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    Hazing in the Russian Army

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    victor7

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  victor7 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:51 am

    Not Off Topic..........Go figure!

    Well, here is an answer...........


    Position of Authority........implementation of rule
    Denial of Authority......persistence of denial......persistence......persistence
    Threatening external factor plays in
    Backing off

    Reverse hazing in a sense. Many Russian conscripts arrive and do not like to follow rules. Then seniors have to push to implement them and this at times goes too far and takes form of abuse, injuring assaults, mental and physical trauma, exploitation etc. etc. If the higher authorities take interest and SEVERELY punish the offenders then soon examples and stories will spread around and there will be good rule following by both the sides...............WITH ONE STROKE OF THE PEN!!!!!!!!

    gloriousfatherland

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:59 am

    victor7 wrote:Not Off Topic..........Go figure!

    Well, here is an answer...........


    Position of Authority........implementation of rule
    Denial of Authority......persistence of denial......persistence......persistence
    Threatening external factor plays in
    Backing off

    Reverse hazing in a sense. Many Russian conscripts arrive and do not like to follow rules. Then seniors have to push to implement them and this at times goes too far and takes form of abuse, injuring assaults, mental and physical trauma, exploitation etc. etc. If the higher authorities take interest and SEVERELY punish the offenders then soon examples and stories will spread around and there will be good rule following by both the sides...............WITH ONE STROKE OF THE PEN!!!!!!!!

    I have never been to a Russian Army based so therefore I cant comment. What about you have you seen/experience this first hand my friend?

    victor7

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  victor7 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:10 am

    No Russian army for me either, thank goodness, waste of time any ways........mostly.

    Contract based army is what is needed. Things working in that direction it seems.......finally!

    gloriousfatherland

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:44 am

    victor7 wrote:No Russian army for me either, thank goodness, waste of time any ways........mostly.

    Contract based army is what is needed. Things working in that direction it seems.......finally!

    I agree with you. Contract army would be very efficient,lean, ready and mobile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:51 am

    Why do you think defending your country is a waste of time?

    And why do you think a contract army will solve the problems of hazing?

    Hazing only happens in the Russian Army and only by conscripts against other conscripts...

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gBm1cTPpHJGHEAbu4uFKTJb07boA?docId=06838253b2cb44eca2809ab2d71ce38a

    Prosecutors get evidence in alleged hazing death

    Hmmm, this isn't Russia, members of a college football band aren't conscripts...

    Or perhaps

    http://www.ranker.com/list/the-14-most-brutal-college-hazing-rituals/ariel-kana

    The US College scene... really!!! it couldn't be possible that all those CEOs of high powered US companies and US government who pretty much all went to college have been Hazed and still managed to survive and perform their roles in society!!!

    But I guess we can trust western media about hazing problems in the Russian military because they are so clued up about everything else to do with Russia...

    I did a search on Google for Hazing and of the top ten responses about 3 were dictionary definitions and most of the rest were regarding students at schools and universities. There was one that was military related and is was a US military link.

    http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=407&sid=2801619

    Following some highly-publicized hazing-related deaths and injuries in the nation's armed services, some members of Congress are pressing the military to do more to end a culture that they say allows servicemembers to be mistreated by their colleagues.

    Uniformed officials told lawmakers they are moving aggressively to stamp out the problem, and that they've already made "night-and-day" headway compared with the practices that permeated the military a generation ago.

    But hang on... the US Marine corps is not a conscript army is it?

    Let me repeat Hazing is a problem anywhere groups of young people (men and/or women) are put together in groups.

    It has nothing to do with being Russian, and it has nothing to do with conscription.

    Changing to a contract army will not effect hazing as such, it is something that needs specific attention just like corruption, which is also not a Russian thing, nor is it a conscript thing.

    SWAT Pointman

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    Hazing in the Russian army?

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:21 am

    Is there anything being done to stop the hazing problem in the Russian military?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:30 am

    Hazing is an English word, which suggests there is a problem in the west too.

    The problem with hazing is that it is tradition and honour.

    It is often a ritual of initiation and membership... complain and you are no longer part of the group.

    Makes it tough to deal with.

