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    Il-112V light military transport

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:21 pm

    Sometimes a concept could be also parked for years, waiting for proper conditions (e.g. the existence of an initial (potential) customer for the product and/or the need of some associated required technologies to mature to an acceptable level) and then later "resuscitated".
    Doesn't Putin want to revive Russia's aviation industry? There is a reason the USSR/RF produced the most powerful helos & other vehicles to reach the remotest of places.
    IMO they can start building prototypes even if some technologies r not mature enough yet. The 1st tilt rotors & tandem/coaxial rotor/high speed helos appeared decades before their follow-ons were inducted into service.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:41 am

    In VDV & other sp. mission roles they & other helos IMO r more suitable & versatile.

    The VDV have a history of customised vehicles for their use, because their need are quite specific and quite different from the needs of other branches of the armed forces.

    The BMD is pretty much a very light weight BMP, but while it has the same fire power generally it has reduced armour and size because it needs to be air dropped.

    In terms of aircraft the whole point of the An-70 was for VDV use as a medium transport that can operate from rough airstrips and land forces at lower flight speeds, which meant more compact groups and shorter periods of time needed to assemble and get moving after landing.

    What they want is the An-70 but that is no longer an option for them... the Il-476 is little different from the Il-76 they have been using all this time, the Il-276 is too small for much of their equipment and would have similar speed issues being powered by the same engines as the larger Il-476 but with two instead of four.

    The Il-476 with propfan engines would retain the weight capacity of the Il-476 but would allow lower flight speeds for landing vehicles and troops in larger but still compact groups.

    They prefered the Il-76 and its higher speed to the An-12 with its lower payload and lower flight speed even though on paper the An-12 offers the lower speed they want... they clearly want fewer aircraft in the sky and the longer flight range of the Il-76 over the lower flight speed of the An-12.

    The An-70 would give them everything they want... large capacity of vehicles and men and long range with lower flight speed for more comfortable jumping and smaller landing groups that can form up faster and get under way faster after landing.

    The obvious solution therefore is a propfan version of the Il-476 which would be fairly simple to achieve... they just need to develop a new propfan version of the PD-14 or PD-35 engine they are going to use for it... which is not nothing, but certainly much less than developing the An-70 and engines as well.

    As I said those propfans could be used on the scaled down Il-276 to make a handy rough strip landing mediumlight transport...

    The Il-112 may not be made as good as they hope, while the Il-276 is a paper plane that may have similar problems.

    The Il-112 just needs to do the job of the An-26, so it should be fine.

    The Il-276 is a scaled down Il-476... same airframe crosssection, half the number of engines... slightly shorter body... should not be a huge problem.

    The An-8/12/124s & the Il-76s had long histories of upgrades &/ deep modernization to improve their performances over many years; the same will happen with Il-112/276s.

    Agree... the Il-276 is just a modification of the Il-476 to fill a gap left by the An-12 being removed from service and the Il-112 is there to replace the An-26.

    Once they have the PD-35 working they can upgrade the An-124s with them and then look at the design and work out what changes they want to make for the replacement.

    To hedge their bets, development & fielding of those rotary wings should be put on the same footing, esp. since they stated there's a need for them anyway.

    I totally disagree... those tilt rotors are totally unproven and the existing range of helicopters have replacements ready to go, not to mention high speed helo models whose new blade and engine technology could be applied to existing types to make them useful for a much longer period.

    The Il-112 and the Il-276 and the Il-476 are important because the An-26 and the An-72 and the An-12 are coming to the end of their lives and need replacement... and the An-70 is never going to be in the Russian military.

    Replacement for the Mi-17 is the Mi-38, there is a new middle class helo being developed by Russia and China, but there is still Mi-26, and also the modified Russianised An-2 for use in the far east and arctic... there is no urgent need for tilt rotors or tandems or anything risky and unproven like that.

    The Soviets tried tandems and had problems with vibrations and other issues that killed the idea... even if they had solid solutions there is not enough of a market to justify the development costs of designing a new aircraft for one or two sales...

    Otherwise, why would those designers bother wasting their time on producing those concepts I posted?

    Designers design... that is their job, but for every successful design there are literally thousands of designs that never get off the design board to prototype stage and for every serially produced aircraft there are thousands of prototypes where problems were found but solutions were not.

    There'll be plenty of small & big local conflicts, infrastructure projects & natural disasters, incl. in remote locations, in the next few decades for them to keep their jobs.

    There are already a wide range of platforms that can get the job done from Mi-8s and lighter and heavier helicopters through to hovercraft and air ships...

