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    T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

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    GarryB
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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:42 pm

    I would've thought T-72B3s would be a priority for Crimea, minimum.

    Such vehicles are only likely to face Ukrainian forces... what does the Ukraine have that would require a better tank?


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    T-72 variants

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:22 pm

    Vympel wrote:
    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5F-TJuKclg#t=37

    Russian T-72Bs arrive in Crimea, while T-64s are being sent back to Ukraine.

    The tanks look immaculate, I suspect these are some of the T-72s kapremont-ed and sent in replacement of retired T-80s.
    Would make sense given the wild numbers of supposedly modernized T-72B3s the media has been throwing around.

    You've got a time-stamp in that link there. What's "kapremont-ed"?

    Its disappointing they're sending basic Kontakt-ERA T-72Bs there - without even Kontakt-V. I would've thought T-72B3s would be a priority for Crimea, minimum.

    EDIT: wait - is Ukraine actually allowing Russia to train in tanks? Or are these going to be shipped across the Kerch strait?

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:18 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I would've thought T-72B3s would be a priority for Crimea, minimum.

    Such vehicles are only likely to face Ukrainian forces... what does the Ukraine have that would require a better tank?

    On some forums they believe these could be a training company to be followed by T-72B3's. Apparently they're expecting to have 200 tanks based in Crimea which seems excessive

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Vympel on Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:01 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Such vehicles are only likely to face Ukrainian forces... what does the Ukraine have that would require a better tank?

    T-72B3s with the thermal imaging sight and all the assorted fire control improvements would give them a decisive advantage over T-64BVs in both day and night. As it is, a hypothetical fight between a T-72B and a T-64BV is virtually a dead heat, performance wise. I'd bet on the training of the Russian tankists over those of Ukraine, but why leave an element to chance?

    It looks like from other videos I've seen on T-72B3s on trains that they're focused on the Ukrainian border proper.



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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:51 am

    Let me put it this way... at the moment Ukraine has just been surprise-"taken advantage of from behind" if you know what I mean.

    If you start picking and choosing where your furniture is going they might get a little upset and do something really stupid.

    Equally things aren't 100% set in concrete... the Ukraine could go all Georgian on Russia, which means having upgraded T-72s to move into the Ukraine and deal with the idiots would be easier from Russian territory than from Crimean territory.

    Eventually a large unit of upgraded T-72s will be needed because it is the Black Sea Fleet basing area so any naval landing forces will need to be based there.

    They wont have Mistrals but they will have other units there, so together with army forces, navy forces, and air force units there will be a lot of new equipment and weapons moving there over the next few years.


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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Vympel on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:53 am

    TR1 wrote:

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

    Ah good. Speaking of upgrades - is the T-72B3 created solely from T-72Bs equipped with Kontakts-5 ERA, or do they take any T-72B, and by the time they're done, its equipped with Kontakts-5?

    (because I know T-72BA tanks with the wind sensor etc could be created from both T-72B w/ Kontakts and T-72B w/ Kontakts-5, but they never upgraded the ERA from Kontakts to Kontakts-5 in that instance)

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:58 pm

    Kontakt-5 is expected to be bare minimum- its been out for two decades ffs.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:57 pm

    Vympel wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

    Ah good. Speaking of upgrades - is the T-72B3 created solely from T-72Bs equipped with Kontakts-5 ERA, or do they take any T-72B, and by the time they're done, its equipped with Kontakts-5?

    (because I know T-72BA tanks with the wind sensor etc could be created from both T-72B w/ Kontakts and T-72B w/ Kontakts-5, but they never upgraded the ERA from Kontakts to Kontakts-5 in that instance)

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:55 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Vympel wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

    Ah good. Speaking of upgrades - is the T-72B3 created solely from T-72Bs equipped with Kontakts-5 ERA, or do they take any T-72B, and by the time they're done, its equipped with Kontakts-5?

    (because I know T-72BA tanks with the wind sensor etc could be created from both T-72B w/ Kontakts and T-72B w/ Kontakts-5, but they never upgraded the ERA from Kontakts to Kontakts-5 in that instance)

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

    Is there any news of new generation ERA for Armata platforms? Will Kurganets have ERA? Also whats the advantage of Relikt and Kaktus over Kontakt 5? I know Kontakt has a proven record; in a joint effort between Germany and America on a tank testing ground in West Germany, Kontakt has proven itself very effective at defeating NATO HEAT and APFSDS rounds of that generation, forcing NATO to redesign their rounds!

