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    Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

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    George1
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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:59 pm

    Su-34 serial aircrafts at the bottom of the page

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-8.html


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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:44 pm

    The two seat Su-30 cold be good as a multirole interceptor/strike aircraft with pilot in the front seat and weapons operator in the back either operating the radar looking for aircraft, or using radar or EOs to scan for ground targets to engage.

    From medium altitude it can engage enemy aircraft and enemy ground targets as they appear.

    The Su-30 and Su-30M were operated bu the PVO and were intended as miniawacs aircraft using their large powerful radars to scan for targets that would be engaged by smaller radar silent fighters operating closer to the enemy.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:11 am

    GarryB wrote:The two seat Su-30 cold be good as a multirole interceptor/strike aircraft with pilot in the front seat and weapons operator in the back either operating the radar looking for aircraft, or using radar or EOs to scan for ground targets to engage.

    From medium altitude it can engage enemy aircraft and enemy ground targets as they appear.

    The Su-30 and Su-30M were operated bu the PVO and were intended as miniawacs aircraft using their large powerful radars to scan for targets that would be engaged by smaller radar silent fighters operating closer to the enemy.

    That means that the role of Su-30 in RuAF is different than the role of its counterpart F-15E in USAF

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:45 am

    That means that the role of Su-30 in RuAF is different than the role of its counterpart F-15E in USAF
    [quote]

    I think for now yes. For now the role of F-15E is doing Su-24 and every year it will be more and more in hands of Su-34. Su-30 in RuAF is air defense fighter with air refueling capabilities and two member crew. For now Su-30M2 work with Su-27SM, what means Su-30 is for longer range patroling or for longer time with air refueling.

    We will see what plane will be Su-30SM from Irkutsk, which RuAF also order. I think it will still be more air defense fighter, that could be also used for ground attack role when needed.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:01 pm

    They previously only used the Su-30 within the PVO AFAIK and they had no air to ground capability and were not intended for such a role.

    They have ordered Su-30s, but it is not clear if they intend to use them in the swing role or just use their fighter capabilities.

    When Russia withdrew all its single engine fighters/fighter bombers/light strike aircraft Frontal Aviation lost a lot of bomb carriers. The Su-17/20/22, the Mig-27, the Mig-15, and the Mig-21 and Mig-23 were all used in swing roles where they carried dumb bombs after the enemy air force was cleared from the sky.

    Of course an Su-30MKK with laser guided bombs will be superior in performance to any of those old single engine types in terms of weapons and range and precision.

    I see in the Russian news that they are working on a new CAS aircraft to replace the Su-25 that will be in service in 2020 and will have some stealth characteristics.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    When Russia withdrew all its single engine fighters/fighter bombers/light strike aircraft Frontal Aviation lost a lot of bomb carriers. The Su-17/20/22, the Mig-27, the Mig-15, and the Mig-21 and Mig-23 were all used in swing roles where they carried dumb bombs after the enemy air force was cleared from the sky.


    MiG-35 can be used in swing roles. I think it is the best multirole aircraft in Russian air force. Maybe there is no need to procure a 5th generation light fighter. MiG-35 could do the job and enter the Russian air-force in big numbers without delays as the F-35 in USAF

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:57 pm

    At this point, ordering Su-35 would probably be cheaper.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:19 pm

    The Mig-35 could probably go into production in 2014 and they will probably buy about 50 or 70 in total, and that would be good for Mig as they would get production experience, and be able to test new stuff.

    I really don't think less than 100 Mig-35s will be able to replace the thousands of single engined fighter bombers that they have lost.

    I agree that for now making a 5th gen light fighter doesn't make sense and the question should be looked at again in about 2016 or so with a view to the new aircraft entering service in 2022-2025. At that time they will have PAK FA in service in numbers and most of their legasy aircraft (Mig-29s, Su-27s, Mig-31s) that haven't been upgraded will need to be scrapped and replaced.

    The Su-35, Mig-35, and Su-34 will be formidable support aircraft for the PAK FA, but I also think that by the 2020s that NATO will have more stealth fighters (F-35s) than the number of PAK FAs that Russia could afford could deal with.

