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    T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

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    miketheterrible
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:49 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:On VPk.name, there was a lot of complaining about this tank. Essentially, because it is still using kontact 5 ERA instead if Relict. The main complaint behind that is that Kontact 5 is obsolete compared to Relict and that it costs about 75M rubles per tank while new T-90MS was slated at around 130M rubles per tank, which has Relict ERA.

    I understand the complaint. Why have they not added Relict?

    It does have Relikt. Front ERA has the 2S23 explosive element.

    https://vpk.name/news/178591_modernizirovannyii_t72b3_razocharoval.html

    These guys don't think so. I guess the way the placement of ERA, is that it is strikingly similar to Kontact 5 while Reflects on T-90 looks different.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:41 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:On VPk.name, there was a lot of complaining about this tank. Essentially, because it is still using kontact 5 ERA instead if Relict. The main complaint behind that is that Kontact 5 is obsolete compared to Relict and that it costs about 75M rubles per tank while new T-90MS was slated at around 130M rubles per tank, which has Relict ERA.

    I understand the complaint. Why have they not added Relict?

    It does have Relikt. Front ERA  has the 2S23 explosive element.

    https://vpk.name/news/178591_modernizirovannyii_t72b3_razocharoval.html

    These guys don't think so. I guess the way the placement of ERA, is that it is strikingly similar to Kontact 5 while Reflects on T-90 looks different.

    It was supposed to use Relikt from what i am aware.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:18 am

    It seems it has Relikt armour only at the rear of the turret.

    The sideskirts also look similar to the ones on the T-90AM...it also has some other improvements

    From its previous versions, this T-72 modification differs in many ways. First of all it has an enhanced protection system.

    The engine-transmission compartment and rear part of the tower are covered with anti-cumulative screen grids and additional blocks of dynamic protection called Relict.

    Moreover, the T-72B3M is equipped with a 1130 horsepower diesel engine. It also has an automated control system that informs the driver of any tank malfunctions.

    The improved model also has a new radio station, panoramic target viewer and an automatic target tracking device.

    If that isn’t enough, the new tank also boasts strengthened mine protection technology and an automatic loader has been modified for the newest ammunition.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201704061052370925-russian-modified-tank/
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  hoom on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:21 pm

    Wasn't it supposed to be getting the T-90MS style panoramic commander sight/machinegun?
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:43 pm

    hoom wrote:Wasn't it supposed to be getting the T-90MS style panoramic commander sight/machinegun?

    It would make more sense to equip it with the PK PAN panoramic sight used for the T-72B3M upgrade imho.



    Perhaps it is already part of the planned upgrade package, just not integrated with the current batch as of yet.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  hoom on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:52 am

    Aren't these T-72B3M?
    Whatever they are there doesn't appear to be any Commander panoramic sight.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:47 am

    hoom wrote:Aren't these T-72B3M?
    Whatever they are there doesn't appear to be any Commander panoramic sight.

    Indeed, some sources refer to these up-armored T-72's as "T-72B3M" (including Sputnik). Though the lack of a panoramic sight, which was an essential part of the B3M upgrade package seems to contradict this.
    Note that some sources include the panoramic sight as a feature of the upgrade, though as you pointed out it is obviously missing here.

    I have seen other sources refer to them as T-72BZ. This is basically the name given to the export version showcased first in 2013 afaik. It should include the latest version of Shtora, which appears to be missing here.

    In conclusion, i think this is more of a universal upgrade package for specific missions, rather than a new T-72 variant that requires its own designation. Elements of the package can be omitted depending on the equipment already present.
    As i read, the new armor is pretty much a simple bolt on with the relikt at the rear replacing tool boxes etc.

    Having said that, in the future the package might very well include the panoramic sight (and probably a simplified version of the entire FCS) of the T-14, once the  required subsystems are being produced in large numbers.
    As a stop gap measure, i think an additional batch of tanks should be equipped with the PK PAN sight.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  volna on Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:54 am

    0nillie0 wrote:
    hoom wrote:Wasn't it supposed to be getting the T-90MS style panoramic commander sight/machinegun?

    It would make more sense to equip it with the PK PAN panoramic sight used for the T-72B3M upgrade imho.

    This sight looks different from the one on T-90MS,are they the same sight?
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:32 pm

    volna wrote:
    0nillie0 wrote:
    hoom wrote:Wasn't it supposed to be getting the T-90MS style panoramic commander sight/machinegun?

    It would make more sense to equip it with the PK PAN panoramic sight used for the T-72B3M upgrade imho.

    This sight looks different from the one on T-90MS,are they the same sight?

    From what i can recall, the PK PAN sight is the original configuration as part of the "Redut" upgrade package offered by KBP for Soviet legacy battle tanks such as the T-72 and T-62. It was also offered for export BMP-3. It was designed to be more cost effective for export market. As far as i know, the export version by default does not contain a thermal imaging camera, but only a day channel camera and laser range finder. It is the commander sight used for the BMPT's operated by kazakhstan, and possibly also the T-72B3M tanks. AFAIK, the domestic version also lacks a thermal imaging channel, but maybe this has since been upgraded.

