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    T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

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    0nillie0

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:40 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Thanks for the great info. I presume the 2.5 million rubles cost for T-72B3M is the cost of the actual upgrade if you already have a T-72 needing the upgrade and not for actually buying a T-72B3M. Seems like it could be a great tank for countries who can't afford to purchase T-90. I am surprised that Iraq did go for that option. I wouldn't be surprised when Syria is finally secure that the SAA will secure a loan from Russia to obtain T-72B3M

    Russian T-72B3 and B3M are mostly converted from T-72B tanks in reserve. Some of these tanks already had upgrades installed, so the kit was only partially applied. This explains the small price tag of 2.5 million, and it also explains why this is not such a good option for example for Iraq.

    Iraq has only low number of T-72's in service nowadays, when compared to the 90's. Many have been destroyed in the wars.  And these tanks that remain in service are mostly T-72M export models, some of which where "improved" locally. T-72M is inferior to Russian T-72B in every way. Especially in terms of basic armor protection. The platform is not suitable for such an extensive upgrade as B3 or B3M. Many Former Soviet countries in Europe have tried a similar approach, but most of these projects are mediocre at best, and are purely a stop-gap solution.

    To fill in a larger requirement of tanks, Iraq would have to order a large number of T-72B tanks from wherever they are available, and then furthermore upgrade these to new standards for an additional cost. It simply makes more sense for them to purchase newly built tanks off the production line, with better support for spare parts etc.  T-90S is a very successful export product, and imho a good choice for Iraq. The good performance of T-90A in Syria war certainly helped.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that prices may vary greatly per unit, depending on other contracts such as spare parts, technical support and option of additional orders etc.
    External factors such as economic partnerships and other deals may also contribute.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:57 pm

    They could of course just buy T-72B3M direct from Russia without having to hunt for T-72 Russia has 1,000's of them in storage. And yes of course prices may vary greatly per unit, depending on other contracts such as spare parts, technical support and option of additional orders .External factors such as economic partnerships etc I was just looking for rough pricing.

    But Iraq hasn't really got the cash to splash. Especially that they will have to rebuild after the war
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    George1

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:38 pm

    Upgraded tanks T-72B3 with additional protection on the excersize "West-2017"











    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2851126.html


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:10 pm

    This could have equally been posted in T-90 thread but felt it better here. Here's a bit of good/bad news depending how you view it.
    T-90 taken out by T-72. Good news showing that the T-72 is still capable at destroying modern tanks.

    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/article/breaking-al-qaeda-t-90-blown-tank-battle-syrian-army-t-72-north-hama/

    hoom

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:41 am

    Apparently APFSDS hit into the hull side of T90, I don't think anyone would really expect any tank hull side to withstand that.


    Russia/Syria apparently got intelligence of upcoming attack & redeployed some elite troops to the area who stood their ground & stopped the attack dead.
    Also apparently a local tribe that had signed up to deconfliction helped defend some Russian Military Police that had been recently deployed to man a checkpoint in nearby nominally Rebel area.

    Edit: also noteworthy both those T90s have been disabled/knocked out twice without popping their turrets.
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    BM-21

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  BM-21 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:43 am

    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171019/1507152218.html

    The relevant part:

    The Russian Defense Ministry will receive T-72B3 tanks ahead of schedule, modernized as part of a large contract with the Uralvagonzavod Research and Production Corporation, a source in the defense-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "We can say that the execution of the contract is completed, the last batch of T-72B3 tanks will be transferred to the troops even earlier than planned, which will happen in the coming month," the source said.
    Previously, the media had already reported the receipt of state orders for the upgrade of 150 T-72B tanks to the level of T-72B3 for more than 2.5 billion rubles, and 17 million rubles were planned to be invested in each tank. Modernized tanks enter the troops in batches.