    I think the Su-35 will be a very capable opponent for the F-35, and in many areas will be superior, but by 2020 I would hope that Russian aircraft technology will have reached a level where it was ready to make a genuine light 5th gen fighter that is affordable and able to foot it with the best.

    It will be a practical aircraft that while perhaps not cheap to buy will be cheap to operate and effective for all those bomb truck roles you would never risk a PAK FA for.

    A small light 5th gen fighter could be used as a light recon aircraft, precision attack, fighter, jammer... the number of roles it will be able to perform will be broad.

    In many ways it will be a stealthy F-16... in the USAF when F-15C fighters are available the F-16 is a bomb truck. For European AFs that have F-16s as their only fighter it is fighter and bomb truck and everything else.

    At this point, ordering Su-35 would probably be cheaper.

    Not in the long term.

    In most of western Russia most Su-27s operate with 3/4ths empty fuel tanks, which is a bit like using an An-124 to deliver 6 tons of post. For many units a Mig-29 sized aircraft is a more efficient choice, and having an alternative to a Sukhoi fighter is good for competition.

    An official... I think it was Rogozin said recently that competition for the PAK FA now would make Sukhoi work harder and result in a better product. Obviously there is no domestic competition for PAK FA now and there wont be... the Mig light 5th gen fighter will compliment rather than compete.

    It would also make rather more sense using Mig-35s in support of Army units through frontal aviation than to use Su-35s.

    The Mig-35 would be more suited to frontal aviation units than the Su-35, the latter would be more useful for air superiority missions over much larger areas.

    ...BTW it would be cheaper to only buy Mi-28s, but it would not be better.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:39 pm

    Setting up MiG-35 production, modernizing the production line, fixing all the problems with system supplier quantity and quality, would probably cost as much as any deficit in Su-35 vs MIG-35 exploitation costs. Add to that training for yet another type, spares for another type, etc, I still think more Su-35 is easier at this point.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:47 pm

    Easier is not better.

    Sukhoi will be making hundreds of Su-35s and will be tooling up for PAK FAs shortly, so it is going to be pretty busy.

    Mig are making Mig-29Ks, which are quite sophisticated aircraft but not Mig-35s.

    Keep in mind if the Mig-35 is ordered it could potentially beat the PAK FA into service and be the first Russian fighter with an operational AESA radar.

    We are not just talking about Mig... we are talking about the makers of radars for Mig, the makers of engines for Mig aircraft etc etc.

    It will not be a serious burden to have Mig-35s and Su-35s and PAK FAs and Mig-31s all in service at once as each has a niche where they are better than the other options, and there is value in getting the production factories for Mig up to date... in 2020-2025 they will need to have some sort of light fighter... whether it is manned or unmanned we can't tell from this time frame, but from what I have read the Mig 5th gen light fighter is probably the best option.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    In most of western Russia most Su-27s operate with 3/4ths empty fuel tanks, which is a bit like using an An-124 to deliver 6 tons of post. For many units a Mig-29 sized aircraft is a more efficient choice, and having an alternative to a Sukhoi fighter is good for competition.


    GarryB wrote:
    It would also make rather more sense using Mig-35s in support of Army units through frontal aviation than to use Su-35s.

    The Mig-35 would be more suited to frontal aviation units than the Su-35, the latter would be more useful for air superiority missions over much larger areas.

    Where the army units are going to attack in a future conflict ? Caucasus and West Europe. MiG-35 will have to face Typhoons and F-16. I think can do air-defense and attack roles quite successful.

    Even in the East can deal with China's J-10 with no problem.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:Easier is not better.

    Sukhoi will be making hundreds of Su-35s and will be tooling up for PAK FAs shortly, so it is going to be pretty busy.

    Mig are making Mig-29Ks, which are quite sophisticated aircraft but not Mig-35s.

    Keep in mind if the Mig-35 is ordered it could potentially beat the PAK FA into service and be the first Russian fighter with an operational AESA radar.