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Zivo on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:22 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Vympel wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

    Ah good. Speaking of upgrades - is the T-72B3 created solely from T-72Bs equipped with Kontakts-5 ERA, or do they take any T-72B, and by the time they're done, its equipped with Kontakts-5?

    (because I know T-72BA tanks with the wind sensor etc could be created from both T-72B w/ Kontakts and T-72B w/ Kontakts-5, but they never upgraded the ERA from Kontakts to Kontakts-5 in that instance)

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

    Is there any news of new generation ERA for Armata platforms? Will Kurganets have ERA? Also whats the advantage of Relikt and Kaktus over Kontakt 5? I know Kontakt has a proven record; in a joint effort between Germany and America on a tank testing ground in West Germany, Kontakt has proven itself very effective at defeating NATO HEAT and APFSDS rounds of that generation, forcing NATO to redesign their rounds!

    Armata should use Relikt. IIRC Relikt has multiple layers of explosives and other material sandwiched together to form a large block. Kontakt 5 only has 3 layers, a steel plate on the back, the explosives, than a front steel plate. I believe "Kaktus" is the same thing as Relikt, but is just the name given to the layout of relikt when it's used as integral armor instead of add-on armor as we seen on Object 640.


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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:59 am

    Zivo wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Vympel wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

    Ah good. Speaking of upgrades - is the T-72B3 created solely from T-72Bs equipped with Kontakts-5 ERA, or do they take any T-72B, and by the time they're done, its equipped with Kontakts-5?

    (because I know T-72BA tanks with the wind sensor etc could be created from both T-72B w/ Kontakts and T-72B w/ Kontakts-5, but they never upgraded the ERA from Kontakts to Kontakts-5 in that instance)

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

    Is there any news of new generation ERA for Armata platforms? Will Kurganets have ERA? Also whats the advantage of Relikt and Kaktus over Kontakt 5? I know Kontakt has a proven record; in a joint effort between Germany and America on a tank testing ground in West Germany, Kontakt has proven itself very effective at defeating NATO HEAT and APFSDS rounds of that generation, forcing NATO to redesign their rounds!

    Armata should use Relikt. IIRC Relikt has multiple layers of explosives and other material sandwiched together to form a large block. Kontakt 5 only has 3 layers, a steel plate on the back, the explosives, than a front steel plate. I believe "Kaktus" is the same thing as Relikt, but is just the name given to the layout of relikt when it's used as integral armor instead of add-on armor as we seen on Object 640.


    Relikt's been around for a while - ain't there anything newer in the works?

    And Kaktus I think operates on a different principle than Relikt, I may be wrong though.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:03 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Vympel wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    Kapitalnyi Remont- Capital Repairs- basically a major overhaul on a vehicle that has otherwise expired. By itself it might include no modernization or only small additions.

    Ah good. Speaking of upgrades - is the T-72B3 created solely from T-72Bs equipped with Kontakts-5 ERA, or do they take any T-72B, and by the time they're done, its equipped with Kontakts-5?

    (because I know T-72BA tanks with the wind sensor etc could be created from both T-72B w/ Kontakts and T-72B w/ Kontakts-5, but they never upgraded the ERA from Kontakts to Kontakts-5 in that instance)

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

    Is there any news of new generation ERA for Armata platforms? Will Kurganets have ERA? Also whats the advantage of Relikt and Kaktus over Kontakt 5? I know Kontakt has a proven record; in a joint effort between Germany and America on a tank testing ground in West Germany, Kontakt has proven itself very effective at defeating NATO HEAT and APFSDS rounds of that generation, forcing NATO to redesign their rounds!

    Armata should use Relikt. IIRC Relikt has multiple layers of explosives and other material sandwiched together to form a large block. Kontakt 5 only has 3 layers, a steel plate on the back, the explosives, than a front steel plate. I believe "Kaktus" is the same thing as Relikt, but is just the name given to the layout of relikt when it's used as integral armor instead of add-on armor as we seen on Object 640.


    Relikt's been around for a while - ain't there anything newer in the works?

    And Kaktus I think operates on a different principle than Relikt, I may be wrong though.

    Seems like those 2 existed at least a decade before the armata platforms were even discussed.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Vympel on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:43 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

    That doesn't actually answer my question though, sorry.

    To reiterate - does the T-72B3 upgrade derive solely from T-72B tanks already equipped with Kontakts-V, or do they also take T-72B tanks without Kontakts-V and equip them with it during the upgrade process? Because its clear the T-72B3 only has Kontakts-V, not Relikt.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:28 am

    Vympel wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    Kontakt isn't used since early 80s.