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:12 pm

    It's a problem that happens every military, but it appears that it's a major problem in the Russian military. They can't modernize their military with this problem. It's not simply just getting a few punches to the chest or humilatiated, Russian serviceman have died and have faced permanent life altering injuries.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:50 am

    Look up the wiki page on Hazing and you will see it is a problem everywhere.

    Do you think the French military have a law against hazing for fun, or do you think they have it because it got out of hand and the military could not contain it?

    The wiki page has a history section on extreme hazing and there is only one entry for the Russian Army, which is not to say it is not a problem... obviously it is.

    The problem is like discipline and abuse with children... where do you draw the line?

    There is clear abuse... a cigarette burn on the arm is abuse and not discipline, but when it comes to so called spanking what is acceptable and what is not?

    One could say US treatment of non US prisoners equates to torture... how can you condemn hazing and not condemn torture.

    The hazing example on Wiki for the Russian serviceman relates to a Russian soldier who was forced into a squat position for 3 hours while getting kicked and beaten resulting in the requirement to amputate his legs and genitals... absolutely terrible stuff. But then I have read about a US doctor who had to amputate the arms of a young Afghan farmer because that farmer had opposed the local war lord and the war lord had had him hung in a stress position the CIA had taught him for torturing prisoners. The problem was they didn't warn him that doing it for more than half an hour or so leads to gangrene and the necessity to amputate the limbs.
    A poor illiterate farmer in a third world country with no arms is a burden to his family... after the operation he ran away and did not return home. Based on what he said before he left it is believed he probably killed himself.


    Mamut

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    Dedovshina in Russian Army

    Post  Mamut on Wed May 28, 2014 11:36 pm

    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw

    Is this what I can expect if I enlist for Russian Armed Forces?

    Little more about Dedovshina:

    Dedovshchina (Russian: дедовщи́на; IPA: [dʲɪdɐˈfɕːinə]; lit. grandfatherism) is the name given to the informal system of subjection of new junior conscripts, formerly to the Soviet Armed Forces and today to the Russian armed forces, Internal Troops, and (to a much lesser extent) FSB border guards, as well as the military forces of certain former Soviet Republics, to brutalization by the conscripts serving their last year of compulsory military service as well as NCOs and officers. Dedovshchina is the Soviet and Russian variety of the US, Canadian, etc. hazing tradition (or the Nonnismo in the Italian Army before its transformation in a volunteer army) involving harsh, unofficial initiation of a person into a military organization.
    Dedovshchina involves a spectrum of subordinating or humiliating activities performed by the junior ranks: from carrying out chores of the senior ranks to violent and sometimes lethal physical and psychological abuse, being not unlike an extremely vicious form of bullying or even torture. It is often cited as a major source of poor morale in the ranks.
    Often with the justification of maintaining authority, physical violence or psychological abuse can be applied to make "youth" to do certain fatigue duties. In many situations, hazing is in fact not the goal. Conscripts with "seniority" exploit their juniors to provide themselves with a more comfortable existence, and the violent aspects arise when juniors refuse to "follow traditions". There have been occasions where soldiers have been seriously injured. In extraordinary situations, there is a lethal outcome.
    he origin of this problem is often attributed to the change in conscription term brought about by the law of October 12, 1967, causing two different groups of conscripts to be simultaneously present in the army: those who were drafted for 3-year service and those only for 2-year service.During the same year, a decision was reached to draft conscripts with a criminal history into the ranks, due to a demographic crisis following World War II. While oppression by older conscripts has probably always taken place in the army, after that date, with the introduction of the four-class system[clarification needed] it became systematic and developed its own rules and ranks.
    Many young men are killed or commit suicide every year because of dedovshchina. The New York Times reported that in 2006 at least 292 Russian soldiers were killed by dedovshchina (although the Russian military only admits that 16 soldiers were directly murdered by acts of dedovshchina and claims that the rest committed suicide). The Times states: "On Aug. 4, it was announced by the chief military prosecutor that there had been 3,500 reports of abuse already this year (2006), compared with 2,798 in 2005". The BBC meanwhile reports that in 2007, 341 soldiers committed suicide, a 15% reduction on the previous year.
    Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia works to protect the rights of young soldiers.
    In 2012, a draftee from Chelyabinsk region, Ruslan Aiderkhanov, was raped and tortured to death by his seniors. The lone witness who testified against the alleged perpetrators, Danil Chalkin, was later found shot dead in his military base. A contract soldier, Alikbek Musabekov was later arrested in this incident.
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    Regular

