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    T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

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    franco

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  franco on Tue May 16, 2017 12:25 pm

    And the timing for these deliveries following the May parade in which the latest version of the T72B3 was paraded. It is all but guaranteed that those tanks are in this delivery. On the other hand, believe OnillieO has a point in that there may not be much of a difference (to warrant a M designation) and all the others will receive the further upgrades.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue May 16, 2017 4:22 pm

    0nillie0 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    franco wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    franco wrote:Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215

    Article says B3 not B3M.

    You may be right. Another article on them described them as the modernized T-72B3. Which I may be incorrectly assuming to mean the B3M version.

    with modules of dynamic protection "Relic" hinged lattice screens as well as new modules dynamic protection in a soft case.

    This gives me indication it is B3M.

    I think that in a years time, the distinction between B3 and B3M could pretty much be moot.
    The desired elements from the B3M upgrade can be handpicked for application on any B3 tank. Some tanks will only feature the new side skirts, while others will be upgraded with only the SLAT armor.
    Other tanks will have the full kit installed, including the new side modules, which can simply replace the storage boxes on the default B3. This all will depend on specific regional and operational requirements, and availability of parts.

    It would have made more sense to me, to simply integrate these upgrades as part of the B3 upgrade kit, rather than use "B3M" terminology, as this was previously already used for the upgraded version with the independent commanders panoramic sight. It made more sense here as there was significant modification of the turret, crew stations and operating doctrine trough the addition of the second sight. In fact, this is the only part that has been missing in every picture that i have seen, yet keeps getting mentioned.

    The new "B3M" seems to feature mostly bolt on or bolt off parts and modules, which could be be applied to any B3 tank (including the installing of the improved ERA elements inside the modules to replace Kontakt 5) without serious downtime or adjustments in internal components such as FCS.

    I would imagine that most of the B3's in the West are planned to be upgraded with Relikt anyway.

    Now if they start adding panoramic sights, then i can understand the distinction between B3 and B3M more. But so far, i have not seen a single picture of it combined with the other upgrades displayed on the parade B3M's.

    T-72B3M have panoramic sights...you can see it on the top hatch the lens is just covered to protect it no doubt since unless the sights are active you cover them this is a standard rule.
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    0nillie0

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue May 16, 2017 6:27 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    T-72B3M have panoramic sights...you can see it on the top hatch the lens is just covered to protect it no doubt since unless the sights are active you cover them this is a standard rule.

    I think you missed the part where i distinguished between the T-72B3M which entered service in 2014-2015, and the recently showcased T-72B3M which was seen in the victory parade and other recent photo's.

    The 2014-2015 "T-72B3M" :

    This has the panoramic sight installed, but obviously lacks the upgrades of the newer model.

    The 2017 "T-72B3M" :


    This is the version that is entering service now. It has been seen both at the victory parade, as well as in transport to enter service. Not all tanks apear to have been equipped with the full kit, as we have seen tanks in transport which only have the new sideskirts and slat armor installed, but lack the new ERA modules on the side of the turret and front of the hull.

    This version clearly also lacks a panoramic sight, yet it also reffered to by various people here, as well as official sources as "T-72B3M".
    Note that NONE of the new batch of vehicles that i personally have seen so far have been equipped with a panoramic sight. Perhaps i missed it.
    Sites like Sputnik have said that it is suppose to also feature the sight of the 2015 version, but like i said, it seems to be missing from the kit currently being fielded.

    It could off course be a retrofit that will be implemented later on, as it requires additional modification of the actual turret and additional equipment inside the commander station, where as the 2017 kit is mostly bolt on, with many elements that possibly could be installed even in field conditions.
    Hence the confusion, and what we have been talking about all this time.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue May 16, 2017 7:12 pm

    0nillie0 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    T-72B3M have panoramic sights...you can see it on the top hatch the lens is just covered to protect it no doubt since unless the sights are active you cover them this is a standard rule.

    I think you missed the part where i distinguished between the T-72B3M which entered service in 2014-2015, and the recently showcased T-72B3M which was seen in the victory parade and other recent photo's.

    The 2014-2015 "T-72B3M" :

    This has the panoramic sight installed, but obviously lacks the upgrades of the newer model.

