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    Hazing in the Army

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    Mamut
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    Dedovshina in Russian Army

    Post  Mamut on Wed May 28, 2014 11:36 pm

    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw

    Is this what I can expect if I enlist for Russian Armed Forces?

    Little more about Dedovshina:

    Dedovshchina (Russian: дедовщи́на; IPA: [dʲɪdɐˈfɕːinə]; lit. grandfatherism) is the name given to the informal system of subjection of new junior conscripts, formerly to the Soviet Armed Forces and today to the Russian armed forces, Internal Troops, and (to a much lesser extent) FSB border guards, as well as the military forces of certain former Soviet Republics, to brutalization by the conscripts serving their last year of compulsory military service as well as NCOs and officers. Dedovshchina is the Soviet and Russian variety of the US, Canadian, etc. hazing tradition (or the Nonnismo in the Italian Army before its transformation in a volunteer army) involving harsh, unofficial initiation of a person into a military organization.
    Dedovshchina involves a spectrum of subordinating or humiliating activities performed by the junior ranks: from carrying out chores of the senior ranks to violent and sometimes lethal physical and psychological abuse, being not unlike an extremely vicious form of bullying or even torture. It is often cited as a major source of poor morale in the ranks.
    Often with the justification of maintaining authority, physical violence or psychological abuse can be applied to make "youth" to do certain fatigue duties. In many situations, hazing is in fact not the goal. Conscripts with "seniority" exploit their juniors to provide themselves with a more comfortable existence, and the violent aspects arise when juniors refuse to "follow traditions". There have been occasions where soldiers have been seriously injured. In extraordinary situations, there is a lethal outcome.
    he origin of this problem is often attributed to the change in conscription term brought about by the law of October 12, 1967, causing two different groups of conscripts to be simultaneously present in the army: those who were drafted for 3-year service and those only for 2-year service.During the same year, a decision was reached to draft conscripts with a criminal history into the ranks, due to a demographic crisis following World War II. While oppression by older conscripts has probably always taken place in the army, after that date, with the introduction of the four-class system[clarification needed] it became systematic and developed its own rules and ranks.
    Many young men are killed or commit suicide every year because of dedovshchina. The New York Times reported that in 2006 at least 292 Russian soldiers were killed by dedovshchina (although the Russian military only admits that 16 soldiers were directly murdered by acts of dedovshchina and claims that the rest committed suicide). The Times states: "On Aug. 4, it was announced by the chief military prosecutor that there had been 3,500 reports of abuse already this year (2006), compared with 2,798 in 2005". The BBC meanwhile reports that in 2007, 341 soldiers committed suicide, a 15% reduction on the previous year.
    Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia works to protect the rights of young soldiers.
    In 2012, a draftee from Chelyabinsk region, Ruslan Aiderkhanov, was raped and tortured to death by his seniors. The lone witness who testified against the alleged perpetrators, Danil Chalkin, was later found shot dead in his military base. A contract soldier, Alikbek Musabekov was later arrested in this incident.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Regular on Thu May 29, 2014 2:19 am

    It was discussed 100 times. 
    It's way less harsher these days. You might not experience violence at all. Reason for that is shorter conscription time, more control and less interaction with people who are finishing their service.  
    Well there are still problems with Contract soldiers and conscripts, but afaik they are being kept away.
    What You see in the video is piece of shit mentality that is becoming in the past in Russia. 
    It still happens, but it more subtle ways, still if You can't fight for Yourself You are gonner not only in army.
    Questions?

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  sepheronx on Thu May 29, 2014 7:23 am

    Where the heck is Flaming Python? He is wasting his time with the idiots at MP.net

    He would know, since he served in the Russian military.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Thu May 29, 2014 8:12 am

    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw
    This video is as old as a dinosaur dung.

    First thing, dedovshina isn't what is shown in a video. It's some kind of a brutal hazing and a reason to fire officers and send soldiers to disciplinary battalions. Dedovshina was a simple way for some offcers to install a discipline without much of an efford (as deds did much job for themselves). It growed high after the fall of the Union, as discipline among officers was low due to low payments, training fundings was low, ect.

    Actually such things could happen if many testosterone-filled aggressive men is locked up in an enclosed space with no actual work to be done, that why there are legends about stupid hard manual work in the Army.
    I was in the Army in the mid 2008, it was hear Pskov, VDV contract soldiers from a near unit was kept in barracks all the time and they were going crazy. They infiltrated our unit's camp one night, conflicted our starshina and put one of our demonstration tents on fire, next time hi-jacked one of thier BTR-Ds and drived it to a town for booze. After that the 080808 war begun, and they were redeployed to the Caucasus. I think it was the reason why they were kept on high alert for that long, military intelligence didn't know the exact time of the georgian intervention

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 29, 2014 9:18 am

    Asf wrote:
    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw
    This video is as old as a dinosaur dung.