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Regular on Thu May 29, 2014 2:19 am

    It was discussed 100 times. 
    It's way less harsher these days. You might not experience violence at all. Reason for that is shorter conscription time, more control and less interaction with people who are finishing their service.  
    Well there are still problems with Contract soldiers and conscripts, but afaik they are being kept away.
    What You see in the video is piece of shit mentality that is becoming in the past in Russia. 
    It still happens, but it more subtle ways, still if You can't fight for Yourself You are gonner not only in army.
    Questions?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  sepheronx on Thu May 29, 2014 7:23 am

    Where the heck is Flaming Python? He is wasting his time with the idiots at MP.net

    He would know, since he served in the Russian military.

    Asf

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Asf on Thu May 29, 2014 8:12 am

    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw
    This video is as old as a dinosaur dung.

    First thing, dedovshina isn't what is shown in a video. It's some kind of a brutal hazing and a reason to fire officers and send soldiers to disciplinary battalions. Dedovshina was a simple way for some offcers to install a discipline without much of an efford (as deds did much job for themselves). It growed high after the fall of the Union, as discipline among officers was low due to low payments, training fundings was low, ect.

    Actually such things could happen if many testosterone-filled aggressive men is locked up in an enclosed space with no actual work to be done, that why there are legends about stupid hard manual work in the Army.
    I was in the Army in the mid 2008, it was hear Pskov, VDV contract soldiers from a near unit was kept in barracks all the time and they were going crazy. They infiltrated our unit's camp one night, conflicted our starshina and put one of our demonstration tents on fire, next time hi-jacked one of thier BTR-Ds and drived it to a town for booze. After that the 080808 war begun, and they were redeployed to the Caucasus. I think it was the reason why they were kept on high alert for that long, military intelligence didn't know the exact time of the georgian intervention
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    TR1

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 29, 2014 9:18 am

    Asf wrote:
    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw
    This video is as old as a dinosaur dung.

    First thing, dedovshina isn't what is shown in a video. It's some kind of a brutal hazing and a reason to fire officers and send soldiers to disciplinary battalions. Dedovshina was a simple way for some offcers to install a discipline without much of an efford (as deds did much job for themselves). It growed high after the fall of the Union, as discipline among officers was low due to low payments, training fundings was low, ect.

    Actually such things could happen if many testosterone-filled aggressive men is locked up in an enclosed space with no actual work to be done, that why there are legends about stupid hard manual work in the Army.
    I was in the Army in the mid 2008, it was hear Pskov, VDV contract soldiers from a near unit was kept in barracks all the time and they were going crazy. They infiltrated our unit's camp one night, conflicted our starshina and put one of our demonstration tents on fire, next time hi-jacked one of thier BTR-Ds and drived it to a town for booze. After that the 080808 war begun, and they were redeployed to the Caucasus. I think it was the reason why they were kept on high alert for that long, military intelligence didn't know the exact time of the georgian intervention

    Jesus. Jacking BTR-Ds should be ground for serious disciplinary action.

    Asf

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Asf on Thu May 29, 2014 9:57 am

    It was most likely. Military vehicle hi-jacking is a criminal offence
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    GarryB

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 30, 2014 8:49 am

    It was most likely. Military vehicle hi-jacking is a criminal offence

    Damn... so if I want an old BRDM-2 to trash round in... I have to work out some way to get them to give me one?

    Asf

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Asf on Fri May 30, 2014 9:24 am

    so if I want an old BRDM-2 to trash round in
    It's actually possible. MoD sells old equipment (with weapons dismounted of course), it counts as a non-military vehicle legally. Not all vehicle type can be bought but BRDM-2 could - it's popular among strikeball players and thrill-seekers, so there are companies providing BRDMs as a taxi, for example  Smile I saw a video about it some time ago. Personally, I'd like a T-80 tank for myself. Or atleast a MT-LB for trophies  Smile  Riding in a MT-LB is a brutal expirience I can tell you: it's dark, stuffy and noisy inside. And the whole thing is vibrating as hell. Riding in a T-80 is much more comfortable


    Last edited by Asf on Fri May 30, 2014 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total

    Mamut

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Mamut on Fri May 30, 2014 9:28 am

    So would foreigners in the Russian Military be subjected to Dedovschina? Smile

    Asf

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Asf on Fri May 30, 2014 9:45 am

    So would foreigners in the Russian Military be subjected to Dedovschina?
    Contractor soldiers isn't a subject for dedovshina, it's a nearly extinct conscript soldiers only tradition.