    The 2017 "T-72B3M" :


    This is the version that is entering service now. It has been seen both at the victory parade, as well as in transport to enter service. Not all tanks apear to have been equipped with the full kit, as we have seen tanks in transport which only have the new sideskirts and slat armor installed, but lack the new ERA modules on the side of the turret and front of the hull.

    This version clearly also lacks a panoramic sight, yet it also reffered to by various people here, as well as official sources as "T-72B3M".
    Note that NONE of the new batch of vehicles that i personally have seen so far have been equipped with a panoramic sight. Perhaps i missed it.
    Sites like Sputnik have said that it is suppose to also feature the sight of the 2015 version, but like i said, it seems to be missing from the kit currently being fielded.

    It could off course be a retrofit that will be implemented later on, as it requires additional modification of the actual turret and additional equipment inside the commander station, where as the 2017 kit is mostly bolt on, with many elements that possibly could be installed even in field conditions.
    Hence the confusion, and what we have been talking about all this time.

    You can see the mount, T-72BSM's are equipped with sights.

    That said the parade tanks where brand new meaning they just came off the line they still have to attach things like the sights.

    Russia has a nice habit of parading unfinished tanks, Armata, T-14 etc.

    you are over analyzing this by extremes.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 16, 2017 7:53 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    0nillie0 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    T-72B3M have panoramic sights...you can see it on the top hatch the lens is just covered to protect it no doubt since unless the sights are active you cover them this is a standard rule.

    I think you missed the part where i distinguished between the T-72B3M which entered service in 2014-2015, and the recently showcased T-72B3M which was seen in the victory parade and other recent photo's.

    The 2014-2015 "T-72B3M" :

    This has the panoramic sight installed, but obviously lacks the upgrades of the newer model.

    The 2017 "T-72B3M" :


    This is the version that is entering service now. It has been seen both at the victory parade, as well as in transport to enter service. Not all tanks apear to have been equipped with the full kit, as we have seen tanks in transport which only have the new sideskirts and slat armor installed, but lack the new ERA modules on the side of the turret and front of the hull.

    This version clearly also lacks a panoramic sight, yet it also reffered to by various people here, as well as official sources as "T-72B3M".
    Note that NONE of the new batch of vehicles that i personally have seen so far have been equipped with a panoramic sight. Perhaps i missed it.
    Sites like Sputnik have said that it is suppose to also feature the sight of the 2015 version, but like i said, it seems to be missing from the kit currently being fielded.

    It could off course be a retrofit that will be implemented later on, as it requires additional modification of the actual turret and additional equipment inside the commander station, where as the 2017 kit is mostly bolt on, with many elements that possibly could be installed even in field conditions.
    Hence the confusion, and what we have been talking about all this time.

    You can see the mount, T-72BSM's are equipped with sights.

    That said the parade tanks where brand new meaning they just came off the line they still have to attach things like the sights.

    Russia has a nice habit of parading unfinished tanks, Armata, T-14 etc.

    you are over analyzing this by extremes.

    No, the announcer at the V-day parade was quite clear that those were T-72B3s not the B3M/B4s, i checked the footage myself and they did not have the Independent commander sight.

    Unfinished and going through finalization are 2 different things.
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    0nillie0

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed May 17, 2017 10:56 am

    "Two dozen modernized tanks T-72B3 entered the arsenal of motorized infantry 1st Panzer Army"



    https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/864438035215040512/photo/1

    Note that the Russian MOD refers to these tanks as just "T-72B3".

    Also : take a look at the picture below taken from the Armata Thread :
    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/4182855/4182855_original.jpg

    Where the mount for the panoramic sight is supposed to be, there is nothing but an ERA tile. So IMHO at least this batch of new tanks will not have panoramic sight.
    And i believe this trend will continue untill we see "T-72B4" enter service in the future, which will use more components of Armata, with T-72B3M as a low rate production intermediate platform, perhaps reserved for battlefield command role or specific units.
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    Cheetah

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Cheetah on Thu May 18, 2017 5:59 am

    Bumped into this while doing the rounds.