    First thing, dedovshina isn't what is shown in a video. It's some kind of a brutal hazing and a reason to fire officers and send soldiers to disciplinary battalions. Dedovshina was a simple way for some offcers to install a discipline without much of an efford (as deds did much job for themselves). It growed high after the fall of the Union, as discipline among officers was low due to low payments, training fundings was low, ect.

    Actually such things could happen if many testosterone-filled aggressive men is locked up in an enclosed space with no actual work to be done, that why there are legends about stupid hard manual work in the Army.
    I was in the Army in the mid 2008, it was hear Pskov, VDV contract soldiers from a near unit was kept in barracks all the time and they were going crazy. They infiltrated our unit's camp one night, conflicted our starshina and put one of our demonstration tents on fire, next time hi-jacked one of thier BTR-Ds and drived it to a town for booze. After that the 080808 war begun, and they were redeployed to the Caucasus. I think it was the reason why they were kept on high alert for that long, military intelligence didn't know the exact time of the georgian intervention

    Jesus. Jacking BTR-Ds should be ground for serious disciplinary action.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Thu May 29, 2014 9:57 am

    It was most likely. Military vehicle hi-jacking is a criminal offence

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 30, 2014 8:49 am

    It was most likely. Military vehicle hi-jacking is a criminal offence

    Damn... so if I want an old BRDM-2 to trash round in... I have to work out some way to get them to give me one?


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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Fri May 30, 2014 9:24 am

    so if I want an old BRDM-2 to trash round in
    It's actually possible. MoD sells old equipment (with weapons dismounted of course), it counts as a non-military vehicle legally. Not all vehicle type can be bought but BRDM-2 could - it's popular among strikeball players and thrill-seekers, so there are companies providing BRDMs as a taxi, for example  Smile I saw a video about it some time ago. Personally, I'd like a T-80 tank for myself. Or atleast a MT-LB for trophies  Smile  Riding in a MT-LB is a brutal expirience I can tell you: it's dark, stuffy and noisy inside. And the whole thing is vibrating as hell. Riding in a T-80 is much more comfortable


    Last edited by Asf on Fri May 30, 2014 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Mamut on Fri May 30, 2014 9:28 am

    So would foreigners in the Russian Military be subjected to Dedovschina? Smile

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Fri May 30, 2014 9:45 am

    So would foreigners in the Russian Military be subjected to Dedovschina?
    Contractor soldiers isn't a subject for dedovshina, it's a nearly extinct conscript soldiers only tradition.

    If you want to hear scary things:
    - you can have your bonuses cut or be fired from service at all;
    - you can be beaten in secret by you mates for being a jerk;
    - you can be sent to a disciplinary battalion on a military court's decision for a crime against military service (like ignoring an order, ect) or be sent to ordinary prison for a general crime;
    - you can be shot down by an officer in case of desertion or treachery at the face of an enemy or in an emergency situation.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Regular on Fri May 30, 2014 7:07 pm

    Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Mamut on Sat May 31, 2014 1:41 pm

    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:56 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Where the heck is Flaming Python?  He is wasting his time with the idiots at MP.net

    He would know, since he served in the Russian military.

    Na, I've just been so focussed on that Ukraine thread that I've barely peeked out it and browsed the rest of the forum.

    Anyway, I think Asf has pretty much nailed everything anyway, nothing more to add

    TR1 wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw
    This video is as old as a dinosaur dung.

    First thing, dedovshina isn't what is shown in a video. It's some kind of a brutal hazing and a reason to fire officers and send soldiers to disciplinary battalions. Dedovshina was a simple way for some offcers to install a discipline without much of an efford (as deds did much job for themselves). It growed high after the fall of the Union, as discipline among officers was low due to low payments, training fundings was low, ect.

    Actually such things could happen if many testosterone-filled aggressive men is locked up in an enclosed space with no actual work to be done, that why there are legends about stupid hard manual work in the Army.
    I was in the Army in the mid 2008, it was hear Pskov, VDV contract soldiers from a near unit was kept in barracks all the time and they were going crazy. They infiltrated our unit's camp one night, conflicted our starshina and put one of our demonstration tents on fire, next time hi-jacked one of thier BTR-Ds and drived it to a town for booze. After that the 080808 war begun, and they were redeployed to the Caucasus. I think it was the reason why they were kept on high alert for that long, military intelligence didn't know the exact time of the georgian intervention

    Jesus. Jacking BTR-Ds should be ground for serious disciplinary action.

    Oh believe me some crazy shit goes down. All our officers and NCOs walked around with unloaded Makarovs. Remember hearing that part of the reason was something that happened a few years back with the vice-commander firing his one off in a rage or something.
    Probably a good thing too, I remember an NCO 'breaching' our guardhouse with pistol drawn as a prank against one of the contractors inside. Well he fumbled and dropped the damn thing before he even got inside; I watched the whole episode.

    We had an all-terrain armoured-ish vehicle (looked a bit like an MT-LB but different) in our unit that some of the contractors took for a spin sometimes for fishing trips but that's different of course.

