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    Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

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    GarryB
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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:12 am

    At this point there is no way the Su-35 is half price of the Rafale. If we are talking about an export bird, I would not expect the difference to be much -depends on how much the French try to squeeze out of their customers. RuAF naturally buys the Su-35 at a much cheaper price.

    I would say the Rafales will cost about 150 million while the new Flankers will cost 80 million.

    I still think this whole program was a waste of a decade and enormous amounts of money and Ink.

    They could have said at the time we have Mirage 2000s in service and we have Mig-29s in service and we have lots of other planes like Jaguar and Mig-27. We can upgrade the Mig-29s and the Mirage 2Ks, or we can upgrade one and replace the other or we can replace both with their natural replacements.

    The natural replacement for the Mig-29 is the Mig-35 and the natural replacement for the M2K is the Rafale.

    Instead they wasted a decade... and upgraded their Mig-29s and replaced their M2Ks.

    In buying the Rafale they are now getting a plane that costs 2 times more than their Su-30MKI when they bought them originally. They waste ten years and everything is much more expensive now.


    So in the future we will have 3 air-defense fighters. MiG-35, Su-35, PAK-FA

    In the 1990s when there was no money in Russia they had Mig-29s, Mig-31s, and Su-27s.

    The point is that each is different enough to be useful.

    Add the PAK FA and you have even more flexibility.

    I think there was another issue that French agreed to reinvest 50% i.e. $5B into India while the Russian and American just wanted to do 30%. Technology transfer was also the issue with Russian and much more with Americans. Also, Indians have been crashing lots of Mig-21s and blaming it on Russian equiptment. The truth is they tend to keep birds in bad repair shapes so they will create problems.

    The investment levels were set in the contract AFAIK and that is perfectly normal. I rather doubt there were issues with technology transfer with the Russians and not with the French.

    The problems with the Migs are often to do with buying cheap spare parts from eastern europe and later finding out they are fakes. AFAIK the Indian Mig-21s were made in India, so how can they blame Russia?

    Most airforces in the world that operate Mig-21s love them because they are cheaper to run and simple to maintain.

    Some East European countries give up their Mig-29s before the Mig-21s because the Mig-21 is cheaper to operate.

    I think diversification was the only real reason given for dropping the Mig-35 from the race... it makes the Indian complaints that the Mig-35 didn't make it to AeroIndia in 2010 interesting... perhaps Mig were realising then they didn't have a chance...

    Claiming you want diversity of suppliers is fair enough, but it is not fair enough to make a company go through the expense of running a race they were never going to be allowed to win. I think that is dishonest and very unfair.

    Still this is nothing to do with the Su-34.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  victor7 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:21 am

    Some East European countries give up their Mig-29s before the Mig-21s because the Mig-21 is cheaper to operate.
    [quote]

    Mig-21 Bis is one mean small fighter that packs quite a few suprises.

    Su-35 has been in running with South Koreans but they chose F-15S. Also in running for Brazil but they seem to be looking somewhere else also. Libya had finalized the sales but new developments took over. Venenzuela also have orders for Su-35.

    I have a feeling that Su-35 will go on to become one valuable piece of jet just like Su-30 MKI became. Then choosers of Rafaels, F-35s and EF-Typhoons will surely want to look back and grin in dejection.

    Technologies from Pakfa will sure come handy if they are exportable to Su-35s. Btw, US offered Indians F-35s without technology transfer if they would turn away from Pakfa. Guess with Su-35s giving F35 the run for its trillion dollar money basket with no bottom, Indians will take a wiser decision...........atleast second time around after Rafeal selection.

    GarryB
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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:54 am


    Mig-21 Bis is one mean small fighter that packs quite a few suprises.

    If you want just a cheap little fighter then a Mig-21-98 would be an excellent cheap little fighter with helmet mounted sights and high offboresight digital RVV-MD missiles and ARH RVV-SD AAMs.

    Against ground targets up to 500kg bombs can be carried which would be sufficient for most targets to combined satellite and IIR targeting in the current models you would not need many for most tasks.

    The problem is that being former Warsaw Pact states most have a chip on their shoulder about Russia and the choice to replace their aircraft inventories is more to do with sucking up to the west than any performance issue.

    Most are likely to end up with F-16s of some form or another, which by most criteria are no better than Mig-29s or Mig-21s.

    The irony I see is that they whine and complain about 50 years under the Soviet thumb and when they get their "freedom" the first thing they do is jump into bed with the EU so instead of being dictated to by Moscow they are dictated to by Brussels.

    If their animosity towards Russia really was about the cost of their freedom why did they so quickly give it up to Brussels?