    If you want to hear scary things:
    - you can have your bonuses cut or be fired from service at all;
    - you can be beaten in secret by you mates for being a jerk;
    - you can be sent to a disciplinary battalion on a military court's decision for a crime against military service (like ignoring an order, ect) or be sent to ordinary prison for a general crime;
    - you can be shot down by an officer in case of desertion or treachery at the face of an enemy or in an emergency situation.
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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Regular on Fri May 30, 2014 7:07 pm

    Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    Mamut

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Mamut on Sat May 31, 2014 1:41 pm

    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:56 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Where the heck is Flaming Python?  He is wasting his time with the idiots at MP.net

    He would know, since he served in the Russian military.

    Na, I've just been so focussed on that Ukraine thread that I've barely peeked out it and browsed the rest of the forum.

    Anyway, I think Asf has pretty much nailed everything anyway, nothing more to add

    TR1 wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    I've come upon this clip on YouTube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfreaxSDZw
    This video is as old as a dinosaur dung.

    First thing, dedovshina isn't what is shown in a video. It's some kind of a brutal hazing and a reason to fire officers and send soldiers to disciplinary battalions. Dedovshina was a simple way for some offcers to install a discipline without much of an efford (as deds did much job for themselves). It growed high after the fall of the Union, as discipline among officers was low due to low payments, training fundings was low, ect.

    Actually such things could happen if many testosterone-filled aggressive men is locked up in an enclosed space with no actual work to be done, that why there are legends about stupid hard manual work in the Army.
    I was in the Army in the mid 2008, it was hear Pskov, VDV contract soldiers from a near unit was kept in barracks all the time and they were going crazy. They infiltrated our unit's camp one night, conflicted our starshina and put one of our demonstration tents on fire, next time hi-jacked one of thier BTR-Ds and drived it to a town for booze. After that the 080808 war begun, and they were redeployed to the Caucasus. I think it was the reason why they were kept on high alert for that long, military intelligence didn't know the exact time of the georgian intervention

    Jesus. Jacking BTR-Ds should be ground for serious disciplinary action.

    Oh believe me some crazy shit goes down. All our officers and NCOs walked around with unloaded Makarovs. Remember hearing that part of the reason was something that happened a few years back with the vice-commander firing his one off in a rage or something.
    Probably a good thing too, I remember an NCO 'breaching' our guardhouse with pistol drawn as a prank against one of the contractors inside. Well he fumbled and dropped the damn thing before he even got inside; I watched the whole episode.

    We had an all-terrain armoured-ish vehicle (looked a bit like an MT-LB but different) in our unit that some of the contractors took for a spin sometimes for fishing trips but that's different of course.

    But really 95% of the crazyness is behind us; serious discipline started getting enforced starting from about 2008-2009.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:03 pm

    Mamut wrote:
    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    The only thing you have to be paranoid about in that sense is the pork on the dinner menu.
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    Regular

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  Regular on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:47 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Mamut wrote:
    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    The only thing you have to be paranoid about in that sense is the pork on the dinner menu.
    My father told me stories about Russians making fun from muslims in canteen. Soldiers used part of their uniform to form pig ear and make pig sounds when eating Very Happy Only worked with salabons, muslims who were dedi could eat a pig and wouldn't give a eff Very Happy apart from that, that was the only "harassing" against muslims i've heard.

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    Re: Hazing in the Russian Army

    Post  j.mac on Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:06 pm

    Mamut wrote:
    Regular wrote:Dedovschna in my unit was less severe then freshman day in uni. Hanging from two story bed, staying on legs of taburetka, matchsticks being lit between toes when asleep. Beats you being covered in eggs and flour in unit:D

    I would really want to serve in the Russian Armed Forces, but, me being a Bosnian (?), being a Muslim... makes me paranoid and afraid in a sense...

    I think me being british may be more of a concern... But I'm just grateful I'm not American Wink

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