    Kontakt 5 is standard and Kaktus,Relikt are the new ERA's.

    That doesn't actually answer my question though, sorry.

    To reiterate - does the T-72B3 upgrade derive solely from T-72B tanks already equipped with Kontakts-V, or do they also take T-72B tanks without Kontakts-V and equip them with it during the upgrade process? Because its clear the T-72B3 only has Kontakts-V, not Relikt.

    The russian tank designation actually tells if it has kontakt (ERA) or not, T-72B no ERA, T-72BV (V = Vzriv which means Explosion), even tho in the common soldiers and common people like us we do not use always this exact russian designation, for example there are no Mi-35M in russian military they are called Mi-24VM2 or Su-27SM2/3 (Su-35S).

    T-72B2 was already reported to have relikt, most probably not all but some.


    http://xn--80apaboi4ai.xn--p1ai/zashchita-btt/dz-relikt.html

    Комплекс принят на вооружение МО РФ в 2006 году. За разработку комплекса ряд специалистов НИИ Стали в числе прочих разработчиков награждены Премией Правительства РФ

    Nii Stali states Relikt was put into active service in 2006.

    http://www.niistali.ru/security/armor/relict?start=1

    It also says BMPT has relikt and T-72B2/3.

    So yes relikt is in service, but relikt fills this ERA slots of Number 1, the fit in ERA slots not the fully relikt upgrade.


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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Vympel on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:56 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    The russian tank designation actually tells if it has kontakt (ERA) or not, T-72B no ERA, T-72BV (V = Vzriv which means Explosion), even tho in the common soldiers and common people like us we do not use always this exact russian designation, for example there are no Mi-35M in russian military they are called Mi-24VM2 or Su-27SM2/3 (Su-35S).

    That's a misnomer actually - while the T-64, T-80 and T-72A appended "V" to tanks equipped with Kontakts ERA, this was in fact never done with the T-72B. So "T-72BV" doesn't actually officially exist.

    T-72B2 was already reported to have relikt, most probably not all but some.

    Don't think there are any T-72B2s (Rogatka) in service. Never seen one, in any event.

    Nii Stali states Relikt was put into active service in 2006.

    http://www.niistali.ru/security/armor/relict?start=1

    It also says BMPT has relikt and T-72B2/3.

    The NII Stali link? BMPT isn't in Russian Army service, so Relikt can only be considered in service in the countries that have BMPTs (Kazakhstan I believe). Second that article refers to T-72M upgrades - as in their export upgrade options. That's not the same thing as T-72B3.

    Relikt could have been accepted into service (i.e. certified as acceptable by the state) but I've seen no definitive indication that it yet equips a single vehicle in the Russian arsenal. I assumed when Armata tanks appear we'll see it in actual service.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:07 am

    Yes, they took all sorts of T-72Bs, including k-1 equipped ones, for the B3 programme.

    The ERA present is a minor consideration to the otherwise state of the tank anyways.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Vympel on Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:27 am

    TR1 wrote:Yes, they took all sorts of T-72Bs, including k-1 equipped ones, for the B3 programme.

    The ERA present is a minor consideration to the otherwise state of the tank anyways.

    Ah good, thought so. Better to overhaul a T-72B w/Kontakts in good condition as opposed to a T-72B w/Kontakts-V in worse condition I figured.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:20 am

    Some of the speculation I have read about the T-95 suggested they were working on MMW radar and IRST sensors that gave a 24/7 360 degree all weather day/night view around the tank that was linked to certain ERA blocks that were double layered... the idea was that the outer block could be fired manually before an incoming munition hit the tank but the ERA block underneath would still react as an ERA block so the effect was the combination of APS and ERA to defeat incoming threats.

    the fact that they have new APS systems for armata and the other lighter vehicles (Afghanistan and Standard respectively) suggests to me they would likely also have upgraded the ERA too.

    My suspicion is that there is less explosive used and it is designed to be deformed by the incoming projectile to use up its energy on impact while not destroying itself so it can absorb multiple hits.


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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:36 am

    GarryB wrote:My suspicion is that there is less explosive used and it is designed to be deformed by the incoming projectile to use up its energy on impact while not destroying itself so it can absorb multiple hits.