    Syria and Israel to participate in International Army Games for first time

    Syria, South Africa, Israel, Uzbekistan, Fiji, Uganda and Laos will for the first time participate in the International Army Games, the organizing committee said while holding a conference with the foreign military attaches from 32 countries on Wednesday.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/946347

    http://tass.com/defense/946347

    Could we see a Merkava MK4 in tank biathlon?
    If so, it would be interesting to see how it goes against the T-72B3
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    George1

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  George1 on Mon May 22, 2017 2:23 pm

    Belorussian modernization of the T-72 tank



    On May 8-22, 2017, the 8th international exhibition of arms and military equipment MILEX-2017, Belarusian companies Beltechexport, OJSC 140 repair plant (Borisov) and OJSC Peleng (Minsk), held in Minsk (Belorussia) from May 20 to May 22, 2017, Presented a modernized tank T-72BME, which is the result of a "deep modernization" of the T-72 tanks.

    In the press release of the exhibition it is reported that the main essence of the T-72BME tank modernization is the installation of a new sighting complex with a thermal imaging sight, reinforcement of armor protection by an effective combination of monolithic and combined armored protection with additional installation of dynamic protection and anti-cumulative screens, increased mobility by installing more A powerful engine, as well as autonomy in the conduct of ambushes and defensive actions by using a built-in autonomous power source.

    The main distinguishing elements of the T-72BME tank are:
    Installation of the integrated control system "ESSA-72U", including a multi-channel thermal imaging sight, ballistic computer, television indicators and a backup sight of the tank commander, which ensures effective destruction of enemy targets at maximum range in all weather conditions day and night;

    Installation of a set of sensors (a wind sensor, a gun position sensor, an atmospheric pressure sensor, roll and pitch sensors, a gun position sensor), which significantly reduced the aiming time on the target to improve the accuracy of firing from the spot and in motion;

    Ensuring the possibility of conducting fire by all types of 125-mm rounds, including modern tank guided missiles;

    Installation of the "Contact-1" type of dynamic protection [and also protective screen grids];

    Installation of the 902B "Cloud" system with eight launchers;

    Installation of the V-84MS engine with 840 hp;

    Installation of a digital VHF radio station of the last generation BARRETT-2082 +;

    Installation of a modern infrared or thermal imager of the driver;

    Installation of an autonomous diesel power source to ensure operation of the main tank systems in the defense and save the life of the main engine.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2621919.html


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    Book.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Book. on Mon May 22, 2017 7:46 pm

    T-72, T-90 Helmet-Mounted Display (HMD).

    See thru armor. Full 3D view.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Book. on Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:54 am

    Sosna-U: Fire Control system in a T-72B3

    These photos are rather interesting because they show the “insides” of T-72B3, the upgraded version used by the Russian Army. Large numbers have been acquired in recent years and they were used in the Ukraine conflict. The main improvement is the Sosna-U FCS (Fire control system), which has a thermal sight. The first image shows another T-72 as seen by the thermal camera. The second image shows a screen for the driver.

    The third image shows the parameters included in the FCS. In previous versions many of these were not included. Now they are calculated automatically. The first 5 are:

    - Temperature of propellant.
    - Temperature of air
    - Atmospheric pressure.
    - Wind speed.
    - Lateral inclination.

    Here: http://alejandro-8en.blogspot.com/2017/06/sosna-u-fire-control-system-in-t-72b3.html





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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Book. on Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:10 pm

    T-72 BME 2017:






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    AlfaT8

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:23 am

    Book. wrote:T-72 BME 2017:




    Not too shabby, surprised that there using Kontakt-1 i would expect K-5 to be used nowadays, but other than that looks like a good buy.
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    0nillie0

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

    T-72B3 with panoramic commander sight spotted during fire exercise in Kaliningrad region last week.
    Possibly replacing T-72B1K in command role ?



    We can see in the video however still some T-72B1 or T-72B1K being operated.
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    George1

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:12 pm

    "Uralvagonzavod" delivered the next batch of upgraded T-72B3 tanks with additional protection

    JSC "Scientific Production Corporation" Uralvagonzavod "(part of the State Corporation Rostek) reported on July 27, 2017 that, within the framework of the State Defense Order of 2017, the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation delivered to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation a batch of armored demining vehicles BMR-3MA and a batch of T-72B3 tanks with additional Protection. This was reported to the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Sergey Shoigu at the National Defense Management Center of the Russian Federation by Vyacheslav Khalitov, Deputy General Director for Special Equipment of the Scientific Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod JSC on the same day of acceptance.