    We are not just talking about Mig... we are talking about the makers of radars for Mig, the makers of engines for Mig aircraft etc etc.

    It will not be a serious burden to have Mig-35s and Su-35s and PAK FAs and Mig-31s all in service at once as each has a niche where they are better than the other options, and there is value in getting the production factories for Mig up to date... in 2020-2025 they will need to have some sort of light fighter... whether it is manned or unmanned we can't tell from this time frame, but from what I have read the Mig 5th gen light fighter is probably the best option.

    It is better when easier is also cheaper. RuAF has a limited budget, and much to do.

    The only thing IMO the MiG-35 has going for it is 1.) job support 2.) keeping a factory from going down the drain 3.) takes off load from knaapo.
    I don't think it would be cheaper to order MiG-35, but they would be able to start production (hopefully) before the first 48 Su-35s are delivered. I wouldn't actually mind seeing MiG-35 ordered as stop gap to fill up numbers, but I would rather just see more Su-35C. Like I said, I highly suspect any operational advantage would be thrown away by the modernization/ramp up needed to have timely/quality mass production. I don't think it would be difficult to ramp up yearly Su-35 production to ~25 post 2015, if the money and desire for more fighters pre-PAKFA is there.
    Hundreds of Su-35s, Garry are you sure that's not wishful thinking? We will be lucky if RuAF orders more than 100 before 2020. There is of course potential for exports, but it is unlikely to be huge.



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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:04 am

    It is better when easier is also cheaper. RuAF has a limited budget, and much to do.

    Perfectly true, but what makes you think the Mig-35 will cost more than an Su-35?

    I would suggest that unless they only make a dozen or so that the Mig-35 will work out cheaper than the Su-35, and I am pretty sure operational costs will be lower for the smaller aircraft.

    The Mig-35 will also have the advantage of an AESA radar.

    Where the army units are going to attack in a future conflict ? Caucasus and West Europe. MiG-35 will have to face Typhoons and F-16. I think can do air-defense and attack roles quite successful.

    Frontal Aviation operates over the front line... it doesn't matter whether it is attack or defence.

    It wont just operate Mig-35s, it will operate a range of aircraft to control the airspace over the battlefield.

    Hundreds of Su-35s, Garry are you sure that's not wishful thinking?

    How many Flanker export customers are there? Obviously India will want to upgrade via the PAK FA, but other Flanker operators will want Su-35s by 2018... by 2022 or so Russia will likely be ready to export slightly downgraded Su-35s to China... if they order a large enough batch.

    There is value in giving work to Mig, there is value in reducing pressure on Sukhoi production capacity, there is value in retaining competition in fighter companies.

    I think the Mig-35 is the most vastly underrated fighter today... the T-90AM is everything a T-72 could be and I think the Mig-35 is everything the Mig-29 could be.

    I think Sukhois success post cold war has been largely political and that Mig look from the outside to have done the work for little reward.

    The Su-33 is a good example... it is a slightly strengthened Su-27 with folding bits and a tailhook. The Mig-29K was almost a complete redesign of the Mig-29 that was fully multirole from the outset and able to use the latest weapons.

    Eventually Sukhoi came up with the Su-33KUB, but the fact that Mig got the contract for Indian Mig-29Ks meant they were the cheapest option for the Russian Navy too.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:54 pm

    "How many Flanker export customers are there? Obviously India will want to upgrade via the PAK FA, but other Flanker operators will want Su-35s by 2018... by 2022 or so Russia will likely be ready to export slightly downgraded Su-35s to China... if they order a large enough batch."

    Well that is just the issue, because of thr Su-30 success, I don't see Su-35 doing as well. The air forces that operate the more advanced variants, like India and Malaysia, have all signaled intent to upgrade their planes. Getting Su-35 isn't worth it/doesn't make sense for then. We can probably count Algeria in this sense as well. The existing customers that I could see going for Su-35 are one who operate less advanced Su-30s, like Venezuela, or Vietnam. But in those cases they can't afford huge air forces in general, and Su-35 ain't cheap, so they may just got for more upgraded Su-30s.
    China doesn't want the Su-35 at this point (though no doubt they would love to get their hands on several), let alone a downgraded one later this decade.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:36 pm

    Well I am forever the optimist...

