid warnings that Beijing could use nukes and fears that Britain could now be dragged into the conflict after signing AUKUS submarine pact

    North Korea is expanding its plutonium-producing nuclear reactor and could increase stocks of weapons-grade uranium by 25 per cent, satellite images reveal
    'The Chinese.. are very clear of their intent with regard to Taiwan [and] the United States has been very clear of their intention toward Taiwan,' he said.

    'Nobody wants to see conflict but that really is a question for the Chinese.'

    The incident came a day after Taiwan proposed extra defence spending of $9billion over the next five years, including on new missiles, warning of an urgent need to upgrade weapons in the face of a 'severe threat' from China.

    Peter Dutton, Australia's defence minister, warned that war with China is possible after signing joint defence deal with the UK and America
    Speaking earlier on Friday, Taiwan Premier Su Tseng-chang said the government had to take the threat from China seriously.

    'The Chinese Communists plot against us constantly,' he said.

    Taiwan's defence spending 'is based on safeguarding national sovereignty, national security, and national security. We must not relax. We must have the best preparations so that no war will occur', he added.

    China's government, for its part, criticised Taiwan Foreign Minister Joseph Wu on Friday for comments this week in which he said Taiwan was a 'sea fortress' blocking China's expansion into the Pacific.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 16609
    Points : 17114
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  George1 Today at 12:05 am

    Chinese electronic warfare aircraft J-16D

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4400772.html

    Sponsored content

    PLA Air Force General News Thread: - Page 13 Empty Re: PLA Air Force General News Thread:

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:22 pm