    The special equipment manufactured and delivered to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation passed all the qualification tests in accordance with the requirements of normative and technical documentation and with the terms of the state contract.

    In the corporation UVZ stress that the timely manufacture and supply of special purpose vehicles within the framework of the State Defense Order is among the priority tasks for the solution of which Uralvagonzavod is actively re-equipping, modern technologies are being introduced.

    The armored demining vehicles BMR-3MA, transferred to the military units of the Russian Federation, are designed on the basis of the T-90 tank and are designed to clear the ways of moving columns of military equipment. They are equipped with a new continuous mine tank trawl, a new climate unit, modern digital communications. To protect the crew, modern composite materials are used. BMR-3MA was first made for the RF Ministry of Defense in the framework of the GOZ.

    T-72B3 with additional protection, delivered within the framework of the execution of the State Defense Committee of 2017, is able to effectively resist the best samples of the main battle tanks. Modernization touched a number of machine systems, including fire control systems. The work was also carried out to automate the processes of control and control of the power plant: a controller for controlling the chassis systems was introduced to help the driver mechanic, the parameters of the actions of which are displayed on a special display. The tank T-72B3 received an effective all-attack protection. It makes it possible to significantly increase its survivability and efficiency both in conducting combined arms combat, and in the course of combat operations with the massive use of anti-tank weapons.

    Work on the modernization of equipment in the UVZ Corporation continues. So, as one of the directions for achieving greater invulnerability of the T-72B3 tank is the installation of the Arena-E active protection complex, which allows to detect incoming anti-tank weapons and significantly weaken their action, or completely destroy them with a specially designed defensive ammunition.

    Already today the car has proved itself well. Thanks to the high technical characteristics of the T-72B3, its unique reliability, the Russian team has repeatedly won well-deserved victories at the Army International Games "Tank Biathlon".

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2754368.html


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:03 pm

    Does anyone know the approximate cost of:
    T-72 B3M
    T-90
    T-90S/MS

    And the major differences between them.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:05 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Does anyone know the approximate cost of:
    T-72 B3M
    T-90
    T-90S/MS

    And the major differences between them.

    During 2016, i believe the cost of T-72B3M upgrade was estimated at 2.5 million rubles, though it is probably more, and will vary depending on the level of the upgrade.
    Cost of T-90 varies between different sources, and also between different models as original T-90 entered service in the 90's where as T-90A entered service in 2005.
    Uganda bought a number of T-90S variant for 3.4 million USD per unit in 2010. Soon there will be 2 new contracts with Vietnam & Iraq, so current price should be clear then.

    True cost per unit of T-90MS is harder to tell, as there are no finalized contracts at this time. Possible contract with India will not reflect true price as India will likely produce many elements indigenous.
    It is sometimes quoted as costing aprox. 5.1 million dollars per unit, but i think that it would likely be less expensive today, given the advancement in technology and production.  

    There are many differences between the 2 basic designs (T-72 & T-90), and there is plenty of resources about this to find on the internet. A lot of info to type out.
    A good summation imho would be :

    T-72 B3M : Based on Object 172M design from early 70's. Has undergone many upgrades and redesigns since then. "B3M" is the latest version and has all the features of modern battle tank, including modern fire control system with multi-channel electro-optical sensors for Gunner, auto-tracking, high power to weight engine, improved suspension and latest version of 2A46 125mm cannon, capable of firing modern munitions and gun launched ATGM's. Optional upgrades include the latest Russian explosive reactive armor and composite armor modules + slat armor, Active protection system, improved radio and comms,  independent panoramic sight for commander, GLONASS etc. In short : its on par with the most modern tanks of the world, but because it is based on old tank design, much of the upgrades are "bolt on". It does not have the ideal layout of components and crew compartment compared to a tank that would be designed at present day. The most important feature of this tank is that its battle proven and very reliable, and because it has been in service for so long, there are many experienced crews who are familiar with the "limitations" of the design. Also, depending on mission requirement and intensity of conflict, the tank can be basically tailored to fit the specific needs. Components can be added or left off as required.