    Su-35 has been in running with South Koreans but they chose F-15S.

    As far as I know a long time ago the Russians offered a Flanker against the F-15E to South Korea and South Korea went for the American plane. This time around the Russians withdrew the offer of the Su-35 because they clearly knew the South Koreans were always going to pick the American option and just wanted an opportunity to take an Su-35 for a spin to test it.

    The problem with the Brazilian and Libyan competitions is just the same as the South Korean competition and that is the political aspect. I don't think the Russians will want to sell anything to Libya now till they know a bit more about the regime. The US and Britain and France didn't bomb the crap out of Libya and then have Gaddafi murdered in the street for fun...

    I would expect quite a few technologies for the PAK FA will be tested and used in the Su-35, though whether such items are exported in the export model Su-35 would be doubtful in my opinion.

    The aircraft India and Russia will develop will likely be based on the Russian T-50 but India might have requirements that change the design in several areas. For instance with full 360 degree thrust vectoring they might decide that the vertical and horizontal tail surfaces should go to reduce drag and RCS.

    The Indians will almost certainly want a two seat model as standard.

    I am looking forward to seeing those Migs on that new Indian carrier.

    Also once Putin is back in charge I hope he rolls back Medvedevs ban on all weapon sales to Iran.

    The Arab Springs have interrupted negotiations with Egypt and Libya and probably cost Russia contracts.

    I would love to see Iran put in an order for 200 Su-35s to replace their F-4s and F-14s, with Iranian production in the contract so Sukhoi could deliver 20 and then the remaining 180 could be assembled in Iran just as a boost to the Iranian defence industry.

    Or they could split the purchase if that is too expensive... perhaps 60 Su-35s and 150 Mig-35s to replace their F-14s and F-4s and existing Mig-29s. The Su-35s could replace both the F-14s and their Su-24s in the strike role.

    They could also buy some air launched Klubs to carry on the Migs and the Flankers in the land attack and the supersonic anti ship versions...

    medo
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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:31 am

    In my opinion for IRIAF around 200 Su-30MKI would be quite enough to replace F-4, F-14 and Su-24 as two seater multirole fighter.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:29 pm

    Or even much cheaper Su-30MKs, but I am trying to save Mig as well... Smile

    An Su-30MK with RVV-SD, RVV-MD and RVV-BD would be a very well armed interceptor.

    Iran has a vested interest in anti stealth technology, as does Russia so working together both countries could benefit from the resulting hardware/knowledge.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:40 pm

    Any info for the next batch of Su-34s?

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:26 pm

    Nothing new. Wait for end of the year, when NAPO makes its deliveries.
    10 airframes are expected.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:33 am


    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2012-03-16/1_zelin.html#


    In this interview Gen. A. Zelin clarify that number of Su-34 in RuAF at 2020 will be 124, with a total of 140 of them expected to enter in service some time after; it will follow a continual open upgrade cycle in those years (therefore, very likely, the SU-34s of various batchs will differ in level of sophistication).

    It appear that, with the next implementation of long range missiles it will become also part of Russian nuclear deterrence forces !!


    Some interesting details on other platforms.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Mig-21 Bis is one mean small fighter that packs quite a few suprises.

    If you want just a cheap little fighter then a Mig-21-98 would be an excellent cheap little fighter with helmet mounted sights and high offboresight digital RVV-MD missiles and ARH RVV-SD AAMs.

    Against ground targets up to 500kg bombs can be carried which would be sufficient for most targets to combined satellite and IIR targeting in the current models you would not need many for most tasks.

    The problem is that being former Warsaw Pact states most have a chip on their shoulder about Russia and the choice to replace their aircraft inventories is more to do with sucking up to the west than any performance issue.

    Most are likely to end up with F-16s of some form or another, which by most criteria are no better than Mig-29s or Mig-21s.

    The irony I see is that they whine and complain about 50 years under the Soviet thumb and when they get their "freedom" the first thing they do is jump into bed with the EU so instead of being dictated to by Moscow they are dictated to by Brussels.

    If their animosity towards Russia really was about the cost of their freedom why did they so quickly give it up to Brussels?

    Su-35 has been in running with South Koreans but they chose F-15S.

    As far as I know a long time ago the Russians offered a Flanker against the F-15E to South Korea and South Korea went for the American plane. This time around the Russians withdrew the offer of the Su-35 because they clearly knew the South Koreans were always going to pick the American option and just wanted an opportunity to take an Su-35 for a spin to test it.

    The problem with the Brazilian and Libyan competitions is just the same as the South Korean competition and that is the political aspect. I don't think the Russians will want to sell anything to Libya now till they know a bit more about the regime. The US and Britain and France didn't bomb the crap out of Libya and then have Gaddafi murdered in the street for fun...