    If I understand correctly the T-72B3 modernisation program is coming to an end? This is probably done in order to transfer resources towards modernising the T-80 and T-90.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:37 am

    Wasn't it switched to the B4 modernization, which recently started?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:59 am

    BM-21 wrote:
    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171019/1507152218.html

    The relevant part:

    The Russian Defense Ministry will receive T-72B3 tanks ahead of schedule, modernized as part of a large contract with the Uralvagonzavod Research and Production Corporation, a source in the defense-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "We can say that the execution of the contract is completed, the last batch of T-72B3 tanks will be transferred to the troops even earlier than planned, which will happen in the coming month," the source said.
    Previously, the media had already reported the receipt of state orders for the upgrade of 150 T-72B tanks to the level of T-72B3 for more than 2.5 billion rubles, and 17 million rubles were planned to be invested in each tank. Modernized tanks enter the troops in batches.

    If I understand correctly the T-72B3 modernisation program is coming to an end? This is probably done in order to transfer resources towards modernising the T-80 and T-90.

    Russia has thousands of tanks. Thousands more that will not be getting decomissioned due to growing threat from NATO. So they will end up modernizing more while slowly purchasing ARMATA in attempts not trying to spend too much.
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    BM-21

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  BM-21 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:47 am

    Russia has thousands of tanks. Thousands more that will not be getting decomissioned due to growing threat from NATO. So they will end up modernizing more while slowly purchasing ARMATA in attempts not trying to spend too much.

    Understood. I'm wondering whether this article is hinting that the modernisation program of bringing T-72Bs to T-72B3 standard is coming to an end. Was hoping that they would modernise about 2000 T-72 to that standard. I think that they are eager to start modernising the T-80 and T-90. So if they are already talking about delivering the last batch of T-72B3s, what comes after that keeping in mind that they still have thousands of relatively obsolete T-72 models?

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    BM-21

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  BM-21 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:50 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Wasn't it switched to the B4 modernization, which recently started?

    I think so although some still refer to it as the T-72B3 Mod. 2016.
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    GarryB

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:06 am

    The modernisations tend to happen at once so they are unlikely to stop one to start other ones.

    Modernisations continue for the operational life of all vehicles so for as long as they are in service they will continue to get new systems and weapons and ammo etc.


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    franco

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:43 pm

    BM-21 wrote:
    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171019/1507152218.html

    The relevant part:

    The Russian Defense Ministry will receive T-72B3 tanks ahead of schedule, modernized as part of a large contract with the Uralvagonzavod Research and Production Corporation, a source in the defense-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "We can say that the execution of the contract is completed, the last batch of T-72B3 tanks will be transferred to the troops even earlier than planned, which will happen in the coming month," the source said.
    Previously, the media had already reported the receipt of state orders for the upgrade of 150 T-72B tanks to the level of T-72B3 for more than 2.5 billion rubles, and 17 million rubles were planned to be invested in each tank. Modernized tanks enter the troops in batches.

    If I understand correctly the T-72B3 modernisation program is coming to an end? This is probably done in order to transfer resources towards modernising the T-80 and T-90.

    Or it could mean that the present contract is finished.
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    Isos

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:12 pm

    CIA report that shows the T-72 as better than M60.


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    Interlinked

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:16 pm

    Isos wrote:CIA report that shows the T-72 as better than M60.

    From the same document:



    The T-54/55 has a 10-15% qualitative advantage over the M48, the T-62 has a 30% advantage over the M48, the T-62 has a 5-10% advantage over the M60A1, and the T-64/T-72 has a 15-40% advantage over the M60A1.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:23 pm

    It's such a shame that the T-72B3 modernization didn't replace Kontakt-5 with Relikt, or add it on the tanks that didn't have Kontakt-5 before modernization. It would have been a big improvement in protection with practically no drawbacks.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:23 pm

    Interlinked wrote:It's such a shame that the T-72B3 modernization didn't replace Kontakt-5 with Relikt, or add it on the tanks that didn't have Kontakt-5 before modernization. It would have been a big improvement in protection with practically no drawbacks.

    this again? We already went through this. Its been replaced by Relict. They use same casing.
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    Interlinked

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:25 am

    Yes, it has already been discussed, and it's a shame that they didn't replace Kontakt-5 with Relikt. If it uses the same casing then it's not Relikt. Kontakt-5 doesn't become Kontakt-1 if you replace the 4S22 elements with 4S20, and it doesn't become Relikt if you put 4S23 in there. They are completely different things.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:10 pm

    Why no apliuqe armor? especially on the lower plate? It can't be that difficult to bolt on a few extra layers of composite armor look at T-62M so why no additional armor?
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:32 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Why no apliuqe armor? especially on the lower plate? It can't be that difficult to bolt on a few extra layers of composite armor look at T-62M so why no additional armor?