    I think as the F-35 gets more expensive and the schedule gets pushed back, and the performance limitations of export models becomes clearer that several Air Forces will look to save a bit of money.

    I would think that for countries buying Su-30s, who are suddenly faced with F-35s in their regions might suddenly decide that an Su-35 that is optimised to hunt stealth aircraft might be a much cheaper option than going full stealth themselves (ie PAK FA).

    I am sure that the US would love to have production facilities of the F-15 still open and able to upgrade it to current and near future levels of technology.

    In fact I would think many in the USAF are getting a bit nervious about buying 3,000 odd F-35s to pretty much replace everything except their F-22s and that new build cheaper 4+ generation aircraft that are proven to be able to do the job would let them sleep better at night.

    If there is only a market for 48 for the Russian AF and perhaps a dozen more for export then there is little point in even bothering to make them.

    Personally I think that they will likely end up with a force that looks something like this:

    200 PAK FA
    96 Su-35s
    96 Su-30s
    48 Mig-29s (C and SMT)
    48 Mig-35s
    120 Mig-31s


    By 2022 they will have a light 5th gen fighter that will replace the Flankers and the Fulcrums and free up some Pak Fas to assist with the aerospace defence role.

    In his recent speeches Putin mentioned the priorities for defence and he said strategic missiles, aerospace defence as number one and number two...

    Based on that I think there might be a version of the PAK FA that is custom designed for the long range interception role, or their might be a dedicated design.

    The fact that they are working on a new CAS design for 2020 suggests that for specific roles they see a value in a customised design.

    I think the interception role requires a separate design from a 5th gen stealth fighter.

    My opinion of course.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  medo on Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:43 am

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120301/171667714.html

    Russian air force ordered 92 more Su-34, so now they have contracts for 124 Su-34 planes.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:22 pm

    medo wrote:http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120301/171667714.html

    Russian air force ordered 92 more Su-34, so now they have contracts for 124 Su-34 planes.

    I was hoping for more by 2020 but I guess thats oke too.

    Becaus if they pull out 70 Su-34 by 2015 by 2020 they intend to produce 54 Su-34 and that a slowdown, I wonder why.

    On the other hand there might be more fresh orders by 2020.

    I wonder what are this new weapons they keep saying all the time.

    “Work is continuing to integrate modern air-to-surface weaponry now in development in Russia on the Su-34, with trials being carried out at the air force test center at Akhtubinsk.”

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:27 pm

    I think the 70 by 2015 is optimism at best. 32 is the number expected by the end of 2013. So 2 more years, 38 airframes? Big boost over current rate, not sure it will happen.

    124 through 2020 is achievable though, around 13 yearly.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:45 pm

    TR1 wrote:I think the 70 by 2015 is optimism at best. 32 is the number expected by the end of 2013. So 2 more years, 38 airframes? Big boost over current rate, not sure it will happen.

    124 through 2020 is achievable though, around 13 yearly.

    Well 70 is optimistic yes but still last year Russia produced 6 of them and
    this year intends to produce 10 witch is almost 70% increase in comparison with 2011 Very Happy

    Now if they keep on rolling with such pace ... LOL

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:03 pm

    Larger orders means they have larger money injections, which means they can save money by buying materials in larger batches.

    They have produced a few aircraft now and should be getting better at making these aircraft through improving and refining the production method.

    I would think the pressure on producing lots of Su-34s is reduced because the PAK FA and Su-35 will have air to ground capabilities.

    Keep in mind the previous aircraft structure was Mig-29s, Su-27s, Mig-31s, and lots of single engine fighters like Mig-23, Mig-21, Su-17, Su-24 and Mig-27.

    Most are single role aircraft that specialised in a particular role, while others had very basic swing capabilities... which mainly meant the fighters like the Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-29, and Su-27 could carry dumb bombs when the enemy airpower had been defeated or didn't exist.