    The sight has also been marketed as "Hawkeye", and seems to have gradually evolved to the variant that can be seen currently in the T-90MS and later on the T-14. Main difference is the housing and the integration of thermal imaging camera by default. Also, the sight requires some modification due to the integration of the 7.62mm machine gun at the back.

    So in conclusion, the "PK PAN" is basically a simplified version of the T-90MS panoramic sight. A stop gap solution that gives the commander of T-72 his own stabilized sight with the ability to input data in the FCS, but for thermal image he still requires to access the picture of the main gunner sight. This actually makes sense if you remember that the most common tank in service, the T-72B3 uses the same system for giving thermal image to the commander.

    Even without thermal, it is still a significant upgrade for awareness for the tank crew (though not so much at night or in poor visibility). But for the different type tanks that is T-14 and T-90MS, it only makes sense to give the commander a thermal channel of his own.

    Forgive me if i posted wrong info, but this is from my memory.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:24 am

    Apparently it does have Relict armour everywhere  after all.... 4S23 element on front according to the below document

    Arrow http://uploads.ru/N04CP.png
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:28 am

    I guess the placement of the armor is just more crude than how it is done on T-90A
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:49 am

    George1 wrote:



    Yeah that took them a while (focus on the rear parts). The older -B3 seemed quite dated from the get-go, with late 80s setup and lots of unprotected arcs. This one is more streamlined to bare minimum protection for new/upgraded MBTs, especially given the current MBT threats in on-going conflicts (Syria, Ukraine). If only they could afford to bring a few thousand to that level, they might be on to something interesting. If this remains a project for a couple hundred or up to say 500, then it is senseless, as their country needs the numbers on top of the much needed capability.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:58 am

    miketheterrible wrote:I guess the placement of the armor is just more crude than how it is done on T-90A

    They've used the old K-5 outer 'containers'...but apparently the inside elements are from Relict.

    ________

    4S20 - 4S22 - 4S23 - 4S24 elemnts.
    http://uploads.ru/J7Z13.jpg

    ________

    The T-72B3M has the 4S23 and 4S24, the last 2 in the pic although they all look the same

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:54 pm

    How does the t72 b3m /b4 compare with t90 in russian service?
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:11 pm

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:How does the t72 b3m /b4 compare with t90 in russian service?

    As far as i know, there where as on order of 150 tanks of the T-72B3M variant in late 2015 or early 2016. By end of 2017 there should be 1000 T-72B3 tanks in service, versus 150 or so B3M.
    Main difference between the two is that the B3M features an independent fully stabilized panoramic sight for the commander.

    Number of T-90 in active service varies greatly between different sources. I am sure somebody here has exact data on it, but imho there are at least 500 T-90 tanks in active service, probably more.

    In terms of capabilities the T-72B3(M) is quite similar to the T-90. In short : the T-72B3 is upgraded with components (engine, main gun, FCS, ...) which are featured in the T-90A tank to upgrade the capabilities to a similar level.
    The T-90 is a newer design and has the benefit of featuring some improvements : Better coverage of the ERA on the turret, integration of Shtora defense suite by default etc.

    Upgrades on T-72 series are mostly retrofit and therefor not quite as effective, as can be seen for example in the coverage of ERA. But the commonality between both series of tanks makes them equally lethal in the hands of a capable crew.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Isos on Tue May 09, 2017 11:21 pm

    They used lot of techno from armata for the B3

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  galicije83 on Thu May 11, 2017 12:49 pm

    0nillie0 wrote:
    Number of T-90 in active service varies greatly between different sources. I am sure somebody here has exact data on it, but imho there are at least 500 T-90 tanks in active service, probably more.

    Russian army have 165 T-90 produced from 1992-2003 and all this tank are in reserve, also we see them in Syria beside T-90A first series produced from 2004 till 2008 and UVZ produced 146 tanks...from end of 2008 till 2012 we have T-90A second series and UVZ produced 186 of them....More then half of the T-90A from 2004-2008 are still in cervce, rest are in reserve, and also Russia send some of them to Syria number of them is unknown.

    497 T90 all series are produced, this is les then 500 and russia planed to have more then 1400 of them...Because of this we have 1000+ T-72B3s (modernized T-72B) in service. This tank are here to replace T-90As gap in numbers....
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  franco on Thu May 11, 2017 1:33 pm

    galicije83 wrote:
    0nillie0 wrote:
    Number of T-90 in active service varies greatly between different sources. I am sure somebody here has exact data on it, but imho there are at least 500 T-90 tanks in active service, probably more.

    Russian army have 165 T-90 produced from 1992-2003 and all this tank are in reserve, also we see them in Syria beside T-90A first series produced from 2004 till 2008 and UVZ produced 146 tanks...from end of 2008 till 2012 we have T-90A second series and UVZ produced 186 of them....More then half of the T-90A from 2004-2008 are still in cervce, rest are in reserve, and also Russia send some of them to Syria number of them is unknown.