    I would expect quite a few technologies for the PAK FA will be tested and used in the Su-35, though whether such items are exported in the export model Su-35 would be doubtful in my opinion.

    The aircraft India and Russia will develop will likely be based on the Russian T-50 but India might have requirements that change the design in several areas. For instance with full 360 degree thrust vectoring they might decide that the vertical and horizontal tail surfaces should go to reduce drag and RCS.

    The Indians will almost certainly want a two seat model as standard.

    I am looking forward to seeing those Migs on that new Indian carrier.

    Also once Putin is back in charge I hope he rolls back Medvedevs ban on all weapon sales to Iran.

    The Arab Springs have interrupted negotiations with Egypt and Libya and probably cost Russia contracts.

    I would love to see Iran put in an order for 200 Su-35s to replace their F-4s and F-14s, with Iranian production in the contract so Sukhoi could deliver 20 and then the remaining 180 could be assembled in Iran just as a boost to the Iranian defence industry.

    Or they could split the purchase if that is too expensive... perhaps 60 Su-35s and 150 Mig-35s to replace their F-14s and F-4s and existing Mig-29s. The Su-35s could replace both the F-14s and their Su-24s in the strike role.

    They could also buy some air launched Klubs to carry on the Migs and the Flankers in the land attack and the supersonic anti ship versions...

    Iran is probably the best market Russia could have after India because they intend to buy in large scale without technology transfer. The dont have the ability to reverse engineer MIG-29s or F-14s as yet so no need to worry. That stated I see no reason why not to given em technology transfer for MIG-29's (no tech transfer for Su-35E) because what would they do with it? They have alread stated they will be paying a 1 B per squadron. This in addtion to tanks, naval equipment and air defence makes Iran a really untapped export market.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:59 pm

    Su-34 Radar.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:43 am

    Iran is probably the best market Russia could have after India because they intend to buy in large scale without technology transfer.

    But Iran is not a overly rich country either and I really don't see them spending large on weapons any time soon... perhaps if they had spent a bit more in the 1990s the Russians might back them a little more but at the moment it is just potential customer orders for military and civilian nuclear power generation markets they are interested in.

    Iran is not best friends with Russia, but they are not enemies either and I really don't think Russia understands the US/Israeli demonising of Iran... just because they kicked out all the western oil companies and took control themselves... which is pretty much what Russia is doing too.

    Su-34 Radar.

    ...with red protective cover...


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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 22, 2012 10:44 am

    I wonder if the new targeting pod being developed for the PAK FA is the Solluks pod that has been referred to in some articles?

    We know the Su-34 has the built in Platan system and will likely carry a pod mounted targeting pod for certain missions and that there is the French Damocles pod and the Russian Sapsan pod and this Solluks pod that has been mentioned.

    The advantage of pods is that they are easy to update and you don't need too many.

    If you have 200 aircraft then you don't need to buy 200 pods... you could probably get away with 20-40 pods.

    Pods are easier to replace too, in fact you don't replace them you cascade them, so when the 40 pods are no longer top of the line stuff you can buy 20-40 new pods. You don't need to get rid of the older pods... they can be adapted for roles they previously weren't used for.

    Most ground attack missions the digital TV and low light level TV optics and laser target marker/ranger/laser spot seeker allows you to use laser guided bombs and missiles. As QWIP technology progresses you could add this to your inbuilt targeting system to make it more flexible, but you don't want to spend too much because the built in stuff is harder to update and to be useful needs to be fitted to every aircraft because you really don't know which will be available so if you need that capability on every aircraft it needs to be fitted to every aircraft.

    The Platan system on the Su-34 is fairly modest and cheap, but effective for most clear weather use. The aircraft still has night and all weather capability with its radar, but for full capability a really good targeting pod makes all the difference.

    Of course with the radar plus the built in navigation system including GLONASS the Su-34 can scan and find ground targets... use the location of the aircraft and the direction and distance to the target to calculate the targets precise coordinates that can be used with satellite guided bombs and missiles for all weather precision strike without a targeting pod. Something like Damocles however will allow a night and all weather look at the target for positive ID before engagement, and the potential for video of the engagement for confirmation of results so it can be determined if the target was dealt with or another strike needs to be called in.

    Of course with a modern datalink a strike package of 4-8 Su-34s could have one aircraft using radar and one or two others using a damocles or Sapsan or Solluks pod... or all of the above and pass that information to all the aircraft in the group to take out a large number of targets in one pass...

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue May 22, 2012 7:53 pm

    AFAIK Platan does indeed have a thermal channel.