    The Su-27, Mig-29, and Mig-31, Mig-23, and Mig-21 were pretty much fighters and interceptors only, while the Su-17, Su-24 and Mig-27 being ground attack only with minor self defence capability.

    Even the Mig-35 is better than any of the previous generation aircraft with its AESA radar and 11 weapon stations ablet to carry sophisticated and capable weapons in the air to air and air to ground role.

    With the Pak fa and Su-35 and perhaps Mig-35 all packing punches in air to air and also very very capable air to ground capability the need to replace the Su-24s on a one for one bases no longer exists.

    I would expect an eventual fleet of 150-200 Su-34s will be quite capable of doing its job.

    In fact 192 aircraft would be an ideal number for the 4 military districts as that means 48 aircraft each.

    And I realise the previous generation could have been much more capable than they were if they had had upgrades and more importantly sophisticated weapons actually put into service in numbers so they mattered... that is only just happening now.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  victor7 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:14 pm

    Due to India selecting Rafale as for their MRMA, it might be possible that RuAF may not get its hands on Mig-35. It is the cost factor as 126 for India would have resulted in production lines already set up and paid for and then Mig-35s would have come in relatively cheaper for RuAF. Unless some other country orders them, RuAF might have to add up more Su-35s instead of Migs. More so, because Su-35 is a near match vis-a-vis F-35 so may be a better option.

    Two reasons Indians went for Rafaele were (I think) very low RCS and complete technology transfer agreement. But then planes like Mig-35 and Su-35 are nearly half the price of Rafeale and all the 3 qualify for 4+++ planes. I think Su-35 is the best among these but may be because of Su30MKI in their inventory, Indians wanted some diversification and stealth features.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:10 pm

    Stealth was not part of the requirement for the competition.

    Personally I disagree with their choice.

    They seem to think that diversification of aircraft leads to more capabilities.

    Personally I think it will more likely lead to extra cost for no real tangible gain.

    I could understand diversifying away from someone who has a history of being unreliable like the US or UK, but any problems with Russian equipment could be dealt with.

    AFAIK money for the Mig-35 is in the GVP-2020.

    The recent order of Mig-29Ks will be good for Mig anyway, but I think the Indians have shot themselves in the foot.

    Money invested in the Mig-35 would create upgrade paths for their 62 odd Mig-29s still in service and of course could also be applied to their Mig-29Ks.

    If Mig is left starving and stunted through lack of business then the Indian Navy just bought some white elephants, and the Indian AF is throwing good money after bad with their UPG upgrades.

    Instead they are spending an enormous amount of money on a totally new aircraft type, and for what?

    Dubious stealth?

    The radars of old model Pakistani F-16s will have no trouble detecting and tracking armed Rafales at normal ranges.

    It would have been cheaper to buy just buy another 120 Su-30MKIs.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:33 am

    At this point there is no way the Su-35 is half price of the Rafale. If we are talking about an export bird, I would not expect the difference to be much -depends on how much the French try to squeeze out of their customers. RuAF naturally buys the Su-35 at a much cheaper price.

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:22 am

    So in the future we will have 3 air-defense fighters. MiG-35, Su-35, PAK-FA

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    Re: Su-34 Tactical Bomber: News

    Post  victor7 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:30 pm

    I think there was another issue that French agreed to reinvest 50% i.e. $5B into India while the Russian and American just wanted to do 30%. Technology transfer was also the issue with Russian and much more with Americans. Also, Indians have been crashing lots of Mig-21s and blaming it on Russian equiptment. The truth is they tend to keep birds in bad repair shapes so they will create problems.

    The last issue according to one site was Indians wanted to diversify their political chips into Europe. They are doing $35B project with Russia on Pakfa, they bought $5B and more of C130 Globestars from US and also some helicopters. So West Europe is where the third chip falls.

    Reading from Stratrisk.com, India need not worry about Pak any more. It is China that they might have problems. And when China is involved then 90% Pak will try to take some liberties. Btw, Stratfor.com is open for all these days i.e. no subscription required. Some good articles and forecasts for reading.


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