    But really 95% of the crazyness is behind us; serious discipline started getting enforced starting from about 2008-2009.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:03 pm

    Mamut wrote:
    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    The only thing you have to be paranoid about in that sense is the pork on the dinner menu.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Regular on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:47 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Mamut wrote:
    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    The only thing you have to be paranoid about in that sense is the pork on the dinner menu.
    My father told me stories about Russians making fun from muslims in canteen. Soldiers used part of their uniform to form pig ear and make pig sounds when eating Very Happy Only worked with salabons, muslims who were dedi could eat a pig and wouldn't give a eff Very Happy apart from that, that was the only "harassing" against muslims i've heard.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  j.mac on Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:06 pm

    Mamut wrote:
    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    I think me being british may be more of a concern... But I'm just grateful I'm not American Wink

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  macedonian on Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:19 pm

    Mamut wrote:I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    My cousin's best friend in Belgrade in the 90's was a refugee from Sarajevo who went by the name of Musa (Mustafa, was his real name). He never had problems getting close to the ladies too...Smile 
    I have a friend who now curses himself for not going to Belgrade from Pristina on a PhD scholarship because he was told the Serbs might kill him...

    I know I'm not answering your question directly here, I'm merely saying don't let prejudices ruin your dreams.

    Bolan  Very Happy 

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:09 pm

    I think me being british may be more of a concern...
    Today I watched TV show "Lets go eat" ("Poedim poedim") with an english guy travelling all over the world and... well, eating. Seems he made it on the russian TV

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:12 pm

    Regular wrote:
    My father told me stories about Russians making fun from muslims in canteen.
    My father (an ex-officer) told me stories of muslim "elders" teaching ukrainian "young" soldiers how to speak russian in the canteen  Very Happy 

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  j.mac on Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:07 pm

    Asf wrote:
    I think me being british may be more of a concern...
    Today I watched TV show "Lets go eat" ("Poedim poedim") with an english guy travelling all over the world and... well, eating. Seems he made it on the russian TV

    Haha maybe I'll eat stuff for a living! I've seen a few videos/articles on a french and a cuban in the russian military and also read an article on a german in the russian army, kind of gives me hope. The cuban guy was actually in a spetsnaz unit I think or in a reconnaissance unit?

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:06 am

    in a spetsnaz unit I think or in a reconnaissance unit?
    May be both - the army spetsnas is basically a recon force. So called special recon (deep reconnaissance operation for higher command and assymethrical warfare). Sometimes even basic army recon units (say recon coys of motorised infantry regiments) is called "spetsnas" due to journalist's incompetence (as they look badass).

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  j.mac on Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:11 am

    Asf wrote:
    in a spetsnaz unit I think or in a reconnaissance unit?
    May be both - the army spetsnas is basically a recon force. So called special recon (deep reconnaissance operation for higher command and assymethrical warfare). Sometimes even basic army recon units (say recon coys of motorised infantry regiments) is called "spetsnas" due to journalist's incompetence (as they look badass).
    Ah I understand, surely he endured some bullying considering he was not fully russian and he was basically half black? Not sure he seemed happy in the unit though he said it was a dream of his come true

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:43 am

    Look, there are a lot of "half black" people in Russia, and many of them are russians (southern russians have naturally black hear and dark eyes, not to mention cross-national marriage childs). Nobody bulls people in Russia for a skin color except of kryptonazy scum (they numbers are few as with all radicals and who is hated by the most russians). In the Army you can only be bulled if you are unfriendly, behaves youself strange or annoying, do not do you job, or just weak and scared (as always there are men who like to bully weaklings). For example there is a dislike for Moskow-born soldiers in the Army as they are considered too lazy and too proud of themselves for no reason, and they are not "half-black". I tell now about conscripts, for contract soldiers there are many differences, as they are not teenagers, yet you still won't be respected for being unfriendly or cowardly.

    One more time - there were no major race discrimination in the russian history, no slavery (as you know it), no genocide campaigns. Some people could hate other races, but it only thier stupidity. Russians don't like americans as they are viewed cowardly and mistrustful, and there is some tention toward migrants from the former asian republics as they sometime do not appreciate russian culture, live in closed societies and speak among themselves on their national language (it seems a bit uncomfortable for many people then a group of foreiners walk on a street and speak language you can't understand, it's natural). And many of them commit crimes now, as all migrants do - because of unemployment or just because not all of them are honest people. I hope you understand that I am talking about

    And actually people in Russia like cubans. I worked with one guy who is a son of a cuban living in Russia

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Regular on Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:25 pm

    oh but there is racism in Moscow. That city have special kinds of idiots. I personally dislike moscow and muscovites. But don't worry, they rarely serve in the army as there is not much money to be made there.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  VladimirSahin on Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:25 pm

    The worst that can happen to you if you volunteer and join the Russian army as a Muslim is if you eat pork by accident.

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