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    Hazing in the Army

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    solo.13mmfmj
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  solo.13mmfmj on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:28 am

    I am sure the Soviet soldiers crossing into eastern european territory on their way to crush the Germans were a little shocked at the luxury that Europeans enjoyed. I remember reading about one lad whom I think was from the Ukraine who came from a small village where the kitchen floor in his house was dirt and he came upon farms in Poland where the milking sheds has asphalt floors and he openly said to those fighting along side him his disgust that these people went East to take from the Soviet Union.
    Poland was invaded by the soviet union.

    and without carpet bombing cities like the civilised west, the Germans still managed to murder 20 million Soviet civilians on the Eastern front in less than four years of occupation
    Stalin's orders help this to.

    Do you even understand what hazing is? It is a tradition or ritual that newbies must go through to gain acceptance.
    The truth is that Russia is not known for thrithing is allies well.


    GarryB
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:57 am

    Poland was invaded by the soviet union.

    Actually Poland invaded the Soviet Union first... in 1921.

    Stalin's orders help this to.

    Stalins orders certainly did not help, but the Germans entered the Soviet Union knowing there would be no accountability for actions in that country... they acted like animals.

    The truth is that Russia is not known for thrithing is allies well.

    Obviously you have a closer perspective than I do, but even after 50 years of abuse most of Eastern Europe had a higher living standard than most of the Soviet Union, so it rings a little hollow to suggest the Russians are somehow to blame for everything.

    When those who claim to be prisoners and complain about their time behind bars lived better than the people they blame for their captivity without once suggesting their own countrymen might have to take some of the blame... let alone the entire west that happily surrounded the Soviets and politically and economically imposed an isolation to "keep them down".

    From my observations it was people in Eastern Europe that ran eastern europe and that the average Russian is no more to blame for the treatment or actions of the Soviet Union than any other citizen in the east.

    medo
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  medo on Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:41 pm

    Russia was three times attacked by large invasion from Western Europe. First large attack was in mid ages in crusades and the leading force were Teutonic knights and were defeated by Alexander Nevsky. Second large attack was under emperor Napoleon, the leading force was French army and the third large invasion was under Hitler and leading force was German army.

    TR1
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  TR1 on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:23 pm

    solo.13mmfmj wrote:
    Stalin's orders help this to.




    The hell kind of whitewashing of German crimes is this?


    Mr.Kalishnikov47
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:03 am

    Guys no offense but these arguments are silly. This entire thread seems to have been filled with nothing but hate. I'm sure I'm not the only American who was offended by some of these comments, and I'm equally sure there were plenty of Russians offended by some of the other comments (looking at you victor7). This thread wasn't made to flame each other, it was made to discuss hazing in the Russian army, so can we please calm it down? No flame please pale

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:00 am

    Good post, worthy of a vote Mr.Kalishnikov47.

    Hazing exists, and where it is harmless tradition it should be left.

    Where it exists and it is bullying or even theft like commanders demanding subordinates hand their bonus pay to them then it needs to be exposed and dealt with.

    The talk of forming a military police will be useful, and I personally think that the various religious soldiers (ie chaplains) should become a resource to ensure the well being of all soldiers is looked after.

    The critical thing is that those that speak out get a proper hearing and are not used as scapegoats... or suffer from speaking out as that will silence other potential cases which will lead to the problems being ignored and the situation get worse and make the outcome much more negative. Suicides and shooting rampages just two examples...

    victor7
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  victor7 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:42 am

    Hazing is bad for the morale and unity of any squad or team even in civilian set up. In Russian Army hazing is waaaaaay beyond the initial introduction ritual of the new recruits.

    Cleaning boots of a comrade who is tight on time is an act of team work. However, cleaning boots every single day is outright abuse. Junior or new recruit is there to become a soldier not become a butler of some barely senior soldier.


    There is a world of difference in following orders at work and becoming somebody's servant even after the work hours are done with for the day.

    If in military the hazing cannot be stopped with ONE stroke of pen, then something really wrong with that military and its culture.


    victor7
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  victor7 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:50 am

    Stalins orders certainly did not help, but the Germans entered the Soviet Union knowing there would be no accountability for actions in that country... they acted like animals.

    On the advance, Germans killed Jews and Communists. On the retreat, Germans just killed anyone who they came across. Nazis had told them that Russians/Slavics were sub-humans, a breed which is a mix between nordics and asians.

    However, have also heard of many stories where Russian POWs were sent to jail after return from Germany's camps. They asked the reason and were told "you have seen too much of good life in the west, and we do not want you to tell those high stories to common suffering Russians...........treated like slaves under communism".