    Sometimes a concept could be also parked for years, waiting for proper conditions (e.g. the existence of an initial (potential) customer for the product and/or the need of some associated required technologies to mature to an acceptable level) and then later "resuscitated".

    Indeed the concept of the Harrier jump jet is fine but without a turbofan engine it is dead...

    Equally the development of fuel cell technology and electric motors and composite materials that are very light and yet very strong and can be made fire resistant and add things like solar panels and large radar antenna arrays and of course small compact nuclear power batteries then the day of the Air Ship is coming back...

    Who will be first to spot it?

    Doesn't Putin want to revive Russia's aviation industry?

    The aviation industry is being revived, new designs are being talked about and being put into production and testing... they need a lot of new engine types that are on the way, which is the stumbling block at the moment, but things are moving forward fast enough without wasting time and money on exotic very niche technologies.

    It would be of more value to them to have high speed rail networks and more airfields around the place than tilt rotors and tandem helos.

    There is a reason the USSR/RF produced the most powerful helos & other vehicles to reach the remotest of places.
    IMO they can start building prototypes even if some technologies r not mature enough yet.

    Immature designs and technologies kill, and create a bad name for technologies.

    Look at airships... the first thing people think of is the Hindenberg and you lose them.

    Safety and procedures and technology could make them completely safe these days but few will touch them... mostly because of a negative image...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:40 am

    ..they just need to develop a new propfan version of the PD-14 or PD-35 engine they are going to use for it... which is not nothing, but certainly much less than developing the An-70 and engines as well...the An-70 is never going to be in the Russian military.
    The An-70 & it's props were co-developed & tested, mostly by/in Russia, already. If only China starts building them, some could be leased/sold to Russia, under a different name, with different engines. If the EU+UK have dozens of A-400Ms, why Russia shouldn't have a better performing An-70 variants & use, following ur logic, other planes as poor & unproven substitutes?
    ..those tilt rotors are totally unproven and the existing range of helicopters have replacements ready to go, not to mention high speed helo models whose new blade and engine technology could be applied to existing types to make them useful for a much longer period.
    Since u like analogies: podded under wing engines 1st appeared on the B-47/52s & then Western airliners; the Western looking Il-86 followed suit regardless the ideology. Tilt/tandem-rotors offer unique capabilities, & Russia will eventually have them, not just because the West has them, but due to their utility & ability.
    Siberia & Canada r of similar size, terrain & climate; if the Labrador CH-113/CH-46/47 was/r good enough for them & the USMC/Army, the Russian counterpart would be useful too. https://hazersflightline.com/ch-113-labrador

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85-e67_Xg5E

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6dRqhzCchE
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:28 am

    The second flight of the Il-112V will take place in early 2020

    At the same time, the chief designer of the IL-112V Sergey Lyashenko did not name a specific date.


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6618964
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:45 am

    Sounds like they have a lot of things to change in it!
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:30 pm

    Why do you say that?

    Early 2020 is about 6 months away... they obviously can't be making fundamental serious changes in such a short period...
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:00 am

    Source: Il-112V aircraft mass will be reduced by at least 2 tons

    TASS interviewer indicated that in order to reduce weight, some aggregates will change


    The weight loss plan is being carried out, now it is going ahead with some advance. It has already been partially implemented on the“ unit ”(the first car is TASS), it is planned to realize a weight reduction to a ton. said the agency interlocutor.

    According to him, in order to reduce weight, some units will change. "We have already launched the manufacture of a new ramp and cargo door hatch. Four sets were ordered at once - for a" unit ", for a" resourceman "and for the third and fourth aircraft," said the source.

    The interlocutor of the agency also noted that some of the "lightweight" units are likely to be installed on the machines after the tests. In addition, in terms of reducing the mass of the aircraft is an event - reducing the composition of the navigator's workplace.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6652532
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL on Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:12 pm

    dino00 wrote:Source: Il-112V aircraft mass will be reduced by at least 2 tons

    TASS interviewer indicated that in order to reduce weight, some aggregates will change


    The weight loss plan is being carried out, now it is going ahead with some advance. It has already been partially implemented on the“ unit ”(the first car is TASS), it is planned to realize a weight reduction to a ton. said the agency interlocutor.

    According to him, in order to reduce weight, some units will change. "We have already launched the manufacture of a new ramp and cargo door hatch. Four sets were ordered at once - for a" unit ", for a" resourceman "and for the third and fourth aircraft," said the source.