    497 T90 all series are produced, this is les then 500 and russia planed to have more then 1400 of them...Because of this we have 1000+ T-72B3s (modernized T-72B) in service. This tank are here to replace T-90As  gap in numbers....

    And that is a fact Jack. There are presently 6-7 battalions of T-90A's operational in the Army. That represents 246-287 tanks plus some spares and 20-30 in training units. I suspect with the T-72B3M's showing up that the T-72B3 total is or soon will be around 1200 tanks.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  franco on Tue May 16, 2017 12:06 am

    Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 16, 2017 12:46 am

    franco wrote:Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215

    Article says B3 not B3M.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  franco on Tue May 16, 2017 2:14 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    franco wrote:Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215

    Article says B3 not B3M.

    You may be right. Another article on them described them as the modernized T-72B3. Which I may be incorrectly assuming to mean the B3M version.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 16, 2017 8:54 am

    franco wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    franco wrote:Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215

    Article says B3 not B3M.

    You may be right. Another article on them described them as the modernized T-72B3. Which I may be incorrectly assuming to mean the B3M version.

    with modules of dynamic protection "Relic" hinged lattice screens as well as new modules dynamic protection in a soft case.

    This gives me indication it is B3M.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue May 16, 2017 11:39 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    franco wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    franco wrote:Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215

    Article says B3 not B3M.

    You may be right. Another article on them described them as the modernized T-72B3. Which I may be incorrectly assuming to mean the B3M version.

    with modules of dynamic protection "Relic" hinged lattice screens as well as new modules dynamic protection in a soft case.

    This gives me indication it is B3M.

    I think that in a years time, the distinction between B3 and B3M could pretty much be moot.
    The desired elements from the B3M upgrade can be handpicked for application on any B3 tank. Some tanks will only feature the new side skirts, while others will be upgraded with only the SLAT armor.
    Other tanks will have the full kit installed, including the new side modules, which can simply replace the storage boxes on the default B3. This all will depend on specific regional and operational requirements, and availability of parts.

    It would have made more sense to me, to simply integrate these upgrades as part of the B3 upgrade kit, rather than use "B3M" terminology, as this was previously already used for the upgraded version with the independent commanders panoramic sight. It made more sense here as there was significant modification of the turret, crew stations and operating doctrine trough the addition of the second sight. In fact, this is the only part that has been missing in every picture that i have seen, yet keeps getting mentioned.

    The new "B3M" seems to feature mostly bolt on or bolt off parts and modules, which could be be applied to any B3 tank (including the installing of the improved ERA elements inside the modules to replace Kontakt 5) without serious downtime or adjustments in internal components such as FCS.

    I would imagine that most of the B3's in the West are planned to be upgraded with Relikt anyway.

    Now if they start adding panoramic sights, then i can understand the distinction between B3 and B3M more. But so far, i have not seen a single picture of it combined with the other upgrades displayed on the parade B3M's.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  franco on Tue May 16, 2017 12:25 pm

    And the timing for these deliveries following the May parade in which the latest version of the T72B3 was paraded. It is all but guaranteed that those tanks are in this delivery. On the other hand, believe OnillieO has a point in that there may not be much of a difference (to warrant a M designation) and all the others will receive the further upgrades.
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue May 16, 2017 4:22 pm

    0nillie0 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    franco wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    franco wrote:Another 20-24 T-72B3M arrive at an unidentified Division in the 1st Army;

    http://in24.org/world/27215

    Article says B3 not B3M.

    You may be right. Another article on them described them as the modernized T-72B3. Which I may be incorrectly assuming to mean the B3M version.

    with modules of dynamic protection "Relic" hinged lattice screens as well as new modules dynamic protection in a soft case.

    This gives me indication it is B3M.

    I think that in a years time, the distinction between B3 and B3M could pretty much be moot.
    The desired elements from the B3M upgrade can be handpicked for application on any B3 tank. Some tanks will only feature the new side skirts, while others will be upgraded with only the SLAT armor.
    Other tanks will have the full kit installed, including the new side modules, which can simply replace the storage boxes on the default B3. This all will depend on specific regional and operational requirements, and availability of parts.

    It would have made more sense to me, to simply integrate these upgrades as part of the B3 upgrade kit, rather than use "B3M" terminology, as this was previously already used for the upgraded version with the independent commanders panoramic sight. It made more sense here as there was significant modification of the turret, crew stations and operating doctrine trough the addition of the second sight. In fact, this is the only part that has been missing in every picture that i have seen, yet keeps getting mentioned.

    The new "B3M" seems to feature mostly bolt on or bolt off parts and modules, which could be be applied to any B3 tank (including the installing of the improved ERA elements inside the modules to replace Kontakt 5) without serious downtime or adjustments in internal components such as FCS.

    I would imagine that most of the B3's in the West are planned to be upgraded with Relikt anyway.

    Now if they start adding panoramic sights, then i can understand the distinction between B3 and B3M more. But so far, i have not seen a single picture of it combined with the other upgrades displayed on the parade B3M's.

    T-72B3M have panoramic sights...you can see it on the top hatch the lens is just covered to protect it no doubt since unless the sights are active you cover them this is a standard rule.

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