    Communism preached Godlessness and hence it was EVIL and had to fail.

    Russia only has a periodic track record... up till about 1917 and then it restarts in the 1990s and during those periods I would say their behaviour was rather better than the wests by a wide margin.

    Russian soul was crushed to the ground under communism. It will all not go away in one day, might take few decades. Russians are much more humanistic than the west, no doubt.


    Last edited by victor7 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:02 am; edited 1 time in total

    victor7
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  victor7 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:57 am

    Not sure where all this anti Russian rhetoric crap is coming from and it doesn't bother me that you think such things, but I would be careful if I were you, because RT and of course Vlad are both Russian and might not take so kindly to your comments.

    I have my ways of dealing with problems........i.e. go straight to the root of it all. If hazing and corruption are problems in the Russian Army then these are a bad traits and should be accepted as wrong and won/corrected over. Hiding and indirectly condoning these problems will only make them more severe.



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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:11 pm

    victor7 wrote:
    Not sure where all this anti Russian rhetoric crap is coming from and it doesn't bother me that you think such things, but I would be careful if I were you, because RT and of course Vlad are both Russian and might not take so kindly to your comments.

    I have my ways of dealing with problems........i.e. go straight to the root of it all. If hazing and corruption are problems in the Russian Army then these are a bad traits and should be accepted as wrong and won/corrected over. Hiding and indirectly condoning these problems will only make them more severe.



    Well trust me , your not making a good attempt and making people uncomfortable: Why does Stalin have to do with hazing? Where does Communism fit with hazing in the modern Russian army? Sure there were always rats that stole, but its people not the system.

    I would curfew your rhetoric, if I were you Victor, to more a tolerant tone. First you started about China and India in other thread , now blame the system and Russians on everything

    I would suggest living in Russia India and China to get a first hand perspective...

    Sincerely, RP

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:41 am

    Victor... Hazing is a WESTERN TERM.

    Do you think the Russians invented such things?

    Hazing exists in schools and universities, factories and offices. Some of it is even part of the wedding ritual like making the groom drink from a yard glass at his stag night for instance.

    Hazing is not the problem. Bullying, abuse, and violence is the issue... how exactly are you going to stop that?

    And if you can while you are at it stop alcoholism and gambling addiction and of course prevent murder and perhaps even death itself?

    Tradition and ritual are a Human thing, not a western or eastern, or northern or southern thing.

    Abuse is bad for morale but tradition is good for morale and comradery.

    Cleaning boots of a comrade who is tight on time is an act of team work. However, cleaning boots every single day is outright abuse. Junior or new recruit is there to become a soldier not become a butler of some barely senior soldier.

    A new recruit needs to learn how to clean boots properly, by giving them the extra boots to clean they get extra practise. A more senior soldier already knows how to clean his boots so doing them himself is a waste of his time.. Smile

    Besides harden up. It didn't kill the senior soldiers, and what use is a soldier that cannot follow a simple instruction without whining?

    There is a world of difference in following orders at work and becoming somebody's servant even after the work hours are done with for the day.

    There is a world of difference between extra cleaning duties and abuse. When on kitchen duty should the new recruit only peal spuds for his own needs too? A new recruit needs to become part of the unit, part of a team.

    If in military the hazing cannot be stopped with ONE stroke of pen, then something really wrong with that military and its culture.

    So one stroke of a pen to say all religion is banned and all religion would cease to exist? I think you are being very naive... if that were possible then ban famine, ban suffering and ban violence and do it 10,000 years ago.

    On the advance, Germans killed Jews and Communists. On the retreat, Germans just killed anyone who they came across. Nazis had told them that Russians/Slavics were sub-humans, a breed which is a mix between nordics and asians.

    Rubbish, the Nazis killed civilians from the start, entire villages disappeared at a time, butt his has little to do with Hazing.

    However, have also heard of many stories where Russian POWs were sent to jail after return from Germany's camps.

    Soviets in German captivity were rarely fed and generally worked to death, of the 5.5 million prisoners known to be taken back to Germany as slave labour rather less than 2 million returned and of course there would be questions as to how they managed to survive when so many others did not.

    They asked the reason and were told "you have seen too much of good life in the west, and we do not want you to tell those high stories to common suffering Russians...........treated like slaves under communism".

    They all asked the same question? And all got the Same answer? Sounds like Western propaganda to me.

    Communism preached Godlessness and hence it was EVIL and had to fail.

    Communism is athiest so religious concepts like good and evil do not apply. The west condemns the religious nature of democracy in Iran yet ignores the religious influence in their own systems of government. On paper the west claims to aim for and achieve a separation of church and state, yet it is only in communist countries that has been achieved.