    The interlocutor of the agency also noted that some of the "lightweight" units are likely to be installed on the machines after the tests. In addition, in terms of reducing the mass of the aircraft is an event - reducing the composition of the navigator's workplace.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6652532

    The problem with the weight of the Il-112V, is that Ilyuchin has built it as if it were an Il-76 of reduced size

    That can work with the Il-276 that will carry reactors, but it does not work with a plane with twin-turboprop

    The rear structure is not only heavier, but has the rear wings raised above the rest of the fuselage, which makes to rise up its center of gravity

    This has made it necessary to ballast with 2000 kg, the nose of the plane to recover stability


    Cutting the weight just by lightening some components is an error. The configuration of the rear part of the plane must be changed to make it similar to the An -26

    Also the total wing surface seems insufficient for a turboprop plane.
    The wings should be wider to give more sustenance, which would increase the air support and therefore the range of the plane



    The CN-295 is a good example with 9.5 t. payload

    If things are done well, the Il-112V should have a payload of at least 8 t. , in fact the engines have enough power to overcome even CN-295
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:59 pm

    Well, maybe later they'll fix it the way ivan gren class were modified Very Happy
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:17 pm

    Tu-16 and Tu-95 had weight problems at first. For that they lasted quite long. Smile
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:08 am

    They really don't want to fix the design with ballast weights... especially ones that are 2 tons... that is just ridiculous... carrying around a 2 ton dead weight will greatly reduce performance and handling and apart from making the aircraft more flyable there are not good sides... it is a short term band aid solution you use until a much more permanent solution can be found to solve the problem.

    CG issues can be fixed by moving the main wing forward or back, by enlarging it, and adding control surfaces with a wider range of motion...

    Many fighters have poor cgs but they use that to enable rapid manouver performance... very simply a very stable aircraft will continue as it is so it takes more force to make it turn or change course... unstable aircraft will turn more rapidly... which is good for a fighter, but not so good for a transport.

    This has made it necessary to ballast with 2000 kg, the nose of the plane to recover stability

    One way to compensate for lack of weight in the nose is to orient the horizontal tail so that it constantly generates a lifting force to keep the nose down, so when the horizontal tail is in neutral it will actually be lifting the tail up and therefore pushing the nose down.

    A better solution would be to change the position and lift (area) of the wing to move the cg so the aircraft is better balanced and can have all its lifting surfaces lifting instead of generating downwards or upwards forces for balance.

    If things are done well, the Il-112V should have a payload of at least 8 t. , in fact the engines have enough power to overcome even CN-295

    I agree, it would be a good opportunity to make the aircraft a little more capable...
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:23 am

    It's good that they look at many alternatives to reduce weight. Improving some components weight via material and design change is very important. It shows that at the beginning they did not do an acceptable job for the aerospace industry.
    Anyway, they have already removed 2 tons, we can expect that with the other changes to fix the cg issue the need for a ballast will be removed. just such changes alone will bring the payload to the desired level.
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    Post  Hole on Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:35 pm

    Skip the navigator. With GLONASS and digital maps there is no need for one, even in the mids of Siberia.
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    Post  AMCXXL on Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:46 am

    GarryB wrote:They really don't want to fix the design with ballast weights... especially ones that are 2 tons... that is just ridiculous... carrying around a 2 ton dead weight will greatly reduce performance and handling and apart from making the aircraft more flyable there are not good sides... it is a short term band aid solution you use until a much more permanent solution can be found to solve the problem.

    CG issues can be fixed by moving the main wing forward or back, by enlarging it, and adding control surfaces with a wider range of motion…


    The problem as I see it is not only an excess weight but where they have put the weight.

    The design is similar to that of the Il-76 on a small scale and that will not work.
    The rear structure creates an imbalance in the aircraft's center of gravity, which is why they have had to put the ballast in the nose of the plane.

    In a plane like the Il-76MD-90A with more than 200 tons of MTOW, that excess weight and /or imbalance would be insignificant and easily correctable , but in the Il-112 with 21 t. of MTOW that's critical

    If the plane was well balanced, it would not need any ballast and much less 2 tons

    Just compare it with other aircraft of the same segment , such as the An-26 or the CN-295 to realize that not only are they more slender, but also that the design of this type of turbo-prop aircraft does not look like the larger and heavier planes with jets

    In any case if the plane should have in principle 5 to 6 tons of payload (without ballast), and also are able to redeem 2000 kg or more by lightening the components , could reach 7.5 or 8 t. of payload, that is a more acceptable figure for a design of this type in the 21st century


    The main problem they have is that there is a rush to replace the fleet of AN-26. The resource is in the final stretch of its useful life and the Il-112 must be in full production as soon as posible

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