    Actually, I don't get why Platan isn't inherently a better solution than pods- better internal mount + more space + power and cooling potential. Downside is of course limited viewing angles.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 23, 2012 10:14 am

    The information in Russias Arms 2004 says the "Su-32" has an optronic fire control and navigation complex incorporating a data display system, a plotter, and the Platan laser/TV station.

    This suggests to me that Platan is a simple TV/Laser system only.

    It is certainly possible they have incorporated a thermal sight... the technology has moved on and I am sure if it hasn't got a 3rd gen thermal imager included I would expect one would be added in the near future... a QWIP set would be relatively light and eventually very small and compact.

    The completion of the GLONASS system will make the aircraft MUCH more capable as the aircraft becomes a much more accurate data collection system for both moving and stationary targets.

    Actually, I don't get why Platan isn't inherently a better solution than pods- better internal mount + more space + power and cooling potential. Downside is of course limited viewing angles.

    Internal equipment is always available and gives a capability to the entire fleet on every mission they fly.
    Internal also means lower drag.

    External pods can be much more expensive because you don't buy one of one to match the number of aircraft you want to use them on. A Damocles pod for the Su-34 units can be fitted to the Su-35 fleet too.

    More importantly it is easier to upgrade a pod and depending on the pylon it is located on it generally gets a better field of view than most internal systems.

    For the Mig-27K the optics systems were in the radarless nose and got excellent views with low drag, while Platan in the Su-34.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Wed May 23, 2012 4:16 pm

    Platan is one of the most secret peace of equipment on Su-34. All data are about TV/laser range finder/target designator Platan installed on pre-series planes, which flow more than a decade ago. Platan on new serial Su-34 could be different, after all optics become smaller, so there could be enough space to place FLIR camera. After all why would you have additional targeting pod, when you already have the same system integrated in the plane itself. I also wonder how much is improved V004 radar, I doubt it is the same radar as the one in the nineties.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 24, 2012 11:11 am

    I agree that their expertise in thermal imagers has expanded greatly and their expertise in 3rd gen uncooled thermal imagers should enable a very compact and capable system to be added without costing too much.

    The Radar has also benefited from improvements in electronics and radar design, and it wouldn't surprise me if they have greatly improved the Platan.

    However the purpose of the system was to give a standard basic weapon delivery capability that did not require the use of radar, and for optically guided and laser guided weapons it is fine.

    Some targeting pods are more than just thermal imagers and lasers... they have equipment for navigation and datalinks that allow what the pilot sees to be transmitted to ground forces or HQs in real time and with built in sat nav can be used to calculate the precise ground coordinates of fixed things for targeting with sat guided bombs and missiles, and lots of other little tricks.

    With the new C4IR comms and datalinks a single aircraft in a flight of several aircraft can use a single targeting pod on one aircraft to laser range a large group of targets and calculate their positions in 3 dimensions and then pass target data to the other aircraft in the flight including optimum glide paths for the weapons if the target happens to be up a tricky gorge in the mountains. Equally the optical targeting system can be used to engage aerial targets as well...

    Pods are more flexible and cheaper and are easier to upgrade.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Thu May 24, 2012 4:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:I agree that their expertise in thermal imagers has expanded greatly and their expertise in 3rd gen uncooled thermal imagers should enable a very compact and capable system to be added without costing too much.

    The Radar has also benefited from improvements in electronics and radar design, and it wouldn't surprise me if they have greatly improved the Platan.

    However the purpose of the system was to give a standard basic weapon delivery capability that did not require the use of radar, and for optically guided and laser guided weapons it is fine.

    Some targeting pods are more than just thermal imagers and lasers... they have equipment for navigation and datalinks that allow what the pilot sees to be transmitted to ground forces or HQs in real time and with built in sat nav can be used to calculate the precise ground coordinates of fixed things for targeting with sat guided bombs and missiles, and lots of other little tricks.

    With the new C4IR comms and datalinks a single aircraft in a flight of several aircraft can use a single targeting pod on one aircraft to laser range a large group of targets and calculate their positions in 3 dimensions and then pass target data to the other aircraft in the flight including optimum glide paths for the weapons if the target happens to be up a tricky gorge in the mountains. Equally the optical targeting system can be used to engage aerial targets as well...

    Pods are more flexible and cheaper and are easier to upgrade.