    Russian soul was crushed to the ground under communism.

    Hahahahahaha, what do you, or I for that matter know of the Russian soul?

    It will all not go away in one day, might take few decades. Russians are much more humanistic than the west, no doubt.

    They went from a dictatorial monarchy where most of the people were little more than peasants and had no freedom of movement and in many ways were the slaves of the landowners whose land they worked, to a system of communism that got them a house and a job and free education and free health, which might not have been world standard but it was more than they got under the Tsars.

    You can say that the rich and powerful shifted from the land owners to the political heirarchy and that the situation for the average peasant didn't chance much, to which I would say that things were little different in the west... 1% with power and land a middle class who work hard for a life that might be described as comfortable if hectic, and the lower class who work as hard as anyone else in the middle class but earn rather less and struggle in life hoping not to get sick...

    I have my ways of dealing with problems........i.e. go straight to the root of it all. If hazing and corruption are problems in the Russian Army then these are a bad traits and should be accepted as wrong and won/corrected over. Hiding and indirectly condoning these problems will only make them more severe.

    Most hazing incidents are based on very long lived traditions, it is serious in only a few units which have other problems like a bad mix of nationalities where normally harmless rituals become a thing of abuse.

    We are not going to solve the issues here, but it is important to talk about it and not ignore it like most western countries do.

    I would suggest living in Russia India and China to get a first hand perspective...

    Or perhaps much easier, talk to people who live in India and Russia and ask them questions... make sure they are not loaded questions... If I see a question like "Why is country X a lost cause" there will be trouble...

    The alternative is that you have come here to tell Russians and Indians what Russia and Indias problems are and their only solution is to become more like the perfect infallible west.

    If the latter is the case expect to be ignored and ridiculed.


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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:22 am

    Anyone see the connection between Hazing and Neonazism? there have been a significant rise of Neo nazi phenomenon across europe and russia contains about half of the worlds neo nazi gangs. It seems that history classes are poor in russia , and the death of 20 million slavs were useless, as uneducated youths get taken up into this crap....hazing is prensent in all gangs. If these guys make it into the army, which most likely would occur as they are of the lower class and cannot "pay" or "seek higher education" which prevents them from armed service.Im just questioning???

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    Hazing

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:32 am

    Do not confuse neo nazisn,hazing and the rise of anti semitism in Europe.One factor leading to the latter is the steep rise of Euro-muslims.President Sarkozy hinted that there are too many immigrants and a serious redressing of the issue is necessary to preserve European culture but was hoping that the recent shootings were neo nazi related so as to escape the wrath of French islam.Hazing is a ritualized tradition whereby an individual earns status and recognition as a group member.It may not be right,but it is a human condition.The varying forms can be relatively mild to offensive,stupid and cruel and unless you live in the climate of such activity your own ethnocentric biases do not give you a right to comment.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:19 am

    The problem of Hazing is perhaps worse in the west because everyone ignores it and pretends it doesn't happen.

    A man goes out and kills innocent people...

    Do it in Afghanistan and you are a loving caring family man who was having some problems blah blah blah.

    Do it in France and you are an evil terrorist that should never have been allowed into the country and lets change the immigration laws because after flooding the whole planet with French and European blood you suddenly think immigration is a bad thing and something must be done...

    I am surprised the BBC don't do a documentary about how Russian hazing is evil and proof that the half asians are uncivilised, while when the same or worse happens in the US or UK military it was a lone incident by a rogue element and it is being dealt with (ie swept under the carpet).

    Sadly it is the age we live in.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  victor7 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:30 pm



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xvxljuUj2g

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:39 am

    victor7 wrote:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xvxljuUj2g
    Off Topic

    victor7
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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  victor7 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:51 am

    Not Off Topic..........Go figure!

    Well, here is an answer...........


    Position of Authority........implementation of rule
    Denial of Authority......persistence of denial......persistence......persistence
    Threatening external factor plays in
    Backing off

    Reverse hazing in a sense. Many Russian conscripts arrive and do not like to follow rules. Then seniors have to push to implement them and this at times goes too far and takes form of abuse, injuring assaults, mental and physical trauma, exploitation etc. etc. If the higher authorities take interest and SEVERELY punish the offenders then soon examples and stories will spread around and there will be good rule following by both the sides...............WITH ONE STROKE OF THE PEN!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:59 am

    victor7 wrote:Not Off Topic..........Go figure!

    Well, here is an answer...........