    The lower plate is fine as it is. It's not hit often in combat anyway, so it doesn't matter very much. The biggest problem is the huge unprotected areas on either side of the driver's periscope, the incredibly vulnerable turret ring area and the gaps between the panels on the turret. The Relikt package doesn't increase the turret ring protection by much, but at least it adds panels to cover the area on either side of the driver's periscope and has no gaps between the turret panels. At the moment, if any opposing tank were to aim at the center mass of a T-72B3, the shot has an unsettlingly high likelihood of not hitting any of the Kontakt-5 panels on the turret and hull.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:42 pm

    Interlinked wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:Why no apliuqe armor? especially on the lower plate? It can't be that difficult to bolt on a few extra layers of composite armor look at T-62M so why no additional armor?

    The lower plate is fine as it is. It's not hit often in combat anyway, so it doesn't matter very much. The biggest problem is the huge unprotected areas on either side of the driver's periscope, the incredibly vulnerable turret ring area and the gaps between the panels on the turret. The Relikt package doesn't increase the turret ring protection by much, but at least it adds panels to cover the area on either side of the driver's periscope and has no gaps between the turret panels. At the moment, if any opposing tank were to aim at the center mass of a T-72B3, the shot has an unsettlingly high likelihood of not hitting any of the Kontakt-5 panels on the turret and hull.

    It doesent get hit often is no excuse to have a weakspot all unnecesary weakspots should be eliminated fro Russias tanks.

    Could someone please explain why having a large section with no composite armor is an advantage?

    Upper front plate is less important sine it already has composite armor but that is still no ecuse to slack on ERA.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:14 pm

    Its relikt not kontact 5
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:54 am

    Well, sure, call it Relikt if you want, but that doesn't mean that it is worth the same amount of protection offered by Relikt. It is upgraded Kontakt-5, but it is not Relikt. The differences between Kontakt-5 and Relikt are not that small.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:01 am

    I just explained to you why that part of the armour exists. You can't afford to make every part of the tank invulnerable to all existing weapons on the planet. The lower glacis is thick enough to resist most 105mm APDS rounds, so it's good enough. The sides need that extra armour much more than the lower glacis.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:06 am

    Interlinked wrote:I just explained to you why that part of the armour exists. You can't afford to make every part of the tank invulnerable to all existing weapons on the planet. The lower glacis is thick enough to resist most 105mm APDS rounds, so it's good enough. The sides need that extra armour much more than the lower glacis.

    Last time I checked it was not strong enough to resist 90mm guns is that just a lie?

    80mm of armor is not allot.
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    Interlinked

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:17 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    Last time I checked it was not strong enough to resist 90mm guns is that just a lie?

    80mm of armor is not allot.

    First of all, behind half of the lower glacis is the upper glacis composite armour, so the part of the lower glacis with only 80mm of armour plate only starts around halfway down, where the dozer blade begins. The diagram you posted shows this (it's for a T-64 and not a T-72, and it does not show the dozer blade). Secondly, it's not just 80mm, but 80mm sloped at 61 degrees + extra ~1cm of armour from the dozer blade. It's not a lot compared to the upper glacis, but it should still be enough for L28 or M392 APDS at 1.5-2.0 km and above. Later 105mm APDS with tungsten alloy tilting caps and high core elongation can defeat this part of the tank easily at such ranges, but even so, the likelihood of hitting this part of the tank is really quite low.



    The weakest part of the lower glacis is the area between the orange line and the yellow line. The upper glacis array is behind the lower glacis plate in the area between the red line and the orange line.

    In case it's not clear enough for you, take a look at this photo:





    See that section of the armour there? That's where the 80mm front plate of the upper glacis joins to the lower glacis. Under that is 105mm of glass textolite, and under that is another 20mm of steel. I would say that it's good enough, especially considering that the tank only weighs around 41 tons.


    Last edited by Interlinked on Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:49 am; edited 3 times in total

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