    Garry,

    It should additionally be noted that some of the Russian reactive armor designs use nonexplosives, and some use energetic materials which, in this context, fall somewhere between nonexplosives and explosives.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:44 am

    It should additionally be noted that some of the Russian reactive armor designs use nonexplosives, and some use energetic materials which, in this context, fall somewhere between nonexplosives and explosives.

    Very true, and for several reasons this is important including the lack of a "flying metal plate" as portrayed in western circles that represents a danger to friendly forces.

    Second these deforming plates absorb energy of the penetrator as they deform and can continue to deform with multiple hits to the result of hits on NERA or Non Explosive reactive Armour where it can continue to reduce the effectiveness of multiple hits without requiring replacement.

    This is not new technology... the T-64 had an early form of deforming main armour that reduced the performance of standard penetrators.


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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:44 am

    GarryB wrote:
    My suspicion is that there is less explosive used and it is designed to be deformed by the incoming projectile to use up its energy on impact while not destroying itself so it can absorb multiple hits.

    Sounds like a hybrid ERA/NERA plate, if I had to make a guess how that can be implemented I would say that the hybrid plate would have a charge that wouldn't explode because of penetration but would explode by electronic command. The sensor suite of the tank would have sophisticated radar to determine the danger of a fast flying object to prepare the tank to react and sensitive pressure senors that would set off partial set amounts of ERA. The hybrid plate would actually consist of many tiny micro plates (possibly in a squarish/rectangular or hexagonal pattern) attached to the tanks electronic computing and sensor network, ready to electronically fire off set amounts of ERA.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Vympel on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:01 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Very true, and for several reasons this is important including the lack of a "flying metal plate" as portrayed in western circles that represents a danger to friendly forces.

    Well as far as western sources go, any suggestion that K-5 ERA is dangeorus to nearby friendly forces is totally wrong - the detonation is contianed completely within the "box", there's no shrapnel at all (apart from what the round's impact may ordinarily cause)

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:23 am

    That is actually not true- Fofanov recanted that claim.

    That being said if you are in a position to be hit by the ERA, you are in the line of fire of a serious projectile in any case...life probably isn't going to be too good either way.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:01 pm

    Vympel wrote:
    That's a misnomer actually - while the T-64, T-80 and T-72A appended "V" to tanks equipped with Kontakts ERA, this was in fact never done with the T-72B. So "T-72BV" doesn't actually officially exist.

    You are wrong, grau index is the military designation on paper and they have all designation for everything. T-55 which were equipped with Drozd APS were called T-55AD, T-72,T-72A,T-72AV than came T-72B and T-72BV, T-72B2 which on paper is still T-72BV2. Grau index has designations for absolutley everything to give by latters about the tanks equipment information. There are not a single Su-35 or Mi-35M in russian aviation they are all called Su-27SM2/SM3 and Mi-24VM2. Those are the advertizement designation of Sukhoi company and Mil company to indicate a further upgraded airplane/helicopter. Also T-72M are refered to export variants usually of A/B, the problem with the M comes that westerner really thought this were M like Modernized in Iraq while they were monkey models, downgraded and watered.


    T-90 upper glacis ERA configuration



    BMPT which we know has Relikt armor compare upper glacis ERA



    T-72B2 have this glacis configuration too, but are mostly covered by nakidka.




    Vympel wrote:The NII Stali link? BMPT isn't in Russian Army service, so Relikt can only be considered in service in the countries that have BMPTs (Kazakhstan I believe). Second that article refers to T-72M upgrades - as in their export upgrade options. That's not the same thing as T-72B3.

    Relikt could have been accepted into service (i.e. certified as acceptable by the state) but I've seen no definitive indication that it yet equips a single vehicle in the Russian arsenal. I assumed when Armata tanks appear we'll see it in actual service.

    You completley missed the point, Relikt exists for upgrading T-72B2/3,s T-90MS/AM, BMPT, meaning it doesn't matter if it is T-72 or BMPT Relikt can and is already in service since 2006.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

    Post  Regular on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:05 pm

    TR1 wrote:That is actually not true- Fofanov recanted that claim.

    That being said if you are in a position to be hit by the ERA, you are in the line of fire of a serious projectile in any case...life probably isn't going to be too good either way.

    Standing next to the tank when it's hit by HEAT is not healthy as well. Danger exists, but I believe it to be overblown by armchair experts. Infantry isn't always fighting shoulder to shoulder with tanks, even according Soviet doctrine there should be operational gap of no less than 15 meters between BMP and motostrelki IRC.

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    Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ: Μodernisation and Variants

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      Current date/time is Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:31 am