    Position of Authority........implementation of rule
    Denial of Authority......persistence of denial......persistence......persistence
    Threatening external factor plays in
    Backing off

    Reverse hazing in a sense. Many Russian conscripts arrive and do not like to follow rules. Then seniors have to push to implement them and this at times goes too far and takes form of abuse, injuring assaults, mental and physical trauma, exploitation etc. etc. If the higher authorities take interest and SEVERELY punish the offenders then soon examples and stories will spread around and there will be good rule following by both the sides...............WITH ONE STROKE OF THE PEN!!!!!!!!

    I have never been to a Russian Army based so therefore I cant comment. What about you have you seen/experience this first hand my friend?

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  victor7 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:10 am

    No Russian army for me either, thank goodness, waste of time any ways........mostly.

    Contract based army is what is needed. Things working in that direction it seems.......finally!

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:44 am

    victor7 wrote:No Russian army for me either, thank goodness, waste of time any ways........mostly.

    Contract based army is what is needed. Things working in that direction it seems.......finally!

    I agree with you. Contract army would be very efficient,lean, ready and mobile

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:51 am

    Why do you think defending your country is a waste of time?

    And why do you think a contract army will solve the problems of hazing?

    Hazing only happens in the Russian Army and only by conscripts against other conscripts...

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gBm1cTPpHJGHEAbu4uFKTJb07boA?docId=06838253b2cb44eca2809ab2d71ce38a

    Prosecutors get evidence in alleged hazing death

    Hmmm, this isn't Russia, members of a college football band aren't conscripts...

    Or perhaps

    http://www.ranker.com/list/the-14-most-brutal-college-hazing-rituals/ariel-kana

    The US College scene... really!!! it couldn't be possible that all those CEOs of high powered US companies and US government who pretty much all went to college have been Hazed and still managed to survive and perform their roles in society!!!

    But I guess we can trust western media about hazing problems in the Russian military because they are so clued up about everything else to do with Russia...

    I did a search on Google for Hazing and of the top ten responses about 3 were dictionary definitions and most of the rest were regarding students at schools and universities. There was one that was military related and is was a US military link.

    http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=407&sid=2801619

    Following some highly-publicized hazing-related deaths and injuries in the nation's armed services, some members of Congress are pressing the military to do more to end a culture that they say allows servicemembers to be mistreated by their colleagues.

    Uniformed officials told lawmakers they are moving aggressively to stamp out the problem, and that they've already made "night-and-day" headway compared with the practices that permeated the military a generation ago.

    But hang on... the US Marine corps is not a conscript army is it?

    Let me repeat Hazing is a problem anywhere groups of young people (men and/or women) are put together in groups.

    It has nothing to do with being Russian, and it has nothing to do with conscription.

    Changing to a contract army will not effect hazing as such, it is something that needs specific attention just like corruption, which is also not a Russian thing, nor is it a conscript thing.

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    Hazing in the Russian army?

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:21 am

    Is there anything being done to stop the hazing problem in the Russian military?

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:30 am

    Hazing is an English word, which suggests there is a problem in the west too.

    The problem with hazing is that it is tradition and honour.

    It is often a ritual of initiation and membership... complain and you are no longer part of the group.

    Makes it tough to deal with.


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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:12 pm

    It's a problem that happens every military, but it appears that it's a major problem in the Russian military. They can't modernize their military with this problem. It's not simply just getting a few punches to the chest or humilatiated, Russian serviceman have died and have faced permanent life altering injuries.

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    Re: Hazing in the Army

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:50 am

    Look up the wiki page on Hazing and you will see it is a problem everywhere.

    Do you think the French military have a law against hazing for fun, or do you think they have it because it got out of hand and the military could not contain it?

    The wiki page has a history section on extreme hazing and there is only one entry for the Russian Army, which is not to say it is not a problem... obviously it is.

    The problem is like discipline and abuse with children... where do you draw the line?

    There is clear abuse... a cigarette burn on the arm is abuse and not discipline, but when it comes to so called spanking what is acceptable and what is not?

    One could say US treatment of non US prisoners equates to torture... how can you condemn hazing and not condemn torture.

    The hazing example on Wiki for the Russian serviceman relates to a Russian soldier who was forced into a squat position for 3 hours while getting kicked and beaten resulting in the requirement to amputate his legs and genitals... absolutely terrible stuff. But then I have read about a US doctor who had to amputate the arms of a young Afghan farmer because that farmer had opposed the local war lord and the war lord had had him hung in a stress position the CIA had taught him for torturing prisoners. The problem was they didn't warn him that doing it for more than half an hour or so leads to gangrene and the necessity to amputate the limbs.
    A poor illiterate farmer in a third world country with no arms is a burden to his family... after the operation he ran away and did not return home. Based on what he said before he left it is believed he probably killed himself.



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