    True, but Su-34 have all this equipment build inside the plane, the only thing missing is FLIR camera. Different story is for Su-30 or Su-35, which are fighters first and not dedicated bombers. They could only upgrade Platan with thermal imager and Su-34 doesn't need any pod.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  Sujoy on Mon May 28, 2012 8:39 am





    SU 34 with Pod

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  Sujoy on Mon May 28, 2012 10:26 am

    SAP 14 pod for Su 34


    There is a probability that the Sapsan-E thermal imaging and laser targeting pod will be carried externally, probably on the No 9 ventral inlet station.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 28, 2012 11:08 am

    That is an ESM pod used to detect and locate enemy electronics sources... ie radar and radio emitters.

    Add on pods will always be useful for the Su-34 as it makes them much more flexible and able to perform a range of missions without compromising the design one way or another.

    For instance for a SEAD role the belly mounted ESM pod shown in the post above can be used together with internal electronics and wingtip mounted jamming pods plus a few AAMs for self defence, a few ARMs to attack active radar emitters and a few LGBs and bombs with gliding packages to allow attacks on emitting radars as well as missile sites after their radars have been taken care of.

    The gliding bombs allow standoff attacks against missiles that might have optical alternative guidance options.

    Having a targeting pod as well as the internal Platan EO fire control system means potentially multiple targets could be engaged with laser guided weapons while retaining control of the engagement... for instance that case in Kosovo where the pilot was lasing a bridge and a few seconds before the laser guided bomb hit the bridge a passenger train approached... with a laser guided weapon the pilot could redirect the laser designator to miss by sufficient distance to save the people in the train. With GPS guided weapons there is no such control.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Mon May 28, 2012 5:19 pm

    The central ECM pod is meant to be used as escort jammer like Prowler or Growler. Su-34 with both wingtip ECM pods, central ECM pod, 4 ARMs like Kh-31 or Kh-58 and 4 AAMs is quite effective SEAD/DEAD platform. I wonder if this central ECM pod will be also integrated in Su-30SM and Su-35. Maybe Su-35 will not use it as exclusively air dominance fighter, but Su-30SM could use it, because it is also two sitter and is multirole fighter.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 29, 2012 11:31 am

    The central ECM pod is meant to be used as escort jammer like Prowler or Growler.

    Technically it is an ESM pod in that it would be used to detect enemy emissions and catalogue them before being used with wingtip mounted pods to deceive or jam the emitters. With newer Air Defence systems using sophisticated phased arrays for tracking and guidance you pretty much have to be marked to get a lock with an ARM, though weapons like the Kh-58 that locates the emitter and homes on its location if emissions cease having a precise location is just as important.

    This is just a case of a set of external pods making aircraft more flexible... similar pods have been seen on the Su-30MKK2 AFAIK and would transform a fighter bomber like an Su-30 or Su-35 or Su-34 into a Growler class aircraft without requiring fixed antennas and equipment to be fitted.

    Like targeting pods it makes the aircraft more flexible and cheaper... and it makes upgrades cheaper and easier.

    Maybe Su-35 will not use it as exclusively air dominance fighter, but Su-30SM could use it, because it is also two sitter and is multirole fighter.

    Actually I rather suspect the sophisticated avionics of the Su-35 (almost 5th gen and 5th gen being adapted from the PAK FA) would mean it can perform roles previously only suited to two seat aircraft.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Tue May 29, 2012 4:26 pm

    Actually I rather suspect the sophisticated avionics of the Su-35 (almost 5th gen and 5th gen being adapted from the PAK FA) would mean it can perform roles previously only suited to two seat aircraft.

    True, specially when Su-35 will be exported. But I think Russian air force will use Su-35 as air defense fighter same as PAK FA and not as multirole fighter. I think this could be also a reason behind RuAF decision to buy Su-30SM, which could be used as multirole figher, specially in operations outside Russian air space. I more think Su-35 and PAK FA will do a job of previous air defense fighter aviation.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 30, 2012 9:21 am

    Actually I remember one interview where it was mentioned that the Su-30s were being bought as two seat advanced trainers for the single seat Su-35s.

    The Yak-130 is a very capable trainer, but having a two seat Su-35 would be useful too.

    The cost of developing one would waste time and money however when the Su-30 is available and most importantly in production, so I think it makes a lot of sense.

    I would expect 5th gen avionics to actually work out to be very similar to early flight simulators, where target information is presented to the pilot from a range of sources (the pilot doesn't need to know whether it is a radar contact or an IRST contact or if the target information is from a ground radar).

    I would expect most of the complexity of the mission including fuel and engine management will be taken from the pilot and handled automatically with only critical problems or issues the computers can't solve being brought to the pilots attention. As such the Su-35 and indeed PAK FA should be amongst the easiest planes to fly.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Wed May 30, 2012 5:23 pm



    Black Su-34 armed with longer range R-27 and R-73 AAMs.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 11:33 am


      Current date/time is Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:33 am