    T-90 is based on Object 188 developed in late 80's. It is based on T-72, but at that time it used much improved defensive features such as improved reactive armor with better coverage, and better protected turret with composite armor.
    Its most distinguishing feature is the Shtora-1 countermeasure suite, which includes infra red dazzlers and a computerized self protection system. Overall, combat capabilities of the T-90A are probably slightly inferior to T-72B3M due to the older equipment used (sensors, electro optics etc.) , though the design took lessons from the T-72, and the improved armor layout means that it can be considered to be better protected. This has been proven in combat recently in Syria, where T-90 has been almost invulnerable**.

    T-90MS is a thorough modernization of T-90A. Crew compartment layout and crew equipment such as controls, diagnostics and screens are brought to modern standard. Shtora-1 is removed, and can be replaced optionally by more modern active protection system. Protection is improved with new ERA and passive modules, and slat armor. Commander receives his own stabilized panoramic sight with multi-spectrum optic sensors and remote controlled machine gun. A more powerful engine is installed to compensate for added weight. Most importantly, the FCS is further upgraded and modernized, and a removable turret bustle is added to the back of turret, which is probably the most significant upgrade in terms of crew protection. All modern features such as GLONASS/inertial navigation and the latest encrypted communication systems are integrated. T-90MS is arguably the most advanced MBT Russia can offer to the market ( not counting Armata).

    T-72 B3M is a cost effective and very capable upgrade for an old tank, of which there are 1000s in Russian inventory.
    T-90MS is an impressive upgrade, but there are not that many T-90s in service (when compared to T-72), and for each T-90MS you can have multiple T-72B3M. I hope it enters service with Russia tho !
    T-90A : No longer in production. New contracts are beeing signed for T-90S variant, so it is still has a long life as export product ahead !

    Hope this was useful !

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:36 pm

    Thanks for the great info. I presume the 2.5 million rubles cost for T-72B3M is the cost of the actual upgrade if you already have a T-72 needing the upgrade and not for actually buying a T-72B3M. Seems like it could be a great tank for countries who can't afford to purchase T-90. I am surprised that Iraq did go for that option. I wouldn't be surprised when Syria is finally secure that the SAA will secure a loan from Russia to obtain T-72B3M
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:40 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Thanks for the great info. I presume the 2.5 million rubles cost for T-72B3M is the cost of the actual upgrade if you already have a T-72 needing the upgrade and not for actually buying a T-72B3M. Seems like it could be a great tank for countries who can't afford to purchase T-90. I am surprised that Iraq did go for that option. I wouldn't be surprised when Syria is finally secure that the SAA will secure a loan from Russia to obtain T-72B3M

    Russian T-72B3 and B3M are mostly converted from T-72B tanks in reserve. Some of these tanks already had upgrades installed, so the kit was only partially applied. This explains the small price tag of 2.5 million, and it also explains why this is not such a good option for example for Iraq.

    Iraq has only low number of T-72's in service nowadays, when compared to the 90's. Many have been destroyed in the wars.  And these tanks that remain in service are mostly T-72M export models, some of which where "improved" locally. T-72M is inferior to Russian T-72B in every way. Especially in terms of basic armor protection. The platform is not suitable for such an extensive upgrade as B3 or B3M. Many Former Soviet countries in Europe have tried a similar approach, but most of these projects are mediocre at best, and are purely a stop-gap solution.

    To fill in a larger requirement of tanks, Iraq would have to order a large number of T-72B tanks from wherever they are available, and then furthermore upgrade these to new standards for an additional cost. It simply makes more sense for them to purchase newly built tanks off the production line, with better support for spare parts etc.  T-90S is a very successful export product, and imho a good choice for Iraq. The good performance of T-90A in Syria war certainly helped.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that prices may vary greatly per unit, depending on other contracts such as spare parts, technical support and option of additional orders etc.
    External factors such as economic partnerships and other deals may also contribute.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:57 pm

    They could of course just buy T-72B3M direct from Russia without having to hunt for T-72 Russia has 1,000's of them in storage. And yes of course prices may vary greatly per unit, depending on other contracts such as spare parts, technical support and option of additional orders .External factors such as economic partnerships etc I was just looking for rough pricing.

    But Iraq hasn't really got the cash to splash. Especially that they will have to rebuild after the war

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